Removal of Saddam

[chamo]

Comrades, it is clear that Saddam Hussein is the Stalin or Batista of the Middle East. He is completly undemocratic and must be removed but how, apart from war.
We have decided that the proposed war, and it is looking inevitable, is thinly disguised imperialism and a war for oil over people. If we are to be able to stand up to Bush and Blair, then we need to address our weak points, and that is that we do not have another method (as far as I know) to remove Hussein and return Iraq to democracy, in the true meaning of the word, and not the American style.
If America was to take over and "liberate" Iraq, they would be made but a puppet nation for America, created only to serve it's oil purposes, so we need to act before this happens.
The problem is Saddam's military power. His army is poorly paid, but they need the money as the country is so much in poverty and may stay loyal and quash any uprising. I am sure that he also has a elite guard that are higher paid and would be loyal to him anyway.

A proposed plan would be an uprising, but from within the country with little foreign political intervention and a method to ensure that imperialist countries do not profit or take over. How would the people try and suceed and what help may they need? Are there better ideas?

Please debate and present new ideas.

[canikickit]

People should never interfere in other cultures.

[chamo]

Yes, but it is a culture where ordinary people have no power and is controlled and obliterated by one man. Culture simply doesn't survive in totalitarian countries, the culture will be what that man is or what he makes it to be.


(Edited by happyguy at 5:32 pm on Mar. 10, 2003)

[Dhul Fiqar]

Quote: from happyguy on 5:32 am on Mar. 6, 2003
He is completly undemocratic and must be removed but how, apart from war.......
...we do not have another method (as far as I know) to remove Hussein and return Iraq to democracy


I think you need to brush up on Iraqi history and modern politics in the Middle East. It is not possible to "return Iraq to democracy" because it has never been one, our notion of "democracy" is almost totally a Western concept experienced by Western nations.

Also, the "undemocratic" argument is pretty weak, imho. Why force Iraq to have elections before anyone else? Why not Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Yemen, Syria, Jordan, China, Cuba, Bielorussia, Cambodia, Malaysia, Singapore, etc. etc. etc.

I'm sorry but I think all this talk about "something must be done about Iraq" is ridiculously out of context with the rest of the world and the state it's in. Iraq can take care of itself much better than dozens (if not a hundred) of other countries around the world.

[Beccie]

I agree with happyguy, Saddam's regime needs to be gotten rid of, but I don't think it can be done peacefully.

Do you care about Iraqi civilians and Kurds, dhul? You seem to be saying that nothing can be done about their situation so we might as well forget about them whilst they suffer in that hell-hole.

[Revolution Hero]

Happyguy, did you ask Iraqis if they want to exercise power? Each citizen of Iraq has Kalashnikov, the population is armed and they have all opportunities to revolt against "undemocratic" regime. Instead of doing this, Iraqis express their loyalty to Saddam and his government.
Imperialists raised the talks about democracy. We don't need to accept their propaganda as an ultimate truth. Bourgeois "democracy", which imperialists want to settle in Iraq is not democracy; it would be truly undemocratic puppet regime, functioning in the interests of US.
After all not any state has the right to interfere in the internal affairs of another state, dictating it what to do in order to illusively raise the democratic standards.

[Sovietsky Souyuz]

If the US must interfere, even if it is for bloody oil, why dont they enlist the SAS or RANGERS to take out saddam, instead of bombing the crap out of civilians ?

[chamo]

Sorry, return was a bad choice of words.
I do not see democracy in my case as imperialist, it would be a grass roots democracy with power to the people of Iraq. Yes, there are other undemocratic countries, and it is fucking undemocratic, but Saddam does kill his own people, remember, and also if we are to avert an imperialist war, then we have to counter it with new ideas that will not cost blood-shed.
How do you see Iraq as "undemocratic"? I could remind you that the only person people are allowed to vote for is Saddam. How many people have a say in how the country is run? Most of the citizens are scared into defending Hussein, or their sense of loyalty is completly blind. I doubt very much that the people who say they are loyal are actually loyal.

A revolution would not be interfering with another country's culture. On the contrary, it would be helping it. Culture is suffocated in a totalitarian country, if one man runs it, then the culture is what that man makes it. Iraq cannot take care of itself, there is something called "UN sanctions", medicine and insignificant things like pencils are not allowed into Iraq as they could be used in the event of chemical war.
I say this because I want to help the suffering people in Iraq, not because I want them to become part of the UN, or become a puppet country for the Western world. Somehow I do not think a country is democratic when one man has all the power!
Any help given would not be political diplomacy coming from Western or any other country, Che helped out with revolutions in Congo, Bolivia etc. There would be very little "interferance", it would be mainly up to the Iraqi people to liberate their country from it's dictator.

[redstar2000]

Apparently, the capitalist media has repeated the mantra often enough now--"Saddam must go!"--that even lefties are taking it seriously.

Why?

Not why must Saddam go...why should any communist accept, even in theory, a war-slogan of U.S. imperialism?

Iraq is unquestionably a shit-hole...so are many other places.

If we were talking about a communist revolutionary movement in Iraq, that would be a different matter. Of course, we would do anything we could to support it.

Since that's not the situation, why should it concern us that the U.S. ruling class is preparing to "terminate with extreme prejudice" its one-time ally and has mounted a world-wide propaganda campaign to justify its treachery?

The best analogy that occurs to me is a really bad "Mafia movie"...the big boss (America) is pissed off at the little boss (Iraq) because the little boss wanted a bigger slice of the loot. All talk of humanitarian concerns by the U.S. and its supporters is pure rhetoric--smoke and mirrors.

With the revelation of the "shock and awe" plan, it is clear that the U.S. intends a massive display of destructive power to intimidate the entire world into obedience. As was said of the imperial Romans, America will make a desert and call it "peace".

We communists are not in any way obligated to furnish excuses for that or provide "alternative" ways for America to gain its objectives.

Admittedly unlikely, the best thing that could come out of this war, from the communist standpoint, is a massive, catastrophic defeat of the United States.

if only...

:cool:

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Who are you to decide if Iraq has democracy or not?

All you can do is propagandizing your point of views and hope that people choose your side and will raise against their authoritarian government.

The only ones who can decide that Saddam has to go is the Iraqi people, not you or some prick in Washington.

If a majority of the people of Iraq would oppose Saddam and ask Saddam to fullfill their demands and Saddam (the minority) would refuse to let the majority free, then armed struggle is justified and support to the majority would be justified.

Not if 90% supports him and you invade Iraq or kill Saddam to liberate the Iraqis. In that case, which it is right now, you're the agressor, because you're handling against the majority, trying to put your own will on them by means of force.

[Ze]

Happyguy, you give Che's expeditions as an example, but you neglect to acknowledge that he went without Cuba's endorsement. He did not believe in foreign governments interfering with other nation's right to self determination because the 'liberating' capitalist government would no doubt mold the outcome in favor for their own country before the benefits of the 'liberated' country and region in the long run.

(Edited by Ze at 9:13 pm on Mar. 6, 2003)

[Latin America]

NICELY say it redstar2000!!! I fully agreed with you! It is true camarada, there are many places in the world and they even have a demecratic system and they still are shit holes! The US only abjective in Iraq is "oil" in my point of view!!!

[LeonardoDaVinci]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 3:16 pm on Mar. 6, 2003
If we were talking about a communist revolutionary movement in Iraq, that would be a different matter. Of course, we would do anything we could to support it.



So I get it, unless a particular society adopts our creeds and ideology, then we would not give a shit about what they are going through???

Regardless of America's imperialist war (which I do agree is for oil and strategic influence), many leftists on this site seem to be totally oblivious to the suffering of the Iraqi people.

redstar2000.
You are asking WHY Saddam must go. I'll tell you why,

1. Because Saddam and his Al Baath party came to power with the aid of the CIA which helped oust the POPULAR government of the liberal Iraqi leader Abdul Karim Qasim who was a communist sympathiser.

2. Because he is a tyrant who had no qualms about waging war on two of his neighbours (not propaganda, FACT). Of course, the first one against Iran was supported by the US and hence we heard nothing about the poor Iranian casualties of that war. Many of whom were the victims of biological weapons provided by Donald Rumsfeld.

3. Because after the Gulf War, the Iraqi people truly believed that the Americans were going to help them, and thus at the request of the US government rebelled against the government of Saddam Hussein, only to be let down by F**king Bush senior. As a result, Saddam massacred between 150,000-300,000 Iraqis in Al Nasiryia, Najaf and the Arab Marshlands.

I do not believe anything that the American propaganda machine throws at me. But the above tragedies are facts that the left has been turning a blind eye on for a long time. You should not believe US propaganda nor should you believe that of Saddam Hussein. Although he's not 'our son of a *****' anymore. He's still a murderous son of a ***** that has been unleashed by the US government and has managed to transform Iraq from a flourishing and relatively advanced state to the wretched state that it is in now.

I disdain the American government just as much as anyone of you here. But to rally behind the despotic Saddam just because he's standing up to America is to ignore the decades of murder, torture and subjugation that he has inflicted upon the Iraqi people and in a way is becoming an accessory to those crimes.

Many of us here are just happy to sit back and discuss one useless topic after another in this website. But in all honesty, when it comes to really difficult issues, you are just content to sit back and display your anti-americanism rather than any meaningful socialist traits. To turn your backs on the suffering of the Iraqi people is the moral equivalent of turning your backs on your socialist ideals which revolve around the belief that respect for human life and equality must be preserved for all.

FUCK AMERICA, FUCK SADDAM, IT'S ABOUT THE IRAQI PEOPLE.

[socialist ballistix]

FUCK AMERICA, FUCK SADDAM, IT'S ABOUT THE IRAQI PEOPLE.
hells yea, bro. I dont think i could have said it ne better. This is wut we're all about. I think that the Iraqis are capable of making their own system work. If we do tke out saddam, which we WONT,( REMEMBER Afghanistan! we bombed those hills for months and osama is still alive) the iraqis should b left to their own devices. They have the power to mke their own government work by their freakin selves.

[chamo]

If we were talking about a communist revolutionary movement in Iraq, that would be a different matter. Of course, we would do anything we could to support it.

Yes, this is what I am talking about, if the Iraqi people want communism.

The only ones who can decide that Saddam has to go is the Iraqi people, not you or some prick in Washington.

Do you think the Iraqi people want Saddam? I think not, they think not. I am not entirely certain if the people there love their muderous dictator who tests out chemical weapons on his own people. The only reason that they show support for him is that they risk persecution if they don't. That is why so many people leave Iraq and come to Britain as immigrants from risking persecution. These people are then free to speak their minds of Saddam, if their famalies are not still in Iraq, and they all say that the people there are not in favour of his regime, some even support the American war!

Not if 90% supports him

I am sure that they do not, they only declare it in the elections where they are FORCED to vote for him.

Happyguy, you give Che's expeditions as an example, but you neglect to acknowledge that he went without Cuba's endorsement. He did not believe in foreign governments interfering with other nation's right to self determination because the 'liberating' capitalist government would no doubt mold the outcome in favor for their own country before the benefits of the 'liberated' country and region in the long run.

When did I say that I wanted my country's government to liberate Iraq?? I clearly stated that I wanted a grass roots democracy arrising in Iraq, some foreign help may be necessary from individuals, not capitalist governments. Che was not Cuban either was he? yet he liberated Cuba from Batista in much the same situation that Iraq is in.

People, am I not allowed to say that I want Saddam out because America do? though for different reasons. It should be clear to you that Saddam is not a very good token of democracy in any context and that the people of Iraq do not want him.
It seems some of you think that everyone in Iraq loves him because the elections show it.
It is now clear that I am 100% behind Bush's war!! All hail Bush and Blairs' Christian morals and their war for democracy. Let's set up Iraq as a Coca-Cola bottling country, yes that's right!!



(Edited by happyguy at 10:51 pm on Mar. 6, 2003)

[mentalbunny]

You all seem to have interesting things to say, I particularly liked Leonardo da Vinci's post, I haven't seen you around before, nice to meet you.

There are many places where people are suffering, but Iraq is the one on the front page so lets deal with that first, we aren't doing ourselves or anyone else any faviours if we take redstar's attitude, although I think it is quite valid.

The plight of the Iraqi people is staring us in the face, lets deal with this, then sort out the US and get corporate America to behave, then we'll have more chance of benefitting more people, but right now the issue of Iraq is unavoidable.

[chamo]

Thank you mentalbunny. I stated that if we were to avoid war on Iraq, then we had to act now with alternatives, I said that if we wanted to give the Iraqi people true democracy we had to help.
Iraq is what is on the news all the time and is maybe one of the worst countrys in terms of genocide. I know little more about the other countrys that Dhul Fiqar mentioned, their situation is not as serious as Iraq's and they are not as much in the limelight as Iraq is.
I also loved Leonardo da Vinci's post, some good information there. I do want to help with Iraqi peoples' situation, I do not want my government to do it for me or with me, I want to show my support for THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ, NOT ANY FOREIGN GOVERNMENT'S INTENTIONS.

3. Because after the Gulf War, the Iraqi people truly believed that the Americans were going to help them, and thus at the request of the US government rebelled against the government of Saddam Hussein, only to be let down by F**king Bush senior. As a result, Saddam massacred between 150,000-300,000 Iraqis in Al Nasiryia, Najaf and the Arab Marshlands.

This is why I am against any foreign government's intervention or proposed "help". However, we, as leftists could not stand about while the Iraqi people struggle against their dictator and that is why I called upon you for advice and help in the first place, but it seems to have gotten turned around into a "who's right" debate.

[mjd]

Alot of people here seem to be so anti-american that they are willing to accept the keeping in place of a murderous dictator just because America wants him out.

[hawarameen]

according to redstar it doesnt matter how many people are dsuffering as long as another country doesnt make some money, money is more important than peoples suffering.

if however the people of iraq are willing to be communists then thats ok, because we will help communists they are nice people.

redstar would also make a point of wishing that the us looses a war so that saddam hussain (a very missunderstood man by all accounts) has even more power.

CCCP - in iraq if you vote for someone else (incidently there is only one box to tick) dont worry the police know where you live and they will be visiting.

also i am sure that Mr. Hussain is behaving the way he is because he thinks people like it.
i am also sure that if people write him a letter or petition then he will duely appologise for any inconvenience caused.

Leanardo - well done friend very well put, i really belive that what most of the arguments boil down to is anti-americanism. and i have to say i am anti american, BUT i value the liberation of the iraqi people ahead of another country's money making venture.

[redstar2000]

Hey, folks, you want to figure out some way to remove Saddam Hussein, go ahead and try. You'll be shot at by both sides, but I don't guess that bothers you much.

Or if it is human suffering in the abstract that bothers you, there's lots of "a-political" relief organizations that you can hook up with. And there will be plenty of work for you to do. (Guess you've already forgotten the human suffering in Afghanistan? It may still be going on, but it's not in the headlines any more, is it? And we all know that only "headline suffering" is really real, don't we?)

In a capitalist/imperialist world, human suffering is universal. Is it only a coincidence that the human suffering that you are so concerned about is happening in a country that U.S. imperialism has immediate and direct designs on?

Let's suppose you could achieve your absurd desire. You manage to arrange a peaceful transition from Hussein to a regime that is sufficiently pliable to submit to the most carnivorous U.S. demands. Congratulations!

With a demonstrated competence on that scale, you will all be certain of U.S. State Department appointments within a week of the transfer of power in Iraq. Just in time to go to work on Venezuela!

And all through your careers, you can stroke yourselves for all the "human suffering" you are "preventing".

"...unless a particular society adopts our creeds and ideology, then we would not give a shit about what they are going through?"

Those are not the words I would have chosen, but what's the alternative? Try to "help" U.S. imperialism achieve its goals in a "less destructive" way?

Communism is not a charity.

:cool:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 8:16 pm on Mar. 6, 2003)


(Edited by redstar2000 at 8:19 pm on Mar. 6, 2003)

[Guest1]

well, my aunt lives in iraq, and I have to say, no one likes him. No one, the only people who do like him are opportunists who are making money. But the arab people are perfectly capable of overthrowing their governments. In the fifties there was about 2 coups every year in syria. The problem is when countries interfere, people are discouraged. The biggest argument against pro-democracy movements across the middle-east is that they are funded by the CIA. Know why? America wants to avoid a democratic middle east at all costs. That's why they send CIA operatives to be seen with pro-democracy activists by the local intelligence services. That's why they encouraged the people to rise up in iraq, promising support, and then let them burn. That discouraged any movement.

Leave things be, not because I like saddam, but because interference will only mean that whatever improvements will be seen as foreign meddling and there is not trust of the west there.

[canikickit]

I find it extremly depressing and very very stupid that so many people feel that because we do not support removingSaddam from power by foreign means, means that we wish to see the suffering under him continue. I'd put that on the same level of intelligence of Bush's "with us or against us" credo.

I would support an overthrow similar to that of the Cuban revolution, which relied heavily on the assistance of the people, and was popularily supported, but I think more harm would come than could of any form of foreign interference.

[Tasha]

Nobody can tell a sure way to topple saddam however with time i am certain that more opportunities will find their way. As far as war goes, it is out of the question. Bloodthirsty imperialists are no better than saddam. They will kill innocents for profit.

[Beccie]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 3:16 pm on Mar. 6, 2003
Apparently, the capitalist media has repeated the mantra often enough now--"Saddam must go!"--that even lefties are taking it seriously.

Why?

Not why must Saddam go...why should any communist accept, even in theory, a war-slogan of U.S. imperialism?

Iraq is unquestionably a shit-hole...so are many other places.

If we were talking about a communist revolutionary movement in Iraq, that would be a different matter. Of course, we would do anything we could to support it.

Since that's not the situation, why should it concern us that the U.S. ruling class is preparing to "terminate with extreme prejudice" its one-time ally and has mounted a world-wide propaganda campaign to justify its treachery?

The best analogy that occurs to me is a really bad "Mafia movie"...the big boss (America) is pissed off at the little boss (Iraq) because the little boss wanted a bigger slice of the loot. All talk of humanitarian concerns by the U.S. and its supporters is pure rhetoric--smoke and mirrors.

With the revelation of the "shock and awe" plan, it is clear that the U.S. intends a massive display of destructive power to intimidate the entire world into obedience. As was said of the imperial Romans, America will make a desert and call it "peace".

We communists are not in any way obligated to furnish excuses for that or provide "alternative" ways for America to gain its objectives.

Admittedly unlikely, the best thing that could come out of this war, from the communist standpoint, is a massive, catastrophic defeat of the United States.

if only...

:cool:








I just want to make it clear that I am in no way pro-war. I did not accept the US war slogan, I see straight through George W’s campaign. How else can I say that Saddam is an brutal dictator that needs to be overthrown? No one can deny the suffering of the Iraqi people, weather it be at the hands of the Americans or their leader.

I strongly oppose America’s stance on war but I do not agree with Saddam either. Is it possible to stand against both?

[Revolution Hero]

Wake up! Do you really believe in democracy? Tell me what is better Bush's regime or Saddam's? You say that you want democracy for Iraq, but the only democracy there could be is bourgeois democracy and this means that US will rule over it.
If you say that you want socialist democracy then I completely agree with you, but socialist democracy is one party rule, so I don't think you will support this kind of democracy.
It's time for you to decide if you want to give power to bourgeois class or not. Any bourgeois bastard is not better than Saddam, moreover the first can be even worse.

[Disgustipated]

The one thing that drives me crazy lately is all this rhetoric about Iraq being an undemocratic regime and so on and so on. Well, I live in the US and we don't have a president that was elected by the popular vote but was installed by the conservative supreme court. If anyplace is undemocratic, it's this place.

Every nation on the planet should have the ability to be self determining. It's not the US' business to police the world and install US puppet governments.

Saddam may or may not be a horrendous leader, but frankly, it's none of our business. The middle east is filled with bad regimes and monarchies. Israel is trying to exterminate the Palestinians and since the Palestinian land is not recognized as a state, then Israel in essence is also killing their own. And yet no media coverage here calls Sharon a cold blooded killer or compares the Palestinians struggle to the Kurds struggle.

One mans terrorist dictator another mans democratic state right? Sorry for the rant.

[chamo]

Revolution Hero Posted on 10:13 am on Mar. 7, 2003
Wake up! Do you really believe in democracy? Tell me what is better Bush's regime or Saddam's? You say that you want democracy for Iraq, but the only democracy there could be is bourgeois democracy and this means that US will rule over it.
If you say that you want socialist democracy then I completely agree with you, but socialist democracy is one party rule, so I don't think you will support this kind of democracy.
It's time for you to decide if you want to give power to bourgeois class or not. Any bourgeois bastard is not better than Saddam, moreover the first can be even worse.

Interesting points, but I do bit believe that socialism must have one-party rule. The British Welfare system, for example, could work well in Iraq, if under responsible leadership. Also one-part rule need not be undemocratic. The party could play out the requests of the people and a leftist doctrine could ensure that corruption does not take place.
I do not believe in bourgeois democracy either, there is no such thing. I am not talkin about Bush's war here, I'm talking of an Iraqi uprising.


Bloodthirsty imperialists are no better than saddam. They will kill innocents for profit.

Fuckin hell? Does anyone even read what the topic is about? I do not support America's War; neither do I support Saddam Hussien. I do not have to support one or the other, there are other options. What gets me is that some leftists have to support Saddam Hussien, because America does not, even if it is for their miscreditious deeds.

It is quite simple here, not simple enough for some so I will but it in point form:

1. Do nothing and let the Iraqi people continue to live under their genocidal dictator whom they do not love.

2. Do nothing and let America stomp all over the fucking place and turn it into another puppet state, a tool of their own pockets.

3. Support an uprising by Iraqi people, for their own good and democracy far from America's view of it. A socialist government if you will.

[Latin America]

Hey Happy Boy listen!!! If we let the USA FUCK with IRAQ and if they take “Saddam out of power”; guess what in the fuck they going to do later, FUCK with North Korea, may be Venezuela and then so on and on! (They did it to Cuba 60 years ago don’t they?)

Do you really believe that the best choice is to take Saddam out of power? My friend I don’t want to be rude but the Iraqi people have a fucking choice o weather to overthrow the government or not (they actually have brains) Also my friend do you really know if the Iraqi people hate Saddam or you lived in Iraq! (Probably no my friend)

You may not know but they treat people like shit in the USA, especially if you are an Immigrant or a fucking homeless! Sometimes Illegal immigrants get their asses kick by fucking young American Yankees (of course you didn’t know that about your beautiful country USA) you want to know why because they can’t say shit about it, they don’t have papers!

A little suggestion is that you should worry about what is going up in the USA with immigrant first! FUCK BUSH his only desire is war!!!

[chamo]

Quote: from Latin America on 6:17 pm on Mar. 7, 2003
Hey Happy Boy listen!!! If we let the USA FUCK with IRAQ and if they take “Saddam out of power”; guess what in the fuck they going to do later, FUCK with North Korea, may be Venezuela and then so on and on! (They did it to Cuba 60 years ago don’t they?)

Do you really believe that the best choice is to take Saddam out of power? My friend I don’t want to be rude but the Iraqi people have a fucking choice o weather to overthrow the government or not (they actually have brains) Also my friend do you really know if the Iraqi people hate Saddam or you lived in Iraq! (Probably no my friend)

You may not know but they treat people like shit in the USA, especially if you are an Immigrant or a fucking homeless! Sometimes Illegal immigrants get their asses kick by fucking young American Yankees (of course you didn’t know that about your beautiful country USA) you want to know why because they can’t say shit about it, they don’t have papers!

A little suggestion is that you should worry about what is going up in the USA with immigrant first! FUCK BUSH his only desire is war!!!


OMFG?!?!? Will people fucking look at what I post. When the hell did I seem to support war. I am absolutley against it, but it does not mean that I have to support Saddam Hussien, it seems to you to be that way, so do you support him?

I am not American as you assume motherfucker, and I know how America treats its immigrants, I am not ignorant and I am not a capitalist, what do you think the bloody hammer and sickle is for, you ignorant shit?

Fuck Bush, Fuck Hussein, it's the people of Iraq that count, and the people want Saddam out. It is evident when Iraqis actually say this when they are free to and they can do this in the UK
Maybe try reading what people post first

[Tasha]

Happy you quoted me I never stated anything about anyone else's views. I only stated what my opinion of imperialists was, you must have gotten the wrong idea.

[chamo]

Sorry Tasha


(of course you didn’t know that about your beautiful country USA) me? USA? No.


Hey Happy Boy listen!!! If we let the USA FUCK with IRAQ yes we shouldn't let them fuck with Iraq by taking action and not ignoring Iraq. I'm not sure if this was an attack on me or with me.

(Edited by happyguy at 1:46 pm on Mar. 9, 2003)

[Latin America]

Let me tell you something Happy boy! If there is an ignorant between you and me, it’s more likely to be you!!! If you start insulting people when they write in your beautiful topic, why in the fuck you even create one!!! You are suppose to discuss the topic not been a fucking jackass just because someone doesn’t agree with your Idea! Hope you change the way you react toward people!!!

[chamo]

It would appear I got you mixed up with tasha and the avatars and stuff.

(Edited by happyguy at 4:26 pm on Mar. 8, 2003)

[LeonardoDaVinci]

My dear friends. There is no reason to start bickering amongst ourselves. Everyone is entitled to his/her own view. Nevertheless, happyguy does have a very valid argument.

Many in this website believe that if the Iraqi people want to get rid of Saddam, they will just kindly ask him to step down and that he will gladly oblige. That is just naive thinking. There is no real opposition in Iraq due to the totalitarian nature of Saddam's regime which will crush any remaining vestiges of resistance.

Like I stated in my previous post. The people of Iraq tried to rebel against Saddam following the Gulf War when the Americans promised to help them in removing Saddam. However, the policy makers in Washington had a sudden change of heart (for economic and political reasons). Unfortunately, they forgot to mention that to the Iraqis who went ahead with the insurrection, only to be massacred by Saddam's forces.

Of course some of you here are just happy to sit back and enjoy this little tragic confrontation between the murderous Saddam and his former master. However, for the people of Iraq who have suffered from Saddam's decade of murder and torture, US bombing, and UN sanctions this turmoil is not a play, but just another chapter of their miserable existence. And the sad reality is that neither the right (which supports America of course) nor the left (which is enjoys this act of defiance by Saddam) have given any thought to their suffering which is caused by the two main players of this sick game.

Latin America, I'm not speaking out of any self-righteousness or blind faith in my own views. However, my modest knowledge of the history of Iraq and the middle east gives me an indication as to the extent of turmoil and suffering that has blighted the people of the middle east in general and Iraq in particular. Furthermore, I have no less than five good Iraqi friends (one of whom happens to be my best friend) all of whom loath Saddam Hussein and his government. Several of whom have lost close relatives in Saddam's torture chambers. One of my friend's uncles (who was a political dissident) told me how when he refused to crack under the pain inflicted on him by the inquisitor, they brought his sister and raped her right before him. These are the abhorrent and psychotic people that Iraqis have to contend with everyday.

To simply ignore their plight and support Saddam because of his belligerence to America is just as despicable as commiting those crimes. And for those of us who have this unshaken belief in Socialism and its inanely humane values and place ourselves firmly in that corner, to adopt this particular cowardly stance and give them a choice between two disasterous outcomes, namely American bombs or the torture chambers of Saddam is just unforgivable.

[redstar2000]

Leo, the tone of your post suggests that we have some power to affect the outcome, one way or the other.

You say that we are "cowardly"---what would be "brave" in your view?

Should one of us jump in a plane, hop over to Baghdad, and shoot Saddam...thus saving everyone a whole lot of bother?

Ok, I nominate you.

Should those of us who live in the U.S., England, and Australia "temper" our opposition to Bush's war with ritual condemnations of Hussein? Will that make Hussein's tyranny less harsh?

Will America's presumably overwhelming military victory in Iraq make it more likely or less likely that the U.S. will attack another country the day after tomorrow?

Whatever anguish you feel for the people of Iraq...spare a thought for all the other victims of imperialism. There are billions of them.

Without world-wide massive resistance to U.S. imperialism, things are going to get much worse.

:cool:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 2:02 pm on Mar. 8, 2003)

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Quote: from LeonardoDaVinci on 4:49 pm on Mar. 8, 2003
My dear friends. There is no reason to start bickering amongst ourselves. Everyone is entitled to his/her own view. Nevertheless, happyguy does have a very valid argument.

Many in this website believe that if the Iraqi people want to get rid of Saddam, they will just kindly ask him to step down and that he will gladly oblige. That is just naive thinking. There is no real opposition in Iraq due to the totalitarian nature of Saddam's regime which will crush any remaining vestiges of resistance.

Like I stated in my previous post. The people of Iraq tried to rebel against Saddam following the Gulf War when the Americans promised to help them in removing Saddam. However, the policy makers in Washington had a sudden change of heart (for economic and political reasons). Unfortunately, they forgot to mention that to the Iraqis who went ahead with the insurrection, only to be massacred by Saddam's forces.

Of course some of you here are just happy to sit back and enjoy this little tragic confrontation between the murderous Saddam and his former master. However, for the people of Iraq who have suffered from Saddam's decade of murder and torture, US bombing, and UN sanctions this turmoil is not a play, but just another chapter of their miserable existence. And the sad reality is that neither the right (which supports America of course) nor the left (which is enjoys this act of defiance by Saddam) have given any thought to their suffering which is caused by the two main players of this sick game.

Latin America, I'm not speaking out of any self-righteousness or blind faith in my own views. However, my modest knowledge of the history of Iraq and the middle east gives me an indication as to the extent of turmoil and suffering that has blighted the people of the middle east in general and Iraq in particular. Furthermore, I have no less than five good Iraqi friends (one of whom happens to be my best friend) all of whom loath Saddam Hussein and his government. Several of whom have lost close relatives in Saddam's torture chambers. One of my friend's uncles (who was a political dissident) told me how when he refused to crack under the pain inflicted on him by the inquisitor, they brought his sister and raped her right before him. These are the abhorrent and psychotic people that Iraqis have to contend with everyday.

To simply ignore their plight and support Saddam because of his belligerence to America is just as despicable as commiting those crimes. And for those of us who have this unshaken belief in Socialism and its inanely humane values and place ourselves firmly in that corner, to adopt this particular cowardly stance and give them a choice between two disasterous outcomes, namely American bombs or the torture chambers of Saddam is just unforgivable.


Good post, but I believe that the Iraqi people do support Saddam Hussain, like the Soviet people liked Stalin.

Removing Saddam, would only mean a more radical replacement, by a follower of Saddam.

And I strongly believe that removal of Saddam by captalists would result in a pro-captalism/America dictator who is even harsher.

Someone who feels more connected to the USA than Iraq. Something like Karzai.

An Iraqi-American who would act "patriotic" and do everything for the homeland.

Ofcourse the very unloved government would be backed by tenthousands VN/ US forces, who keep "peace".

[booga]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 3:16 pm on Mar. 6, 2003

With the revelation of the "shock and awe" plan, it is clear that the U.S. intends a massive display of destructive power to intimidate the entire world into obedience.
We communists are not in any way obligated to furnish excuses for that or provide "alternative" ways for America to gain its objectives.

Admittedly unlikely, the best thing that could come out of this war, from the communist standpoint, is a massive, catastrophic defeat of the United States.

if only...

:cool:



so lets hear it redstar, give us an accurate description and/or definition of this "United States" one refers to.

if you dont understand the statement...let me rephrase it..."todos de la gente no son estupidos! yo creo en una America de libertad y justicia, mi America! no en el circular de putos de pena!

(Edited by booga at 11:04 pm on Mar. 8, 2003)

[booga]

Quote: from Ze on 4:11 pm on Mar. 6, 2003
Happyguy, you give Che's expeditions as an example, but you neglect to acknowledge that he went without Cuba's endorsement. He did not believe in foreign governments interfering with other nation's right to self determination because the 'liberating' capitalist government would no doubt mold the outcome in favor for their own country before the benefits of the 'liberated' country and region in the long run.

(Edited by Ze at 9:13 pm on Mar. 6, 2003)


Ze, if i understand, you are missing happyguy's point. though you get no disagreement from me in regards to your statement your lack of consideration is disheartning. for one can say that you merely display what is known as "common knowledge" and for that i kiss your cheek and leave you with this:

"common knowledge is better than conventional wisdom." :cheesy:

(Edited by booga at 11:22 pm on Mar. 8, 2003)

[hawarameen]

we share the same biology regardless of our ideology, we cannot categorise people who are worth saving and those who are not. whether one is red, blue, green or yellow.

some leftists have lost their way in my opinion, and i think one or two people here would not be bothered about a war if iraq was full of cappies.

i personally put the liberation of the oppresed majority/the masses ahead of any amount of money.

[booga]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 10:34 pm on Mar. 6, 2003

The plight of the Iraqi people is staring us in the face, lets deal with this, then sort out the US and get corporate America to behave, then we'll have more chance of benefitting more people, but right now the issue of Iraq is unavoidable.


"lets deal with it" is a pretty broad statement, yet i get the drift like many others here. if im correct, happy guy's original post was aiming to do just that until the intended method became bombarded by us so called "humanists" with lecture and negative critique.

one way to fight, is to create our own "research teams" with each team tackling on different issues. for instance, some of us will go back as far as the "British Mandate of 1919" while others stay current and others neutrally.

im sorry, yet what i have heard from scholars who have studied religions theology for many years have already presented their stance. this stance being that communism has the capability to make its mark on the entire world, it cannot as long as "religious" entities who hold both political and state influences exists. its obvious there is "role" playing positions that need to be re-deployed and redefined. otherwise, why continue to facilitate in a manner of "crumbs of bread tossed in the forest only to be eaten up by hungry animals?"

[booga]

Quote: from happyguy on 11:00 pm on Mar. 6, 2003
This is why I am against any foreign government's intervention or proposed "help". However, we, as leftists could not stand about while the Iraqi people struggle against their dictator and that is why I called upon you for advice and help in the first place, but it seems to have gotten turned around into a "who's right" debate.


what is this? the gulf war came first, and then the masacre of hundreds of thousands of people?

i understood saddam to have committed the murder of thousands before the gulf war. if he has done it again, well there are several entities to blame for this because as we would like to believe its all about "oil" its not. :angry: its about land!

[booga]

Quote: from hawarameen on 1:01 am on Mar. 7, 2003
if however the people of iraq are willing to be communists then thats ok, because we will help communists they are nice people.


CCCP - in iraq if you vote for someone else (incidently there is only one box to tick) dont worry the police know where you live and they will be visiting.



well then, there it goes, the police must be the ones persuaded to your political cause, no? although, as servants to the people i doubt they would really be interested in political views, left or right.

correct me if im wrong, the only difference between iraqi and parts of the rest of the world is this thing called the "constitution". if i had to convince a person that this "constitution" bears any weight on their liberty, i would be inclined to look at their eye color before i could advise.

i dont understand where the difficulty of making "two" distinct seperations comes into to play, maybe its because i have failed to explain it properly :confused:

[booga]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 1:13 am on Mar. 7, 2003

"...unless a particular society adopts our creeds and ideology, then we would not give a shit about what they are going through?"

Those are not the words I would have chosen, but what's the alternative? Try to "help" U.S. imperialism achieve its goals in a "less destructive" way?

Communism is not a charity.

:cool:



hey, redstar! can i be your g-friend? (im changing my avitar...heehee)

you mean something like..."Let the dead bury the dead" type of thing?

ditch the uncatchy phrase and rearrange some shit might be easier than buying an entirely new "livingroom" set.

[booga]

Quote: from Che y Marijuana on 1:21 am on Mar. 7, 2003 But the arab people are perfectly capable of overthrowing their governments.

The problem is when countries interfere, people are discouraged. The biggest argument against pro-democracy movements across the middle-east is that they are funded by the CIA. Know why? America wants to avoid a democratic middle east at all costs. That's why they send CIA operatives to be seen with pro-democracy activists by the local intelligence services. That's why they encouraged the people to rise up in iraq, promising support, and then let them burn. That discouraged any movement.



understood. the people want the power yet they fail to realise what can happen when that power is granted. the power is not "merely" a force created by the "voice" of the people yet the force of "action" by the people in that area.

to say we have a "solution" without proper and accurate analysis of the "international" situation is inappropriate "action, thus resulting in the genocides.

[booga]

Quote: from Latin America on 6:17 pm on Mar. 7, 2003
Hey Happy Boy listen!!! If we let the USA FUCK with IRAQ and if they take “Saddam out of power”; guess what in the fuck they going to do later, FUCK with North Korea, may be Venezuela and then so on and on! (They did it to Cuba 60 years ago don’t they?)


You may not know but they treat people like shit in the USA, especially if you are an Immigrant or a fucking homeless!

A little suggestion is that you should worry about what is going up in the USA with immigrant first! FUCK BUSH his only desire is war!!!



then its clear baby. GET THE FUCK OUT OF IRAQ! LET THE PEOPLE GO WHERE THEIR OWN BLACK HEARTS DESIRE!

AMERICA IS ITS OWN SOVEREIGN NATION! SO THEREFORE, GET THE FUCK OUT OF AMERICA!
BREAK THE VICIOUS CIRCLE. FIND THE PHANTOM IN YOUR OWN LAND! :biggrin:

[booga]

HAPPYGUY! YOUR AWESOME! YOU CAME IN FIRST! SO IGNORE THE ROTTEN EGGS!

I APOLOGISE FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO CONTRIBUTE MORE TO YOUR "RADICAL" FORM OF APPROACH AND YET I AM INSPIRED BY YOU TO CONTINUE TO SEEK ANSWERS...TO FIND THE PHANTOM!

[redstar2000]

booga, I am totally bewildered about what your posts mean.

I try, honestly, to respond to criticism of my views...but for all I can tell, nothing you've posted has any relationship to what I've said...or to what anyone else has said either. I am hopelessly :confused:

:cool:

[peaccenicked]

Most Iraqis believe that Saddam is the American's man.
Conspiracy theories are very common in Arab countries,
that is because they have been conspired against and betrayed by the Zionists, the British and the Americans for over a hundred years.
Saddam is a brutal dictator put there by the CIA and his wars against Iran and Kuwait had CIA backing.
Saddam was mugged by the CIA and Bush Snr who then lead the world against him.
Sept 11, set up Bush jnr on an imperialist war rampage that he promises to be perpetual.
It easy to say that the Iraqi opposition is weak but it has been made so not just by Sadam but CIA intrique and betrayal. The iraqi people have not just suffered at the hands of Saddam but by sanctions which the pope has called biological and chemical warfare against the iraqi people. There is the little matter of depleted uranium which has been effecting countless of Iraqi's babies.
There has been the improvishment of one of the richest countries in the middle east, which has a lowering of human expectations. The divorce rate has more than doubled and young people are scared to get married in such an environment. Sadam is hated but the US is abhorred, and the tactic of ''shock and awe'' is directed against the Iraqi people.
America has no intention of setting up democracy in Iraq.
It wants a puppet regime based on existing power structures. Saddam who has incredible personal power
is also a figurehead in a totalitarian regime. But history has shown us that totalitarianism can be defeated by
popular revolution and in the case of iraq to get rid of totalitarianism means getting rid of american/british imperialism as well. It is the iraqi people who are under attack. I am 100% against this war and 100% with the Iraqi people who deserve peace and stability in their lives, every bit as much as democracy.
Long live the Iraqi revolution.
Down with imperialism.





(Edited by peaccenicked at 7:46 am on Mar. 9, 2003)


(Edited by peaccenicked at 7:51 am on Mar. 9, 2003)

[LeonardoDaVinci]

Good post, but I believe that the Iraqi people do support Saddam Hussain, like the Soviet people liked Stalin.

Removing Saddam, would only mean a more radical replacement, by a follower of Saddam.

And I strongly believe that removal of Saddam by captalists would result in a pro-captalism/America dictator who is even harsher.


CCCP, I have yet to come across a single Iraqi that supports Saddam. The Iraqi people don't love Saddam, they fear him. The only Iraqis that support Saddam are the people of Tikrit (his home town) and small percentage of the Sunni muslims (who are a minority) and who serve in his republican guard. The majority Shiite muslims absolutely loath him. As well as the Kurds, Turkumans and the Marshland Arabs who've been wiped of the Iraqi map.

Furthermore, you can't possibly get a more murderous tyrannic figure than Saddam. Unless you're talking about either Hitler or the devil himself :wink:

[chamo]

CCCP seems to be giong on the voting results here. How many people were the Iraqi people allowed to vote for, only Saddam so that hardly makes it a fair test. Then again, when people are interviewed in Iraq about Saddam they seem to say "oh yes, Saddam is great" while their eyes dart from side to side.
I would not believe that people thank Saddam for killing off thousands, rather they fear him, thats why they "love" him.
In terms of cruelty, you can't get any worse. Saddam is much like Batista, Hitler and Stalin. If you support Saddam you may as well declare your allegiance to one of these characters. Saddam accuses people of being traitors and has them shot. When people rebel he exterminates them. That is why they dare not try it.

[hawarameen]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 5:20 am on Mar. 9, 2003
booga, I am totally bewildered about what your posts mean.

I try, honestly, to respond to criticism of my views...but for all I can tell, nothing you've posted has any relationship to what I've said...or to what anyone else has said either. I am hopelessly :confused:

:cool:


dito! :confused:

[hawarameen]

i am kurdish, i have lived in iraq, my parents lived there, all my family live there.

Leon... has many iraqi friends who also no doubt have lived there and have family there.

yet people think they know all there is to know about iraq and how the people feel etc. please tell us all what you base your facts on about what the iraqi people think.

his POLICY is to rape women in front of their family and execute men in front of their family while they are forced to clap then pay for the bullets.

there have been attempted revolutions and they have been brutally put down. the people are scared they need to know that if they rise up they will not but put down, they need an external impetus to reasure them that this time its for real, i refer you all to the kurdish uprising that was supposedly suported by Bush snr (may he die a slow death)

[Rock1Renegade3]

I agree with what you said Happyguy, but I don't think that Saddam should be our top priority, I think that North Korea is. They claim they have weapons of mass destruction, so why is the President ignoring them? Sure Saddam is a criminal, but he has proven so far that he has no weapons of mass destruction. Anyways weren't we seekin Osama first. Not once did I hear the name 'Osame Bin Laden' on Bush's State of the Union Address. I cought that, I'm sure you guys did too. Now I would ask this to Bush: "why did you give up on Osama and point fingers at Saddam? Was Saddam easy to find or something? Oh and is this "war" for the US or just you?" that's just me though....

[The Communist Threat]

We don't attack n. korea because that will be the beginning of WW3..n korea is too strong for the U$ to easily handle, Iraq will probably be a pushover for the U$.

I think that n. korea is a much bigger threat than iraq, but once again, this war is not about saddam, its about what lies beneath iraq (oil)...what does n. korea have???...nothing at all...

[Rock1Renegade3]

If we attack Iraq, it's most certain that N. Korea will attack us. most likely from behind. I agree on the oil part, i must of totally forgot about that for a sec, but it's not just for oil but for revenge.

[chamo]

Here are my reasons why America is deliberating over Iraq and not North Korea.

In Iraq the only reason for war is essentially over oil, if America has more control over the world's oil resources then they have more imperialistic power. North Korea does actually pose much more of a threat but USA does not see a good enough reason to take action, economically that is of course. DPRK is one of the countries on America's "terrorist list" and are developing nuclear weapons right under their noses, have broken the armistis with america and are moving troops towards the 38th parallel between North and South Korea.
Anyway, they would be too concerned with moving troops into the Middle East and organising the war there to be ready for DPRK. North Korea may be developing nuclear weapons but I wouldn't think there is any reason fo them to use them, America pose more of a threat to the world with their nuclear weapons that DPRK do.
The borders of DPRK are too well guarded and the army too large and well supplied for U$A to win easily. They will only fight a war that is quick, easy, and has a large economical benefit or imperial benefit.
You have to understand America have never fought a war that doesn't serve their ecconomy in some way, look at WWII, it got America out of the depression. This stupid "war on terror", which is really just a continuation of the gulf war, is just another example of America's facist, oppressive stance in the world today.

Down with this Imperiali$tic, Fascist, Opressive, Greedy, Agressive, Unjustified, Unsuppoted, Unapproved, WAR!