[STUDY GROUP] Economics

[ComradeRed]

I've been told by popular demand that there is a desire to discuss Marxist economics. I'm willing to discuss the ideas in Das Kapital to all those here, but I would like to discuss more than "just that".

I would like everyone to discuss Ricardo's school of thought (and more specifically, the Neo-Ricardian School of thought -- PM me for materials on it) as a preliminary to Marx's thoughts. This drastically makes things easier!

I'll also try to aim this so that it is more mathematically oriented (though not a course of "Mathematical Economics"). Basically, it will incorporate algebra and "systems of equations". We will be discussing the ideas of pre-Marxist economists, Marx, "problems" with Marx's theories, and their resolutions.

So those of you who want to discuss the ideas...come on down!

[DisIllusion]

Das Kapital, Volume One (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/volume35/index.htm)

So there's the book, when should we get started and how fast should we go?

[ComradeRed]

Well, at first I would agree with you, let's start with Das Kapital! However, if you have read the first chapter, you would realize it isn't the funnest book on Earth. Nor the easiest for such a matter. Thus it is reasonable to begin with selections of a select few who influenced Marx's economic theories...largely the ones Marx thought to be scientific (viz. Ricardo and Smith). This makes it drastically easier to understand where Marx is coming from.

These include:
Ricardo, David (1817). Principles of Political Economy. Chapters 1 (http://marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/ricardo/tax/ch01.htm), 2 (http://marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/ricardo/tax/ch02.htm), 3 (http://marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/ricardo/tax/ch03.htm), 4 (http://marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/ricardo/tax/ch04.htm), 5 (http://marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/ricardo/tax/ch05.htm), 6 (http://marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/ricardo/tax/ch06.htm), 21 (http://marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/ricardo/tax/ch21.htm), and 31 (http://marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/ricardo/tax/ch31.htm).

Smith, Adam (1776). An Inquiry into the Wealth of Nations. Book 1 chapters 1 (http://marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-adam/works/wealth-of-nations/book01/ch01.htm), 2 (http://marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-adam/works/wealth-of-nations/book01/ch02.htm), 3 (http://marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-adam/works/wealth-of-nations/book01/ch03.htm); Book 2 chapters 1 (http://marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-adam/works/wealth-of-nations/book02/ch01.htm), 2 (http://marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-adam/works/wealth-of-nations/book02/ch02.htm), 3 (http://marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-adam/works/wealth-of-nations/book02/ch03.htm).

Sraffa, Piero (1925). On the Relation Between Costs and Quantity Produced (available here (http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/texts/sraffa/sraffa25.pdf) as a .pdf file).

Sraffa, Piero (1926). Law of Returns under Competitive Conditions (as a criticism of bourgeois economics, available (http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/texts/sraffa/sraffa26.htm) as html webpage).

Sraffa, Piero (1960). Production of Commodities by Means of Commodities: Prelude to a critique of economic theory (I know where you can get the important parts for our study group for free -- PM me!)

Now I know some may be looking at the publication dates and be prepared to say "Hey, 1926 isn't before 1861! How can Sraffa therefore be included?"

Sraffa is the father of the so-called "Neo-Ricardian" school of thought. It took some mathematical tools of the time and combined it with Ricardian economics. To me, as a mathematically savvy person, it thus makes perfect sense to include it.

He does simplify some of Ricardo's theories, but it appears in a somewhat "concentrated" form. That's my only warning! It's good but fairly foreign to a lay reader (thus it is good training for Das Kapital!).

[DisIllusion]

Well I am taking a business class, so I know basic Smith and Ricardian thought. Though it would be a good idea to start on those if all the people viewing this thread would decide to join in.

Do you have any links to those books online?

[ComradeRed]

I actually posted the links to the specific chapters (hence why they're underlined).

Also, if you want to look at this mathematically, think of it as one big word problem.

I'm writing a paper explaining matrices and some other stuff for those who do not understand it, so I'll post a link to it soon too.

[edited Links]: Mr Sraffa on Joint Production and Other Essays (http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=104179866) by Bertram Schefold
Sraffa search on Questia (http://www.questia.com/library/piero-sraffa.jsp) an index of many of his writings
Here is an interesting Analysis (pdf) (http://www.networkideas.org/featart/aug2002/Reading_Sraffa.pdf) of Sraffa's "philosophical underpinnings"
I have been informed that the Perron-Frebonius Theorem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perron%E2%80%93Frobenius_theorem) helps a lot (for the one other mathematician out there)

Those are the additional links...

[Amusing Scrotum]

Shall we start with say Principles of Political Economy (the chapters ComradeRed highlighted) and say by next Sunday read those and then start a thread discussing them?

[DisIllusion]

EDIT: All right.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 10:24 PM
Sounds good, and what if we need to contact each other for help in between discussions? Instant Messengers anyone?

We'll of course have to wait and see what Teacher Red says. :lol:

Anyway, I think everyone who is interested in this should be able to at least up to around chapter 5 or 6 (a couple of the chapters are really short) and then we can get cracking.

About contacting each other, well.... PM's would be fine, though my MSN address is in the Commie Club thread (I think) and DisIllusion, you may want to remove your address in case someone less than desirable gets hold of it. This forum is watched by Nazi's. :o

[Amusing Scrotum]

I've started the first thread -- Principles of Political Economy Chapter 1, is fighting for higher wages useless? (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?act=ST&f=68&t=45146&st=0#entry1292005211) -- it's not necessarily tied in with everything, just something in Chapter 1 that struck me as particularly interesting.

[ComradeRed]

Also, I am rethinking the structure of this study group as solely looking at Ricardo and Marx (for less reading). Does anyone really object to this?

Another time I will address a more organized attempt to integrate math into Das Kapital. This study group will be concerned with reading Ricardo's Principles (because it's easy!) and Marx's Das Kapital (volume one).

Though I do highly recommend (though do not "require") reading of the other linked articles I posted.

[VictoryOverWar]

is it to late to get started with you guys????? i just ran into this study group and would love to join in with you all

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by ComradeRed+Jan 17 2006, 02:46 AM--> (ComradeRed @ Jan 17 2006, 02:46 AM) Also, I am rethinking the structure of this study group as solely looking at Ricardo and Marx (for less reading). Does anyone really object to this? [/b]

Not at all. The last few weeks I've had quite a bit on, so I haven't read nearly as much as I would have liked. :(


VictoryOverWar
is it to late to get started with you guys?????

Nope. :)

Just start reading the pieces that Comrade Red recommended.

[ComradeRed]

Right, now I've reduced it down to only Ricardo (because of my laziness :P ) if anyone wants to discuss the others, feel free to start a thread on it.

ANd it never is "too late" to join in. ;)

[PRC-UTE]

Thank you for doing this, ComradeRed. This is something I've wanted to do, delve into Marxist economics, but find it a daunting task.

[vox_populi]

Count Me In!

In which thread are we discussing? Is it in the "Principles of Political Economy Chapter 1, is fighting for higher wages useless?" thread that Armchair Socialism started?

[ComradeRed]

Well, we are on Ricardo's Principles of Political Economy, but I am getting more tempted to say "Fuck it, let's just read Capital now!"

But we are working in the thread "Principles of Political Economy" (I think that's the name of it ;)).

[edit] By the by, I stumbled upon this gem: A new Textbook (http://www.i6doc.com/I6Doc/WebObjects/I6Doc.woa/wa/DocumentDA/document?language=EN&d=1007074) in Marxist economics written by a Marxist that is free! :o

[vox_populi]

Thanks man!

I'll try to catch on!

[Tormented by Treachery]

I'll do some mad reading now that I'm on vacation (and done with yearbook, yay!)

Let's start this up :) .

First six chapters by sunday the 19th or 26th?

[ComradeRed]

I think by next Saturday (the 25th?) we'll begin discussing section 1 of chapter 1 of Das Kapital, if no one minds...

[Entrails Konfetti]

I wont be around on here on the 25th, I've already read Das Kapital , and I'm interested in contributing to the dicussion, I don't know how much I've forgotten of that book, perhaps this dicussion will spring cues from my memory. However I've yet to read anything by Ricardo, and a neglected, unwrinkled copy of Wealth of Nations sits on my bookshelf as I'm reading The Peoples History of the World.

So what exaclty is needed for this discussion, and how do we discuss it?

[ComradeRed]

So what exaclty is needed for this discussion, and how do we discuss it? There are two things that I have in mind: 1. An introduction to marxist economics for those who don't know it (help is definately needed on the first chapter of Kapital for all who read it the first time), and 2. Possibly a mathematical-ization of Marxist economics (maybe?).

The latter reason is why I am doing it ;) I need to get re-acquainted with Kapital more in depth, which is why I am doing the first option. If anyone would like to discus the second option, I'd be more than willing to expand this discussion to it :)

[Tormented by Treachery]

Hmm, I thought we were doing Ricardo first? No matter, I'll have read a bunch by then. CR (henceforth as thou shalt be known as :)), would you mind a point-by-point simplification of the ideas put forth by him? I feel as though I'm grasping most of it, but it's not exactly the lightest of 'reads.'

[ComradeRed]

Which Ricardo or Marx? If it's Ricardo, I'll just put the relevant stuff somewhere.

[Tormented by Treachery]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 04:06 PM
Which Ricardo or Marx? If it's Ricardo, I'll just put the relevant stuff somewhere.
Ricardo, because I thought that was what's up first.

[ComradeRed]

A checklist! :lol:
Without a product having utility, there is no value.
Value is, most of the time, determined by labor (for small things like paintings, etc. "supply and demand" plays the role).
When the markets are in equilibrium, commodities exchange for the amount of value in them
Under capitalism, the ability to perform work (labor power) has itself become a commodity
In production, labor transfers its value directly to the production, while the commodities used up in produciton transfer their value indirectly.

That's the main points ;) other than that, it's just interesting reading

[Tormented by Treachery]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 02:15 AM
That's the main points ;) other than that, it's just interesting reading
Nice list :lol:

I'll just ask my specific questions as we go through. Some of it makes my brain say "ouch". But then again, I am accustomed to the senseless drivel that is school textbook.

[KC]

When's this starting?

[bezdomni]

Formula for exchange value.

M-C-(M+dM) [dM=change of M]

This is the non-traditional way in which commodities are traded under capitalism. This is the opposite of the "traditional" exchange under capitalism, which is C-M-C.

Under C-M-C, a commodity is sold (such as labor) for money, that money is then traded for another commodity (such as food).

Under M-C-M (bourgeois exchange), Money is sold for a commodity, and then that commodity is sold for more money. The second exchange must be greater than the first exchange in order for capital to be produced. This is the basis of the theory of surplus value, which I will post about later.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

So what became of this study group?

[CheRev]

No idea. But if anyone wanted to do a group like this again I'd be on for it...

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by Spirit of [email protected] 31, 2007 01:16 pm
So what became of this study group?
Study groups regularly just die like this or don't start. I tried to start a Quotations from Mao Zedong study group sometime ago and we didn't get past like the 5th quote in the book. Now I want to do a What is to be done? one (See thread 2 below this one)

[Issaiah1332]

Hey...sadly, I just now saw this study group. Is it too late to join in? :(

[Janus]

It's never too late to start it back up again. This study group fell apart after the first chapter discussion:
http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=46656

[blackstone]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2006 10:43 pm
Formula for exchange value.

M-C-(M+dM) [dM=change of M]

This is the non-traditional way in which commodities are traded under capitalism. This is the opposite of the "traditional" exchange under capitalism, which is C-M-C.

Under C-M-C, a commodity is sold (such as labor) for money, that money is then traded for another commodity (such as food).

Under M-C-M (bourgeois exchange), Money is sold for a commodity, and then that commodity is sold for more money. The second exchange must be greater than the first exchange in order for capital to be produced. This is the basis of the theory of surplus value, which I will post about later.
No, thats M-C-M'
Where M' is greater than M because M equals M plus m. With, m being surplus value.

Just so we don't confuse beginner Marx economists.


I don't care if me and ComradeRed are the only ones interested, i'm giving rebirth to this thread!

[blackstone]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2006 10:26 pm
Well, we are on Ricardo's Principles of Political Economy, but I am getting more tempted to say "Fuck it, let's just read Capital now!"

But we are working in the thread "Principles of Political Economy" (I think that's the name of it ;)).

[edit] By the by, I stumbled upon this gem: A new Textbook (http://www.i6doc.com/I6Doc/WebObjects/I6Doc.woa/wa/DocumentDA/document?language=EN&d=1007074) in Marxist economics written by a Marxist that is free! :o
I really enjoy this textbook from what i've been reading so far. I know there is a study group for Capital, but i wanted to know if there's anyone wanting to do a study group for this book?

[blackstone]

double post. sorry.