Challenging the church

[violencia.Proletariat]

ROME, Italy (AP) -- Lawyers for a small-town parish priest have been ordered to appear in court next week after the Roman Catholic cleric was accused of unlawfully asserting what many people take for granted: that Jesus Christ existed.

The Rev. Enrico Righi was named in a 2002 complaint filed by Luigi Cascioli after Righi wrote in a parish bulletin that Jesus did indeed exist, and that he was born of a couple named Mary and Joseph in Bethlehem and lived in Nazareth.

Cascioli, a lifelong atheist, claims that Righi violated two Italian laws by making the assertion: so-called "abuse of popular belief" in which someone fraudulently deceives people; and "impersonation" in which someone gains by attributing a false name to someone.

Cascioli says that for 2,000 years the Roman Catholic Church has been deceiving people by furthering the fable that Christ existed, and says the church has been gaining financially by "impersonating" as Christ someone by the name of John of Gamala, the son of Judas from Gamala.


Source:http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/01/22/christ.book.ap/index.html


Finally! :D

[Hegemonicretribution]

Fantastic. 10 years ago these sort of cases would never have been picked up on, but this sort of thing is becoming more common. Remember "The man that sued God?" Finally atheism is more than mainstream.

Perhaps there should be a thread in practice for this, I think all of us could unite in sueing the Catholic church. Even the religious members can't really justify supporting such an agency, religion may or may not be inherently reactionary, but this church in particular is.

[Clarksist]

He should have just burned a plastic baby Jesus model (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=44738).

It's much more entertaining, costs less, and besides everyone knows this case won't go anywhere.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 10:10 PM
He should have just burned a plastic baby Jesus model (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=44738).

It's much more entertaining, costs less, and besides everyone knows this case won't go anywhere.
Dont expect it to but this debate needs to become very PUBLIC and vert COMMON. It's especially good that it emerged from one of the centers of this reactionary institution.

[C_Rasmussen]

Thats fucking assanine. Suing the Church for their beliefs? The Hell is this world coming to when people get sued for what they believe to be true? Sounds rather fascist if you ask me <_<.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 04:15 PM
Thats fucking assanine. Suing the Church for their beliefs? The Hell is this world coming to when people get sued for what they believe to be true? Sounds rather fascist if you ask me <_<.
The church lies, steals peoples money on a false premise. They deserve every action taken against them. You act as if the Catholic Church is some basement gathering.

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by nate+Jan 23 2006, 02:35 PM--> (nate @ Jan 23 2006, 02:35 PM)
[email protected] 23 2006, 04:15 PM
Thats fucking assanine. Suing the Church for their beliefs? The Hell is this world coming to when people get sued for what they believe to be true? Sounds rather fascist if you ask me <_<.
The church lies, steals peoples money on a false premise. They deserve every action taken against them. You act as if the Catholic Church is some basement gathering. [/b]
FYI Nate, they dont "steal" people&#39;s money. Thats for building upkeep, bills, and such. They dont lie but then again its a lie if you believe in it or not.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by C_Rasmussen+Jan 23 2006, 04:39 PM--> (C_Rasmussen @ Jan 23 2006, 04:39 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 02:35 PM

[email protected] 23 2006, 04:15 PM
Thats fucking assanine. Suing the Church for their beliefs? The Hell is this world coming to when people get sued for what they believe to be true? Sounds rather fascist if you ask me <_<.
The church lies, steals peoples money on a false premise. They deserve every action taken against them. You act as if the Catholic Church is some basement gathering.
FYI Nate, they dont "steal" people&#39;s money. Thats for building upkeep, bills, and such. They dont lie but then again its a lie if you believe in it or not. [/b]
Well they do steal peoples money, they claim to be the house of jesus blah blah blah. They take peoples money under that context to make their buildings fancy, etc. But that context is a lie, therfore they are scam artists.

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by nate+Jan 23 2006, 02:52 PM--> (nate @ Jan 23 2006, 02:52 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 02:35 PM

[email protected] 23 2006, 04:15 PM
Thats fucking assanine. Suing the Church for their beliefs? The Hell is this world coming to when people get sued for what they believe to be true? Sounds rather fascist if you ask me <_<.
The church lies, steals peoples money on a false premise. They deserve every action taken against them. You act as if the Catholic Church is some basement gathering.
FYI Nate, they dont "steal" people&#39;s money. Thats for building upkeep, bills, and such. They dont lie but then again its a lie if you believe in it or not.
Well they do steal peoples money, they claim to be the house of jesus blah blah blah. They take peoples money under that context to make their buildings fancy, etc. But that context is a lie, therfore they are scam artists. [/b]
No they&#39;re not stealing people&#39;s money. Its the congregation&#39;s choice to give. The people at mass give willingly. It would be theft if they pointed a gun at someone during the Church service and FORCED them to give the money but thats not the case therefore its not stealing as you like to think.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by C_Rasmussen+Jan 23 2006, 04:54 PM--> (C_Rasmussen @ Jan 23 2006, 04:54 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 02:35 PM

[email protected] 23 2006, 04:15 PM
Thats fucking assanine. Suing the Church for their beliefs? The Hell is this world coming to when people get sued for what they believe to be true? Sounds rather fascist if you ask me <_<.
The church lies, steals peoples money on a false premise. They deserve every action taken against them. You act as if the Catholic Church is some basement gathering.
FYI Nate, they dont "steal" people&#39;s money. Thats for building upkeep, bills, and such. They dont lie but then again its a lie if you believe in it or not.
Well they do steal peoples money, they claim to be the house of jesus blah blah blah. They take peoples money under that context to make their buildings fancy, etc. But that context is a lie, therfore they are scam artists.
No they&#39;re not stealing people&#39;s money. Its the congregation&#39;s choice to give. The people at mass give willingly. It would be theft if they pointed a gun at someone during the Church service and FORCED them to give the money but thats not the case therefore its not stealing as you like to think. [/b]
It is stealing, the church goers and not being delivered what they are promised. The Catholic Church is a scam&#33; It would be the same as me selling you a cure for cancer except you had to come buy it every sunday for the rest of your life, and yet you still get cancer and die. Not only that but through indoctriniation the priests secure their profit from the younger generation. Not only do they steal cash, they steal healthy minds :o

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by nate+Jan 23 2006, 03:03 PM--> (nate @ Jan 23 2006, 03:03 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 02:35 PM

[email protected] 23 2006, 04:15 PM
Thats fucking assanine. Suing the Church for their beliefs? The Hell is this world coming to when people get sued for what they believe to be true? Sounds rather fascist if you ask me <_<.
The church lies, steals peoples money on a false premise. They deserve every action taken against them. You act as if the Catholic Church is some basement gathering.
FYI Nate, they dont "steal" people&#39;s money. Thats for building upkeep, bills, and such. They dont lie but then again its a lie if you believe in it or not.
Well they do steal peoples money, they claim to be the house of jesus blah blah blah. They take peoples money under that context to make their buildings fancy, etc. But that context is a lie, therfore they are scam artists.
No they&#39;re not stealing people&#39;s money. Its the congregation&#39;s choice to give. The people at mass give willingly. It would be theft if they pointed a gun at someone during the Church service and FORCED them to give the money but thats not the case therefore its not stealing as you like to think.
It is stealing, the church goers and not being delivered what they are promised. The Catholic Church is a scam&#33; It would be the same as me selling you a cure for cancer except you had to come buy it every sunday for the rest of your life, and yet you still get cancer and die. Not only that but through indoctriniation the priests secure their profit from the younger generation. Not only do they steal cash, they steal healthy minds :o [/b]
Now you&#39;re being paranoid Nate. Its the person&#39;s CHOICE to go to Church on Sundays (or Saturday nights in some cases). Yes they ARE being delivered what they&#39;re promised. That promise to them is the comfort of knowing, for them, that theres an afterlife. Its the comfort of knowing that God exists. People go to Church because as stated before they want to and because its their choice to go. If they didn&#39;t want to then they wouldn&#39;t go.

[Orthodox Marxist]

Yes I read this article in the toronto sun yesterday well done

[violencia.Proletariat]

Now you&#39;re being paranoid Nate. Its the person&#39;s CHOICE to go to Church on Sundays (or Saturday nights in some cases).

Yes I&#39;m sure those children had a choice in that decision :rolleyes:


Yes they ARE being delivered what they&#39;re promised. That promise to them is the comfort of knowing, for them, that theres an afterlife.

They cant prove that. Nor can they prove they represent Christ or what Christ did or anything to do with the fairy tale.


Its the comfort of knowing that God exists. People go to Church because as stated before they want to and because its their choice to go. If they didn&#39;t want to then they wouldn&#39;t go.

Most people go to church because they were indoctrinized from a young age. They have also been denied rationality in school, but this is starting to crumble. More kids are telling their parents to fuck off instead of yes sir when the issue comes up. :D

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 03:23 PM

Now you&#39;re being paranoid Nate. Its the person&#39;s CHOICE to go to Church on Sundays (or Saturday nights in some cases).

Yes I&#39;m sure those children had a choice in that decision :rolleyes:


Yes they ARE being delivered what they&#39;re promised. That promise to them is the comfort of knowing, for them, that theres an afterlife.

They cant prove that. Nor can they prove they represent Christ or what Christ did or anything to do with the fairy tale.


Its the comfort of knowing that God exists. People go to Church because as stated before they want to and because its their choice to go. If they didn&#39;t want to then they wouldn&#39;t go.

Most people go to church because they were indoctrinized from a young age. They have also been denied rationality in school, but this is starting to crumble. More kids are telling their parents to fuck off instead of yes sir when the issue comes up. :D
When they get old enough they can think for themselves <_<

Let them believe what they want so long as they dont act negatively on their beliefs.

Keep in mind that people can think for themselves when they get old enough. I can&#39;t blame the kids who tell their parents to fuck off though when the parents become overbearing about it so I&#39;ll give ya that one.

[LSD]

Let them believe what they want so long as they dont act negatively on their beliefs.

It&#39;s not a matter of them "believing", it&#39;s a matter of them being actively deceived.

If a "doctor" promised a cure to cancer through eating bananas, he would be slapped down before you could say "Kevin Trudeau".

How is the Catholic Church&#39;s promise of "eternal salvation" any different?

The Vatican, per capita, is the richest state on earth, with offices and branches throughout the world. It has nearly a billion suckers, most of them poor, giving up their hard-earned, desperately-needed money because they have been falsely promised "respite" from their hellish existances.

I can hardly imagine a more disgusting scam. :angry:

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 03:45 PM

Let them believe what they want so long as they dont act negatively on their beliefs.

It&#39;s not a matter of them "believing", it&#39;s a matter of them being actively deceived.

If a "doctor" promised a cure to cancer through eating bananas, he would be slapped down before you could say "Kevin Trudeau".

How is the Catholic Church&#39;s promise of "eternal salvation" any different?

The Vatican, per capita, is the richest state on earth, with offices and branches throughout the world. It has nearly a billion suckers, most of them poor, giving up their hard-earned, desperately-needed money because they have been falsely promised "respite" from their hellish existances.

I can hardly imagine a more disgusting scam. :angry:
In this instance you&#39;re WAY too comforted in thinking that there&#39;s no God. From the posts I&#39;ve seen from you I&#39;ve noticed that. Keep in mind LSD that they&#39;re not FORCED to give up their money. Nor are they scammed, conned, or anything else of that nature. Its 100% their doing.

[LSD]

In this instance you&#39;re WAY too comforted in thinking that there&#39;s no God.

I&#39;m not "comforted" at all.

I am merely making the most rational analysis I can and acting accordingly. Really, what other option do I have?

"Tolerance"? :lol:

"Accept" that everyone has a "right to their beliefs" and passively allow them to be scammed and exploited by greedy thieves and "holy men"?

When Enron executives promise their investors false returns, they&#39;re called criminals; when the priests promise their parishoners false "salvation", they&#39;re called "holy".

It&#39;s got to stop.


Keep in mind LSD that they&#39;re not FORCED to give up their money.

And neither are victims of pyramid schemes; does this mean that they are any less wronged?

The Catholic Church does not have a physical gun to point at people&#39;s heads (not anymore at least), but they certainly do have some rather brutal means of "persuasion".

The Church tells its parishoners that if they fail to attend service and support their Church, "God" will "strike them down". He will "spit them from his mouth" and "burn them in hell"&#33; :o

"Eternal hellfires" is a pretty good motivating force&#33;

Now if these people truly believe as strongly as you claim they do, then they are, in effect, being threatened with torture. Most of these people have been indoctrinated since youth and many genuinely believe that if they fail to pay, they will be "divinely punished".

Even for those who are Catholic "only in name", the social pressure of these places is enormous.

When the pastor comes by with his big bag of "donations", anyone who fails to deposit a sufficiently large sum is loudly shunned and ostracized.

Threats, false promises, and social control; all the hallmarks of organized crime.

hmm... maybe you&#39;re right, maybe this isn&#39;t a matter for "civil litigation"; perhaps we should call in the FBI instead&#33; :lol:

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 04:13 PM

In this instance you&#39;re WAY too comforted in thinking that there&#39;s no God.

I&#39;m not "comforted" at all.

I am merely making the most rational analysis I can and acting accordingly. Really, what other option do I have?

"Tolerance"? :lol:

"Accept" that everyone has a "right to their beliefs" and passively allow them to be scammed and exploited by greedy thieves and "holy men"?

When Enron executives promise their investors false returns, they&#39;re called criminals; when the priests promise their parishoners false "salvation", they&#39;re called "holy".

It&#39;s got to stop.


Keep in mind LSD that they&#39;re not FORCED to give up their money.

And neither are victims of pyramid schemes; does this mean that they are any less wronged?

The Catholic Church does not have a physical gun to point at people&#39;s heads (not anymore at least), but they certainly do have some rather brutal means of "persuasion".

The Church tells its parishoners that if they fail to attend service and support their Church, "God" will "strike them down". He will "spit them from his mouth" and "burn them in hell"&#33; :o

"Eternal hellfires" is a pretty good motivating force&#33;

Now if these people truly believe as strongly as you claim they do, then they are, in effect, being threatened with torture. Most of these people have been indoctrinated since youth and many genuinely believe that if they fail to pay, they will be "divinely punished".

Even for those who are Catholic "only in name", the social pressure of these places is enormous.

When the pastor comes by with his big bag of "donations", anyone who fails to deposit a sufficiently large sum is loudly shunned and ostracized.

Threats, false promises, and social control; all the hallmarks of organized crime.

hmm... maybe you&#39;re right, maybe this isn&#39;t a matter for "civil litigation"; perhaps we should call in the FBI instead&#33; :lol:
At least keep an open mind to the possibility of God existing. I&#39;m not saying "believe in Him or you&#39;ll burn" and I&#39;m not saying that you have to read religious text all the time but I&#39;m just mentioning to keep and open mind about the existance.

Now I think you&#39;re exaggerating a bit here about the Church. I go weekly and I give money RARELY and they dont look down on me when I dont put in. They aren&#39;t like that anymore. At least around here they arent. The Church has actually lightened up a bit over the years as compared to what you stated earlier.

Now you really are exaggerating by calling it organized crime.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by C_Rasmussen+Jan 23 2006, 06:29 PM--> (C_Rasmussen @ Jan 23 2006, 06:29 PM)
[email protected] 23 2006, 04:13 PM

In this instance you&#39;re WAY too comforted in thinking that there&#39;s no God.

I&#39;m not "comforted" at all.

I am merely making the most rational analysis I can and acting accordingly. Really, what other option do I have?

"Tolerance"? :lol:

"Accept" that everyone has a "right to their beliefs" and passively allow them to be scammed and exploited by greedy thieves and "holy men"?

When Enron executives promise their investors false returns, they&#39;re called criminals; when the priests promise their parishoners false "salvation", they&#39;re called "holy".

It&#39;s got to stop.


Keep in mind LSD that they&#39;re not FORCED to give up their money.

And neither are victims of pyramid schemes; does this mean that they are any less wronged?

The Catholic Church does not have a physical gun to point at people&#39;s heads (not anymore at least), but they certainly do have some rather brutal means of "persuasion".

The Church tells its parishoners that if they fail to attend service and support their Church, "God" will "strike them down". He will "spit them from his mouth" and "burn them in hell"&#33; :o

"Eternal hellfires" is a pretty good motivating force&#33;

Now if these people truly believe as strongly as you claim they do, then they are, in effect, being threatened with torture. Most of these people have been indoctrinated since youth and many genuinely believe that if they fail to pay, they will be "divinely punished".

Even for those who are Catholic "only in name", the social pressure of these places is enormous.

When the pastor comes by with his big bag of "donations", anyone who fails to deposit a sufficiently large sum is loudly shunned and ostracized.

Threats, false promises, and social control; all the hallmarks of organized crime.

hmm... maybe you&#39;re right, maybe this isn&#39;t a matter for "civil litigation"; perhaps we should call in the FBI instead&#33; :lol:
[/b]

At least keep an open mind to the possibility of God existing. I&#39;m not saying "believe in Him or you&#39;ll burn" and I&#39;m not saying that you have to read religious text all the time but I&#39;m just mentioning to keep and open mind about the existance.

If one keeps an open mind on the question they will see that all answers point to the conclusion that there is no god. There is not any evidence of god. Now keeping an open mind, we see the first side(those who believe) have no evidence just faith, the second side (we godless people) say there is no god. Since the first has no proof it is only logical to accept the second.

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by nate+Jan 23 2006, 05:10 PM--> (nate @ Jan 23 2006, 05:10 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 06:29 PM

[email protected] 23 2006, 04:13 PM

In this instance you&#39;re WAY too comforted in thinking that there&#39;s no God.

I&#39;m not "comforted" at all.

I am merely making the most rational analysis I can and acting accordingly. Really, what other option do I have?

"Tolerance"? :lol:

"Accept" that everyone has a "right to their beliefs" and passively allow them to be scammed and exploited by greedy thieves and "holy men"?

When Enron executives promise their investors false returns, they&#39;re called criminals; when the priests promise their parishoners false "salvation", they&#39;re called "holy".

It&#39;s got to stop.


Keep in mind LSD that they&#39;re not FORCED to give up their money.

And neither are victims of pyramid schemes; does this mean that they are any less wronged?

The Catholic Church does not have a physical gun to point at people&#39;s heads (not anymore at least), but they certainly do have some rather brutal means of "persuasion".

The Church tells its parishoners that if they fail to attend service and support their Church, "God" will "strike them down". He will "spit them from his mouth" and "burn them in hell"&#33; :o

"Eternal hellfires" is a pretty good motivating force&#33;

Now if these people truly believe as strongly as you claim they do, then they are, in effect, being threatened with torture. Most of these people have been indoctrinated since youth and many genuinely believe that if they fail to pay, they will be "divinely punished".

Even for those who are Catholic "only in name", the social pressure of these places is enormous.

When the pastor comes by with his big bag of "donations", anyone who fails to deposit a sufficiently large sum is loudly shunned and ostracized.

Threats, false promises, and social control; all the hallmarks of organized crime.

hmm... maybe you&#39;re right, maybe this isn&#39;t a matter for "civil litigation"; perhaps we should call in the FBI instead&#33; :lol:


At least keep an open mind to the possibility of God existing. I&#39;m not saying "believe in Him or you&#39;ll burn" and I&#39;m not saying that you have to read religious text all the time but I&#39;m just mentioning to keep and open mind about the existance.

If one keeps an open mind on the question they will see that all answers point to the conclusion that there is no god. There is not any evidence of god. Now keeping an open mind, we see the first side(those who believe) have no evidence just faith, the second side (we godless people) say there is no god. Since the first has no proof it is only logical to accept the second. [/b]
Thing is neither you nor I nor anyone else can prove, disprove, w/e the existance of God. I guess we just have to wait until we die to figure that out.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by C_Rasmussen
Thing is neither you nor I nor anyone else can prove, disprove, w/e the existance of God. I guess we just have to wait until we die to figure that out.

Or, you can just use your brain.

It&#39;s there for a reason.

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Comrade RAF+Jan 23 2006, 05:40 PM--> (Comrade RAF @ Jan 23 2006, 05:40 PM)
C_Rasmussen
Thing is neither you nor I nor anyone else can prove, disprove, w/e the existance of God. I guess we just have to wait until we die to figure that out.

Or, you can just use your brain.

It&#39;s there for a reason. [/b]
Or that was just a really stupid comment.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by C_Rassmussen
At least keep an open mind to the possibility of God existing. I&#39;m not saying "believe in Him or you&#39;ll burn" and I&#39;m not saying that you have to read religious text all the time but I&#39;m just mentioning to keep and open mind about the existance.

Perhaps we should also keep an "open mind" about the possibilty of trolls existing; that would most definitely ensure a place for you in the revolution.

Unfortunately those wearing straight jackets will hardly be of any use.

Unless of course you decide to entertain us by attempting to scratch your nuts by scooting around on the floor. (Thanks of course to Cheech Marin and the 1981 smash box office hit "Nice Dreams")


I go weekly [to "church"]

Why precisely are you even here? Those whom can be so easily conned into the defense of fantasy and butchery are, to put it in a nice way, "unsuitible" for our cause.

[kurt]

At least keep an open mind to the possibility of God existing. I&#39;m not saying "believe in Him or you&#39;ll burn" and I&#39;m not saying that you have to read religious text all the time but I&#39;m just mentioning to keep and open mind about the existance.
I keep an open mind to reasonable arguments for anything. If there is nothing reasonable to be said about a certain position, I "close" my mind so to speak.


Thing is neither you nor I nor anyone else can prove, disprove, w/e the existance of God. I guess we just have to wait until we die to figure that out.
This is extremely weak.

If you&#39;re going to attempt to enter a debate with rational people, you&#39;re going to have to do considerably better than simply claiming we can&#39;t disprove your opinion. When you make a positive assertion the onus is on you to provide evidence. You have none, therefore your position is not worth even considering.

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Comrade RAF+Jan 23 2006, 10:06 PM--> (Comrade RAF @ Jan 23 2006, 10:06 PM)
C_Rassmussen
At least keep an open mind to the possibility of God existing. I&#39;m not saying "believe in Him or you&#39;ll burn" and I&#39;m not saying that you have to read religious text all the time but I&#39;m just mentioning to keep and open mind about the existance.

Perhaps we should also keep an "open mind" about the possibilty of trolls existing; that would most definitely ensure a place for you in the revolution.

Unfortunately those wearing straight jackets will hardly be of any use.

Unless of course you decide to entertain us by attempting to scratch your nuts by scooting around on the floor. (Thanks of course to Cheech Marin and the 1981 smash box office hit "Nice Dreams")


I go weekly [to "church"]

Why precisely are you even here? Those whom can be so easily conned into the defense of fantasy and butchery are, to put it in a nice way, "unsuitible" for our cause. [/b]
Yeah you&#39;re real fucking funny aren&#39;t ya? <_< Quit trying your fucking condescending shit. You surely aren&#39;t one to say if I&#39;m to be here or not. I&#39;m not crazy either like you&#39;d like to think. Just because I dont think like you doesn&#39;t mean that I&#39;m nuts. Techically you&#39;re the one being the troll.

Kurt: I would like to see proof that God doesnt&#39; exist. Dont even start this shit about this onus being on me. How about you start giving me examples. I&#39;ll look at any links you provide me. I do respect your post more than Comrade RAF&#39;s because at least you&#39;re not being immature about what you said.

[KC]

Kurt: I would like to see proof that God doesnt&#39; exist. Dont even start this shit about this onus being on me. How about you start giving me examples. I&#39;ll look at any links you provide me. I do respect your post more than Comrade RAF&#39;s because at least you&#39;re not being immature about what you said.


Who has the burden of proof? (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=45457)

[C_Rasmussen]

I&#39;m currently looking at these links and will get back to you when I am finished reading them.

EDIT

Read them. Not only dont they provide even the slightest of proof that God doesnt&#39; exist but they&#39;re bias as well. How about someone just give me a link or something to prove that God doesnt&#39; exist.

[KC]

Read them. Not only dont they provide even the slightest of proof that God doesnt&#39; exist but they&#39;re bias as well. How about someone just give me a link or something to prove that God doesnt&#39; exist.

If you didn&#39;t notice, they are about who has the burden of proof in this argument. I even threw in some unbiased sources that don&#39;t even talk about the atheist vs. theist debate. It is very easy to understand here that the burden of proof lies on you, the theist, to prove that god exists. I listed numerous sources that proves this (and could get more if you really wanted more). Where are your sources?

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by c_Rassmussen
Yeah you&#39;re real fucking funny aren&#39;t ya? dry.gif Quit trying your fucking condescending shit. You surely aren&#39;t one to say if I&#39;m to be here or not. I&#39;m not crazy either like you&#39;d like to think. Just because I dont think like you doesn&#39;t mean that I&#39;m nuts. Techically you&#39;re the one being the troll.

Whew&#33; I know several good psychiatrists that can quite easily prescribe something to control your nonsensical ravings; PM me for information.

Now, try to focus here: why exactly are you even here?

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 01:38 AM
Kurt: I would like to see proof that God doesnt&#39; exist. Dont even start this shit about this onus being on me. How about you start giving me examples. I&#39;ll look at any links you provide me. I do respect your post more than Comrade RAF&#39;s because at least you&#39;re not being immature about what you said.
This is hardly the thread to start a "god does(n&#39;t) exist thread." Why don&#39;t you do a search and pick up on the version that most appeals to you; just don&#39;t hijack this thread (further).

Hi RAF, I thought you were dead... anyway, I&#39;d tell you to be careful about the flaming but this is LSD&#39;s forum and I generally agree with the content. Brainwashing people from birth to give you money, hmm; who could get away with that?

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Comrade RAF+Jan 25 2006, 12:14 PM--> (Comrade RAF @ Jan 25 2006, 12:14 PM)
c_Rassmussen
Yeah you&#39;re real fucking funny aren&#39;t ya? dry.gif Quit trying your fucking condescending shit. You surely aren&#39;t one to say if I&#39;m to be here or not. I&#39;m not crazy either like you&#39;d like to think. Just because I dont think like you doesn&#39;t mean that I&#39;m nuts. Techically you&#39;re the one being the troll.

Whew&#33; I know several good psychiatrists that can quite easily prescribe something to control your nonsensical ravings; PM me for information.

Now, try to focus here: why exactly are you even here? [/b]
Fine I&#39;ll be the mature on in this and not flame. I&#39;m here because I certainly hate the fucking capitalist society just like you and others that joined here. Just because I believe in God doesn&#39;t make me crazy or a bad person. Quit being so childish to someone that you dont agree with.

313C7 iVi4RX: I&#39;ll do myself a search on here and&#39;ll quit with the further degradation of this thread.

[Martyr]

So now religion is brainwashing people?

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 01:33 PM
So now religion is brainwashing people?
Nothing recent, ever since the beggining

[Martyr]

And the people who follow it are slaves becase they are forced to follow religion and its dogmas right?

[red team]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 09:53 PM
And the people who follow it are slaves becase they are forced to follow religion and its dogmas right?
They&#39;re not forced, but they&#39;re willing dupes. The reason why they become willing dupes are many, but one of which may be because they find themselves trapped in an uncaring society where "getting ahead" for the individual is priority number one. Humans are ultimately social animals so they find solace in the fellowship of the church or temple in exchanged for adopting lies and unreality. Few people except psychopaths can tolerate living without a sense of belonging to a community perhaps because that&#39;s the way we have evolved. Individually we are no match against even the most modest wild predators like wolves, but working together we could bring down the largest lion or bear, therefore it makes sense that our ancestors and hence us evolved to prefer group socialization rather than lone existence. The faith peddlers preys upon this weakness, but preferring unreality to reality is always harmful.


Red Team

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by C_Rasmussen
Just because I believe in God doesn&#39;t make me crazy or a bad person.

Disputable...to say the least.

People who seriously believe in imaginary things obviously have some kind of mental "malfunction".

People who "chat" with "supernatural entities" or who "see them" are clearly crazy in the colloquial sense of the word.

Seriously religious people do behave badly...though some are, of course, much worse than others.

Some Christians think that doctors who perform abortions and women who have them should be executed while others think imprisonment is sufficient punishment.

Just as some Muslims think women who might have spoken briefly to a man outside of their family should be killed while others think a vigorous beating is sufficient to "satisfy family honor".

Yeah...seriously religious people are pretty "bad". :o

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[ItalianCommie]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Jan 31 2006, 04:51 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Jan 31 2006, 04:51 PM)
C_Rasmussen
Just because I believe in God doesn&#39;t make me crazy or a bad person.

People who seriously believe in imaginary things obviously have some kind of mental "malfunction".

People who "chat" with "supernatural entities" or who "see them" are clearly crazy in the colloquial sense of the word.

Seriously religious people do behave badly...though some are, of course, much worse than others.

Some Christians think that doctors who perform abortions and women who have them should be executed while others think imprisonment is sufficient punishment.

Just as some Muslims think women who might have spoken briefly to a man outside of their family should be killed while others think a vigorous beating is sufficient to "satisfy family honor".

Yeah...seriously religious people are pretty "bad". :o

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif [/b]
Yep. Religion has always been one of the human mind&#39;s main cages. If you&#39;re not mad, C Rasmussen, then you must be severely mentally impaired. Wether there is a God or not, things on Earth don&#39;t change anyway. Religion has to go down the drain.

Seeing we&#39;re atheists, don&#39;t you think we&#39;re going to Hell once we die? :lol:

[Martyr]

But of course and I &#39;am being serious here communist states like the soviet union and Red China people were free they had the right to free opinion and free speech and were very happy just like in Cuba becuase they worked for each other, am I being right?

[Sentinel]

Originally posted by Martyr
But of course and I &#39;am being serious here communist states like the soviet union and Red China

"Communist states"... *yawn*


people were free they had the right to free opinion and free speech and were very happy just like in Cuba becuase they worked for each other, am I being right?

"Free opinion" and "Free speech" are not measures of real freedom. There are always things that can&#39;t be tolerated. Do you advocate public free speech for nazis and pedophiles in your ideal society for example?

Communists look at religion in that way. However it wasn&#39;t banned in the USSR or Cuba, which is a real shame.

What we mean with chains of the mind, is what religion does when it rejects rationality.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 01:10 PM
But of course and I &#39;am being serious here communist states like the soviet union and Red China people were free they had the right to free opinion and free speech and were very happy just like in Cuba becuase they worked for each other, am I being right?
I&#39;ve talked to a Russian who said they werent allowed to wear any crosses, go to church, etc. She became an atheist too :D

[boosh logic]

I was thinking about how god is supposedly omnipent, and came up with this:

If god knows all that is and all that will happen, then that means in his eyes that all of our "sins" have already happened, as he knows they will. Therefore we can do whatever the fuck we want - kill priests, etc, and it makes no difference at all because we have already done it. Doesn&#39;t that mean that the whole basis of religion - morals (and lies, opression, etc) - are exactly what they condemn? If the idea is to scare people into following rules, then the fact that they have already done all the things in the future means they have no choice in what happens, so nothing has any consequences.

What does everyone think about this?

[Martyr]

Originally posted by The Sentinel+Feb 4 2006, 10:28 AM--> (The Sentinel @ Feb 4 2006, 10:28 AM)
Martyr
But of course and I &#39;am being serious here communist states like the soviet union and Red China

"Communist states"... *yawn*


people were free they had the right to free opinion and free speech and were very happy just like in Cuba becuase they worked for each other, am I being right?

"Free opinion" and "Free speech" are not measures of real freedom. There are always things that can&#39;t be tolerated. Do you advocate public free speech for nazis and pedophiles in your ideal society for example?

Communists look at religion in that way. However it wasn&#39;t banned in the USSR or Cuba, which is a real shame.

What we mean with chains of the mind, is what religion does when it rejects rationality. [/b]
I want people to have the free will to do what they want in a society, so that government ideology doesnt intervere with their lives. Communists control every thing propoganda,economy, what you think, what you should buy. Religion gives you the opportunity to believe or not I have friends whose families are very religious but the teens are athiests. So I still don&#39;t see how believes are bringning people misery while the same ideology you defend brought misery to millions of people.

[Tormented by Treachery]

That&#39;s enough for a restriction thrice over.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Communists control every thing propoganda,economy, what you think, what you should buy.

A statment from someone who has no fucking clue as to what they are talking about.


Religion gives you the opportunity to believe or not I have friends whose families are very religious but the teens are athiests.

Well if your a christian, you need to be stoning those atheists to death, the bible say so.


So I still don&#39;t see how believes are bringning people misery while the same ideology you defend brought misery to millions of people.

Communism hasnt existed yet, so that statement is false. But then again, you being a theist clearly proves your irrational.

[Sentinel]

Boosh Logic: Religion is so full of contradictions and illogic that it really isn&#39;t worth the effort to point them out for these people. They already reject reason. But we still must do it, to convince the "doubtful ones". So, a good point&#33;

Martyr:


Originally posted by Martyr
I want people to have the free will to do what they want in a society

We sure are on different sides of the barricades then my counter-revolutionary "friend".


Religion gives you the opportunity to believe or not

Eh, no it doesn&#39;t. It condemns you to eternal torment if you reject it.


I have friends whose families are very religious but the teens are athiests.

Yeah, that is a phenomenon called progress. Every generation rejects superstition in larger numbers than the previous. The parents are not capable to stop this, even though they undoubtedly very much would like to.


So I still don&#39;t see how believes are bringning people misery while the same ideology you defend brought misery to millions of people

There sure is a lot you don&#39;t see.. ;) Like Nate already pointed out, we yet have to see communism "in action". So it hardly has brought misery to anybody.

[Martyr]

Wait a minute did you just say that communism has never been in action?... Do you have any proof of that

[Sentinel]

Wait a minute did you just say that communism has never been in action?... Do you have any proof of that

This is basics:

There have been socialist states with communist parties in power, which have tried to (or in some cases claimed that they tried) to advance to communism.

While some still do, none of these has achieved a communist level of development ie managed to build a communist society.

You obviously don&#39;t know what communism is. I would therefore suggest that
you do some reading on the subject before making any more claims here;
such as talking about "communist states" which is an oxymoron since in communism the state is abolished. OK? :lol:

[Tormented by Treachery]

And yet another ignorant cappie gets *****slapped :) I saw that one coming. :lol:

[Martyr]

So then on what about Red China,or USSR, or Cuba, or North Korea or Cambodia? They all claimed to be communist countries.

[Tormented by Treachery]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 08:19 PM
So then on what about Red China,or USSR, or Cuba, or North Korea or Cambodia? They all claimed to be communist countries.
Tell me, martyr, in which society of those you listed is there a lack of a state?

They seem to have a hell of an organization resembling government, which would be called that.

And since any person with a passing understanding of communism knows the definition, there can be no communist state&#33; :o

This leaves us with a problem -- is it the countries calling themselves &#39;communist states&#39;? Or is it the American ignorant media that is referring to them as that, mid-slander?

If it is the former, what is there difference between "Chinese communism" and "American democracy"? Both are contradictions&#33;

Let not your eyes fool you -- Hitler used &#39;Socialist&#39; as well.

Just because something is called a certain name does not mean it is what it says&#33;

[MysticArcher]

They all claimed to be communist countries.

I can claim my chemistry book is an economics book, but that doesn&#39;t make it one. You have to look at the content to find out what it really is.

It all comes down to the idea that words and actions aren&#39;t necessarily in sync, one has to examine things for what they are and not simply what they&#39;re labeled

[Sentinel]

Martyr, your god must have sent you to me as a punishment for my numerous sins.. :lol:

None of the countries you mentioned has claimed to have built communism as far as I&#39;m aware. I&#39;m not sure about the lunatic Pol Pot however.. The point is, though: They haven&#39;t.

They are/were socialist experiments. Not "communist countries". It seems you didn&#39;t take my advice, and read any material on what communism is about. I ask you, again, to do that. Begin with the Communist Manifesto for example.

You might see something challenging to your faith in "god" and capitalism&#33; ;)

[Martyr]

Never said I was a capitalist...

[Sentinel]

Never said I was a capitalist...

Lesson 2.

Nor did I. I said you believe in it, meaning: you are a right-winger. A capitalist is someone who actually makes profit from other people&#39;s labor.

Now you&#39;ll propably say you never said you believed in capitalism. But since you obviously aren&#39;t a leftist it kind of narrows it down, wouldn&#39;t you say? :lol:

I agree that I&#39;m assuming though, so could you please offer an explanation, that is
a post where you declare what your political preferences are. I&#39;d also be very thankful if it was longer than one line. :)

[Martyr]

Well Iam in the middle cos I dont agree with the two extreme&#39;s whether it be facism(Right) or Communism(Left).

[Sentinel]

Well Iam in the middle cos I dont agree with the two extreme&#39;s whether it be facism(Right) or Communism(Left).

Believe or not, we actually have a name for that kind of system: capitalism. Be it where ever on the spectrum from ultra-conservative to social democratic pseudo-leftism, it&#39;s still capitalism.

Why is it so hard to admit that you are a supporter of it? You don&#39;t have to worry about ruining your reputation as a dedicated leftist here on the board, or anything. :)

And thanks for respecting my humble wish of getting a more lengthy response than your usual ones.

I love you Martyr. :wub: