Death

[boosh logic]

I've been thinking about this for while, and was wandering if anyone shared a similar view. I'm not afraid of death, as being an atheist, I know that once I am dead that is it. Although I may be concerned about family/friends after I did so, and would like to see and do a lot in life, I am not afraid of death. However, I am afraid of pain - I don't mean that in a literal sense as in a dead arm or a bruise, but as in dislocation and serious injury. Does anyone else share this view, that they don't particularly mind at what age they go, but fear pain more? (sorry if this brings anyone down, I don't mean it in a depressing way ;) )

Before anyone asks it to be moved to religion, I didn't start it there because I would like to avoid talk about it in the sense of an afterlife or heaven after death.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Pain is an experience that is unpleasant, death is not something any of us have experienced. This is really a fear of the unknown, versus fear of some of the worst that we have experienced.

Personally, and this is purely speculative, I don't particuarlly fear either. Physical pain is something that I have found I can deal with quite well, and I have simply passed out when it has become unbearable. Whilst I didn't like that experience much (I have only had it once, opperating without anaesthetic) I don't particuarlly fear it.

Death holds no fear for me, essentially it is an end to suffering and pain. It is also an end to happiness, but this is neither here nor there.

I fear emotional distress more, or the death or pain of others less capabable of dealing with it, or those for whom it holds more fear. When my psycho ex told me she miscarried my baby I was devastated, a couple of times later and I found out she was lying, but even (and I hate to admit it) when I did go to the doctors with her about her possible pregnancy (may or not have been mine) the feeling I got when the apparent child was terminated was far more unpleasant than the most intense pain I have experienced.

Emotional distress is something I actually feal, and the material conditions that created this distress. Physical pain you can distance yourself from, but, at least as far as I can tell, emotional hurt and loss can take you to places where even drugs do little.

[gilhyle]

I share your view of pain but not your view of death.

There is a view that it is inherent in the nature of individual consciousness to regret death. I think this is wrong. I have known people with no sense of regret at approaching death.

But I do think that there is a strong social determination pushing many in capitalist society to anticipate their deaths with significant regret, particularly if they fail to achieve what is perceived to be the normal lifespan.

[boosh logic]

I fear emotional distress more... I was devastated

That must of been so hard - I think that just reading about that experience has got to make me agree with you - emotional pain is harder to deal with, especially as it has no clean-cut end/antidote like physical pain, which will either die out, or be treated with drugs.


There is a view that it is inherent in the nature of individual consciousness to regret death. I think this is wrong. I have known people with no sense of regret at approaching death.

What do you mean by that? That you think it is wrong for people nearing death to not mind or that the view is wrong that it is natural?

Would you mind elaborating on your view of death?

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 09:51 PM
That must of been so hard - I think that just reading about that experience has got to make me agree with you - emotional pain is harder to deal with, especially as it has no clean-cut end/antidote like physical pain, which will either die out, or be treated with drugs.

I don't really mind to be honest, it could have been worse, especially if it turned out to be something real. Others deal with far worse everyday, it is just a part of life.

Although this took me to levels that physical pain never could, as far as I have experienced, I still remain grateful for the experience. If not for the experience of extreme pain, how can we punctuate extreme joy? Also is expereincing just the emotion of happiness our only end? Anyone heard of Skinner's rats?

[boosh logic]

Thats a really cool way to look at it - learning a lesson from it and moving on, I mean. I agree - if there was no bad, there would be no good, as we would have nothing to measure it by, and therefore would bad be inevitably created from the lack of itself?

What are Skinners Rat's though?

[Hegemonicretribution]

I just tried to find a link, and perhaps that was not an accurate example. I had only heard of it as a general example, but looking at the study it is not applicable here.

However (and this isn't accurate, but hypothetically it works), imagine there was someway you could trigger the pleasure centres of the brain. If you had a button in a cage which caused this in rats, and they worked out where it was, they would innevitably become addicted to it. When pleasure is to be had by pushing the button, what is the point in other activity outside of this? In the innaccurate version of this study I heard the rats neglected duties and died.

Even if they hadn't, would mere experience of pleasure be the fundamental goal of all life? I don't know if you have read Brave New World, but a similar question is posed there.

This is perhaps the difference between Bentham's and Mill's take on utillity; that being that Mill took intellectual pleasure on a higher level to basic, yet intense stuimulation of the nervous system.

[boosh logic]

So would I be right in saying that it shows how pleasure devalues things not associated with it? I heard about a rat experiment involving causing them to forget things by removing certain brain tissues, so I wonder if that means it could be possible to remove parts of the brain associated with discomfort and unhappiness, and then live a more pleasant (yet jaded) life.

If there was only happiness, how long would it be until someone became resentful of this happiness? Would they seek to actively destroy their society so as to find relief in misery - could that be anything to do with the story about Eden, where temptation to disobey even though it would results in serious consequences is overwhelming?

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 10:28 PM
Eden, where temptation to disobey even though it would results in serious consequences is overwhelming?
Something like that^ yes. Although I don't think that unhappiness with the happiness makes sense :P because then it is no longer happiness if you get me.

Essentially though I would choose (at least I like to think I would) a life of variety and extremes, over a life of unadulterated bliss. I am not saying that we shouldn't mostly experience happiness, but that some contrast is neccessary.

It is only once I realised ths that I found moving away from heavy drug use easier. Not that I was always happy, but that I felt I actually needed to experience reality to punctuate my altered state of mind.

Sorry, I think I have completely hi-jacked this thread with an interesting, but seperate discussion.

[Red Leader]

IMO, it is illogical to fear death. When you are alive, you feel pain, but when you are dead you cease to exist.

The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time. ~Mark Twain

What i am afraid of is dying early and missing out on the great changes and progressions mankind will make within our lifetime. Cuz personally, I rather like it here and wish to stay on this planet as long as possible.

[Commie Rat]

Well im gunna get my kicks before the whole shithouse comes burning down ~ Jim Morrison

[Clarksist]

I fear death, because it is the end of the sensations and beauty of life. I only fear it, because it is the end of something tangible. Of everything tangible.

I cannot say that I fear whatever else may come with death. I don't believe in a hell or heaven based on a theistic superstition, but rather the continuation of energy.

Will I continue to think and feel after I die? Most likely not.

But the possibilities that come with death are endless. And I, for one, wait in both fear and excitement.

[Iroquois Xavier]

Life is optional, Death is compulsory.

[maxymo]

Death is necesary, but it appears all good people die before they realy need to...
Che guevara is an example.
Pain is also necesary for us to remember how happy we are without pain

[fpeppett]

Although an athiest, I beleive we can't really dtermine death as the end of life, as we can't determine the sky is blue.

Is death just an occurance in life, who knows?!?!??

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 04:10 PM
Although an athiest, I beleive we can't really dtermine death as the end of life, as we can't determine the sky is blue.

Is death just an occurance in life, who knows?!?!??
I would have to disagree, if death is a continuation of life, then it is not what I understand death to be. Death to me actually means the ending of life. Continuation in some unimaginal way to me is just an extention of life. Death is not.

What I would be afraid of more is not experienceing dying. I am glad that I have had fairly varied and intense experiences in life so far, and I hoe that my death will be something that I would remember if I wasn't dead afterwards. Fuck dying in my sleep, or on life support.

[gilhyle]

Marx once wrote somewhere: The only antidote to mental suffering is physical pain.

Maybe the point is to distinguish between regretting death and fearing death.

Some people regret approaching death, some do not.

Some people fear death because they regret its immanent occurence, others do not fear it although they regret it.

[boosh logic]

Im not sure what I think of the actual experience of death, but it is said that it is very etheral and calm - though obviously not instant or violent death - but I don't understand how this can be said, as noone who has experienced death has lived to tell the tale.


Although I don't think that unhappiness with the happiness makes sense because then it is no longer happiness if you get me.


;) Thats what I meant, that it contradicts itself in its existence - maybe that is because I don't think anyone has never had any experience of unhappiness

[redchrisfalling]

I have no fear of death or pain because i am only one man. It bugs me to think that the ones i love would grieve for me but personaly any time will do, but be warned im going down swinging. My life is short but i know what im here to do which is something many people never find out. I have lived fought and suffered to bring about a better world if death is the next step, bring it on.

[gilhyle]

To have no fear of death, seems like having no love of life.

[Comrade J]

^I disagree. I love life (to a degree, it could be improved) and I appreciate that my life is better than others, such as starving people in 3rd world countries.
However, I don't fear death. Sure, it will end my life, I shall cease to exist, but that does not mean I do not love my life. Of course, I wish to prolong my death and live for a long time, but I do not yet fear an end to it.
Same with a lot of things you enjoy, you might not want it to end soon, but you dont neccesarily fear the end :)

And as for pain- I am rather terrified of falling on my face for some reason, if I think about it too much, I just get horrible mental images and a mental glimpse of how the pain would feel. Ever since I was running and tripped off a wall into the road. I hit my face, but my hands were down first so the impact wasn't too bad, nothing broken/bleeding.

[boosh logic]

That's kind of what I meant about it - it doesn't mean I don't enjoy life, and I am ungrateful for what I have, just that I don't fear the end.

[gilhyle]

I accept these points - one may not feel the emotion of fear in the face of the prospect of death while wishing to delay it.

This is a very different position from being indifferent to the prospect of death - which I dont think you suggest you are.

WIthin my observation of dying people, moments and periods of actual fear do occur for many, but the predominant emotion is one of sadness - people regret their approaching end and regret it quite intensely as it approaches close. (THough, as I said before, I have seen emotions of pleasurable anticipation, therefore I do not generalise about the emotions people face: I think the work of Kubler Ross on this is schematic and many people do not go through the stages she suggests).

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 04:00 PM
This is a very different position from being indifferent to the prospect of death - which I dont think you suggest you are.


I once felt indifferent towards the prospect of death after a heavy binge including the intake of some mediocre LSD. As all varieties of thought passed through my mind they did so without emotion as such. Death was something that I remained completely non-plussed about for a good few minutes. I even thought of suicide to see what it was like, but didn't because I didn't deem it interesting enough to chose that activity over any other.

I don't do regrets as such, and I accept death. It doesn't hold fear for me, even though I do truly love life. I am only affraid of not having a death, and for everything to just stop. It would make me feel cheated, if I would still be capable of feeling.

[gilhyle]

I acknowledge what you say. I confess to feeling nonplussed in the face of a human being who feels neither fear nor regret.

I say that without any sarcasm - you are blessed in this, but then I thought you blessed when you reported fainting in a non-anaesthetic operation. Anyone who has felt physical pain that took chunks out of their personality for ever will be particularly envious of your good fortune.

And your lack of regrets has little resonance with my experience of life; as I view the world, the systematic, pervasive presence of regret in the privacy of peoples minds is - in its constancy and pervasiveness - a reflection of the brutal nature of capitalism and something few of us can escape.

Value your good fortune.

[La Comédie Noire]

I fear Death. Well the nothingness after death, the closest I've come to death is doing lots of DXM, or that one time I did PCP, Dissociatives ya know can bring you palces you do not want to be, sometimes, all I can say is I hope I get shot to detah in public around alot of people, I guess you could say I fear dying alone.

[gilhyle]

Very well said.

In the richest parts of the imperialist world, the ritual of death is so constructed that a dying person is isolated from family and community in a way that makes a lonely death almost unavoidable. As we die we become non-persons, elements in a medical process that is inhuman. Thus the social relations of capitalism determine the nature of the experience of dying in a most undesirable way.

[Ol' Dirty]

The way I see it is this: I've been dead for quadrillions of years before this; it's not going to hurt to be dead for the rest of that time.

[SittingBull47]

I've actually been thinking alot about death too, and I come to the conclusion that I'm not as afraid of it as I once was. In a way, that statement makes me feel like I'm signing my life away, like I can step out of this lab in 5 minutes and be okay with being hit by a car, but it's not really like that. I think the soul exists after death, and I happen to believe in an afterlife (where that is, I haven't thought about much yet).

I guess I have the Socratic outlook of death, which I don't like because I always hated Socrates.