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Amusing Scrotum
3rd January 2006, 04:32
I didn't really want to post this in Opposing Ideologies, because I would prefer to discuss it from a "left" perspective only. However if an admin or mod wishes to move this thread, then go ahead.

Anyway I ran across this piece earlier -- The Intellectual Origins Of America-Bashing by Lee Harris (http://www.policyreview.org/dec02/harris.html) -- obviously it has its standard twaddle, bashing America is "immoral" etc. etc.

However the writer (unlike most critics) seems to have actually read Marx, and better still understood him and he makes some interesting points....


Originally posted by Lee Harris: Marx’s political realism+--> (Lee Harris: Marx’s political realism)What is interesting here is that, once you accept the initial premise about the falling rate of profit, the rest does indeed follow realistically. Now, this does not mean that it follows necessarily or according to an ironclad scientific law; but it certainly conveys what any reasonable person would take as the most probable outcome of a hypothetical failure of capitalism.[/b]

(Italics his, emphasis mine.)

The author does make an interesting point here. He says that we (Marxists) "accept the initial premise about the falling rate of profit". Basically we "accept" this as an act of faith (well almost).

What makes this "acceptance" all the more troubling is that there has been only one indication of this process (the depression in the thirties). Which therefore means that the whole Communist project can be reduced to a hope, on which we only have one (small) fragment of evidence in support of this hypothesis.

Which basically makes (certainly zealous) claims of Marxists being "scientific" Socialists, somewhat dubious.

Therefore I was wondering whether there is any kind of "counter-argument" to this? ....and if there is a lack of one, does this create a (huge) hole in Marxist theory?


Lee Harris: America as “root cause”
The Baran-Wallerstein revision of the classical immiserization thesis into its global context was far better adapted to fix what was wrong in Marxist theory than the revisionist notion of relative immiserization discussed above. For, as we have seen, what was needed was real misery, and not merely comparative misery, since without such misery there would be no breakdown of capitalism: no civil war, no revolution, no socialism. And who can doubt that great real misery exists in the Third World?

I picked this paragraph, not because of its importance, but because of the way it (effectively) mocks post-Marx "immiserization theory." The article itself goes on in detail, and does a reasonable job of pocking holes in these "revisions" of Marxist theory.

However that the theories themselves can be mocked (pretty effectively) in such a short piece, does raise some interesting points.

Namely, have Communists themselves been good enough at looking critically upon post-Marx Marxist theory? ....Marx himself has been subjected to relentless criticism from not just the "right" but the "left" too, and the revolutionary left (Communists and Anarchists) as well. This of course, should happen.

However have post-Marx Marxists been subjected to same levels of investigation? ....I suspect not. Especially those who would be considered "academic" Marxists. It seems to me that there is a tendency for the "left" to accept a certain amount of waffle as long as it "cloaks" itself in Marxist terminology.

Therefore my question is, do you think that the left has failed to live up to its own label (ruthless criticism of everything)? ....and what do you think that the future left can do to avoid falling into this "trap" again?

It seems to me that with regards the second part of that question, the left should be less willing to accept any (bourgeois) academics into "our" camp (willingly). After all, they are trying to make money (and a name for themselves) just like everyone else.

Doing this however, does have its drawbacks. "We" risk losing a lot, but in my opinion the benefits of being just as hostile towards the "left" bourgeois as we would be towards the "right" bourgeois. Would project a certain (proletarian) image and legitimacy, and also help "us" avoid the traps of "pseudo-academia."

JKP
3rd January 2006, 06:49
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...topic=39750&hl= (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=39750&hl=)

Then again, economic predictions are about as accurate as meta-physics.

But at least they present a good case; using the scholar's own math no less.

redstar2000
3rd January 2006, 06:50
Throughout the last century, the critics of Marx (both "right" and "left") gleefully pounded away at the "immiseration of the proletariat" hypothesis...pointing out that the standards-of-living of the working classes in the advanced capitalist countries reached "new highs" with "every passing year".

The "great depression" of the 1930s shut them up for a decade or so...but since then the chorus has just gotten louder.

My take: I think we will see Marx vindicated in this century.

I think a careful examination would show that the standards-of-living of those working classes have stagnated or even slightly declined over the last three decades.

I see nothing to "halt" or "reverse" this trend and, in fact, I think it entirely reasonable to expect it to accelerate.

And this time around, a new version of "World War II" does not appear to be a practical possibility for "ending the next depression"...since it would necessarily involve the serious use of nuclear weapons.

This is why I think there will be real proletarian revolutions exactly where Marx and Engels first predicted them: France, Germany, England, and the United States. We could now add some additional countries to that list, of course. And there's no predicting at this point which countries will be "first".

But I think there are people alive today who are actually going to live to see "the biggie".

And maybe even get to take part in it. :)


Originally posted by Armchair Socialism
Namely, have Communists themselves been good enough at looking critically upon post-Marx Marxist theory?

Short answer: no.

I think that during the last century a lot of the people "doing" Marxist theory were in something of a "scramble" in trying to "save the paradigm" from what appeared at the time to be massive empirical "falsification".

We can't forget that when we try to figure out "macro-trends" in social reality, the human life-span is so damn short.

If what we "predict" isn't happening "right now" or looks "just about to happen", the natural tendency is to "reinterpret" the data or even "re-arrange" the theory so to make the result "come out right".

Sometimes this is what needs to be done...but sometimes it's simply the time frame that is all wrong.

In the late 1870s, both Marx and Engels told the Russian revolutionaries of that era that "their 1789" was "coming soon".

Well, that was true...if you consider nearly 40 years to be "soon".

In my opinion, the "third-world-centric" theories of communist revolution that have been so fashionable lately are probably going to "wither away" for lack of interest...as it becomes clearer and clearer that those revolutions are all 1789s no matter what the rhetoric might be.

In other words, I think Marx was right all along...and this will be "re-discovered" in a whole new series of capitalist crises that will mark the end of capitalism as a viable social order.

There are "interesting times" ahead...and I'm only sorry I won't live long enough to see them.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Severian
3rd January 2006, 12:21
Originally posted by Armchair [email protected] 2 2006, 10:41 PM
The author does make an interesting point here. He says that we (Marxists) "accept the initial premise about the falling rate of profit". Basically we "accept" this as an act of faith (well almost).

What makes this "acceptance" all the more troubling is that there has been only one indication of this process (the depression in the thirties).
That's hardly the only piece of evidence of the rate of profit's tendency to decline. The two aren't all that directly connected, even.

Tracking interest rates over time, and the ratio of dividends to stock prices, would be a good way to test Marx's theory. The longer time period you look at, the better.

I haven't done a detailed look at the stats, but certainly interest rates are remarkably low and have been for some time. And market capitalization of stocks high compared to dividends.

The Bank of Japan's had a zero or near-zero interest rate for years.

Bannockburn
3rd January 2006, 13:19
It is this sort of America that is at the hub of Antonio Negri and Michael Hardt’s revision of Marxism in their intellectually influential book Empire (Harvard University Press, 2000) — a reinterpretation of historical materialism in which the global capitalist system will be overthrown not by those who have helped to create it, namely, the working class, but rather by a polyglot global social force vaguely referred to as “the multitude” — the alleged victims of this system.

I do not even know where to begin with how inaccurate this paragraph is. If the rest of the article is as misunderstood as this, then this dude needs to go back to political theory 101.

I guess to begin with, is that Empire is not some metaphor, or intellectual jargon to signify that which is America, or "Americanism".

Zingu
3rd January 2006, 13:31
Its rather simplistic to think that Marx suggested a lateral degradation of the proletariat from the very start of capitalism...I don't know where that myth got started but...in some ways you can say that is true.

The workers of today make less than the worker of the 1800s did if you look it in a scale of value, the capitalist can produce more with less..for the same wages, making more and more wealth off exploiting us for less..or even more. Of course, its what he does with this wealth that makes all the difference, and will ultimately lead to Crisis Theory, and the "end-game" of capitalism; which will come when 3rd world labor markets are developed into consumer societies like of the first world ones today...then this excess capital has nowhere to go, with no suitable markets to expand in.

THATS when the impoverishment of the proletariat would really begin, its going to be a depression...and its coming fast.

KC
3rd January 2006, 19:33
Originally posted by Marx's Kapital For Beginners
Capital = constant capital + variable capital, or Capital = c + v
Capital' = constant capital + variable capital + surplus value, or Capital' = c + v + s
c = constant capital
v = variable capital
s = surplus value
...
Since v is the source of s, it makes sense to compare s and v. Surplus value/variable capital is the rate of surplus value. When v = 5 and s = 5, s/v = 1 - in other words, this represents an exactly 100% rate of surplus value.

THE RATE OF PROFIT

The rate of profit is the ratio between s and total investment, both constant and variable capital - that is, s/v+c, or s/Capital.

Whenever c is greater than zero, the rate of profit is less than the rate of surplus value. This is very important. Why? Because it helps to explain why there is a tendency for the rate of profit to fall; why capitalism tends to profit-crunches; why, in a word, economic crisis is such a basic part of life in capitalist society.

When c rises there tend to be crises!

The ratio of constant to variable capital we call the organic composition of capial. When c rises relative to v, we say that the organic composition of capital rises. In other words, the more means of production are employed relative to labour-power, the higher is the organic composition of capital.

As everyone knows, capital production tends to rely ever more on increasingly powerful means of production. Every day, high technology gets higher - more powerful machines enter production, and productivity soars. From simple hand tools - spindles, looms, hammers, anvils - production advances to nuclear power plants, automated factories, advanced computer systems, and much, much more.

...

To make a long, unlovely story shorter and sweeter, the point is that competition forces capital to use ever less labour-time per commodity. First, Moneybags cuts the time required to produce a watch from 20 hours to 18. Then Cashbox retaliates by cutting it still further. ANd so it goes, like a tug of war. Cutting prices, as we will see, is a way to cut throats - to eliminate competitors.

The golden rule of competitive profit-making is to produce more for less - to cut costs by cutting the average labour-time required for production. How? By increasing the power of the means of production.

...

What's the connection? Just this: that s derives from v, Variable Capital, not constant capital, produces surplus value. If competition forces capital to employ an ever higher ratio of constant to variable capital - as it clearly does - then the rate of profit (s/v+c) tends to fall.

Basically, the rate of profit falling isn't an act of faith.

Enragé
3rd January 2006, 20:29
the "verelendung" of the proletariat did not happen because of the threat of communist revolutions. Now the threat seems to have past, you can already see how welfare states are being dismantled.

Amusing Scrotum
4th January 2006, 03:48
Originally posted by JKP+Jan 3 2006, 07:00 AM--> (JKP @ Jan 3 2006, 07:00 AM)http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...topic=39750&hl= (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=39750&hl=)

Then again, economic predictions are about as accurate as meta-physics.

But at least they present a good case; using the scholar's own math no less.[/b]

I had a look at thread, and after a few posts my head hurt. :(

I can't (and never will be able to) understand maths (even simple stuff). Therefore, unfortunately, I must rely on cleverer people telling me if X or Y is actually right. Plus I'll have a look at the real world, if someone says that X is happening, and it isn't. I'll conclude that person is wrong at best, at worst a liar.


Originally posted by redstar2000+--> (redstar2000)My take: I think we will see Marx vindicated in this century.[/b]

However, until then Marx's theory remains an interesting hypothesis. Basically Communists should be very careful in the terminology they use when speaking of it, because right now we could probably come across as "prophets" of some sort.


Originally posted by redstar2000
I think that during the last century a lot of the people "doing" Marxist theory were in something of a "scramble" in trying to "save the paradigm" from what appeared at the time to be massive empirical "falsification".

Do you think that this "scrambling" is inevitably damaging? ....won't people start to look upon the "left" as bunch of frauds. Therefore (as I have heard you say with regards Leninist parties) decide there isn't actually anything better out there.

The smallest mistakes by the (revolutionary) "left" in my opinion, adds just a little bit more legitimacy to the ruling class. Lots of "little mistakes" then mean that when revolutionary periods do occur, people will be less willing to look towards revolutionary options.

For instance, it could be argued that the mistakes of the CPUSA in the thirties, meant that in the sixties "Communist ideas" were not given as much time as they could have been given.


[email protected]
I haven't done a detailed look at the stats, but certainly interest rates are remarkably low and have been for some time. And market capitalization of stocks high compared to dividends.

Well you sort of struck on an interesting point there. The "left" in general since Marx hasn't done as much as it could do to find out the "stats." Obviously there are problems, time, resources etc.

However, it's over a century since Marx's death and yet (to my knowledge) there is no "revolutionary institute" looking at the world and drawing conclusions. In my opinion, there should be.


Lazar
Basically, the rate of profit falling isn't an act of faith.

However if there isn't real world evidence (and mountains of it) confirming the theory, then it does become (almost) an act of faith.

Don't get me wrong, I think Marx was right, however if we don't see this visibly (and vividly) then we can't really assert it as a real world theory.