Sooo... What's everyones opion on gun ownership?

[Notaleftist]

Just wondering, it's pretty much always a hot topic on most forums.

[More Fire for the People]

Every one should have the right to defend their lives and the masses have a right to be armed against the state.

[ReD_ReBeL]

hmm i dunno, it may be a bad thing, for example look at the US theres gun ownership and the US has high gun crime hence Gun Ownership so in practice it seems to be quite a bad thing in my opinion.
I live in the UK and theres no gun ownership nor are police allowed to have guns(apart from special circumstances) and theres is very few big gun crimes over here , so it seems to be working. Not perfect but better than the US.

[gewehr_3]

Under communism nothing is controlled by a government because there is no government. One should be able to have guns because gun control is fascist. I still have no clue why the american right supports guns and the american left doesn't.

I personally love guns and i am a leftist in america

[barista.marxista]

Gun ownership is a right of the people to defend themselves against state brutality. When the people lose their right to revolt against the government, they lose their freedom. If only the lackeys and the pigs of the ruling class are allowed guns, then they ultimately control all power, and abuse is inevitable.

In the US, we have to look at the social reasons why there is high gun crime. The US has a much larger division of classes than most social democracies such as Canada and the UK. In my city, Philadelphia, 25% of people live below the poverty line -- the line that was drawn in the 1960s, and, in 2003, was set at $18,810 for a family of four. Poverty increases the rate of crime, as people will go to extreme lengths to feed their family. It produces chronic drug problems, terrible socioeconomic conditions, a lack of social institutions, and ultimately the conditions ripe for gun crime. The solution isn't to nullify a right of the people -- the solution is to give people the right to food, health, and lodging. As obviously this cannot be sufficiently done under capitalism, socialism is the only way to eliminate problems like gun crime.

[Delirium]

I fully support and encourage gun ownership. It is neccessary that people be able to defend themselves from any malicious source, whether it be the government or criminals.

[bolshevik butcher]

I support peoples militias, as opposed to a state army.

[Delirium]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 15 2006, 07:28 PM
I support peoples militias, as opposed to a state army.
You'l enjoy this then :D

[VictoryOverWar]

Gun control is a tool of the capitalist to control its people. Untill the Government gives up there guns and police officers and military members no longer have them to push the capitalist agenda then yes i may think of giving mine up.


hmm i dunno, it may be a bad thing, for example look at the US theres gun ownership and the US has high gun crime hence Gun Ownership so in practice it seems to be quite a bad thing in my opinion.
I live in the UK and theres no gun ownership nor are police allowed to have guns(apart from special circumstances) and theres is very few big gun crimes over here , so it seems to be working. Not perfect but better than the US.

The government will claim that if there were no police and guns the people would be killing ourselves. But in reality these crimes only occur because society is split between those who have and those who do not.

[JKP]

"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the
symbol of democracy." -George Orwell

Remember all those workers and peasants during the spanish civil war?

Each of them had a rifle slung over their shoulder.

http://lacucaracha.info/scw/diary/1937/march/no_pasaran.jpg

Any revolutionary should recognize the need to arm the working class, not disarm it. If a movment can minimize bloodshed, fine. But you must be prepared to kill, for they wont hesitate to line you up against the wall. I think the history is self evident on that point.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

And do you really think the working class (that is, the lower working class, those most in need of a revolution) can afford a gun?

[Delirium]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 08:06 PM
And do you really think the working class (that is, the lower working class, those most in need of a revolution) can afford a gun?
It depends on what kind of lower class, ruran or urban?
In what country?
Illegal or legal arms?

Guns are not that expensive, and i know that the lower class around here certainly are well armed, they take pride in it.

[JKP]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 12:06 PM
And do you really think the working class (that is, the lower working class, those most in need of a revolution) can afford a gun?
That's another issue entirely.

[ItalianCommie]

I hate guns. They are specifically made FOR the killing of other human beings. The arms establishment also profits loads from it, too. And they are few.

If you really must have a gun, get a Russian one.

[VictoryOverWar]

And do you really think the working class (that is, the lower working class, those most in need of a revolution) can afford a gun?

man i could go out my front door right now and buy a gun for under 200 bucks.

but im curious what this would have to do with gun control. So your saying take them away since the working class does not have access to it, further limiting there chances of getting one in the first place???

[Delirium]

Man, you could get one for under $50 (minus rounds) if you live in the usa, just head down to a gun show, It wont be very good quality, but good enough to shoot some counter-revolutionaries. Dont parade the fact you are a leftist at a gun show though, you wont find many sympathic ears.

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 08:13 PM
If you really must have a gun, get a Russian one.
Whats so special about Russian weapons? How are they any better than Austrian or American (or any other countries) firearms?

[Bannockburn]

I'm generally in agreement with the positions posted here. Guns are tools for the people to protect and combat the abuse of the state and local government. However, if armed conflict did occur, say in the United States and its people, it would be like bull in a china shop. Granted, I can get my hands on some weapons, perhaps some explosives, but like I've said in the past: with the advent of modern military technology and weapons, there is no match between the force of government, and the force of its people.

[VictoryOverWar]

with the advent of modern military technology and weapons, there is no match between the force of government, and the force of its people.

I disagree completely...yes in open conflict it would be near impossible but with popular support the government would be hesitant to turn its own forces on the american people. Its not about facing them in open conflict its about making was so unapealing that you win the battle without ever going to war

[commiecrusader]

Originally posted by Dark Exodus+Jan 15 2006, 09:32 PM--> (Dark Exodus @ Jan 15 2006, 09:32 PM)
[email protected] 15 2006, 08:13 PM
If you really must have a gun, get a Russian one.
Whats so special about Russian weapons? How are they any better than Austrian or American (or any other countries) firearms? [/b]
I think the idea was that they might be commie era guns, but I doubt that this would be the case, unless you want a gun that is gonna be so old that it's not much use...

I advocate gun ownership but only if everyone has equal access to the weapons. At the moment gun ownership in America would seem to be a privilege to middle class white right wing people, from an outsiders perspective, and anyone poor or black who owns a gun is instantly a crim. This is wrong in my opinion, and they shouldn't be seen any differently.

[Sentinel]

I'd argue, like Michael Moore in Bowling for Columbine, that the huge
murder rate in the United States has it's roots in corporate and government propaganda inducing fear of your neighbours into hearts the American poor.
They are skillfully manipulating peoples minds, to the extent that people soon are afraid of their own shadows. :o
I believe that when a revolution has rid the US of this phenomenon, gun control will become unnecessary. It's not about having the right to own a gun, rather about the will to use one.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 04:06 PM
And do you really think the working class (that is, the lower working class, those most in need of a revolution) can afford a gun?
WW2 suprlus bolt action rifles can be aqquired for under $150. They can be rezeroed and worked on making it an effective fire arm.

[DisIllusion]

WW2 suprlus bolt action rifles can be aqquired for under $150. They can be rezeroed and worked on making it an effective fire arm.

Bolt-actions? People can buy full-automatic assault weapons in some cities, what good is a rusty old bolt action going to do against that?

[Delirium]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 10:45 PM

WW2 suprlus bolt action rifles can be aqquired for under $150. They can be rezeroed and worked on making it an effective fire arm.

Bolt-actions? People can buy full-automatic assault weapons in some cities, what good is a rusty old bolt action going to do against that?
One shot one kill, simple as that. Any bolt action rifle can be effective, under the right circumstances, and in trained hands.

[Luís Henrique]

The retaking of a right-wing theme - the "right to keep and bear arms" by the left is often comical.

"We need the guns to oppose State tyranny!" and so we should support Second Amendment. Because, of course, if we are going to make a revolution, we should make sure that we aren't breaking any laws while doing it - God forbid we use illegal weapons, steal guns, or uprise sections of the police or army... :blink:

More often, of course, privately owned guns are used to uphold and support the State and its laws. Including, and privilegiating, the sacred right to private property. Of which, of course, RKBA is just a corollary...!

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

I disagree completely...yes in open conflict it would be near impossible but with popular support the government would be hesitant to turn its own forces on the american people.

Don't believe that. Look back at your own history, it is not difficult to find those episodes when the State outright massacred American citizens to "restore order".

Luís Henrique

[Cullmac]

The American idea behind having a right to bear arms so they can overthrow a tyrannical government is comical in this modern world, i think the US government has bigger and more powerful weapons then any of us can buy.
But speaking as a communist i know i would feel safer with a gun under my bed for when the revolution comes :D

[Shredder]

It is not as simple as being pro or anti gun ownership. Gun ownership under present conditions only means workers killing eachother, kids killing eachother. It does not mean more gains for the working class or increased revolutionary thought and activities. There is nothing progressive about legal gun ownership under present conditions. It is not in our best interest to loosen any restrictions on gun ownership here and now.

But on the other hand, if there were a real working class movement anywhere in the "first world" today, our agenda would not be mere legal gun ownership, but actually the responsibility of arming the workers.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 11:26 PM
The American idea behind having a right to bear arms so they can overthrow a tyrannical government is comical in this modern world,
Maybe, but that is not even the idea.

The idea is, "being an well organised militia necessary..."

So it is meant that the citizens actually act as an auxiliary armed force of the State.

And that, for an exception, should be taken at face value!

Luís Henrique

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 06:45 PM

WW2 suprlus bolt action rifles can be aqquired for under $150. They can be rezeroed and worked on making it an effective fire arm.

Bolt-actions? People can buy full-automatic assault weapons in some cities, what good is a rusty old bolt action going to do against that?
We are speaking of workig class people here. A semi-auto ak costs around 300 dollars, out of a lot of peoples range. You also have to get more specific permits for this. Fully automatic weapons need very heavy permits and cost A LOT of money we are talking $1000's here, and they have to been made before a certain date (the 80's I think) so this is unrealistic for the average prole. However a working gun is whats needed, you can shoot bourgeoisie just as well with a bolt action rifle as with an assualt rifle, its not as if we are going to fight the army. Once we take control of army weaponry that will be distributed. What makes a bolt action rusty? They would be maintained.

[gewehr_3]

Weapons can be obtained very cheaply in africa. I read somwhere that the street value of an AK47 is around 8 USD.


On the subject of boltaction rifles. Please do not snicker I have a soviet WW2 mosin nagant and it is MUCH more accurate than any machine gun. plus the ammo can penetrate a ceramic plate in a kevlar vest. All this for $90

[Andy Bowden]

I used to be anti-gun, but now I'm all for a well disciplined Workers Millitia :)

[JKP]

Originally posted by Luís [email protected] 15 2006, 03:16 PM
The retaking of a right-wing theme - the "right to keep and bear arms" by the left is often comical.

"We need the guns to oppose State tyranny!" and so we should support Second Amendment. Because, of course, if we are going to make a revolution, we should make sure that we aren't breaking any laws while doing it - God forbid we use illegal weapons, steal guns, or uprise sections of the police or army... :blink:

More often, of course, privately owned guns are used to uphold and support the State and its laws. Including, and privilegiating, the sacred right to private property. Of which, of course, RKBA is just a corollary...!

Luís Henrique
All the evidence says that gun control has no effect on reducing crime.

Even that fat fuck Michael Moore admitted that guns weren't the problem.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by JKP+Jan 16 2006, 12:32 AM--> (JKP @ Jan 16 2006, 12:32 AM)
Luís [email protected] 15 2006, 03:16 PM
The retaking of a right-wing theme - the "right to keep and bear arms" by the left is often comical.

"We need the guns to oppose State tyranny!" and so we should support Second Amendment. Because, of course, if we are going to make a revolution, we should make sure that we aren't breaking any laws while doing it - God forbid we use illegal weapons, steal guns, or uprise sections of the police or army... :blink:

More often, of course, privately owned guns are used to uphold and support the State and its laws. Including, and privilegiating, the sacred right to private property. Of which, of course, RKBA is just a corollary...!

Luís Henrique
All the evidence says that gun control has no effect on reducing crime.

Even that fat fuck Michael Moore admitted that guns weren't the problem. [/b]
And exactly how does your post relates to mine?

Luís Henrique

[JKP]

Originally posted by Luís Henrique+Jan 15 2006, 05:03 PM--> (Luís Henrique @ Jan 15 2006, 05:03 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 12:32 AM

Luís [email protected] 15 2006, 03:16 PM
The retaking of a right-wing theme - the "right to keep and bear arms" by the left is often comical.

"We need the guns to oppose State tyranny!" and so we should support Second Amendment. Because, of course, if we are going to make a revolution, we should make sure that we aren't breaking any laws while doing it - God forbid we use illegal weapons, steal guns, or uprise sections of the police or army... :blink:

More often, of course, privately owned guns are used to uphold and support the State and its laws. Including, and privilegiating, the sacred right to private property. Of which, of course, RKBA is just a corollary...!

Luís Henrique
All the evidence says that gun control has no effect on reducing crime.

Even that fat fuck Michael Moore admitted that guns weren't the problem.
And exactly how does your post relates to mine?

Luís Henrique [/b]
It was aimed at Shredder not you.

I accidentally clicked your quote button.

Sorry.

[Red Sky Revolution]

Hmmm...good topic. Im not really sure. I think you should have to take a test to be able to own a gun. To determine if your mentally stable enough to have a gun without goin off killing inoocents.Ha. Mainly...I just think we need much better gun safety. That would help alot..I dont kno....im kind of stuck in the middle...my mom is a peace hippy and my dad was in the marines. So.....Im thinkin better safety.

[LA GUERRA OLVIDADA]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 08:06 PM
And do you really think the working class (that is, the lower working class, those most in need of a revolution) can afford a gun?
Where the fuck do you live dude. Most poor people already have guns for fucks sake, my dad got his first gun when he was 10, cost him like a few bucks.

[Commie Rat]

Maybe in the US guns may be easie to aquire but here in AUS and im sure in some part of Europe it would be extremly difficult
as far as im aware all semi-automatics are illegal in aus, need to be 18 to own a rifle of a handgun, need a clean police record, you need to show you licence at a gun shop just to but ammo, breaking any part of you licencing requirement is an arrestable offence and the fact that their is no game to hunt mean there is no real legit reason to have one

[Atlas Swallowed]

If the blue suited nazis and the armed assassins have guns, damn straight I am for gun ownership. It is easy to purchase guns illegaly in the USA. Gun control only controls those who obey the laws of the state, not criminals or those that disregard the laws of a corrupt government.

[Comrada J]

Guns are bad, they only cause more problems. I use a Katana for home-defense.

[Abood]

the first thing to do before any revolution is to ban guns. this would make opposers have no weapons to fight. it will be easier for the workers to revolt against them. then, during the revolution, workers can get a hand on guns and kill all the opposers. in that way, not many workers would be killed.

guns also provide a weapon to commit crime, and if there is no crime, there is no self defense, therefore, i believe that guns should be banned.

[commiecrusader]

the first thing to do before any revolution is to ban guns. this would make opposers have no weapons to fight. it will be easier for the workers to revolt against them.
This is a really interesting idea. The only thing is, how do you ban the guns before you have revolted and taken power?

[Abood]

This is a really interesting idea. The only thing is, how do you ban the guns before you have revolted and taken power?

that is a good question, but u can do that thru peace, before any action. for example, u can vote for it and it MIGHT succeed. this is not essential, however, for a revolution, but only keeps blood shed as low as possible

[commiecrusader]

To vote for it you have to force a referendum on it though and that is difficult. Plus I find it unlikely that anything like that will happen in America, with groups like the NRA and stuff. Isn't the right to a gun in the constitution of the US as well?

[Glasgow]

In America correct me if I am wrong but arent you more likely to be shot of youre own gun and the person shooting you is most likely to be youre ex.

I dont think the revelution can be wone with the gun we will have to youse our minds some of us are more heavily armed than others.

[JKP]

Originally posted by Socialist [email protected] 16 2006, 06:04 AM
the first thing to do before any revolution is to ban guns. this would make opposers have no weapons to fight. it will be easier for the workers to revolt against them. then, during the revolution, workers can get a hand on guns and kill all the opposers. in that way, not many workers would be killed.

guns also provide a weapon to commit crime, and if there is no crime, there is no self defense, therefore, i believe that guns should be banned.
Lol.

[Free Palestine]

Switzerland has one of the lowest crime rates in the world, while maintaining a rate of about 3 guns per household. It's also a society where kids as young as 12 years old are routinely taught to use assault rifles. If guns are the issue, how can Switzerland sport one of the largest gun ownership rates, but have one of the lowest crime rates? This is also a pretty accurate description of what the gun culture was like in the American colonies. Young boys were taught the proper use of guns, guns were fired in the air as a form of celebration, etc.


Originally posted by George Mason+--> (George Mason)"To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."[/b]


Thomas Jefferson
"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."

[Cult of Reason]

Unarmed revolutionaries are dead revolutionaries, therefore I support gun ownership. Unfortunately, this is a problem since I live in the UK.


As for the suggestion that guns should be banned before the revolution: there is absoutely no chance that the police or army will be disarmed, and most of their weapons will not be immediately seized at the revolution's start.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by Socialist [email protected] 16 2006, 10:04 AM
the first thing to do before any revolution is to ban guns. this would make opposers have no weapons to fight. it will be easier for the workers to revolt against them. then, during the revolution, workers can get a hand on guns and kill all the opposers. in that way, not many workers would be killed.

guns also provide a weapon to commit crime, and if there is no crime, there is no self defense, therefore, i believe that guns should be banned.
That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It doesnt make sense.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 11:21 PM
As for the suggestion that guns should be banned before the revolution: there is absoutely no chance that the police or army will be disarmed, and most of their weapons will not be immediately seized at the revolution's start.
I think he was talking about banning guns from the civilian population, which would prevent assaults on revolutionary positions by reactionary militias, and also serve to prevent bloodbaths if and when parts of the city collapse into chaos.

[comrade_mufasa]

I dont know if this is a quote from someone or I just heard it said once:
"It is disturbing when puppets of the state (the police and the military) can hold a weapon and look like saviors, but when a civilian holds a weapon they are criminals."

I am anti-gun control. Not becouse gun control makes it harder for revolutionaries to get wepons, becouse getting guns is never a problem, but becouse sane people who know what they hell they are doing and teach there kids that guns are Dangerous should be allowed to buy any gun they want. Have you ever noticed that those hillbilley kids that go hunting with thier faimly on the weekends are never the ones who accidently kill there friend becouse they didnt know how to use a gun. It is those kids who take thier dad's "security" gun (even the dad should not be trusted to fire it) out of the closet and shoots his friend becouse he didnt know where the saftey is or how to check if its loaded. The NRA is completly right when they say "Guns dont kill people, people kill people". I dont give if we are allowed to own heat or not couse the least of my problems is finding a piece.

[Loknar]

Guns aren’t the problem, our society is...

In Switzerland everybody has a gun, do you see many gun crimes there?

America has to fix its society. I'm all for guns , any rational person is too/ A gun is a tool much like a knife is, it can help you acquire food and if necessary kill things that threaten your safety.

[Iroquois Xavier]

Guns are a tool, they dont fire themselves, it is the person pulling the trigger. Dont blame guns for crime blame criminals. :D

[Vladislav]

Guns are a handy and useful tool in the right hands. In the wrong hands they are merely a tool of terror.

I am a gun freek, but thanks to the super strict laws in Australia I'll probably never own one although I have fired from a few.

Right now my only protection is a knife and my fists and hopefully no one comes across either of them. :lol:

[RebelOutcast]

As people have said guns don't kill people by themselves, someone has to pull the trigger, guns are just tools.

Vladislav, you double posted and apologised in another post making it a triple post, how ironic!
Just edit the second post next time.

[Vendetta]

Gun control sucks, because of many reasons, including the fact that criminals will be the only ones with guns.

[ItalianCommie]

Originally posted by Dark Exodus+Jan 15 2006, 08:32 PM--> (Dark Exodus @ Jan 15 2006, 08:32 PM)
[email protected] 15 2006, 08:13 PM
If you really must have a gun, get a Russian one.
Whats so special about Russian weapons? How are they any better than Austrian or American (or any other countries) firearms?[/b]
In the sense that that they're not controlled by greedy arms corporations. There are many arms cooperatives in Russia, and if you get lucky, you get one for a few bucks. You have no idea what an arms surplus is until you read a bit about Russia. However, no one can persuade me to have a gun in my cupboard just to let it get dust. We probably won't see a revolution in our countries in our lifetimes.

This is the time to educate the masses, not stack up the arms for THE Revolution... We might have to wait for a few decades or centuries for that...

[ItalianCommie]

I couldn't give a damn about arms control. All I care about at the moment is educating the people about socialism and communism. THEN talk about getting guns.

[JKP]

You can always go recreational shooting.

[boyden militiamen]

first of all if you can buy a gun and intend to use it i suggest whether you happen to be lower class or not investing an extra 100 dollars in a semi auto hunting rifle, bolt action rifles in modern circumstances are far to slow firing for tactical situations and geurrilla warfare, and fully auto rifles are far to inaccurrate unless used by someone who been fairly well trained and experienced with one.
secondly if you do not have access to a gun they can be made extremely easily, whether you convert a pellet rifle to fire .22's or a homemade muzzleloader, or decide to build an RPG, or mortar, all can be done fairly easily whit some knowledge of physics and firearms.
and for the record russian guns are actually often times of lower quality and precision than american made ones, ther only advantage is the cost.