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Enragé
3rd January 2006, 02:48
http://www.studentsfororwell.org/

;)

Guerrilla22
3rd January 2006, 06:25
We had these guys on campus when I was in college, I thought they were a bunch of fuckwits though. Mainly made up of libertarians and progressive types. They constantly oppossed the leftist student organizations, much to the delight of the college republicans, which made them all the more annoying.

Enragé
3rd January 2006, 15:41
wait they actually exist?

thought they were a joke :P (which they still are but yeh...different meaning)

Forward Union
3rd January 2006, 16:57
I would have thought there were a sarcastic group, mainly after reading this


Failures
Any reports of failure are almost certainly lies, the work of thoughtcriminals. Kindly ignore them. SOS does not fail.

followed on by


T-Shirt Design Contest


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Janus
4th January 2006, 01:28
These misguided people take a reactionary novel too far. They might as well try to apply Shakespeare to modern day life or something of that nature. It is not surprising that 1984 is on the high school reading list because of its view of the proletariat. The workers are labeled and viewed as stupid, mindless, and incapable of revolt. The whole theme of the novel is that one should just accept the status quo and that revolution or change is pretty much hopeless. This is why this book comes so highly recommended in American reactionary circles.

Enragé
4th January 2006, 01:38
Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 4 2006, 01:39 AM
The workers are labeled and viewed as stupid, mindless, and incapable of revolt. The whole theme of the novel is that one should just accept the status quo and that revolution or change is pretty much hopeless.
No

and

NO

the workers are not labeled as hopeless, just lulled into a deep sleep. In fact, the main character states time and time again "if there is hope, it lies with the proles, if there is hope it must lie in the proles"

The theme of the novel is that you should resist even if you know that you'll die eventually, the theme is that something can be perverted into the exact opposite of which it once was ("IngSoc betrayed everything socialism stood for, and did so in the name of socialism" or something along those lines).



and
that site is a joke, its satire

Enragé
4th January 2006, 01:40
and the reason why its so popular is because the book is easily mistaken as a critique of marxism as a whole, and not of stalinism (which it is)

Janus
4th January 2006, 02:03
Yes, Winston states it but his opinion is unimportant. His opinion is pretty much useless as the party easily keeps the proles under control. The proles are characterized as dim witted animals who have no desire for rebellion or any unity at all, they're not going to awake. Why would the point of the novel be to resist, the reader clearly sees that Winston's resistance was insignificant. Nothing changed in the book. The people who recommended it want the reader to see that change is hopeless. Resistance to the party in the novel is not only futile because it is physically and psychologically impossible but will soon be linguistically impossible. How can future generations particularly the proles undermine the party when deviation from party doctrine is impossible with the party omniscient. Remember that fighting against Big Brother actually made Winston conform more, which is why the view of the book is so pessimistic. It's a piece of literature, so we're bound to have different opinions of it.

The book is a criticism of Stalinism directly but is a criticism of Marxism indirectly. Do you actually think that the school board woud recommend this book because it is a beacon of hope for revolutionaries? If that were the case, then why didn't Orwell allow Winston to join an actual underground movement. Besides, there's already been a discussion of this in the Literature section.

Enragé
4th January 2006, 15:10
Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 4 2006, 02:14 AM
Yes, Winston states it but his opinion is unimportant. His opinion is pretty much useless as the party easily keeps the proles under control. The proles are characterized as dim witted animals who have no desire for rebellion or any unity at all, they're not going to awake. Why would the point of the novel be to resist, the reader clearly sees that Winston's resistance was insignificant. Nothing changed in the book. The people who recommended it want the reader to see that change is hopeless. Resistance to the party in the novel is not only futile because it is physically and psychologically impossible but will soon be linguistically impossible. How can future generations particularly the proles undermine the party when deviation from party doctrine is impossible with the party omniscient. Remember that fighting against Big Brother actually made Winston conform more, which is why the view of the book is so pessimistic. It's a piece of literature, so we're bound to have different opinions of it.

The book is a criticism of Stalinism directly but is a criticism of Marxism indirectly. Do you actually think that the school board woud recommend this book because it is a beacon of hope for revolutionaries? If that were the case, then why didn't Orwell allow Winston to join an actual underground movement. Besides, there's already been a discussion of this in the Literature section.
Not characterized as dim witted animals, but kept so by the party/state apparatus, kept silence by the lottery, the illusion of the possibility of wealth (which is actually comparable to the situation now)

Winston's resistance was insignificant on the whole, but still better than conforming. Even though he died, was utterly smashed, his resistance was worth it.

Its not about whether the party endures forever, its about how things can get fucked and eventually become to mean the opposit. Its a warning, a warning to revolutionaries not to trust leaders, not to give anyone such a position in which he can do these things.

And the linguistical impossibility is only so for those within the party, the newspeak is not to be imposed on the proles, thus adding to it that the proles are the only hope.

Essentially its even a comparison to todays society. All which is needed is the unification of the proles against their masters, they would deal with them like a horse shaking off flies. The only problem is that it doesnt seem likely, nor does it seem likely in today's society.



Regardless of what you think of the book as a whole, the main point is that its a warning, a warning and a critique of stalinism, personality cults etc...not of marxism himself. Bear in mind that orwell himself fought in POUM (bunch o' trots) in the spanish civil war.
Its not a beacon of hope, its a warning, but not against marxism. The book clearly states that though the things were done in the name of the party and in the name of socialism, they were in fact the opposite to socialism.

Janus
5th January 2006, 01:46
Yes, I understand your view point and agree with some of it. Remember that it is literature, so we're all bound to have different viewpoints of it. As long as these views are directly contradicted by the author or text, they are somewhat valid. However, don't you find it unusal that a book designed for revolutionaries would be on the US high school reading list?

Enragé
5th January 2006, 02:44
Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 5 2006, 01:57 AM
However, don't you find it unusal that a book designed for revolutionaries would be on the US high school reading list?
not really, because without background knowledge of marxism (and its history) and to a degree of orwell (and his history) you can easily mistake it for an anti-communist book. The same goes for animal farm (which is even more obviously only an anti-stalinist critique)

Janus
5th January 2006, 04:16
That may be the point of issuing the book in the first place. Since so few students these days have any real understanding of communism, they believe that Orwell's books are critiques of communism. In class discussions of 1984 or Animal Farm, the students sometimes use the book as examples of why communism can't work.

Enragé
5th January 2006, 16:11
yeh, i find such things incredibly frustrating.

Guerrilla22
5th January 2006, 17:50
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 03:52 PM
wait they actually exist?

thought they were a joke :P (which they still are but yeh...different meaning)
yeah, unfortunately, there was a chapter of these douches at the University of Colorado, I think there still is, anyways they're a bunch of douches, most of 'em seem to be conservatives trying to pose as something cool.

gewehr_3
7th January 2006, 22:29
They cant be real can they? on the website it says we are at war with afghanistan (crossed out) and then it says Iraq We have always been at war with afghanistan (again crossed out) Iraq.

its kind of wierd that tey acnowlege that they were at war with afghanistan before iraq.

Are you sur its not a joke?

plus they have a picture of orwell. orwell(eric blair) hated anything authoritarian

pedro san pedro
8th January 2006, 00:21
it's kinda obvious that its a satrical site.

1984
8th January 2006, 23:48
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 04:22 PM
yeh, i find such things incredibly frustrating.
Me too, and I should add more - not only students, but perhaps the misunderstanding of Orwell's books as being anti-communists seem to be general among the common people.

If you ask anybody on the streets how he/she feels about socialism, you'll probably get a description of how miserable the people in 1984 live - all dressed the same and thinking the same, much like puppets.

:unsure:

The capitalists use this as an instrument to convince the people that socialism/communism is just "utopic nonsense".

<_<