The Fall of Rome

[redstar2000]

The Fall of Rome and the End of Civilization by Bryan Ward-Perkins, 2005, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-19-280564-9

Although this historian is by no means a "Marxist", he is a materialist and has written a remarkably interesting book.

Marxists will not only find many of the details interesting -- such as the class warfare that took place alongside the Germanic invasions.

But perhaps even more interesting are his sharp criticisms of modern historiography on this period...which tends to "play down" the collapse of Roman civilization in favor of a "spiritual history" that relies on the "gradual transformation" of the western empire into a "Christian civilization" that really "wasn't so bad".

Ward-Perkins relies heavily on the archaeological findings of the last century...showing very clearly that life for ordinary people in the western empire really, well, I can't say "went down the toilet" because those vanished as well. :o

He is also very good in explaining how "fashions" in bourgeois history change...the French and German versions of the end of the western empire are remarkably divergent from the Italian versions, for example.

The prose is "academic"...but not insufferably so.

If this is a period that interests you (375-700CE), I highly recommend this new history.

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[LSD]

I've actually just read this book and it truly is excellent.

It's quite refreshing to see a serious attempt at genuine materialism given the recent rise in mainstream history of a rather bizarre idealist deterministic paradigm.

Late antiquity is a fascinating subject, and I strongly recommend this book to anyone with an interest in ancient history or contemporary historiography.

For those unfamiliar with recent "developments" in the field, it wouldn't be a bad idea to read some of the works by proponents of the "peaceful transition" hypothesis, Walter Goffart for instance, just to fully understand the context.

[Janus]

This book seems quite interesting.


tends to "play down" the collapse of Roman civilization in favor of a "spiritual history" that relies on the "gradual transformation" of the western empire into a "Christian civilization" that really "wasn't so bad".

Gibbon, who coined the term "Fall of the Roman Empire", believed that it was religion, particularly Christianity, that caused the downfall of Rome.

I believe that any system ruled by dictators based on birth will eventually decay. Also, the decline of the economic system and the massive inception of "barabarians" also played a major role in Rome's decline.

[Sentinel]

Thanks for the tip, Redstar! I have now ordered this book. It sounds interesting!

I've always been fascinated by the Roman Empire.
Sometimes I try to imagine how far mankind would have developed without
the millenium-long pause in progress and practicing of science, provided to
us by our Christian friends: the Dark Ages.

The Roman empire was a pretty secular society,the gods were worshipped kind of halfheartedly. Had not the Christians enslaved the minds of people in Europe for such along period, where would we be now? Communism would propably be here, and maybe we would have colonized the Mars?

One can only speculate.
While ancient Rome was a horrible empire, and life for the poor people was terrible, I would propably have preferred it to Christian Feudalism.
Chains of the mind are always the worst ones!

[expatriot]

Another interesting aspect of the fall of the Roman empire is that they had plumbing- lead plumbing. Lead poisoning also contributed to the insanity of the population and eventual downfall.

Could there be a parallel here with all of the chemicals and toxins we ingest?

May be a stretch but I thought I would throw this out there.

[Janus]

Yes, the Romans had lead plumbing but this hypothesis is far from proven. Besides, the use of lead cooking utensils and goblets would've been more harmful than its use in plumbing. So lead poisoning mainly affected the wealthy whereas it now primarily affects the poor. However, there is great evidence behind the theory that lead poisoning contributed to the insanity of many of the Roman Emperors because of the use of lead acetate as a sweetener for wine.

[Sentinel]

It is a interesting theory indeed. The lunatic emperor Caligula, perhaps craziest of them all (he made his horse Incitatus a Consul to name an example) also drank liquefied pearls.

The early christians were pacifists in an expansive empire that constantly needed new troops to hold it's conquests, one of the reasons they were persecuted by the authorities. (Like the Jehovas Witnesses were by the nazis).
There were propably other reasons as well, that we can see if we watch their behavior. :rolleyes:

But perhaps their pacifism contributed to the weakened state the Western Empire was in when it was overrun by the Germanic hordes.

Emperor Constantine had by then made it the state religion of the empire, though, and the pacifist "peace and love" image was already fading away since it had become unnecessary.

They were already in power.

[James]

I wish i had seen this book last year when one of my courses was "the fall of rome".

On gibbon and christianity: it must be pointed out that he had a serious personal agenda against christianity.