Log in

View Full Version : Communists in third world nations...



Neto
20th January 2006, 20:05
I live in a country where capitalism is in a very early stage, and I have been battling with this question for some time now. Does it make sense to be a communist in a country where a proletarian revolution is no where in sight?

What should be the actions of a Marxist in a country like Brazil or Mexico? Should they advocate the advancement of capitalism? Should they advocate Leninism (the only type of 'Marxism' that countries like these can achieve)?

Take Mexico for example. There are presidential 'elections' coming up soon, and two candidates are extremely reactionary and the other one is 'progressive' (which obviously means less reactionary). I believe that the 'progressive' candidate will take a bigger step to make Mexico a more technologically advanced capitalist country.

Should communists campaign for a bourgeois bastard like this hoping that the material conditions for a revolution will get there sooner? Should they denounce bourgeois elections as the fraud that they are just like they should in advanced capitalist countries?

To repeat the main question: does it make sense to be a communist in under-developed capilast countries? Or should I just move to a country where Marxist ideas actually help?

As you can see, I am new here and I wasn't sure weather to put this in Theory or Politics. I'm sure the admins will act accordingly.

JC1
20th January 2006, 21:56
I live in a country where capitalism is in a very early stage, and I have been battling with this question for some time now. Does it make sense to be a communist in a country where a proletarian revolution is no where in sight?


Yes, it makes sense, as prolrtarian reveloution is the only kind of reveloution that can be fermented under the condition's of imperialism.

This is becuase forign capital is the kind of capital around in those country's. How can a Bourgoise reveloution take place if there is no bourgoise.

RebeldePorLaPAZ
20th January 2006, 22:39
I live in a country where capitalism is in a very early stage, and I have been battling with this question for some time now.

What country is that???


Does it make sense to be a communist in a country where a proletarian revolution is no where in sight?

The question doesn't make since, a proletarian revolution doesn't have to be the only thing that you look at. In the U.S. for an example, you’re not going to convince the population by saying “join us for a proletarian revolution to overthrow capitalism” because many people here wouldn't even know what the proletarian is. So in a sense in the U.S. a proletarian revolution isn't in sight, at least not anywhere close in sight but it still make's sense to be a communist because we have other things to look at. There is a strong capitalist foundation in the country and a large working class suffering from it. Our role as communist in the U.S. should be organizing the working class, educating, and forming a true proletarian presence, and further develop our movement so we can liberate ourselves.


What should be the actions of a Marxist in a country like Brazil or Mexico? Should they advocate the advancement of capitalism?

Why would they further the advancement of capitalism, to create a bigger gap between the rich and the poor? The Mexican Marxist must organize and stay true to Socialism. There is no limit to what the Marxist can achieve but it's up to them, but to advance capitalism is to become a capitalist. Are the Zapatistas trying to advance capitalism?


Should communists campaign for a bourgeois bastard like this hoping that the material conditions for a revolution will get there sooner?

Ok, let&#39;s all skip the democratic part of change to gain support and skip right to fighting the revolution. <_< I’m sure that would work.

There has to be a point when you rally support and build a movement and that’s through democracy, vote for the working class party not the bourgeoisie. When the ruling class; because they are not going to give up their power without a life or death struggle, comes down on you then that’s when the revolution begins. When democracy no longer exists that’s when you grab your AK-47.

"Where a government has come into power through some form of popular vote, fraudulent or not, and maintains at least an appearance of constitutional legality, the guerrilla outbreak cannot be promoted, since the possibilities of peaceful struggle have not yet been exhausted. - Ernesto &#39;Che&#39; Guevara”


To repeat the main question: does it make sense to be a communist in under-developed capilast countries?

Are you trying to refer to third world countries?


--Paz

red_che
21st January 2006, 01:56
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 08:21 PM
I live in a country where capitalism is in a very early stage, and I have been battling with this question for some time now. Does it make sense to be a communist in a country where a proletarian revolution is no where in sight?

What should be the actions of a Marxist in a country like Brazil or Mexico? Should they advocate the advancement of capitalism? Should they advocate Leninism (the only type of &#39;Marxism&#39; that countries like these can achieve)?

Take Mexico for example. There are presidential &#39;elections&#39; coming up soon, and two candidates are extremely reactionary and the other one is &#39;progressive&#39; (which obviously means less reactionary). I believe that the &#39;progressive&#39; candidate will take a bigger step to make Mexico a more technologically advanced capitalist country.

Should communists campaign for a bourgeois bastard like this hoping that the material conditions for a revolution will get there sooner? Should they denounce bourgeois elections as the fraud that they are just like they should in advanced capitalist countries?

To repeat the main question: does it make sense to be a communist in under-developed capilast countries? Or should I just move to a country where Marxist ideas actually help?

As you can see, I am new here and I wasn&#39;t sure weather to put this in Theory or Politics. I&#39;m sure the admins will act accordingly.
Lenin and Mao made a clear analysis on such countries and their experiences would demonstrate how such societies should do a revolution. In a semifeudal society, a two-stage revolution is the most appropriate. The experiences of Russia, China, Vietnam and Korea would demonstrate this, with the exception of the Kruschev and post-Kruschev era, of course.

The first stage is a democratic revolution. Wherein it aims to seize political power, end Imperialist domination, and smash the ethnic feudal system. This revolution is not purely proletarian, I mean not only the proletariat will take part in the revolution. All of the democratic forces (proletariat, peasantry, the progressive petty-bourgeoisie, a portion of the national/native bourgeoisie who are against Imperialist domination, and taking advantage of the rifts within the ruling class) would be involved. In this stage, the proletariat&#39;s most trusted ally would be the peasantry. The basic alliance of the proletariat and the peasantry would be the back bone of the revolution, where the proletariat is the leading class.

Upon seizing political power, the next stage would be the socialist revolution and construction. There must be no capitalist transition between these two stages. The transition form semifeudalism to industrialization shall be done within the socialist construction and revolution, that is, under the dictatorship of the proletariat. Seems easy? I guess not. That is a very long way to travel... But it must be taken, anyhow.

I think you know this very well already. I am sure you must have read a lot on Lenin and Mao. Their literatures would be the best references, I should say. :)

I would like to tell you in advance, though, that redstar would surely propose that your country should establish capitalism first before going to socialism. :(

I say, rather, that is now obsolete since capitalism is already a dying system.. on its eve of destruction. On the contrary, the road to socialism must be taken.

red_che
21st January 2006, 02:03
Oh, by the way, regarding the question on whether you should participate on the reactionary elections or not, I guess it would be up to the situation you are in. If you are sure your participation would help to further the revolution, then you must do it. If not, then leave it as that. On our experience, our participation helped in advancing the revolution. But of course, we always rely on the armed revolutionary struggle as our primary method for winning the revolution. And so far, the revolutionary movement in our country advanced more rapidly and became stronger on an all-round basis. :cool:

Neto
21st January 2006, 05:10
Originally posted by RebeldePorLaPAZ+--> (RebeldePorLaPAZ)So in a sense in the U.S. a proletarian revolution isn&#39;t in sight, at least not anywhere close in sight but it still make&#39;s sense to be a communist because we have other things to look at.[/b]
Actually, in Europe the workers are considerably less reactionary than in the U.S., and probably more receptive to communist ideas. Even so, the working class in the United States is less ignorant and less religious than the one in Mexico. A large part of the working class in Mexico are peasants who have just arrived to the city.


Originally posted by RebeldePorLaPAZ+--> (RebeldePorLaPAZ)Why would they further the advancement of capitalism, to create a bigger gap between the rich and the poor?[/b]
Just for the little reason that communism can only come after advanced capitalism.


Originally posted by RebeldePorLaPAZ
Are the Zapatistas trying to advance capitalism?
Well, they haven&#39;t exactly been successful. Don&#39;t get me wrong, I was solidary with them when I could, but they are hardly Marxist. Except for a few of the ranking officials, I think they were just fighting for a piece of land to farm.


Originally posted by red_che
I think you know this very well already.
You are right. I do know this, I just don&#39;t buy it. The society which I envision after a revolution -- as well as the revolution itself -- requires a kind of conciousness that the workers in such countries just can&#39;t have. Not to mention the peasants, who are reactionary as hell.


[email protected]
I am sure you must have read a lot on Lenin and Mao.
Well, not exactly. That kind of &#39;Marxism&#39; never really appealed to me. I rather feel like Russian proletarians following Lenin was very much like Americans following Bush. I have absolutely no trust in leaders of any sort. Why should I trust leaders and parties when I see with my own eyes how today&#39;s leaders and parties betray the trust of so many people?

I have, however, read enough of Marx&#39;s works to realize that Leninism and all of its variants are just...to put it bluntly: bogus. Of course, it&#39;s easy to say it now that we know what happened. So Leninism proved to be very useful...now we know what not to do (and who not to follow :)).


red_che
In this stage, the proletariat&#39;s most trusted ally would be the peasantry. The basic alliance of the proletariat and the peasantry would be the back bone of the revolution, where the proletariat is the leading class.

I gather from this that you don&#39;t know any peasants. No women better be involved in your revolution...they really don&#39;t like it when a woman does "a man&#39;s job". :lol:

So, again, any thoughts on what Marx had to say on communists in third world/developing nations?

Janus
21st January 2006, 05:17
Well, many Marxists have waited around for the right material conditions to occur and for the working class to rise up. However, just as many leftists didn&#39;t adhere to this and led their own revolts. What tends to happen in undeveloped nations is that the backwardness becomes counterproductive and allows a single person to wield total power while centralization permits the rule of the new elite who happen to be the leaders of the revolution rather than the people. Rule by the people themselves can only be achieved through decentralization which requires the masses to take matters into their own hands.

redstar2000
21st January 2006, 05:22
Originally posted by RebeldePorLaPAZ+--> (RebeldePorLaPAZ)There is no limit to what the Marxist can achieve...[/b]

No...I&#39;m afraid there are limits and fairly strict ones at that.

A Marxist in a "third world" country is in a very awkward position.

Contrary to the Leninist conceit of the last century, you cannot skip over a lengthy period of capitalist development...which may be done under the auspices of private capital, state capital, or a mixture of both.

So a "third world" Marxist who actually wanted to participate in a communist revolution would really have no reasonable choice but to take up citizenship in an "old" capitalist country and "go from there".

If that&#39;s not practical, then one "good thing" that a "third world" Marxist could do is attack all of the pre-capitalist cultural traits of his/her country.

The emerging proletariat in those countries is severely handicapped by superstition, patriarchy, racism, etc. A vigorous ideological attack on those reactionary formations will "help" (in the long run) that new proletariat become sufficiently advanced for communism to "make sense".

I don&#39;t think it makes much sense for a "third world" Marxist to get involved in bourgeois revolutions -- even if they manifest themselves under the "red" flag.

It&#39;s "demoralizing" work because a Marxist would know that the most that could come from it would be some sort of social welfare system..."easing the birth-pangs" of the modern capitalist system there.

On the other hand, the more damage that can be done to all the reactionary pre-capitalist ideologies, the sooner the time may arrive when proletarian revolution might become a practical possibility.

Better it should happen in 2300 than in 2500&#33;


There has to be a point when you rally support and build a movement and that’s through democracy, vote for the working class party not the bourgeoisie.

This is actually what Marx and Engels advocated during the 19th century European bourgeois revolutions.

But we now know that such parties are incapable of passing beyond the horizons of "bourgeois right"...regardless of their "red" rhetoric.

I can&#39;t deny that it makes "a kind of sense" to vote for such parties in the "third world"...but I think it would be, again, demoralizing, to really get involved with them. You can&#39;t "make them" into more than what it&#39;s materially possible for them to be...except in words, of course.


Originally posted by [email protected]
I would like to tell you in advance, though, that redstar would surely propose that your country should establish capitalism first before going to socialism.

Close. It&#39;s not a matter of "should", it&#39;s what will happen. You can no more stop it from happening -- in one way or another -- then you can call forth the Roman Empire by issuing a manifesto.


Neto
What should be the actions of a Marxist in a country like Brazil or Mexico?

Brazil and Mexico are not really "third world" countries any more...call them "second world" if you like.

In my opinion, those countries have already become sufficiently developed as to be entering their "Age of Reform"...where capitalism is modernized in preparation for those countries to become "players" in their own right. In fact, I expect them to become imperialist countries...perhaps by 2050 or even somewhat sooner.

What this means is that a Marxist in those countries will probably get "caught up" in reformist struggles...because it&#39;s actually possible to win real reforms. It will "look like" things are leading "in a revolutionary direction"...even though that&#39;s not really what&#39;s actually happening.

Unfortunately, proletarian revolution remains a century or maybe two centuries in the future there. A Marxist there could talk about communism...but it would sound completely wacko to 99.999% of his/her listeners.

I suspect, in fact, that Marxists in the "third world" and even the "second world" are few in number and brief in duration. A "western education" brings them into contact with Marx...but what Marx really writes about is alien to nearly everything they see around them.

They can borrow some of Marx&#39;s ideas and "adapt" them for use in their own countries. The developed part of Russia in Lenin&#39;s time bears considerable resemblance to present-day "second world" countries. And the "third world" countries look almost "ideal" for Maoism to "work".

But remember that Lenin&#39;s party only came to power in the wake of catastrophic military defeat and the overthrow of a truly hated aristocracy...something that doesn&#39;t apply to today&#39;s "second world" countries.

Maoism depends on a heavily exploited peasantry...but, slowly and surely, the "third world" peasantry is being urbanized.

So the prospects are not necessarily "bright" for those versions of "Marxism"...no matter how plausible they may look to a "Marxist" in one of those countries.

There&#39;s always the possibility that someone will come up with an entirely new version of "Marxism" adapted to "second world" or even "third world" countries.

But I don&#39;t see how any conceivable ideology will overcome the historical materialist reality...that real communism is only possible in a "high tech" society...which, by definition, "second world" and "third world" countries are a very long way away from achieving.

So it&#39;s a "tough" situation.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Neto
21st January 2006, 06:01
Originally posted by redstar2000+--> (redstar2000)On the other hand, the more damage that can be done to all the reactionary pre-capitalist ideologies, the sooner the time may arrive when proletarian revolution might become a practical possibility.

Better it should happen in 2300 than in 2500&#33;[/b]

By this logic, shouldn&#39;t we vote for/promote the candidate that we know will modernize the country the fastest? Wouldn&#39;t this also help make a proletarian revolution a practical possibility?


redstar2000
In my opinion, those countries have already become sufficiently developed as to be entering their "Age of Reform"...
Now that you mention it, I was just thinking that I really am seeing some parallels between Franklin Roosevelt and this guy...it&#39;s actually quite amazing&#33;

Nothing Human Is Alien
21st January 2006, 09:57
It&#39;s "demoralizing" work because a Marxist would know that the most that could come from it would be some sort of social welfare system..."easing the birth-pangs" of the modern capitalist system there.

I don&#39;t have alot of time right now, and needless to say I disagree with redstar&#39;s mechanical analysis of the world, but I wan&#39;t to reitterate a point I have made time and time again: even if the best possible system that could come out of a revolution is a system like Cuba has, that&#39;s still good enough to me.

Ask a Haitian if they&#39;d much prefer a system like Cuba has (whatever you want to call it, of course I consider it socialist) to what they have now.

redstar2000
21st January 2006, 15:02
Originally posted by CompaneroDeLibertad
...even if the best possible system that could come out of a revolution is a system like Cuba has, that&#39;s still good enough to me.

Ask a Haitian if they&#39;d much prefer a system like Cuba has (whatever you want to call it, of course I consider it socialist) to what they have now.

The Haitian would respond the same way as both of us&#33; A "Cuba-style" regime there would be a "leap forward" of light-years.

Sad to say, I don&#39;t think such a regime would even be possible there for at least a century...unless an independent and very radical Quebec imposed it. Not "impossible" but pretty unlikely.

"Cuba-style" regimes would, in fact, be enormous improvements for most of Africa...where people are probably the most miserable and backward in today&#39;s world. Even basic literacy is a class privilege in those countries. Epidemic and very deadly diseases are routine...as is all sorts of incredible ethnic violence (often supported by external imperialists). Starvation is commonplace. And, as you might expect, superstition is rampant and frequently deadly.

Even historical materialism falters in the face of such utter wretchedness...you can&#39;t even make plausible conjectures about "what will happen" in those places.

Imperialism did (and is still doing) such a thorough wrecking job on Africa (and on Haiti&#33;) that it&#39;s impossible to say when those countries will begin to develop "normally".

It&#39;s possible that the Union of South Africa will "mature" into a modern imperialist country by the end of this century...and spread "civilization" into the African interior -- in such a way that the profits will actually stay in Africa and develop the continent.

Or South Africa could develop a "Cuba-style" regime and spread it over the continent.

Haiti is Africa "writ small"...and I don&#39;t, at present, see any hope at all for that hapless land. :(

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Janus
21st January 2006, 20:13
I believe that Africa is recovering and progressing even though that recovery may seem slight and is periodically offset by wars or famines. The different African nations are cooperating more politically and economically as can be seen by the African Union. Yes, the effects of imperialism are still easily seen and have been extremely detrimental. In fact some of the remnants of imperialism are still affecting Africa as can be seen by the diamond trade.

South Africa, Botswana, and Nigeria are only advancing and growing because of their access to natural resources. But I agree with you that there isn&#39;t much hope right now for the African nations without these resources to boost their economy like Somalia. For some of these nations, even a dictatorship would be a boost.

Amusing Scrotum
22nd January 2006, 00:23
Originally posted by redstar2000+Jan 21 2006, 03:21 PM--> (redstar2000 &#064; Jan 21 2006, 03:21 PM) Even historical materialism falters in the face of such utter wretchedness...you can&#39;t even make plausible conjectures about "what will happen" in those places. [/b]

Well Nigeria certainly seems to be getting hotter. From BBC News....


Originally posted by Nigeria unions&#39; oil region threat+--> (Nigeria unions&#39; oil region threat)The Movement for the Emancipation of the Niger Delta, the previously unknown group believed to be behind the kidnappings, reiterated a demand for compensation of &#036;1.5bn from the Shell oil company for pollution in the Niger Delta.

....

Militants in the oil-rich Delta want local Ijaw people to benefit more from the region&#39;s oil wealth.[/b]

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4631262.stm).

Plus....


Nigerian rebels vow new oil [email protected]
The group attacked a Royal Dutch Shell pumping station near the port of Warri last weekend, prompting the oil giant to withdraw 330 workers.

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4633644.stm).

Perhaps the beginning of some kind of Nigerian native bourgeois asserting itself?

Anyway....


Nigerian rebels vow new oil raids
The instability has led to a 10% fall in Nigeria&#39;s oil production. The country is Africa&#39;s leading oil exporter and the fifth-biggest source of US oil imports.

:)

RedJacobin
22nd January 2006, 01:17
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 05:29 AM
So, again, any thoughts on what Marx had to say on communists in third world/developing nations?
check out what Marx and Engels had to say about Ireland, the first colony of British imperialism:
http://lark.phoblacht.net/marxenglenlor92.html

you can search through their collected works on Ireland here:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works...eland/index.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/ireland/index.htm)

i don&#39;t think "going back to Marx" (even if he was right on Ireland) should be seen as an alternative to reading Lenin and Mao though. i think there&#39;s a real continuity between Marx&#39;s writings on Ireland and Lenin&#39;s writings on imperialism.