Marxism and Willy Wonka

[Korol Aferist]

A little girl on a Russian-American/Soviet-American(I'm soviet by the rights of parents) community website posted on the forum,

" My European History teacher just gave us the most intresting analogy, the teachings of Karl Marx were similar to the story of Willy Wonka and the chocolate factory. He stated that it would be like the Oompa Loompas revolting and killing off Willy Wonka, then running the facotry themselves and "hiring lots of hookers and doing lots of coke". That was one of the most entertaining comparisons I have ever heard. "

And others posted this to the thread:

"Marx negated the effect of human nature in his theories - much like the doves do, here."

"How exactly did he do that?"

"Given finite resources, people's instinct drives them to acquire the most they can. A property which no one owns gets no respect. Sort of like the principle where if one person is standing watching a robbery, he is more likely to do something than if 5 people were with him - they would put the responsibility on each other."

"And how does this conflict with Marx?"

Another post:

"That has little to do with Marxism. First off there is no need to kill anyone off, simply give him a 'fair' wage by Marxist standards. Secondly, spending money on non necessities like 'hookers' and 'coke' does not exist in a Marxist world. Your teacher has a very limited understanding of Communism. "

I feel the contradiction...


(P.S.- This was taken from a web-site filled with the younger generation of CCCP. Not all of them are big commies or know much about communism like you guys)

[Luís Henrique]

" My European History teacher just gave us the most intresting analogy, the teachings of Karl Marx were similar to the story of Willy Wonka and the chocolate factory. He stated that it would be like the Oompa Loompas revolting and killing off Willy Wonka, then running the facotry themselves and "hiring lots of hookers and doing lots of coke". That was one of the most entertaining comparisons I have ever heard. "

What the damn do hookers and coke have to do with all that? That's sheer bullshit propaganda.


"That has little to do with Marxism. First off there is no need to kill anyone off, simply give him a 'fair' wage by Marxist standards. Secondly, spending money on non necessities like 'hookers' and 'coke' does not exist in a Marxist world. Your teacher has a very limited understanding of Communism. "

There is no such thing as a "fair wage by Marxist standards". Wages are inherently exploitative, or the work will not produce a surplus that can be acumulated or spent by non-workers.

"Spending money" either on "necessities" or "non-necessities" has nothing to do with Communism. In fact, spending money is characteristical of class societies; spending money on luxuries is characteristical of capitalist societies - and no one I know feels the need to kill their employers to do coke or hire hookers.

There is no money in Willy Wonka's relationship with the Oompa Loompas, which means that Wonka's factory is not even a capitalist company. In fact, the Oompa Loompas are a "denial of human nature": no human being would work just for cocoa nuts. That's why, obviously, the Oompa Loompas are not human beings at all. But that's not Marx's fault, it is just an internal necessity of the tale.

Luís Henrique

[Korol Aferist]

Originally posted by Luís [email protected] 20 2006, 07:53 PM
"Spending money" either on "necessities" or "non-necessities" has nothing to do with Communism. In fact, spending money is characteristical of class societies; spending money on luxuries is characteristical of capitalist societies - and no one I know feels the need to kill their employers to do coke or hire hookers.

Well there, no one knows how much I feel the need to kill my employers to do nose candy and hire hookers.

I will add on more to this later on.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by Korol [email protected] 20 2006, 01:07 PM
" My European History teacher just gave us the most intresting analogy, the teachings of Karl Marx were similar to the story of Willy Wonka and the chocolate factory. He stated that it would be like the Oompa Loompas revolting and killing off Willy Wonka, then running the facotry themselves and "hiring lots of hookers and doing lots of coke". That was one of the most entertaining comparisons I have ever heard. "
Does your teacher also think that owners are of a different species than workers? That there is an inherent biological handicap that makes working-class people unable to manage things. Orwell made the same folly in Animal Farm. It's not true, though.

[Columbia]

Well, this is one of the weirder posts I've ever responded to. When I was a child I loved the book, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. I believe the writer of this book was murdered some time ago. I'm not sure.

In the book, and repeated in the first film, the Gene Wilder "Wilie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory" one, it is made clear that in Loompland, where the Ompa Loomps originated, they were being killed and exploited by Vernicious Knids and others creatures, who killed them and ate them.

Willie Wonka saved them and gave them a safe place to live and work. I believe they were happy to leave with him, and he didn't force them to work for him.

However, this story is a poor one for economic comparisons. In that, both the capitalist and laborer have no real interests outside of the making of the product. Wonka, though clearly rich if he wishes to be, does not appear to spend ANY money on a lifestyle. Indeed, he stays in the factory like the Loomps. He appears to work as hard as they do. In short, there is no material advantage he enjoys above them. (He aint jettin' off to Paris for dinner and a show and living off Taittinger's champaign and lobster.)

Remember he's obsessed with chocolate making. PERIOD.

At the end of the book, Charlie and his family get to live in the factory, where he lives, not his mansion in Kent, or some such.

Of course, the world Charlie lives in has plenty of class divisions.

It's a wonderful book, and I'm a cappie who loves it, but it's more about courtesy and kindness in its moraity than it is about socialism v. capitalism. I dare say a Marxist (unless they're pathetic) could enjoy it as well as us exploiter types.

[KC]

Does your teacher also think that owners are of a different species than workers? That there is an inherent biological handicap that makes working-class people unable to manage things. Orwell made the same folly in Animal Farm. It's not true, though.

Animal Farm was anti-totalitarian, not anti-communist.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 02:30 AM

Does your teacher also think that owners are of a different species than workers? That there is an inherent biological handicap that makes working-class people unable to manage things. Orwell made the same folly in Animal Farm. It's not true, though.

Animal Farm was anti-totalitarian, not anti-communist.
I was written in reference to the Soviet Union, no?
Either way, it totally missrepresents any type of society of humans.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by Columbia
I dare say a Marxist (unless they're pathetic) could enjoy it as well as us exploiter types.

Well I certainly enjoyed it when I was younger and still watch the film when it comes on TV. :)

However this whole topic seems rather strange. Does it really matter if a fairy tale supports the politics of X or Y???

Obviously certain fairy tales serve as great propaganda (think fascist "fairy tales"). However in the grand scheme of things they have little impact on anything other than serving as amusement for the audience.

Really debating whether the Umpa Lumpas were wage slaves or not, is pointless. Plus the Smurfs is a much better show for this kind of topic.

Papa Smurf is Karl Marx. :o

http://badmovieclub.typepad.com/bad_movie_club/images/marx.jpg

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Vladislav]

Papa Smurf is Karl Marx. ohmy.gif

Seriously???


My European History teacher just gave us the most intresting analogy, the teachings of Karl Marx were similar to the story of Willy Wonka and the chocolate factory.

European History Teacher is wrong. Willy Wonka didn't exactly own the Oompa Loompas, they worked there to escape some evil land place(I can't remember what it's called). Willy Wonky didn't give a shit about money and he did that competition thing to find a person who he could trust to pass on the Factory after he retired.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by Vladislav+Jan 21 2006, 12:03 PM--> (Vladislav @ Jan 21 2006, 12:03 PM)
Papa Smurf is Karl Marx. :o

Seriously???[/b]

See for yourself....

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=smu...communism&meta= (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=smurfs+communism&meta=)

From wikipedia....


Smurf Communism
The theories usually begin by citing what seem to be uncanny aspects of Smurf characters' appearances. Papa Smurf has a wide beard, which some feel looks like Karl Marx's. He also wears red slacks and a red cap, displaying the stereotypical color of Communism throughout the world. Despite the society's communal nature, Papa Smurf does have the ultimate authority, often overruling Brainy Smurf when he oversteps his boundaries. In several episodes when Papa Smurf is not present, the Smurf Village's utopian system destabilizes entirely.

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smurf_Communism).

I did dispute the idea when I first heard it, but gradually it has "grown" on me. :)

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by Columbia+Jan 21 2006, 06:37 AM--> (Columbia @ Jan 21 2006, 06:37 AM) Well, this is one of the weirder posts I've ever responded to. When I was a child I loved the book, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. I believe the writer of this book was murdered some time ago. I'm not sure. [/b]
Ronald Dahl died of leukemia in 1990 at the ripe old age of 74. I was always a fan of his books as a child. Though my favourite was always James and the Giant Peach.


Armchair Socialism on Papa Smurf
In several episodes when Papa Smurf is not present, the Smurf Village's utopian system destabilizes entirely.
Sounds more like Lenin to me :lol:

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by ComradeOm+Jan 21 2006, 12:33 PM--> (ComradeOm @ Jan 21 2006, 12:33 PM)
Armchair Socialism on Papa Smurf
In several episodes when Papa Smurf is not present, the Smurf Village's utopian system destabilizes entirely.
Sounds more like Lenin to me :lol: [/b]

It could be Lenin. However if one was to go about trying to prove the Papa Smurf-Karl Marx connection, I'd imagine that little tit-bit could be argued was a reference to the way the First International operated. Indeed I'd imagine that there could be strong case made for this based on the plot in some of the episodes.

[Columbia]

Animal Farm was anti-totalitarian, not anti-communist.

I believe the main point of Animal Farm was to point out how "Communist" Revolutions become subverted. It is a precise paralell to the Soviet Union, China, and Vietnam (a few examples), where, as the last line of the novel implies, one cannot tell the difference between the party elite, and the capitalists they displaced. This is the true essense of the book.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by Columbia+--> (Columbia)I believe the main point of Animal Farm was to point out how "Communist" Revolutions become subverted.[/b]

Even that could be contested (and 1984 certainly could be contested). Frankly Orwell (as a person) seems rather complicated....

Was the Orwell who wrote Animal Farm, the same Orwell that fought in the Spanish Civil War? ....did he become an outright reactionary (it's well known he hated Jews, black people and women)?

Or was Orwell just trying to be a "good Trot"? ....criticising "Stalinism" as best he could?

We will (I suspect) never know. :(

However what we do know is that 1984 (and probably Animal Farm) was a criticism of both "Stalinism" and "liberal democracy". He was also criticising fascism.... there are parallels between the "Socialism" of 1984 and "National Socialism" (namely the way both came to power and how they called electoral victories "revolutions").


Originally posted by [email protected]
It is a precise paralell to the Soviet Union, China, and Vietnam

You are being silly here. When Orwell wrote Animal Farm Vietnam hadn't happened and the Chinese Revolution was still very young.

So the only parallel is with the Soviet Union and of course the plight of Trotsky (note: there is apparently a book called Snowball's Parody or something, which apparently angered the Orwell Estate greatly).


Columbia
This is the true essense of the book.

Disputable....

Is the "true essence" that, or is it perhaps that everything would of been okay had only Snowball (Trotsky) not been exiled? ....or perhaps is the "true essence" of the book that we shouldn't let any bastard "lead" us? ....or as someone said earlier, is the "true essence" that bosses are a different species.... more advanced and intelligent?

As with all novels, the "true essence" (unless it is clearly stated) is debatable and subject to interpretation (a "lefty" reads the book and draws a completely different opinion than a "righty").

[Columbia]

Armchair,

You should realize that I was writing in broad strokes. He had paralell animals to people allusions, yes, but his work is also universal about the nature of what happens where a "Peoples" revolution occurs, and their leadership becomes no better than the cappies who they replaced.

Don't make him too overly complicated in this regard. Orwell was a socialist who simply become more and more depressed about the future of society as a whole, as he saw (from his point of view) great harm to society from both capitalism AND those who would save the world from capitalism.

You may be looking to hard at it.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

An important thing to note about Animals Farm is that Orwell claims that it is impossible for freedom and equality to exist. He didn't point out any flaws of the "revolution" which led to the corruption of the pigs except the revolution itself. As if corruption is a natural consequence of any revolution. Clearly Orwell was a reactionary bastard.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by Columbia+--> (Columbia)but his work is also universal about the nature of what happens where a "Peoples" revolution occurs and their leadership becomes no better than the cappies who they replaced.[/b]

Is it???

Can you say it is a "universal law" that a post revolution leadership will be as (if not more) tyrannical than the pre revolution leadership? ....were the French revolutionaries of 1789 worse than the Monarchy? ....were the Bolshevik's worse than the Tsar? ....did they proceed over serfdom and child labour?

Here's a hint for you, before you make declarations about the "universal" "nature" of works of fiction (short ones at that). Learn about what happened in the real Universe.


Originally posted by [email protected]
Don't make him too overly complicated in this regard. Orwell was a socialist who simply become more and more depressed about the future of society as a whole, as he saw (from his point of view) great harm to society from both capitalism AND those who would save the world from capitalism.

Why shouldn't I make him "complicated"???

For instance, if that "depression" of Orwell's was important, isn't it important to know that he may have been depressed because he was a sexist and a racist and hated the idea of a society where people lived equally and women, black people and Jews were not discriminated against. Is that not important?


Columbia
You may be looking to hard at it.

Well you seem to think Orwell was remarkably perceptive in his criticisms of revolution. So, given that you assert the "universal" "nature" of his work, shouldn't I look at it "hard"?

[Columbia]

And Wagner hated Jews but could still write an opera.

And King was not for homosexuals in the civil rights revolution but was still a great spokesman for America.

And Lincoln hated Catholics but lead a movement to save the Union. (That's Union of States, not a labor thing.)

And Washington was a great founder of the United States, but not big on freeing the slaves.

And you are (maybe) good at somethings despite your prejudices.

I have no racial prejudices but immediately discount rude people or those who do not show respect to others. Or dress like criminals. (My prejudice.)

What's your point?

[Janus]

"Given finite resources, people's instinct drives them to acquire the most they can. A property which no one owns gets no respect. Sort of like the principle where if one person is standing watching a robbery, he is more likely to do something than if 5 people were with him - they would put the responsibility on each other."

That is one of the most incoherent arguements I've ever heard. First off that process is called deindividuation where the people lose their personal sense of responsibility. If you're referring to the bystander effect, then you must be aware that it depends on the situational factors such as ambiguity and the personal characterstics of the bystanders.

As for the human nature arguement, communism doesn't ignore human nature. The current competition is fueled by capitalism but how is it impossible for humans to live together cooperatively once capitalism is gone? It could be argued that competition is human nature but so is adaption. Simply put, after people break the fetters of capitalism, they will see that they can survive by cooperating with each other rather than competing against each other.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by Columbia+--> (Columbia)And you are (maybe) good at somethings despite your prejudices.[/b]

Well hopefully I succeed in annoying those I am prejudiced against. :)


Columbia
What's your point?

You really don't get it? :huh:

Surely it's obvious? ....for instance would you ask a Nazi to write a report on Jews and then say that this report represents the "truth"?

Orwell was a racist and a sexist. So don't you think Animal Farm (and the idea that different people could live together) would have been influenced by Orwell's prejudices?

Ask yourself, how come some of the different species are better than others? ....perhaps Orwell here was hinting at what he actually thought, that some ethnic groups are better than others?

As that old fella' Marx once said.... criticise everything.

[Comrade Hector]

Originally posted by Korol [email protected] 20 2006, 06:10 PM
" My European History teacher just gave us the most intresting analogy, the teachings of Karl Marx were similar to the story of Willy Wonka and the chocolate factory. He stated that it would be like the Oompa Loompas revolting and killing off Willy Wonka, then running the facotry themselves and "hiring lots of hookers and doing lots of coke". That was one of the most entertaining comparisons I have ever heard. "
What the bloody hell does Karl Marx have to do with Willy Wonka?! What the hell does a workers Revolution have to do with little orange faced midgets?! I'd expect more intelligence from a drunken KKK redneck!

[pandora]

Originally posted by Comrade Hector+Jan 23 2006, 11:45 AM--> (Comrade Hector @ Jan 23 2006, 11:45 AM)
Korol [email protected] 20 2006, 06:10 PM
" My European History teacher just gave us the most intresting analogy, the teachings of Karl Marx were similar to the story of Willy Wonka and the chocolate factory. He stated that it would be like the Oompa Loompas revolting and killing off Willy Wonka, then running the facotry themselves and "hiring lots of hookers and doing lots of coke". That was one of the most entertaining comparisons I have ever heard. "
What the bloody hell does Karl Marx have to do with Willy Wonka?! What the hell does a workers Revolution have to do with little orange faced midgets?! I'd expect more intelligence from a drunken KKK redneck! [/b]
There is a lot in Willie Wonka and The Chocalate Factory, it introduces children to the wonderful world of globalization and free trade.

The workers are giving poor Willie problems, so he fires them all and throws them out of his factory. Then he goes down to Indonesia or some country where the people are being eaten by Komono Dragons, think oppressive rulers. He offers them escape from that oppression by entering his factory and thereby becomes the oppressor.

Where can Ompa Loopas go? No where Mother fo Willie Wonkas got their passport :lol:
Welcome to the Global Slave Network of workers 100 million strong.

Oh sure they can go back to the right wing gov. in the form of the Kimono Dragons, aka deported, only to be killed or imprisoned on arrival.

They can't leave the factory or they'll be deported so they are basically slaves. They don't have passports. And they are small and a different color, English may not even be their first language leaving them open to police brutality, and no acceptance by the white's that surround the area.

This is good for Willie because it leaves wages low and the Ompa Loopas must buy everything from the company store coalmine style, so they are always in debt.

So they take out their scorn on rich brats that enter their factory, and sing cultural songs to take away the pain. The songs of the Ompa Loompas is a cartoon version of slave songs, sung to keep up ones spirits in oppression.

Willie's supposedly a nice master, that's nice :D

What happens when the Ompas stop working and demand better conditions, does he call in the guards. Oh they wouldn't do that because they are just so happy there living in the factory working day and night, they don't know no better!

What a crock. I love when little Veronica decides she's going to have some Ompa Loopas work in her factory, and later goes down the chute :lol:

Wonka allows this perhaps because little Veronica and her daddy represent corporate competition for his workers and product, a real threat.

Best to go with Charlie, the nice innocent proleteriat child who is clueless to his rights as a human being, and accepts being bullied, sure he's nice, but Willie Wonka isn't always so nice to Grandpa who knows when Charlie's being hoodwinked.

Ps NOtice no Ompa Loopa children are offered a Golden ticket even though they work their asses off more than Charlie, hell they prob. don't even go to school, who gives a (#) they're only OMpa Loopas
It's a story of oppression, ahead of its time in regards to Globalization