Troskyism

[Noah]

Hey guys,

Who are trotskyists? What do they believe that is different from a Marxist? I know Mao killed Trostkyists.

Somone I know claims to be a troskyist and he always says about Cuba and China are true communist countries (oxymoronic!). It sounds stupid to me because communism is stateless and he's in the 'Young Communist League' and believes himself to be some form of epiphany. When infact he's just a big twat.

So does him being troskyist influence these beliefs?

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by Noah+--> (Noah)Who are trotskyists?[/b]

People who adhere to the theories of Leon Trotsky, the Bolshevik revolutionary who was later "outlawed" by Stalin.

Take a look at this thread for more information -- Che-Lives Who's Who..., ...Of Revolutionaries and theorists (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=21439) -- there's a bit of further reading there if you're interested.


Originally posted by Noah+--> (Noah)What do they believe that is different from a Marxist?[/b]

Well, they are Leninists so they have all the same differences as Leninism and Marxism. Plus there's the "theory of permanent revolution" and no doubt a few other things.

Plus they (constantly) bicker with "Stalinists" because they think Trotsky was the rightful heir to the Russian "throne". Check out the History forum for more information on the dispute.


Originally posted by Noah
I know Mao killed Trostkyists.

He also "borrowed" a lot of Trotsky's theories, Permanent revolution is virtually the theory behind the Cultural revolution. This is not surprising been as Trotsky was the first "Communist" Mao read.

Maoism (in my opinion) is sort of like the bastard child of Trotskyism and Stalinism. :o :lol:


[email protected]
Somone I know claims to be a troskyist and he always says about Cuba and China are true communist countries

Well, quite frankly, he is an idiot.

Most Trotskyists view China, Cuba etc. as "degenerated worker states", "Stalinist bureaucracies" or "bureaucratic workers states". I've probably missed out some of the slogans.


Noah
So does him being troskyist influence these beliefs?

Well as I commented, Trotskyists rarely praise China or Cuba. However vile Trotskyism is, it (probably) isn't responsible for this "error".

[Lamanov]

Originally posted by Armchair [email protected] 7 2006, 10:30 PM
Most Trotskyists view China, Cuba etc. as "degenerated worker states", "Stalinist bureaucracies" or "bureaucratic workers states". I've probably missed out some of the slogans.
There are also some Trotskyists who adhere to state capitalism theory. This trend among Trots started with Tony Cliff (you can find him at MIA).

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 07:37 AM
Hey guys,

Who are trotskyists? What do they believe that is different from a Marxist? I know Mao killed Trostkyists.
Past thread on this. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=40806&st=0&#entry1291942537)

One definition:
"Trotskyism is not a new movement, a new doctrine, but the restoration, the revival, of genuine Marxism as it was expounded and practised in the Russian revolution and in the early days of the Communist International."
--James P. Cannon, The History of American Trotskyism


Somone I know claims to be a troskyist and he always says about Cuba and China are true communist countries (oxymoronic!). It sounds stupid to me because communism is stateless and he's in the 'Young Communist League' and believes himself to be some form of epiphany. When infact he's just a big twat.

So does him being troskyist influence these beliefs?

People who call themselves Trotskyist believe all kinds of things, but this seems unusual. I'm surprised he can call himself Trotskyist in the YCL without being kicked out.

Armchair Socialist wrote:

He also "borrowed" a lot of Trotsky's theories, Permanent revolution is virtually the theory behind the Cultural revolution.

What? No. Have nothing to do with each other.

That's the kind of thing that would only be said by someone who has no idea what "permanent revolution" refers to, and just assumes from the name it means a revolution that goes on forever. Then takes Mao's advertising at face value, as to the purpose of the "Cultural Revolution."

So of course a lot of "experts" and authors of bourgeois books about communism say it.

See the thread linked at the beginning of this post for an explanation of what the theory of permanent revolution is actually about.

[Enragé]

trotskyism is anti-stalinist leninism, + permanent revolution.

I am somewhat of a trotskyist though i differ on the status of the socalled commie countries. they were state capitalist, not degenerated workersstates.


However vile Trotskyism is

what the hell?!?! why?

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 10:17 PM

However vile Trotskyism is

what the hell?!?! why?

Well as a "revolutionary theory", Trotskyism is a version of Leninism and Leninism is more or less, anti-working class Communism. One only has to read some of the opinions of Leninists (especially the Maoists) to understand what they think of the working class and the prospect of working class power.

Secondly, from what I've read of Trotsky the individual, he was an arrogant and repulsive person. And given the choice, I'd rather spend a day in the company of Stalin (and his "peasant humour") than spend a day in the company of Trotsky.

[Shredder]

Trotsky is my favorite Marxist theorist, though I am not interested in having an "ism" more specific than Marxism for myself.

If you are interested in Trotskyism I would recommend three items for the specific needs and shortcommings of RevLeft posters: Permanent Revolution, some of his writings on fascism, and The Transitional Programme. After that, the next most notable/accessible Trotskyist is Alan Woods from marxist.com, so you could look into some of the works he has in print & html-- Russia: From Revolution to Counterrevolution does a good job at criticizing the idea of state capitalism and explaining why, despite its evils, the soviet union was significantly more than the utter failure that revleft posters relegate it to.

The first thing important about Trotsky is his theory of permanent revolution. This explained the actual material conditions preceding the russian revolutions. It explained that Russia's means of production were not advanced enough for the Russian bourgeoisie to enter into the game of capitalism this late in history. It was already the 1900s and feudalism was still prevalent in Russia. The Russian bourgeoisie would be consigned to being economic colonies and would be unable to build up the productive forces. Therefore the task of advancing industry to create the material conditions necessary for socialism would fall to the proletariat; it would be not only possible but also necessary for the proletariat to take power in a backward country before an advanced country. The proletariat would first carry out the historical tasks of the bourgeoisie, and then move on to its socialist tasks. This is all very important to understanding the Trotskyist take on the USSR. For the USSR was able to advance industry and the means of production, what capitalism was unable to do in all the economically colonized countries which had no advancement in the means of production in 1917 and still have little to none in 2006. Permanent Revolution is incredibly boring so just go ask wikipedia and you will get an acceptable explanation I'm sure.

Second of all, Trotsky's understanding of Bonapartism is important and allows him to intimately understand fascism, among other things. Bonapartism is a term very important for all RevLeft Marxists to understand in general, and also a term important in Trotskyism. Bonapartism, of course, is a phenomenon that occurs when class antagonisms are so strong that an authoritarian police state takes control of society to create order and to allow for the rule of one class over another. Stalinism is the bonapartism of the proletarian class on the rise. Fascism is the bonapartism of capitalism in decay. This is Trotsky's strongest element, because he is able to accurately explain authoritianism from Cromwell to Hitler and Stalin in the terms of historical materialism. It also gave him a particular insight into the evils of fascism and warned urgently of its dangers long before they came true.

The Transitional Program is a very enlightening read for posters of RevLeft because it will get you to stop thinking of revolution as some far off rapture that we cannot know the nature of and begin thinking of it in far more concrete and useful terms. This work proposes to spark revolutionary consciousness by bridging the gap between the reformist demands of the proletariat within the confines of the bourgeois system and the overthrow of capitalism in the uncertain future, by explaining a program in which proletariat makes relentless, successive demands which bourgeois property relations are unable to fulfill. The proletariat creates a dual power in the workplace and eliminates "business secrets," and thus prepares itself to rule without the bourgeoisie altogether. If you ever got sick of not having no idea what a revolution is supposed to look like, the transitional program is a good, and short, place to get your thinking back on the right track even if you refute or misunderstand the plan itself.

[More Fire for the People]

Who are trotskyists?
Followers of Trotsky :lol:, but some of them are inspired by others such as Tony Cliff or
Max Shachtman .


What do they believe that is different from a Marxist?
Trotskyism is an outgrowth of Leninism attempting to cure it of its ails without ever finding the cause of these ails. Trotksyist believe in a permanent revolution [a term so ambigious that it could mean either social-imperialism or simply a cultural revolution] towards communism.


I know Mao killed Trostkyists.
Mao was largely inspired by Trotsky which is probably the reason Mao was so enthralled by the Cultural Revolution.

[Shredder]

My knowledge of Maoism is limited but I'm fairly certain that his views on the peasants in revolution contradicts rather than agrees with Trotsky. Trotsky saw the need to use the peasant's support in overthrowing feudalism but ultimately saw them as hostile to the subsequent agenda of the proletariat.

Mao agreed with the peasant's role in revolution but emphasized the subsequent agenda being built specifically around them. This has nothing in common with Trotskyism (or even Marxism as far as I'm concerned.)

[More Fire for the People]

My knowledge of Maoism is limited but I'm fairly certain that his views on the peasants in revolution contradicts rather than agrees with Trotsky. Trotsky saw the need to use the peasant's support in overthrowing feudalism but ultimately saw them as hostile to the subsequent agenda of the proletariat.
Hence Mao was inspired by Trotksy and not a Trotskyist.

[Janus]

"The Perspective of permanent revolution may be summarized in the following way: the complete victory of the democratic revolution in Russia is conceivable only in the form of the dictatorship of the proletariat, leaning on the peasantry. The dictatorship of the proletariat, which would inevitably place on the order of the day not only democratic but socialistic tasks as well, would at the same time give a powerful impetus to the international socialist revolution. Only the victory of the proletariat in the West could protect Russia from bourgeois restoration and assure it the possibility of rounding out the establishment of socialism. Leon Trotsky The Permanent Revolution

As you can see the idea behind the permanent revolution is different from the Cultural Revolution. Trotsky advocated a global revolution rather than socialism in one country. However, it is fundamentally different from Mao's ideas concerning the Cultural Revolution.

Mao stated his theory of luan as the reason for the Cultural Revolution. He believed that the revolution needed to be "purified" so that it would stay fresh in the minds of the younger generation. However, his main reason for supporting the Cultural Revolution was to regain power through a radical change of the Party leadership. The politically uneducated and ignorant youths were used as tools by Mao in order to depose of government officials and rebuild an administration loyal to Mao alone. When this had been accomplished, Mao used the PLA to restore order and break up the Red Guards.

So, it seems obvious that Trotsky's Permanent Revolution idea was much more progressive than Mao's Cultural Revolution. The chaos and instability in China pushed development back and it was further worsened by the Down to the Countryside Movement in 1968.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by Armchair Socialism+Jan 14 2006, 05:13 PM--> (Armchair Socialism @ Jan 14 2006, 05:13 PM)
[email protected] 9 2006, 10:17 PM

However vile Trotskyism is

what the hell?!?! why?

Well as a "revolutionary theory", Trotskyism is a version of Leninism and Leninism is more or less, anti-working class Communism. One only has to read some of the opinions of Leninists (especially the Maoists) to understand what they think of the working class and the prospect of working class power.

Secondly, from what I've read of Trotsky the individual, he was an arrogant and repulsive person. And given the choice, I'd rather spend a day in the company of Stalin (and his "peasant humour") than spend a day in the company of Trotsky. [/b]
Dude

Trotskism is completely and vehemently anti stalinist and maoist. Its a completely different thing.

I dont care if Trotsky was a nice guy to have a beer with. He had some good ideas.

Leninism is not anti working class, stalinism and maoism, the perversions of leninism are.

[romanm]

Just because Trotsky wrote of "permanent revolution" and Maoists used the phrase "continous revolution" do not mean that they mean even remotely the same thing. They mean completely different things.

[Alexknucklehead]

Trotsykyist theory for beginners -

1. Lenin leads Bolshevik revolution - good.
2. Bad man called Stalin ruins everything - not good.

<_< :lol:

[Wanted Man]

Trots are cute. They&#39;ll moo as hard as possible when Stalin&#39;s "body count" is upped by the bourgeoisie, while doing everything they can to justify Kronstadt.

[Shredder]

Anarchists are hilarious. They defend counterrevolution at every turn.

Anyone can see the counterrevolutionary character of the krondstadt rebellion. Any fool knows that it was sponsored by the bourgeoisie and reported in a french newspaper before it even happened. But naturally, the idealistic anarchists cry a river as soon as someone lifts a finger to put down a counterrevolution. This is because they do not believe in practical, real, revolution. They are hippies who still subscribe to a bourgeois morality based on democracy and freedom, so that as soon as revolution takes place, they throw a tantrum about the immorality of taking democracy and freedom away from the bourgeoisie and its agents.

[Led Zeppelin]

Trotskyism is petty-bourgeois revisionism, and it must be opposed by all genuine Communists.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by NewKindOfSoldier+--> (NewKindOfSoldier)Trotskism is completely and vehemently anti stalinist and maoist. Its a completely different thing.[/b]

Yes I am well aware of Trotsky&#39;s "opposition" to Stalin. Though quite what he opposed is beyond me.

In practise Trotsky was every bit as brutal (if not a bit more brutal) as Stalin was and given his chance, I doubt very much a "Trotskyist Russia" would have been that different from a "Stalinist Russia".

So really what are we left with? ....what did Trotsky oppose? ....well, the right to Lenin&#39;s "throne" of course. Change the language and the dates and the arguments would fit in with any of the feudal disputes over which Monarch should rule.


Originally posted by [email protected]
Leninism is not anti working class, stalinism and maoism, the perversions of leninism are.

Tell me, when was the last time you heard any Leninist (of any stripe) say the working class could liberate itself without the help of bourgeois leaders (the vanguard)???


Alexknucklehead
Trotsykyist theory for beginners -

1. Lenin leads Bolshevik revolution - good.
2. Bad man called Stalin ruins everything - not good.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Lamanov]

Originally posted by Marxism&#045;Leninism+Jan 17 2006, 07:45 PM--> (Marxism&#045;Leninism &#064; Jan 17 2006, 07:45 PM) Trotskyism is petty-bourgeois revisionism... [/b]
In its essence, we could say it is. Yes (regardless of the fact that many young militants who adhere to it believe that it is the theory of proletarian revolution).

But this is so only because it is "Orthodox Leninism" in essence.


...and it must be opposed by all genuine Communists.

And "genuine Communists" would be...?


Shredder
Trotsky is my favorite Marxist theorist, though I am not interested in having an "ism" more specific than Marxism for myself.

If you are interested in Trotskyism I would recommend three items for the specific needs and shortcommings of RevLeft posters: Permanent Revolution, some of his writings on fascism...

:lol: You remind me of me 2 years ago, when I was a young "militant" who wanted to understand class struggle through the eyes of bolshevism...

I hope you will use that potential self-criticism (which I have) and come to realize that you identify yourself with the wrong people.

Good luck.