Nation of Islam

[Loknar]

Brother, in our days, about 8,400 years ago in order to put an end to the dissatisfaction, Allah allowed Yakub to graft the devil (white man). So we can say, the speaking of tongues, in our days, repercussions was the having a people rule over us, who is not a people of Allah. Now, today, the devils speaking of tongues is going to cause all kinds of chaos among his followers, thereby revealing to us that they and their religion is Hot. The religion of Allah and the prophets which is going to cause all of our people Black Brothers and Sisters, who have eyes to see and ears to hear to flee unto their own kind, who will be under the banner of Islam, which in turn will destroy Christianity or "the speaking of tongues".

http://www.thenationofislam.org/yakubabraham.html


A hate group? Yes just like the KKK.

I wonder, why do people flock to such organizations?

Are there any NOI members here that can explain this?

[Intifada]

The NOI is flocked to as a result of alienation of the black US population.

I don't think there are any NOI members on this board.

[KC]

The only person here that I can think of that supported the NOI was Correa, but that was when he first got here and I believe he changed after a discussion on them.

[Jimmie Higgins]

They are nationalists, but there is no parallel to the KKK. THeir goal is not intimidating white people and reinforceing a social order which makes white people 2nd class citizens. They are black nationalist and religious and have some wacky ideas because of the intersection of these two things.

People are drawn to the NOI and black nationalism at times when it seems that intergration and equal rights in the US are a lost cause. In the 30s, the US CP had branches in Harlem and CHicago (places where the NOI later became strong) and was really doing good work against rascim and trying to intergragte unions and their branches. In WWII Russia told the AMerican CP to support FDR and from that point on the CP was attached to the Democratic party and they droped a lot of their civil rights work. Consaquently, black membership in the CP droped and the NOI was one of the few radical organizations to appeal to urban blacks.

It is no suprise to me that the NOI has begun to grow again in the 90s as well as this decade. White liberals all say that civil rights worked and show us MLK's birthday on the calender to proove it' white conservatives say that civil rights have gone too far and compare affermative action to a sort of anti-white jim-crow and the NOI or the Panthers to the KKK.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 03:20 AM
A hate group? Yes just like the KKK.
Not quite. Sure they share ideological stratification but the KKK has to work much harder (with more lies) to brainwash people against their victims. The NOI only has to take facts and then lie about the motivations of those causing social problems.

[Scars]

Originally posted by 313C7 iVi4RX+Jan 11 2006, 07:23 PM--> (313C7 iVi4RX @ Jan 11 2006, 07:23 PM)
[email protected] 11 2006, 03:20 AM
A hate group? Yes just like the KKK.
Not quite. Sure they share ideological stratification but the KKK has to work much harder (with more lies) to brainwash people against their victims. The NOI only has to take facts and then lie about the motivations of those causing social problems. [/b]
They believe that whites are biologically inferior to blacks, to the extent that they term whites 'possible humans' while blacks are humans. That seems far more 'KKK' than 'nationalist'.

Even if they are 'just' black nationalists, that doesn't mean that they are good or should be supported in any way shape or form. They should be opposed and recognised as the reacationary racists that they are.

[Loknar]

I can understand black people joining an organization like this...but come on, white people created by some guy named Yakub? What kind of BS is that?

Frankly, if I ever see a person in the NOI I would avoid him/her...though I'm sure they'd make sure to avoid me first.

The KKK are nationalists and racists...the NOI is as well, though the NOIs history isn’t as violent (but never the less they do have a violent past). Thus is a clear cut case of racism…any group of people can be racists.

I also heard that when Malcolm X told mid-easterners about Yakub, they were baffled.

[Rank]

As long as there is religion, there will always be discrimination and hate amongst certain groups of people, and they won't stop until the opposition is eliminated.




i sound kinda like george w. bush....wierd...

[redstar2000]

Oakland, CA - liquor store attacked (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=43224)

They are neo-puritan assholes...and reactionary as hell!

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[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 01:44 AM
As long as there is religion, there will always be discrimination and hate amongst certain groups of people, and they won't stop until the opposition is eliminated.




i sound kinda like george w. bush....wierd...
No, no, no. As long as black people are opressed in the U.S., people will look to organizations that offer an explaination and a way to fight back. The problem is that the NOI has been the only consitant organization for the last 1/2 century.

The arguments being made here about the "racism" of the NOI could be made by any number of right-wing pundits on FOX news. As marxists we recognize that there is a difference between the nationalism of the opressed and the nationalism of the opresssor. Nationalism dosn't really make rational sense in many cases, so magical and crazy ideas are needed in order for it to make sense.


They believe that whites are biologically inferior to blacks, to the extent that they term whites 'possible humans' while blacks are humans. That seems far more 'KKK' than 'nationalist'.I can see how this would be an appealing idea for people fed up with white people and the dominent white culture constnatly telling them that black people arn't smart, can't be pretty, and are closer to ape than man.


I also heard that when Malcolm X told mid-easterners about Yakub, they were baffled.Yeah, if you've read the "autobiography of Malcom X", it details a lot of wacky NOI beliefs and practices (as well as the better and more political actions by them at that time) and then describes his trip to the middle east as one of the major turning points in his life where he became more revolutionary than seperatist, more anti-imperialist than anti-white people in general.

[death88junkie]

That whole thing about Yakub and Allah is false.. u should check the reliability of a source before mentioning it. i am a muslim and also a communist.. there is no rule in islam tht forbids any kind of socialism. eventho karl marx was an atheist himself, that had nuthing to do with the communist manifesto. there is also a branch of communism called islamic communism.
and religion has nothing to do with hate, its just extremists who spread the hate. i mean, even me as a muslim, i have muslim extremists, and in islamic society, extremists like bin laden and such arnt really muslim, cuz part of islam is tolerance and not attacking someone until he attacks u... and one of the rules of islam is equality, and i am not here to promote islam, but im correcting those who think otherwise... for example, in hajj - the annual pilgrimage - evry1 stands together and helps each other and pray together... i think that if theres a religions close to socialism it's islam... and eventho im not religious i do believe in the principles of islam.

one more point to add...
islam is not a religion of terror, but thts wut the american media has viewed it as...
it is a very peaceful religion, but people who take the route of terror claiming its Allah's message, well thts false.. please read the only reliable source in islam, the Koran... there are english versions of it - but ofcourse, theyre not as reliable as the arabic one, since the arabic is the original and theres no exact translation for some words... but well, thats the best source for a non-arabic speaking person... :)

check out this pic of the Holy Mosque in Mecca.. evry1 equal.. rich and poor, men and women, adults and kids...
i've been there and seen it myself.. its one of the most socialist places u can be in...

[Elect Marx]

Come to think of it, the NOI is a religious group, so I will move this thread to Religion.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Gravedigger+--> (Gravedigger)The arguments being made here about the "racism" of the NOI could be made by any number of right-wing pundits on FOX news.[/b]

Ok, it's time to "blow the whistle" on this one.

The accidental correspondence between a communist critique and a right-wing critique of a particular social phenomenon is not a legitimate rejoinder.

The opposition of a white racist to the NOI is not for the same reasons as the opposition of a communist.

If both I and Fox News consider the current president of Iran to be a nutball, that does not mean that I work for Fox News nor does it mean that Fox news is "communist". :lol:

I'm going to start pissing on that "argument" every time I see it from now on. :angry:


death88junkie
I am a muslim and also a communist.

No, you are confused.

You cannot be superstitious and also be a communist.

Sooner or later, circumstances will compel you to choose between them.

It's just the way things are.

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[bezdomni]

Don't a couple dozen people usually get trampled to death in Mecca during the hajj?

I think I've heard that from muslim friends.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Jan 13 2006, 01:51 AM--> (redstar2000 @ Jan 13 2006, 01:51 AM)
Gravedigger
The arguments being made here about the "racism" of the NOI could be made by any number of right-wing pundits on FOX news.

Ok, it's time to "blow the whistle" on this one.

The accidental correspondence between a communist critique and a right-wing critique of a particular social phenomenon is not a legitimate rejoinder.

The opposition of a white racist to the NOI is not for the same reasons as the opposition of a communist.

If both I and Fox News consider the current president of Iran to be a nutball, that does not mean that I work for Fox News nor does it mean that Fox news is "communist". :lol:

I'm going to start pissing on that "argument" every time I see it from now on. :angry: [/b]
If they were giving a marxist critique or even a left-wing critique of the NOI, then you would be correct. They are not giving a similar critique of the NOI, they are giving the same relitivist, "reverse-racism" argument that O'Reliley makes when he talks about La Raza or the Panthers or the NOI.

The KKK and other white powwer nationalist organizations are there to terrorize the opressed, the NOI (which may have some crazy ideas like some white nationalist group) is not going around unsing extra-legal means to "keep white people down"; in the U.S. black power is not the same as white power.

Saying that the bigotry of certain people in opressed groups is the same as racism or the biogtry of the KKK nullifies the fact that systematic racism is still one of the ruling class's best weapons. It suggests a "level playing field" where black kids have as much opporetunity as Bill Gates Jr. does and therefore a young black man calling his boss a "cracker" is the equivalent of a teacher or cop calling some kid a "nigger".

This is the right-wing view in the US, so start pissin'.

I believe a marxist critique of the NOI would be something along the lines of their ideas about religion; their tendancy to represent the petit-bourgoise sections of the black movement and therefore tend to rely on "moralistic" explainations for black opression (i.e. like the million man march which turned the blame for black poverty onto "hip hop" culture and deadbeat dads and drinking and smoking). Nationalism makes strange bedfellows and I think the NOI actually cooperated with some white seperatist groups in the past (similar goals - white people over here, black people over there) but this is not the same as an equivelency between NOI and KKK!

Again, a marxist critique would also aknowledge the difference between the natioanlism of the opressed and the nationalism of the opressor. The NOI is the result of white supremacy and the desire for people to fight back against such systems. It is the same with national liberation struggles, the Liberation group might use violence and terrorism, but this violence is not the same as the violence of the opressor group. This is basic marxism 101 here folks.

[Loknar]

Grave Digger.

You are an apologist. You apologize for clear cut racism. If I said I think black people were created by the devil am I not a racist?

The NOI keeps to it self and doesn’t go out and kill white people, but it doesn’t excuse the very fact that they are an organizations of racists.

I only acknowledge that blacks would have a reason to join NOI, but it doesn’t excuse racism.

death88junkie

this was never directed against Islam, I know Islam is a sane religion. I only directed this thread at a perversion of Islam, aka NOI and the Yakub doctrine.

[death88junkie]

You cannot be superstitious and also be a communist.

islam is not superstition.. its all about reality. and in islam, u shud care as much about the world as u care about the afterworld ;)

and one proof that says i wont have to choose between them is that theres sumthing called islamic-socialism.. which means socialism does exist in islam :D
and islam is not all spiritual, it deals with social matters too.. and i believe the closest political ideology to islam is Communism... cuz it ordered ppl to be united and the rich help the poor and giving up things for each other, even if its a matter of life and death...

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 11:17 AM
islam is not superstition.. its all about reality. and in islam, u shud care as much about the world as u care about the afterworld ;)
I hate to break this to you (not really) but there is not one shred of proof for the existance of Allah or any god. They are make believe. It flies in the face of everything we know about the world to suggest that gods/angels/devils/etc exist. All religions defy logic and are based solely on faith. That is superstition.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by death88junkie
Islam is not superstition.

Yes it is.

Why?

Because there is no scientific evidence that "Allah" exists.

Or "Hell". Or "Paradise". Or any of that stuff.

Now, if you are a rational person, then you do not "believe" in things that don't exist.

To do that would "be superstitious". :(

Historical materialism (or Marxism or communism) is about reality...either that which can be demonstrated to exist or that which can be shown to be logically possible.

You don't "believe" in it, you see with your own eyes that certain things actually exist.

There really is a working class, a capitalist class, etc. They really do struggle with each other. Therefore the logical possibility really exists that the working class could overthrow the capitalist class.

Oh, and by the way, both human males and human females really are "lewd"...we evolved to be that way.

That's not a "sin" against "Allah" because "Allah" doesn't exist.

If you "have it in you", this is a good site for you to begin breaking away from the Muslim superstition...

The Skeptic's Annotated Quran (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.html)

When (or if) you become an atheist, then we can talk about communism.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[death88junkie]

ok then convince me out of my religion:P
eventho i doubt u can..

[death88junkie]

plus, u dont have to see sumthing to believe in it.. do u see atoms? dont u believe they exist?! the thing is... u can prove it without seeing it!!!

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by Gravedigger
Saying that the bigotry of certain people in opressed groups is the same as racism or the biogtry of the KKK nullifies the fact that systematic racism is still one of the ruling class's best weapons.

While I get your general point. Hasn't the "Nation of Islam" written and published some of the most vile and aggressive anti-Semitic literature in years? ....indeed I'm sure I read somewhere that the "Nation of Islam" is now the biggest distributor of anti-Semitic literature in the US. I'll try and find the source to post it.

[death88junkie]

eventho they are anti-semetic, i am not.. i have an open-mind.. yes i do admit that islam is a religion that hates jews, but thts not up to me... and i am not a traditional muslim since im not a practising one. i just believe in the mythologies and stuff.
dont blame me for sumthing my nation does.

[LSD]

plus, u dont have to see sumthing to believe in it.. do u see atoms? dont u believe they exist?

You have absolutely no understanding of science if you think that anyone "believes" in atoms.

We know that atoms exist because they have been empirically demonstrated to exist.

"Allah"? ...not so much.


ok then convince me out of my religion:P

Clearly you've deeply misunderstood the nature of logic.

It is not our obligation to "disprove" your fairy tales, rather the owness is on you to provide a single scrap of evidence that supports them.

Don't hurt yourself trying though, in 1400 yars of Islam, none has ever been found.


the thing is... u can prove it without seeing it!!!

You can?

Great! :)

Please, then, prove the existance of "Allah".

[redstar2000]

Seeing atoms...

Surface Reconstructions - Rearrangement of Atoms at a Surface (http://eaps4.iap.tuwien.ac.at/www/surface/STM_Gallery/reconstructions.html)

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[death88junkie]

Read, my friends :)

Does Allah Exist? (http://www.a2youth.com/islam/non-muslims/tawheed-07.html)

Does He?! (http://humanists.net/avijit/article/argument_for_existance_of_god_halim.htm)

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 11:28 AM
Read, my friends :)

Does Allah Exist? (http://www.a2youth.com/islam/non-muslims/tawheed-07.html)

Does He?! (http://humanists.net/avijit/article/argument_for_existance_of_god_halim.htm)
No, he doesn't.

[violencia.Proletariat]

from the second link


The repeated bumping into the buildings caused the wood of the tree trunk to be hacked away, and before my very eyes, the log of wood turned into a boat, which I rowed to my friend's house.

:lol:

I love the if we are so complex how could nature make us? Well if your fucking allah is so complex who the hell made him? A paradox, that will never have an answer for the believers. As for us we have realized the answer, there is no god.

[death88junkie]

The question is: how was the universe created? <_<

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 01:38 PM
The question is: how was the universe created? <_<
It must have been created by an invisible man in the sky&#33; Why? Because that is the only explanation my weak mind can fathom, so it must be true.

[death88junkie]

now, wont u believe me when i say there is no way religion will be eliminated?
people hold different beliefs, which are all strong.. and we cannot be united by one religion - which is why in a utopian world, there should be open-mindedness about it and accepting others the way they are :)

[LSD]

The question is: how was the universe created?

That&#39;s an important question, yes.

But if you want to propose an answer, you have to actually back it up.

Saying the "Koran told me so" doesn&#39;t count.


which is why in a utopian world, there should be open-mindedness about it and accepting others the way they are

Unless, of course, they&#39;re women, gay, or nonbelievers. <_<

[redstar2000]

"Allah" rewards those who worship...


Originally posted by BBC
Saudi officials have denied that police could have done more to stop a stampede during the Hajj pilgrimage, now known to have killed at least 362 Muslims.

HAJJ DISASTERS

* 2004: 251 trampled to death in stampede
* 2003: 14 are crushed to death
* 2001: 35 die in stampede
* 1998: At least 118 trampled to death
* 1997: 343 pilgrims die and 1,500 injured in fire
* 1994: 270 killed in stampede
* 1990: 1,426 pilgrims killed in tunnel leading to holy sites
* 1987: 400 die as Saudi authorities confront pro-Iranian demonstration

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/middle_east/4608368.stm

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[Publius]

owness

Not to be pedantic, but I assume you mean &#39;onus&#39;.

I just found that somewhat funny.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 07:37 AM
Grave Digger.

You are an apologist. You apologize for clear cut racism. If I said I think black people were created by the devil am I not a racist?

The NOI keeps to it self and doesn’t go out and kill white people, but it doesn’t excuse the very fact that they are an organizations of racists.

I only acknowledge that blacks would have a reason to join NOI, but it doesn’t excuse racism.
There is no such thing as "racism" against white people in the US. "Reverse racism" in the US is a right-wing myth that suggests that the opression of black people or other minorities does not exist.

The KKK exists to uphold an existing social order of white supramcy over blacks or immigrents or so on. The NOI is a "reaction" to the social order of white supremacy, not an upholder of it. Someone could call themselves a "black supremist" but there would be no real way for him to enforce "black supremacy".

The NOI are speratists and nationalists and we should criticize them in that we think racial divisions are harmful to the class intrests of all workers in general. But we should always be clear that bigotry is not the same as racism which is part of a sytem of opression (not just "personal dislike of certain groups"); there is no such thing as black racism against whites in the US.

You moral argument is a slippery slope: if the KKK is like black natioalist groups, then black power must be just as bad as white power, then a zieg-hail is like a black power fist.