a couple of words

[Abood]

Sup? i'm 17 and i'm a socialist - not much of a marxist though. o well, i'm here.. talk to me :P

[Koruptah]

Welcome Comrade. I'm new too. I'm kind of a council commie i think or an anarcho-syndicalist... Sooo... Were are you located, and can you tell us more about your thoughts on socialism? I hope this forum is as informative and inspiring for you, as is has been for me..

[Abood]

I think i'm an anarcho-communist, but i do not believe that governments should be thrown just yet.. thts becuz no1 is civilised enought to deal with such thing. i believe that the federal govt of the usa should be overthrown by a social revolutionary taking action. this would mean alot to the world, as evry1 seems to follow what the US does. it also means no more socialist revolutionaries are being killed, like Guevara - who was captured with the aid of the Capitalistic Imperial Assholes (CIA - hehe :P ).
The world should be united, with very minimal governments and no armies. The government should then give up its position when it is time (no more criminals exist) and therefore anarcho-socialism is established :D
and if u ask me, i think that if there are no laws, and people follow their morals, it'll be a much better world. i think that the government should obey morals instead of laws, until there are no criminals existing.
nice theory ey?! :P

[expatriot]

Welcome Comrade to the board. Although I am an American I agree with what you say about the U.S. government. I believe there will be significant changes made over the next 5 years when certain people get voted out of office. A lot of Republican supporters are joining the Green Party/ just to send a message (but that's a start). We Americans have the rebel spirit and the majority does not support the government. As far as a violent overthrow of the government- I don't think that will happen, unless there is another disaster (like Katrina) or if the draft is reinstated. Right now, people are not angry enough. It helps to have world pressure. As an individual I can only become as active on social issues as one person can, but I believe change will come about as more and more people become active.

I would like to hear your views on this.

[Abood]

We Americans have the rebel spirit and the majority does not support the government. but nothing is being done is there? i feel its like people are hating the government, people are socialists, but no one does something to change it. people have been doing campaigns against presidents for decades now, but they never get anything done. i used to think the only president who was ever hated by the left is george w. bush - as i'm new to the whole left, but while i was looking through music i found out there are not only "rock against bush", but theres "rock against clinton" and "rock against reagan".. with all this existing, i feel like people in america are passive as far as politics go.


unless there is another disaster (like Katrina) not gonna happen! i thought katrina was gonna wake up the nation and realize that the federal govt dont give a F(#*, but no waY! they only realized that for one week or so, and then went back to their sleep. Plus, are u really willing to kill 1000s by disasters just to change the govt?!

personally, i think that someone like Che Guevara should enter the US, get supporters - yes, i think there would be LOADS of supporters of socialism in the USA! and overthrow the government. that's the only way people in the US can actually ACT against the government! i feel like people in the US are waiting for something to happen. they dont wanna act by themselves. maybe bcuz theyre afraid, or maybe bcuz they just dont bother.

adding to this, america claims to be a "free country". then why isn't there any socialist party? only republican and democrat?! i was discussing that with my parents yesterday, and my mom said that they dont WANT a socialist/communist party. i told her that she was mistaken, cuz many americans are socialist, but i think its the federal government that doesnt want such radical thing! eventho i call it radical, i think it is less radical than the damn capitalism that is being used. my dad also said that they voted for bush, but then i corrected him and said that the only reason they vote for him is that they dont really kare and dont think before voting. voting is a responsibility, it can make a great difference, but no one seems to notice that.

[Angry Young Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 01:17 PM
Welcome Comrade to the board. Although I am an American I agree with what you say about the U.S. government. I believe there will be significant changes made over the next 5 years when certain people get voted out of office. A lot of Republican supporters are joining the Green Party/ just to send a message (but that's a start). We Americans have the rebel spirit and the majority does not support the government. As far as a violent overthrow of the government- I don't think that will happen, unless there is another disaster (like Katrina) or if the draft is reinstated. Right now, people are not angry enough. It helps to have world pressure. As an individual I can only become as active on social issues as one person can, but I believe change will come about as more and more people become active.

I would like to hear your views on this.
i am a developing socialist who could adopt any leftist theory, and am unsure as to which i shall adopt after reading thoroughly. we study marxism and anarchism in political philosophy, but thats next year. does anybody think i should buy "revolution betrayed". since i started reading 1984, i have been critical of pragmatic communism and how it seems to differ from the philosophy. what anarchist philosophers should i read?

[Abood]

i do not believe that socialism could be developed. the capitalist countries such as america would revolt against that. the first thing one ought to do before making a change is getting rid of the one who opposes it - in this case, the US federal government, or atleast making a major change in the US federal govt so that they can accept the fact that people want socialism!


what anarchist philosophers should i read?
eventho i dont know any anarchist philosopher, i think u should read about Mikhail Bakunin. i read some of his stuff, and it's pretty good.

[VictoryOverWar]

The government should then give up its position when it is time

and here is the problem with the system you envision, when people of power have power they want to stay in power. You will have a hard time finding leaders that will be willing to sit down when the time comes.


but nothing is being done is there? i feel its like people are hating the government, people are socialists, but no one does something to change it.

well this is a interesting crossroads.....the whole US does not support the government however many do. The country is literally split between 2 sides those who support and those who do not. Also even though there are many who want change they are not so quick to give up the life style they have become acoustomed too. Its not that anything is not being done it just that we have not hit that breaking point yet. On top of that there is also a overall feeling of hopelessness.


personally, i think that someone like Che Guevara should enter the US,

this would not change anything the support would not be there. The problem is there are people who speak out but the media railroads these organizations. There was a Million man protest in Washington DC after Bush himself sayed he would not be swayed by a small intrest group.


america claims to be a "free country". then why isn't there any socialist party

Um i dont know where you get your info but there is a socialist party and a communist party aswell as a bunch of other parties. The problem is there is not support for these parties. For instance in the last election Bush and Kerry there were other presidential canidates but without the funding and attention the other 2 parties get they stand no chance, so you come to someone like me who would vote socialist but instead im forced to vote democratic because voting socialist would just throw my vote away and a tyrant like bush would stay in office


my dad also said that they voted for bush, but then i corrected him and said that the only reason they vote for him is that they dont really kare and dont think before voting. voting is a responsibility, it can make a great difference, but no one seems to notice that.

Well 1 you can look at the previous paragraph for part of the reason. But the bigger reason is he stole both elections. In the 2000 elections he did not have the majority vote. More people in this country voted for Gore then bush but because of our electoral college Bush won. There was issues about the ballots having problems and in Florida there was the biggest problem with this where whole Counties were not even accounted for in the election (Florida is Governed by another Bush if you did not know). So did we learn from this, unfortunately no. We saw a repeat of this in the last election. However in this last election we also had more voting then we have ever seen in our history. More people voted against Bush in this last election by the same # of people who voted for the winning Clinton years prior. So please dont say the people of the united states dont care because many do. Also please dont lecture us on how voting is a responsability....no shit....we relize this and certainly dont need to hear it from a 17 yo who would not even have a vote in the US.

All in All through your post i see how misinformed you are and i hope that is just because of your age and lack of research. But even more scary i more and more feel like the outside world looks at all americans as these patriotic red necks which is not the case. Please realize that people are protesting every day. There are pickets in the major cities all over the US. Unfortunately i dont think we can come to an end peacefully

[expatriot]

Hey- what's with your signature? Wasn't that the Shiekh of Kuwait who just died? Wasn't he a friend of the US Govt?

From Wikipedia:

"On August 3, after much discussion of a border dispute between Kuwait and Iraq, Iraq invaded and occupied Kuwait, with the stated intent of annexing it to Iraq. Jaber and his family escaped to Bahrain and later to Saudi Arabia. US$ 5 billion from Jaber's own funds were spent on the military campaign to liberate Kuwait. In March 1991 Jabber returned to a liberated Kuwait, with little evident intention of liberalizing Kuwaiti politics. During September of that year Jaber signed an agreement with the United States that permitted a large military presence in Kuwait."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaber_Al-Ahma...-Jaber_Al-Sabah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaber_Al-Ahmad_Al-Jaber_Al-Sabah)

[Abood]

so you come to someone like me who would vote socialist but instead im forced to vote democratic because voting socialist would just throw my vote away and a tyrant like bush would stay in office

well, why isnt there support? arent there socialists out there to support them? why dont they unite, meet up, have a plan.. why dont they stand against the other parties?!


Also please dont lecture us on how voting is a responsability....no shit....we relize this and certainly dont need to hear it from a 17 yo who would not even have a vote in the US.
i am not lecturing any1.. i am saying IF there ARE many socialists in the US, then why are they standing for democratic and republic party?! any big party can bring down any other big party.. it's just a matter of support.. and u CAN build up support. and yes, i know there are other parties, but theyre not dominant, why?! that's my question. if there are many socialists, then where are they?! THEY can build up support! u dont find support dangling from the skY... u build it up.. convinve people.. and more people. And the initial number of socialists, i dont see them...


But even more scary i more and more feel like the outside world looks at all americans as these patriotic red necks which is not the case.
i know that is not the case. i never said that they are patriotic. i knw tht there are many split it beliefs, but wut i dont understand is WHY dont they split up in ACTIONS?! u say socialist party wont win, the other socialists would say the same thing! imagine all the socialists actually VOTED for the socialist party.. what would happen?! and even if the socialist party didnt actually win, the number of votes for the other 2parties would decrease, drastically, and that means instead of it being a competition between 2parties, Dem and Rep, it could be between more!

[Abood]

to expatriot.

US$ 5 billion from Jaber's own funds were spent on the military campaign to liberate Kuwait.
well yeh, he wanted to liberate our country, his OWN country.. what wud u have done if u were in his place? stand empty-handed?!


During September of that year Jaber signed an agreement with the United States that permitted a large military presence in Kuwait.
have u seen what the Saddami soldiers (i am saying Saddami cuz i know not all iraqi people are supporters of Saddam), have u seen what they have done!? me personally, i would've been very much insecure about living in Kuwait without presence of soldiers.. the Saddami soldiers looted, killed, raped and done horrific things.

Adding on, the Amir of Kuwait is only a figure, like the Queen in the UK. But he was a great person personally... he started up funds in third world countries.
he also fought for women's rights...

Sheikh Jaber won the praise of human rights activists when he decreed in 1999 that women should have the vote and be eligible to run for office.However, conservatives and fundamentalist Muslims in parliament repeatedly kept his decree from being put into practice.He could have disbanded parliament to press his view, but did not.Six years later, in May 2005, parliament finally approved the legislation supported by the emir and the Cabinet appointed its first ever woman member.

first of all, the fact that he wanted women's rights.. can it get any better?! second of all, he actually allowed the parliament to have a say, eventhough he has the authority to give women's rights whenever he wants.. but he's patient, he gives his people some power. and in the end, the truth prevailed :)

moreover...

he set up the Fund for Future Generations - a financial safety net for Kuwaitis when the oil eventually runs out. So far, he has ensured 10 per cent of oil revenues go into the fund, now believed to be worth more than $60 billion.
caring for the future generations.. not many leaders' personalities i should say!

Also...

Bread and yoghurt often satisfied him at mealtime. He used to drive his own car to bustling bazaars and talk to shopkeepers, but changed his habits after a Shi'ite Muslim tried to assassinate him in a suicide car bombing in May 1985.
Someone modest.. a modest leader.. does that exist in great quantities?!


Sheikh Jaber unceremoniously fled Kuwait when Saddam's armoured columns invaded on Aug. 2, 1990, with orders to capture or kill him. He drove to Saudi Arabia, accompanied by most of his children and scores of senior members of the royal family.
Saddam wanted to kill him, and if he had have killed him, it wouldv'e been much easier to take over Kuwait.. well, i dont think being under Saddam's rule is a great thing, do u?!


"I just want a small tent in my country. I don't want palaces or luxury," he quoted the emir as saying.
qualities of a socialist, i should say!

i do not support the countries policies, but theyre not all up to him, theres a government thats corrupt...Kuwait in mourning... (http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/kuwait-in-mourning-as-ruler-dies/2006/01/15/1137259937274.html)

[expatriot]

I don't even know where to begin.


well yeh, he wanted to liberate our country, his OWN country.. what wud u have done if u were in his place? stand empty-handed?!

Sounds like this guy took off with the royal family so that the U.S. and the coalition could fight Saddam to liberate his country.


have u seen what the Saddami soldiers (i am saying Saddami cuz i know not all iraqi people are supporters of Saddam), have u seen what they have done!? me personally, i would've been very much insecure about living in Kuwait without presence of soldiers.. the Saddami soldiers looted, killed, raped and done horrific things.

Do you mean the presence of American Imperialist Soldiers?


the Amir of Kuwait is only a figure, like the Queen in the UK.

No, he's not, He's an absolute monarch from a dynasty that goes back 300 years.


first of all, the fact that he wanted women's rights.. can it get any better?

This comment speaks for itself. Did the Sheikh outlaw stoning of women for adultery?

[Abood]

Sounds like this guy took off with the royal family so that the U.S. and the coalition could fight Saddam to liberate his country.
<_< hes the president, and hes over 65years old at that time.. did u expect him to hold a gun and fight?&#33; a president isn&#39;t made to fight a war... that&#39;s the military&#39;s job. and its not like the US and the coalition were the only ones fighting, the Kuwaiti army was there too u knw... and if Saddam had killed the royal family, then he would take the whole of kuwait under control.


Do you mean the presence of American Imperialist Soldiers?
well so what if theyre imperialistic, they were there.. and we used them for our benefit... i dont kare who fought to liberate Kuwait, as long as that person knew what he was doing. it was a time of war - u do watever u can to get back to power. he didnt want Kuwait to go to Iraq... Kuwait is a liberated country and will always be :angry:


No, he&#39;s not, He&#39;s an absolute monarch from a dynasty that goes back 300 years.
Being in a dynasty does not mean hes an absolute monarch. YES, he did HAVE the power to control the whole country.. but he didnt control it. There&#39;s a parliament, and even if they refused his words, like the thing with women&#39;s rights, he still let their word go - so technically, it&#39;s a democracy&#33;


This comment speaks for itself. Did the Sheikh outlaw stoning of women for adultery?
who gave u the impression that stoning was legal?&#33; adultery is treated similarly, with men and women, in this country... and its punishment is imprisonment.

[expatriot]

I&#39;m just curious- it sounds as if you have it pretty good there, so why are you a socialist? I mean, you have financial security from this fund, women&#39;s rights, a democracy and I&#39;m sure you are getting an education and health care. It&#39;s good that you are idealistic and want to learn about politics from this forum.

Look brother, I&#39;m sorry for giving you a hard time but I think that before you blast other nations (like the U.S.) for not having a socialist government you should take a look at your own backyard. Maybe other countries need to stop following the U.S. and take their own stand. :)

[Abood]

well, honestly, its no way near as bad as the US, but, there IS corruption, MAJOR corruption. plus, the govt seems to be privatising evrything lately, im starting to hate it more.. lol
and well, honestly, in here no1 seems to protest, theyre either satisfied or brainwashed - i dunno. the thing i like about the US is that many people protest, and therefore theres potential for change. and well, if the US changed, evry1 will change. it&#39;s like the pivot for the whole world (if u knw wut i mean).

and well, about financial security, its not about me. i think im living in great condition, but ppl out there are suffering. thts y all my frends were asking why the hell im a socialist, cuz kuwait offers evrything to kuwaitis. but i just seem to care (hope that doesnt sound too conceited). i mean, theres no minimum wage here. the lower classes r barely surviving.

[expatriot]

There is corruption everywhere, in every form of government. The only government that works is no government&#33; I am an anarchist at heart. It&#39;s hard to live inside a society and not be a part of it because it affects everything- just driving to work involves a system, rules to obey and taxes to pay to keep it all going.

I am thinking of starting a tax revolt. The only way to change things I believe is not through violence but through civil disobedience. Protesting is a good thing but it doesn&#39;t get too much done. It does bring attention to the issue at hand and how the people feel about it. Disobedience to unjust laws works if you can get enough people to go along with it. This was how Martin Luther King and Ghandi helped to change things. But people have to be ready to go to jail for it.

A lot of communists on here would disagree with me and say that only a violent overthrow of an existing government would work, but in the U.S. it would be impossible unless the miitary took sides with the people and I don&#39;t imagine that ever happening.

During the Vietnam war so many people stopped going along with what the government was doing that they had to change. Americans are not going to stand for a long involvement in Iraq. It reminds too many people of Vietnam and they just won&#39;t stand for it again.

I was in Wash. DC last month and right across the street from the White House is a tent that has been there for 25 years. It&#39;s a protest stand and someone is always there either sleeping or just hanging out. They have signs and give out information about banning atomic weapons, etc. Now that&#39;s perseverance- 25 years and still going. I&#39;ll email you a picture if you&#39;d like to see it.

It&#39;s good to care about your fellow citizens. Is there anything that can be done about the minimum wage situation? Maybe you could write something publicly to bring attention to it.

[Kittie Rose]

It does bring attention to the issue at hand and how the people feel about it. Disobedience to unjust laws works if you can get enough people to go along with it. This was how Martin Luther King and Ghandi helped to change things.

Yes, that&#39;s true. I hate when people say "Oh if you don&#39;t agree with the law you should still respect it; it&#39;s the mature thing to do.", I&#39;ve heard this in regards to music piracy(not that I don&#39;t think musicians should be paid, just the way in which it currently works) and other such things. I mean, when Soddomy was illegal, did gay people not do it and "silently protest"? I never get an answer back from that one.

Yes I will break rules I think are absurd or unfair if I think I can get away with them(I&#39;m not stupid) and yes I will be upset and ***** and moan if I do, as I have every right to them.

Never try "Civil Disobedience" on messageboards/IRC channels though. The internet is one of the most authoratarian places I know.

[Abood]

There is corruption everywhere, in every form of government. The only government that works is no government&#33; I am an anarchist at heart.
yeh, i know, that&#39;s why im aiming for a world revolution. i think tht the world should be one nation. but about anarchy, i am about 80% anarchist, but its unrealistic to have no government, cuz u need something to hold ppl down or crime will take over. i think tht anarchism can take place, but not any time soon.. ppl need to learn their morals.


I&#39;ll email you a picture if you&#39;d like to see it.
yeh sure :D


Is there anything that can be done about the minimum wage situation? Maybe you could write something publicly to bring attention to it.
wow, i never thought of that.. i&#39;ll see if a beuracracy would listen to the voice of a 17yr old. thnx :D

[expatriot]

cuz u need something to hold ppl down or crime will take over.


I believe that we are conditioned to think that humans are basically immoral and without law enforcement will commit all sorts of heinous crimes. I believe that the opposite is true. I think human nature is basically good. Why do people commit crimes such as stealing? It&#39;s because you have something that they want. If everyone had enough of everything and worked together toward a common good than very little stealing would take place. Most crimes have to do with money in some form or other so if money was eliminated, crimes involving money would be eliminated.

Take murder, for example. In a society where there was no competition and pressure-just common goals, I think very few murders would take place.

Che Guevara had a vision for what he termed the 21st Century Man. A new type of human being that could rise above what society has conditioned us to be. I think it&#39;s important to develop your own independent thought, to think for yourself and discover the truth. It&#39;s not easy and given the constraints of society, family, school and work it&#39;s very easy to conform. To be a revolutionary thinker means to be prepared to go to jail for your beliefs.

You are 17 and on the right track. It&#39;s a very good thing to have a social conscience and to care about your fellow human beings.

[LA GUERRA OLVIDADA]

I thought everyone in Kuwait was rich as fuck..

[VictoryOverWar]

I believe that the opposite is true. I think human nature is basically good. Why do people commit crimes such as stealing? It&#39;s because you have something that they want.

crime only occurs when society is split between those who have and those who dont...i couldnt agree more

[Abood]

to expatriot:

I believe that we are conditioned to think that humans are basically immoral and without law enforcement will commit all sorts of heinous crimes.
i agree, but i believe that humans have been raised to be savage ppl and kill each other. its in our blood now. i think tht we need to be cleansed of such thoughts.. which will be chaotic, but in the long run, it&#39;ll be much better.

to la guerra olvidada:

I thought everyone in Kuwait was rich as fuck..
there are loads of rich ppl in kuwait, and i would say i&#39;m among the rich class..
but thts bcuz workers in kuwait arent kuwaiti, but are mostly asian and indian migraters who get paid less than &#036;100 a month. that is such exploitation and needs to be fixed.
and tht is why eventho kuwaiti ppl r very rich, kuwait is not the richest country in the world. if evry1 in kuwait was as rich as the average KUWAITI, then it would HELL be the richest country in the world.. lol...
but thts how tha country is run... it sux, and we gotta fix it.

[Abood]

Sup? i&#39;m 17 and i&#39;m a socialist - not much of a marxist though.
Changed: I have adopted marxism.


i think i&#39;m an anarcho-communist
Changed: maybe not... Libertarian Marxist... support "dictatorship of the proletariat" with no authority involved.

Just to let you know where I happen to stand after discussion and research.

[Orthodox Marxist]

Changed: maybe not... Libertarian Marxist... support "dictatorship of the proletariat" with no authority involved.


Glad to see you adopted Marxism Comrade.

[Abood]

maybe not... Libertarian Marxist
I didn&#39;t see the difference between Libertarian and Orthodox Marxism.
I would call myself an Orthodox Marxist. :)