HEY!

[Andypunkarelli]

Hello comrades,

I finally found a cyber home that houses like minded people...2006 is indeed going to be a good year for the punkarelli :)

A little about myself...okay i'm 25, and live in Manchester UK. I'll be perfectly honest and admit that until late last year i sat on the fence politically and didn't share any opinion. In fact i new nothing about Communism until early this year when i did some research after reading Che's motorcycle diaries.

I guess after being brought up with films like "red october" and "hunt for the red october" i grew up with the notion that "communism is evil"...it is only now that i'm a little more maturer (and after having read something on the subject) that i realise that notion is exactly what the US and UK governments want us to believe...why? Because communism scares them...imagine what they would stand to lose if the world revolted against capitalism...after all thats exactly what the US and UK are doing in the middle east is it not?

So yeah i finally fell off the fence and am now proudly a commie/nationalist...can i group the two together? I guess they go hand in hand?

So thats a little about me...i guess i'm still learning about the whole concept of communism but i like it so far.

A quick question!!! Was Robin Hood a revolutionary?

Andy

[RebelOutcast]

Welcome Comrade,
It's nice to hear that you feel that you've found a "cyber home".
Nationalism and Communism cannot be grouped together, as Communism aims to break down the borders between countries and Nationalism aims to build them higher, I don't think Robin Hood was a revolutionary, just a fairy tale.
It'll be interesting to hear what you have to say, may your stay be long and informed.

-RebelOutcast

[Andypunkarelli]

Aah well that clears that up...i wasn't being funny about nationalism and communism...i just wasn't sure whether the two were linked. Every day is a schoolday :)

And yeah the robin hood question was hypothetical only...if the legend were true then was he a vigilante or a revolutionary...stealing from the rich to give to the poor?

Another scenario maybe:

If all the third world/poor countries were to take back their resources from outside nations and run them themselves (e.g. gold mines, oil fields), trade the resources with outside nations, and use the profits to improve the country's way of life...is that communism or nationalism or some other form of ism. Because thats basically my train of thought...

Sorry if these sentences seem dumb...i guess we all start by knowing nothing :)

Andy

[Led Zeppelin]

If all the third world/poor countries were to take back their resources from outside nations and run them themselves (e.g. gold mines, oil fields), trade the resources with outside nations, and use the profits to improve the country's way of life

They can't trade with other nations if they were to "take back their resources from outside nations and run them themselves", since the "other nations" (Imperialist nations) are completely dependant on those resources, in other words, the world Capitalist system will collapse if that happens.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 08:56 PM
So yeah i finally fell off the fence and am now proudly a commie/nationalist...

Then go away.


I guess they go hand in hand?

No they certianly do not.

[ItalianCommie]

Don't listen to Addiyives Free by going away. Instead look in your local library or bookshop and look out for Karl Marx's "The Manifesto of the Communist Party". That's for the basics.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 05:29 PM
Don't listen to Addiyives Free by going away. Instead look in your local library or bookshop and look out for Karl Marx's "The Manifesto of the Communist Party". That's for the basics.
We don't want proud nationalists here.

And the manifesto is rubbish and out of date, it's lost touch with the times. Read more modern works.

[ItalianCommie]

We don't want proud nationalists here.

Maybe this guy will learn more about the evils of nationalism if you let him stay here. I used to be a romantic-kind-of-nationalist myself, but I got over that.

I said Marx is for THE BASICS. Not the Bible. :P

Another book for the basics is "The Iron Heel" by Jack London. If you have the time and patience try and read "State and Revolution" by Vladimir Lenin. Also the "Principles of Communism" by Friederich Engels is very revealing.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

And the manifesto is rubbish and out of date, it's lost touch with the times. Read more modern works.
It's not out of date. It's still a good basis but material conditions have changed so we need to look at Marx in that light.

[Hegemonicretribution]

A F, even a cursuory reading of this member's posts would indicate that they are new, and accept that their use of terminology may be off. Are you so offended by the word nationalist, that you can not see it in terms of the meaning behind it?

It would appear that Andypunkarelli is new to this, and may mean something very different to what you mean by nationalist. Is it fair that you should be shot down by a suposed righty, because they group anything you say about communism along with the DPRK? Or is that just aversion to anothers ideas?

It appears they came here for guidance, and telling them to fuck off based on a remark that they may well have meant in a totally different way is ludicrous.


Anyway welcome Andypunkarelli. You will hear a lot of conflicting advice here, and there are many divisions here, so if you are looking for a static place to form a common identity then you have probably got the wrong forum/philosophy. However if seeing ideas conflicting with others to determine which is the better idea, or synthesising a new idea from this conflict is more your bag, then have fun ;)

The manifesto is an easy read, it can be knocked off the ticklist, and gives a basic understanding of Marxism, at least how it was implied at the time. This is useful for clearing up a couple of problems you may encounter, and also seeks for historical analysis when you contrast this with supposed attempts at the ideas contained within.

Of course this is far from representitive of the left wing movement, and much supplementary work would be required. It is likely you will never get a full understanding of everything, but after a few basics you will be in a place to take effective and efficient control over your own research.

The archives here are great for some basic roads into Marxism and Anarchism, and there are more specific online sites where you can see other people's takes. Personally I found reading Marx by Marx (not any of the bastardised versions of some of his works) benificial, although as you will see there is much more out there.

[Forward Union]

Im really only expressing a general hostility to Nationalism, so this guy know that it's simply not welcome. Im not about to argue his banishment or restriction or anything.

[Andypunkarelli]

Hegemonicretribution,

Thankyou for acknowleging my misinterpretation of terminology as naivity, and not as piss taking. I will read the afforementioned book on Marxism, from what i've read on this thread it is more of a good start than a "be all and end all", this is good...after all small, steps eventually cover great distance!!!

As for you additives free, that was a nice curt and unfriendly welcome by yourself...i shall disregard it because you don't know me, and therefore i can't blame you for thinking i was being a "nationalist" ass-hole.

Oh and your comment "We don't want proud nationalists here." i guess thats confused me a little. When i joined this forum i did so via a site called "che lives"...i website dedicated to all things "Che". Seeing as Ernesto himself is used by the Castro organisation as a symbol of national pride then maybe a board renaming is in order???

Don't be too quick to shoot people down...naivity doesn't make a person evil...but education goes a long way to making a person greater.

Thankyou to anybody that gave positive feedback in this thread...i now have a good idea of how to further my knowledge...

Peace,

Andy

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by Additives [email protected] 18 2006, 08:37 PM
Im really only expressing a general hostility to Nationalism, so this guy know that it's simply not welcome. Im not about to argue his banishment or restriction or anything.
Appologies then, it is just that it wasn't clear that this was your intention from your post. When you specifically targetted comments towards them, including, "go away" without really explaining anything I just thought it was alittle harsh. Then again it is something that members here innevitably have to deal with, and I am not advocating niceties for the sake of being nice. I only took objection because this was the lounge, and a place designed for new members who may well be here on less than solid, or accurate foundations.

[Abood]

hey, welcome comrade..
i understand what u mean about Robin Hood. well, i think that he was a fairy tale socialist. that's my own belief atleast.

[VictoryOverWar]

Aah well that clears that up...i wasn't being funny about nationalism and communism...i just wasn't sure whether the two were linked. Every day is a schoolday


yes everyday is a schoolday.....this site has alot of ideas floating around and you can learn lots if you can cut through the bullshit that also circulates here. If you want another place to read about communism i would suggest

http://www.marxists.org/

there is alot of good writings on that site....so all in all Welcome

[RevolverNo9]

A quick question!!! Was Robin Hood a revolutionary?

Not a revolutionary, but a rebel, certainly, against the ditribution of his social environment and one who defied contemporary value judgements.

The important things is, however, that it was Robin Hood - a social 'crusader' - that became the most popular and enduring folk-icon of the age. The English 'chose', enjoyed a legend that spoke of better times for the ordinary man.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 09:19 PM
Oh and your comment "We don't want proud nationalists here." i guess thats confused me a little. When i joined this forum i did so via a site called "che lives"...i website dedicated to all things "Che". Seeing as Ernesto himself is used by the Castro organisation as a symbol of national pride then maybe a board renaming is in order???

A lot of people here think Che was an idiot, and Castro was an oppressive dictator that executed homosexuals. I for one do not support the Cuban Oligarchy.

So consider RevolutionaryLeft detached from Che-lives.

[Kittie Rose]

AF, you seriously need to lighten up :/ Fluffy kitty hugs help any ^_^

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by Kittie [email protected] 19 2006, 04:39 PM
AF, you seriously need to lighten up :/ Fluffy kitty hugs help any ^_^
Hmm ok, but only for the fluffy kitten! :wub:

[Lord Testicles]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 08:56 PM


So yeah i finally fell off the fence and am now proudly a commie/nationalist...can i group the two together? I guess they go hand in hand?

I beleive they are called nazbols, and they are not welcome here.

and if you think they go hand in hand then you seriously need to do some research

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Originally posted by Skinz+Jan 19 2006, 07:38 PM--> (Skinz @ Jan 19 2006, 07:38 PM)
[email protected] 17 2006, 08:56 PM


So yeah i finally fell off the fence and am now proudly a commie/nationalist...can i group the two together? I guess they go hand in hand?

I beleive they are called nazbols, and they are not welcome here.

and if you think they go hand in hand then you seriously need to do some research [/b]
Jee-sus! The guy's new to all this. Give him a chance.

[Lord Testicles]

I was not accusing him of being a nazbol just poining out that they are not welcome here, also it is obvilous that he needs to do some research, so i am just pointing it out to him.

[Andypunkarelli]

Hahaha okay okay, i think i understand that nationalism and communism aren't the same thing...that was lesson number one learnt. And if i knew that Fluffy kitty hugs are the best way to make additivesfree purr then i'd have offered him a few before i posted...a good ice-breaker albeit a little strange :)

I'm an intelligent person, contrary to my earlier posts i'll admit, but i am intelligent and open-minded. I think that the most important thing i've learnt during my two day forage into political debate is that i ought to read about subjects before opening my mouth...in an effort to make some friends here, by not rubbing them up the wrong way, i shall only post about things that i'm positive i have correct.

In return i am asking that the more knowledgeable, and also the more easily offended people, excercise a little patience with me...you never know, you might actually find me to be a good person ;)

Apologies to those i may have offended during my earlier posts!!!

Andy

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 07:16 PM
I'm an intelligent person, contrary to my earlier posts i'll admit, but i am intelligent and open-minded. I think that the most important thing i've learnt during my two day forage into political debate is that i ought to read about subjects before opening my mouth...in an effort to make some friends here, by not rubbing them up the wrong way, i shall only post about things that i'm positive i have correct.
As long as you are open minded you don't even have to appologise. My personal approach to learning is holding something as most people would if they were "sure" but realising that what you are certain about tends to change. It is unreasonable to be forever without views, and I will hold mine as strong as the next person. It is through conflict with other views that I keep them, reject them, or alter them accordingly.

Not everyone agrees with this approach, but it has suited me well, especially throughout my philosophical developement. It is only when I use a view as if it is definite that I test its worth, but being open minded means you are not dogmatically holding it above and beyond reason.

Reading around and learning is great, but I would encourage you to keep shooting your mouth off. You are not proffessing to know everything as some people have done, so this shouldn't count against you. Also, and I think you agree, the point about nationalism and communism was better illustrated earlier, than a line in a text book could ever hope to achieve. Keep up the good work, and don't ever be afraid to be wrong.

Of course there is a balance, and the downside tp this approach is that you may step on a few of the more dellicate toes, when they might of had something to offer, but you play it as best you can.

A few people may jump on you for what you say, but it is worth hoping that reason will prevail, and as long as you can demonstrate why a view was held at a particular time you shouldn't worry. :)

[ScottishSocialist13]

welcome anyway comrad!

[Andypunkarelli]

Thankyou...

Thanks to an informative PM from additivesfree i now have a better idea of things, and can clearly see why nationalism isn't a cool thing on this board :)

wahoo...progress has been made!!!

Peace

[Andypunkarelli]

I'm BACK!!!

Okay i took a brief hiatus from the board and spent the last few months educating myself on socialism/communism. I read quite a few books/documents/manifesto's as part of this educational period, including such works as Che Guevara's "global justice, liberation and socialism", Marx & Engels "communist manifesto", and Noam Chomsky "hegemony or survival".

Its safe to say that i am now a firm believer in socialism, i understand that socialism will eventually lead to communism, and that the only way to achieve either is to stand up to imperialism/capitalism and neo-colonialism.

I recently joined the Socialist Workers Party and used my position within the community to help co-ordinate demonstrations during the recent visit of Condoleeza Rice.

Now i'm starting to fully understand why the world needs people with socialist thought.

I can also see why some of my earlier comments would have offended some of the board members...for that i apologise :)

Peace!!!

[LoneRed]

Originally posted by Additives [email protected] 18 2006, 05:33 PM
And the manifesto is rubbish and out of date, it's lost touch with the times. Read more modern works.
so says the anarchist, who has NO worthwhile theory

[cyu]

If all the third world/poor countries were to take back their resources from outside nations and run them themselves (e.g. gold mines, oil fields), trade the resources with outside nations, and use the profits to improve the country's way of life...is that communism or nationalism or some other form of ism. Because thats basically my train of thought...


Not sure what ism people would call this, but it sounds like a fine idea to me. As wages in developing nations rise and as they get greater control over their own resources, capitalists in still-capitalist nations would have less choices of places to go when seeking cheap, exploitable labor, forcing them to treat their own people better. All-around goodness.

[Andypunkarelli]

Now see, i thought that was a good idea too...i guess technically it isn't communism but its a compromise that could lead to better things right?

I mean, once the country has developed in such a way that it can industrialize, eventually the country could evolve into a more socialist self-sufficient state?

I guess its easier to talk about it than do it though, and its pretty utopian, but its a nice thought :)

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 04:25 PM
I guess its easier to talk about it than do it though, and its pretty utopian, but its a nice thought :)
I am afraid that is just it.

"Taking back" of resources would be seen as stealing from "honest corporation." External investors somehow come into ownership of these resources, and action to reclaim them would be condemned by the international community.

Also such with such a society, there would be embargos placed upon them by the first world as a whole, and international organisations such as the WTO would be far from forgiving.

Also this view neglects the problematic issue of leadership. When you refer to the nation, is that the proletariat, or the ruling class? I can assure that the latter would not do this, and if they did it would only be to benifit themselves. If the working class were to do it then you would be getting closer to socialism. Unfortunately this will mean that many nations will no longer trade with them.

[Andypunkarelli]

Yeah...thats what happened with Cuba isn't it. The US spat their dummy out and placed trade embargo's on the country, then had the majority of central and latin america (except for Mexico) join them in the embargo.

GITS!!!