persuasion

[Angry Young Man]

i was annoyed in science when sombody described el che a murderer. he made up this cock and bull story about him killing a 12 yr old boy personally! then he persuaded someone of this mistruth. so i put him in his place by describing him to someone else as a liberator of the people, then she asked for a basic description of socialism, and then she said "that's good, surely" and i say "yes, it's very good!" and thenceforth she decided she was a socialist. one enlightened, 2999 to go! (there's about that many in my college, and alot of the ones i know are pretty left leaning anyway)

[Wanted Man]

The "Che shot a 12-year-old" comes from Cuban immigrant Humberto Fontova, who writes items like this (http://www.lewrockwell.com/fontova/fontova44.html) for some libertarian rag. He supposedly heard the story from one "Pierre San Martin"(hearsay, very reliable!). Of course, googling that name only results in the very same article by Fontova on other websites. Either this señor San Martin made up the whole story, or Fontova made up señor San Martin in the first place. Humberto Fontova also peddles the myth that Cuba under Batista was basically a beautiful Caribbean paradise.

All this guy proves is that Batista-supporting refugees say the damndest things. Oh, his other articles are also fine evidence of the conservatism of the supposedly "pro-freedom" libertarians, followers of an ideology built on book smarts and empty, utopian sloganeering.

Moral of the story: know your enemy. You did good in your discussion, apparently, but it could have been even greater if you could have traced this common myth about Che, and explain why it is in no way credible. Especially the fact that before Fontova's article(in no way well-researched, or even sourced, and way too short to be credible in any way at all), nobody had ever heard of Mr San Martin, is quite notable, because it means your opponent relied on sources that are probably BS.

[Big Boss]

Another low lie that I read somewhere is that he killed Camilo Cienfuegos!!

[Tekun]

Here's an example of that horse shit that Fontova spews down in Florida
Ignorant scum, he doesn't even cite his sources
No evidence, info, or reliable sources; its ridiculous how conservatives use this shit to convince others that Che murdered innocent Cubans



Che at the Oscars
by Humberto Fontova (April 2, 2005)


A Cuban gentleman named Pierre San Martin was also among those jailed by the gallant Che. A few years ago he recalled the horrors in a El Nuevo Herald article. "32 of us were crammed into a cell" he recalls. "16 of us would stand while the other sixteen tried to sleep on the cold filthy floor. We took shifts that way. Actually, we considered ourselves lucky. After all, we were alive. Dozens were led from the cells to the firing squad daily. The volleys kept us awake. We felt that any one of those minutes would be our last."

"One morning the horrible sound of that rusty steel door swinging open startled us awake and Che's guards shoved a new prisoner into our cell. His face was bruised and smeared with blood. We could only gape. He was a boy, couldn't have been much older than 12, maybe 14.

"What did you do?" We asked horrified. "I tried to defend my papa," gasped the bloodied boy. "I tried to keep these Communist sons of b**tches from murdering him! But they sent him to the firing squad."

Soon Che's goons came back, the rusty steel door opened and they yanked the valiant boy out of the cell. "We all rushed to the cell's window that faced the execution pit, " recalls Mr San Martin. "We simply couldn't believe they'd murder him!"

"Then we spotted him, strutting around the blood-drenched execution yard with his hands on his waist and barking orders – the gallant Che Guevara." Here Che was finally in his element. In battle he was a sad joke, a bumbler of epic proportions (for details see Fidel; Hollywood's Favorite Tyrant). But up against disarmed and bloodied boys he was a snarling tiger.

"Kneel Down!" Che barked at the boy.

"ASSASSINS!" We screamed for our window. "MURDERERS!! HOW CAN YOU MURDER A LITTLE BOY!"

" I said: KNEEL DOWN!" Che barked again.

The boy stared Che resolutely in the face. "If you're going to kill me," he yelled. "you'll have to do it while I'm standing! MEN die standing!"

" COWARDS! – MURDERERS!..Sons of B**TCHES!" The men yelled desperately from their cells. "LEAVE HIM ALONE!" HOW CAN...?! "And then we saw Che unholstering his pistol. It didn't seem possible. But Che raised his pistol, put the barrel to the back of the boys neck and blasted. The shot almost decapitated the young boy.

"We erupted. We were enraged, hysterical, banging on the bars. "MURDERERS! – ASSASSINS!" His murder finished, Che finally looked up at us, pointed his pistol, and BLAM!-BLAM-BLAM! emptied his clip in our direction. Several of us were wounded by his shots."

To a man (and boy) Che's murder victims went down in a blaze of defiance and glory. So let's recall Che's own plea when the wheels of justice finally turned and he was cornered in Bolivia. "Don't Shoot!" he whimpered. "I'm Che! I'm worth more to you alive than dead!"

This swinish and murdering coward, this child-killer, was the toast of the Oscars.

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[Red Rebel]

Wow. Even people who don't agree with Che, would say that he would not do that. So I guess it is his word vs everyone else who knew Che.

[Brujo]

I've read that whole article by Fontonova (or whatever his name was) Some of the dialogue is more like a scipt from a Hollywood movie. He portays Che as soemone who loved torturing executing enemies of the state.

Let's say it's true....all those stories of Le Cabana prison...it was his job to be a tough and strong leader. The system had to be purged of the enemy AT ALL COSTS. Reality is very different and so I know very well if I had the balls to be in his shoes I'd probably do the same thing.

[fernando]

Gusanos are funny people...really! You people ever check the Che groups on Myspace? lots of gusanos join up there to teach us all sorts of interesting things...of course they speak absolute truth because they are "real" Cubans...

You know what I recently noticed...I watched this horrible movie called Once Upon A Time In Mexico (simply a weak attempt by Robert Rodriguez to further milk out El Mariachi) and well there was a character who played an evil and sadistic doctor...guess what he was called? THATS RIGHT DR GUEVARA!!! :rolleyes:

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 04:02 AM
I've read that whole article by Fontonova (or whatever his name was) Some of the dialogue is more like a scipt from a Hollywood movie.
Which is funny, considering Fontova is pissed off about Hollywood throughout the article. :lol:

[Senka]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 04:02 AM
I've read that whole article by Fontonova (or whatever his name was) Some of the dialogue is more like a scipt from a Hollywood movie. He portays Che as soemone who loved torturing executing enemies of the state.


Let's say it's true....all those stories of Le Cabana prison...it was his job to be a tough and strong leader. The system had to be purged of the enemy AT ALL COSTS. Reality is very different and so I know very well if I had the balls to be in his shoes I'd probably do the same thing.

Ok,Che's in this story enemy of all people,he's killing everybody,he's heartless and so on...maybe that's true if he had some double personality or he was extremely good liar.I think that truth is somewhere between.I don't think that he enjoyed killing prisoners or whoever he needed to kill.

Brujo,how can you say that you'd do same thing if that's true!?Look real on that: if boy comes to rescue his father,you'd kill him?!(*I DON'T SAY THAT CHE DID THAT,I'M SETTING THIS AS AN EXAMPLE).I say this because I respect El Che,I respect about 90%of his thoughts but that doesn't mean that everything he's done is without mistake.

Even if he did done that I can't see why would everyone else repeat same mistake to kill that many people without really good reason.