Israeli/Palestinian Conflict [Archive]

viva le revolution

2nd January 2006, 22:30

Well my knowledge may be a little sketchy but here goes,
The european Zionist movement was agitating using a platform of jewish nationalism( an oxymoron itself), however they got stonewalled on many occasions. World war one broke out. Palestine was part of the ottoman empire but was inhabited by Muslim and Christian Palestinians. To gain support from Jewish populations and partly to help finance the british war effort the british government offered Jewsish businessmen( who comprised the entire Zionist movement at the time) the right to settle in Palestine. This brought support for the british war effort from jewish populations. However, when T.E Lawrence was spearheading the arab uprising against the Turks, the british government promised an independant Palestine to be populated by Arabs, in return for Arab support. Thus the Arab Nationalist movement supported the british war effort. However once the war ended and Palestine became a British mandate, both sides pressurized the british to live up to the promises made to each community. To appease both sides the british drew up the 'balfour declaration' which gave the Jews the right to settle in Palestine. The Zionist movement began a program to transport european jewish populations to Palestine. However the initial rate of emigration was low. The Jews saw the balfour declaration as permission to establish a jewish state, the palestinians, already living there from the beginning, resented this as they envisioned an independant palestine for the Arabs, not a jewish state. Massive rioting broke out but led to an uneasy peace. World war2 broke out and european jews came in droves. In an effort to amass land for the future state of israel, jewish gangs and rioters expeeled arabs from their homes in 1948 and forced them into the west bank and Gaza.
This was the inception of the state of Israel.
As we can plainly see, the entire conflict has arisen out of Colonial imperialism and the utmost dishonesty of the british government. The british were actually responsible for causing the conflict.
Today, Israel serves as one of the last outposts of colonialism and a comprador, mercenary state of american imperialism. The last outposts of official state sponsered racism and apartheid. Where the vast majority of israeli's are of european and american origin while the indeginous arab population consisting of muslims and christians are brutally denied the right of self-determination.

Correa

2nd January 2006, 22:35

Although they have their major differences think of the Anglo invasion of the Americas in 1492 and how they displaced Native Americans. This is what the "Israelis" have done to the native peoples of Palestine. Israel in effect is built on top of Palestine in a similar fashion the US is build on top of the Native American lands. Consider "reservations" here in the states and the Palestinian pockets Israel has created in the region. It is also important to regocnize they are one with the US, take the UN votes regarding the Cuban embargo. The only ones that vote for the status quo is the US and their puppets such as Israel. If the US succedes in their recent adventure in Iraq it too will be added to the list of US minions.

Ol' Dirty

2nd January 2006, 23:17

The Grey Blur

2nd January 2006, 23:46

Both sides are very religous and belive that god intended there people to live on the land and that the other side is wrong.
I've heard groups like the PLO and other Plaestinian liberation groups describe their resistance as a rebellion against Imperialism, not as some religious war. And even if it is primely religious resistance that's fine by me; they've had their culture, religion and lifes opressed, they have every justification for resistance to Israeli imperialism.

2 peoples blinded by faith + 1 land = long bitter conflict.
So this is just a religious conflict? It has nothing to do with the duplicity of Imperialist Britain or Isreal's brutal repression of the Palestinians?

Plus, there is plenty of Socialist/anti-Imperialist resistance in Palestine which should be supported critically by all Leftists.

DeathtoPrejudice

3rd January 2006, 00:54

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 10:11 PM
Sorry i dont have a great knowledge of the topic but if it helps, The muslims had lived in Palastine(now Isreal) for a long time, after WW1 the zionist movement started agitating for a jewish home land, after WW2 that movement gained huge support and the Plastinians were told to get out. Both sides are very religous and belive that god intended there people to live on the land and that the other side is wrong. 2 peoples blinded by faith + 1 land = long bitter conflict.

P.S. i am terribly sorry if I misspelt anything i mean no disrespect
This is the most acceptible third party summary of the conflict in the thread.

Basically, two peoples want the same plot of land, both sides are very religious and this land is considered holy.

Of course this land is holy to christians too, but there isn't really a Christian population to speak of and no Christian movement to colonize the area.

So this is just a religious conflict? It has nothing to do with the duplicity of Imperialist Britain or Isreal's brutal repression of the Palestinians?

Not true, but it ALL comes down to religion in the conflict. It's a damned conflict and further evidence of mankinds inability to get along with one another.

The conflict is one big mistake, it's prime ingredients, are religious conflict with one another, and pure hate. And frankly it's WRONG to take sides in such a conflict where nobody is a winner, and everything is death and hate..

The Grey Blur

3rd January 2006, 02:45

This is the most acceptible third party summary of the conflict in the thread.
"Most acceptable"? To whom - apologists for Israeli Imperialism? Vive Le Revolution's explanation was better, longer and less partisan.

Basically, two peoples want the same plot of land, both sides are very religious and this land is considered holy.
Listen mate, I know very little of this conflict but I do know that the PLO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLO#Membership) don't consider Palestine 'holy land', they simply want freedom.

it ALL comes down to religion in the conflict.
I am not majorly knowledgable on this conflict apart from bits and pieces about the PLO and Yasser Arafat but I do know that Israel took Palestinian land by force and have opressed them for a long time; as a Socialist these are things I'm opposed to and thus I support the Palestinian Liberation Movement.

further evidence of mankinds inability to get along with one another.
No it's not, it's just another example of how Capitalism leads inevitably to Imperialism and thus the opression of others.

The conflict is one big mistake, it's prime ingredients, are religious conflict with one another, and pure hate.
You no longer sound as if you are merely unknowledgable like myself; it seems you're actively spreading anti-Palestinian propaganda by implying this is nothing but a religious war when in fact it is one of the greatest Imperialist wrongs ever.

And frankly it's WRONG to take sides in such a conflict where nobody is a winner, and everything is death and hate..
No, all Leftists are by our Ideology anti-Imperialist and anti-Opressionist; thus we should give critical but unconditional support to the movement for Palestinian Liberation.

BTW - I believe I once read on these boards someone saying "there is no Israeli Imperialism; it's 'Zionism'" - if that is correct then I'm sory for my ignorance, simply change all my 'Imperialism' comments into 'Zionism' comments.

Guerrilla22

3rd January 2006, 06:06

To say the conflict is all about religion is ridiculous. its a primary key in the reason both sides are fighting in the first place, but one has to take into consideration that the Palestinian cause is one of national liberation and freedom. Palestine is not a state, its an occupied territory of Israel, who is building a giant wall around this territory, cutting different towns off from one another, just as the Nazis did to the Jews with their ghetto system and the Afikaaners did to the black South Africans during the apartheid era.

boosh logic

3rd January 2006, 11:55

Hey thanks I didnt expect such a great response!
So on the subject of Britain am I right in saying that they tried to make things better for the Jews after the holocaust by providing them with the land, but in doing so turned the new Israeli authority into oppressors themselves?

Also, I've heard that the US supports Israel because there are a lot of Jews in the USA who they depend on votes from, so whether or not Palestine or Israel is in right they will always defend the Zionist Imperialism in Israel?

Thanks again

RedJacobin

3rd January 2006, 16:08

this is a very interesting book:

Our Roots Are Still Alive: The Story of the Palestinian People (http://www.newjerseysolidarity.org/resources/roots/)

bur372

3rd January 2006, 18:26

Starting initally from the 1890 although it happened mainly after ww1 There was large emigration to palestine by the jewish people. It eneded up something like 30-40% of palestine was jewish.

However tese were liberal secular jews look at the kibbutzim!

The main problem is not the israels or palenstians but percived need of support from jewish and arab poulations outside of the dispued territory.

It has little to do with religon per say but more to do with the people who are backing bot countries.

See ben gurion's deal with the religous in 1948.

jaster

3rd January 2006, 19:35

there are a bunch of good sites to check out among them are

aljazeera.com, non-affilliated with the quatari newsnetwork
Free Palistine Now at studentorg.vcu.edu/fpn/

there are also some good books, my fav is 'occupied voices' by wendy pearlmen.

DeathtoPrejudice

3rd January 2006, 20:33

"Most acceptable"? To whom - apologists for Israeli Imperialism? Vive Le Revolution's explanation was better, longer and less partisan.

No, not apologists for Israeli imperialism. It is the most third party explanation for the conflict one can give, thus the most acceptable. The only thing that it leaves out, is that currently the Israelis hold the most power in the conflict, with their tanks and their helicopters and their very professional army. But that is irrelevent, the Israelis blow up a guy in a wheelchair with hellfire missles, and Palestine sets off a few suicide bombers on Israeli buses... Nobodies right, and this isn't leading to peace, it is leading to more bloodshed. One day the Palestinians might seize power, and their roles would be reversed.

I don't see this conflict ever coming to a end, at least not in my liftetime.

Listen mate, I know very little of this conflict but I do know that the PLO don't consider Palestine 'holy land', they simply want freedom.

Jerusalem? Israel/Palestine is holy to both sides, many relics and buildings and happenings important to all 3 of the sister religions occured there... Yes, to devote Muslims this place is holy.

I am not majorly knowledgable on this conflict apart from bits and pieces about the PLO and Yasser Arafat but I do know that Israel took Palestinian land by force and have opressed them for a long time; as a Socialist these are things I'm opposed to and thus I support the Palestinian Liberation Movement.

The zionist movement wanted to move back to the holy land post-WWII. When large amounts of immigrants arrived, there was already trouble.

No it's not, it's just another example of how Capitalism leads inevitably to Imperialism and thus the opression of others.

That is not, what this is portraying at all. It IS portraying mankindns inability to get along, or work together a a comon goal. Israel is a cesspool for violence and terror, both sides are commiting crimes and both sides fail to see that what they are doing is NOT helping to end it. Both sides, are wrong.

You no longer sound as if you are merely unknowledgable like myself; it seems you're actively spreading anti-Palestinian propaganda by implying this is nothing but a religious war when in fact it is one of the greatest Imperialist wrongs ever.

anti-palestine propaganda? Since when have i taken sides. This conflict is wrong, it should never have happened. The reason it started was the zionist movement wanted to return to their 'holy land.' When they started arriving it's been nothing but trouble since (not including the less known, mass imigration in the late 1800's, which went relatively peacefully).

And i have my fair share of knowledge regarding the matter, Palestine was once comprised of two modern states. Jordan and Israel, and the British gained control of it after the central powers defeat in WWI. Britain Divided Palestine into 2 seperate sections, 20-30% which is known as modern day israel, would be the Jewish only section. The remaining portion, Much larger, would be the arab only section. It was the british decision to try and divy things up fairly. And i suspect it was to try and avoid conflict, but conflict came anyway... and one of histories longest mistakes began, the conflict.

No, all Leftists are by our Ideology anti-Imperialist and anti-Opressionist; thus we should give critical but unconditional support to the movement for Palestinian Liberation.

BTW - I believe I once read on these boards someone saying "there is no Israeli Imperialism; it's 'Zionism'" - if that is correct then I'm sory for my ignorance, simply change all my 'Imperialism' comments into 'Zionism' comments.

The 'Zionist' Movement was the movement to return to the 'holy land.'

The conflict is wrong, the fighting is wrong, the atempts to keep each other down are wrong... BOTH sides are wrong, the Israelis for trying to control the Palestinians, and target some of their important leaders. And the Palestinians for blowing themselves up on buses...

Both sides have blood on their hands, and both sides are wrong...

sleepy1

3rd January 2006, 21:46

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 12:04 PM
Hey thanks I didnt expect such a great response!
So on the subject of Britain am I right in saying that they tried to make things better for the Jews after the holocaust by providing them with the land, but in doing so turned the new Israeli authority into oppressors themselves?

Also, I've heard that the US supports Israel because there are a lot of Jews in the USA who they depend on votes from, so whether or not Palestine or Israel is in right they will always defend the Zionist Imperialism in Israel?

Thanks again
No not really Britains vote in the U.N convention concerning the establishment of Israel was abstainer. I suggest you read vive la revolutions post again to see the MAJOR part Britain had in this conflict.
As for the other thing you wrote, it sounds a lot like the things our "beloved" WN would say. The jewish population in the U.S is roughly 1%, if the U.S counts on anything from the jews its definetly no their votes. African americans and Hispanic take a real significant part in the U.S population and they are still treated like shit.

The Grey Blur

3rd January 2006, 21:54

It is the most third party explanation for the conflict one can give, thus the most acceptable.
There's no such thing as 'most third party' and anyway, Viva Le Revolution's explanation (as I said earlier) is longer, more detailed and a lot more accurate.

The only thing that it leaves out, is that currently the Israelis hold the most power in the conflict,
They always have

Palestine sets off a few suicide bombers on Israeli buses
Those are religious extremist groups like Hamas that do so; not the group that represents the majority of Palestinians, the PLO, who want a secular, Leftist (there are quite a few Marxist-Leninist groups in the PLO) possibly bi-national state where Palestinians can live freely.

Nobodies right
So you think the PLO are wrong? To reiterate (and to condense that Wiki article) - they are willing to talk with Israel, they want a Palestinian State (possibly a shared state of Israel and Palestine), they are not averse to carrying out attacks on Israeli armed forces in the Palestinian territories, they want a secular state and they are heavily Socialist.

That's who I want your view of, not the minority of religious extremists.

One day the Palestinians might seize power, and their roles would be reversed.
You know as well as I do that this will never happen as long as Israel is one of the greatest allies of the US.

I don't see this conflict ever coming to a end, at least not in my liftetime.
You would rather the Palestinian leadership compromised; you think they should accept these pathetic reforms proposed by the US and other 'mediators' in the Middle East? I think the Palestinians are entitled to their dignity.

Since when have i taken sides
Since you described/ misconstrued the Palestinian Liberation Movement as being a holy war.

Jerusalem? Israel/Palestine is holy to both sides, many relics and buildings and happenings important to all 3 of the sister religions occured there... Yes, to devote Muslims this place is holy.
No, see you obviously didn't go that Wiki article are you would realize the large coalition of Palestinian Liberation Groups called the PLO are a-religious; they are of a majority Arab Nationalists/ Communists who see freedom to practice religion as a human right; not as a justification for a Holy War.

The zionist movement wanted to move back to the holy land post-WWII. When large amounts of immigrants arrived, there was already trouble
? :blink: ...what on earth does that have to do with this paragraph you quoted

I am not majorly knowledgable on this conflict apart from bits and pieces about the PLO and Yasser Arafat but I do know that Israel took Palestinian land by force and have opressed them for a long time; as a Socialist these are things I'm opposed to and thus I support the Palestinian Liberation Movement.

...

That is not, what this is portraying at all
You are a Marxist, right? This Zionist Imperialism is an extension of Capitalist principles of making more money at any cost. Religion and it's intrepretation by the Zionists is the root of the problem but also the industry of war is what is driving the conflict; who gets the most out of this conflict? It's not the Israelis or Palestinians - it's the Capitalists

Israel is a cesspool for violence and terror, both sides are commiting crimes and both sides fail to see that what they are doing is NOT helping to end it.
Why do you refer to the area we are talking about as 'Israel'? It's Palestine we're talking about.

Both sides, are wrong
What a hilariously immature attitude

not including the less known, mass imigration in the late 1800's, which went relatively peacefully
It went peacefully because they didn't have the numbers or power to take over right away.

It was the british decision to try and divy things up fairly
Those good old Brits... :rolleyes:

No, all Leftists are by our Ideology anti-Imperialist and anti-Opressionist; thus we should give critical but unconditional support to the movement for Palestinian Liberation. - This is a statment of fact; are you not a Socialist then?

bur372

3rd January 2006, 22:43

Can people just rember that the orginal zionist movement was secular leftist. And that most israelies are libertarian secular.

The PLA are secular and most palenstians are secular.

This is not a religous war between two countries it is a percived religous war between a minority of two relgious followers and a war between two different idealogies who want to control the middle east.

Dark Exodus

3rd January 2006, 22:55

So you think the PLO are wrong? You believe Israel should be allowed to rule over the Palestinians and oppress every facet of their culture?

He clearly said nobody is right, that includes Isreal. This glaring error does a discredit to the rest of your argument.

The Grey Blur

3rd January 2006, 23:51

I've changed the wording.

This is not a religous war between two countries it is a percived religous war between a minority of two relgious followers and a war between two different idealogies who want to control the middle east.
Thank you, that is what I have been trying to put across.

DeathtoPrejudice

4th January 2006, 00:17

There's no such thing as 'most third party' and anyway, Viva Le Revolution's explanation (as I said earlier) is longer, more detailed and a lot more accurate.

If you claim to know so little, how do you know it's much more accurate? Longer and more detailed, yes.

They always have

No, they gained power after WWII.

Those are religious extremist groups like Hamas that do so; not the group that represents the majority of Palestinians, the PLO, who want a secular, Leftist (there are quite a few Marxist-Leninist groups in the PLO) possibly bi-national state where Palestinians can live freely.

They both want the same thing, Hamas and the PLO are mutual allies. bi-national states where they can live freely? over 70% of what was originally Palestine is still in arabic/muslim hands... It's called Jordan.

So you think the PLO are wrong? To reiterate (and to condense that Wiki article) - they are willing to talk with Israel, they want a Palestinian State (possibly a shared state of Israel and Palestine), they are not averse to carrying out attacks on Israeli armed forces in the Palestinian territories, they want a secular state and they are heavily Socialist.

That's who I want your view of, not the minority of religious extremists.

I wouldn't call the religios extremists, the minority. In the middle-east most everyone is highly devote muslim, and in the case of israel, muslim/jewish.

If the PLO would work for peace they would have my support, if either side works for peace they would have my support. So long as both sides takes up arms (or helicopters,tanks,suicide bombers) against each other, i shall spit on both their causes.

You know as well as I do that this will never happen as long as Israel is one of the greatest allies of the US.

Stranger things have happened.

You would rather the Palestinian leadership compromised; you think they should accept these pathetic reforms proposed by the US and other 'mediators' in the Middle East? I think the Palestinians are entitled to their dignity.

I said, i don't think the conflict would come to a end, at least in my lifetime.

No, see you obviously didn't go that Wiki article are you would realize the large coalition of Palestinian Liberation Groups called the PLO are a-religious; they are of a majority Arab Nationalists/ Communists who see freedom to practice religion as a human right; not as a justification for a Holy War.

The PLO, aren't the only ones fighting Israel. I am referring to the Palestinian resistence, in general.

You are a Marxist, right? This Zionist Imperialism is an extension of Capitalist principles of making more money at any cost. Religion and it's intrepretation by the Zionists is the root of the problem but also the industry of war is what is driving the conflict; who gets the most out of this conflict? It's not the Israelis or Palestinians - it's the Capitalists

I am a Realist (that's what i have come to call my beliefs, in the form of my own ideology), not a Marxist. I don't see how capitalism has any place in this 'conflict for the hold land' the Israelis are so deeply entrenched in. Nobody, is getting anything out of this conflict but bloodied hands and tombstones. And Zionism is what is known as the Movement to return to the holyland, i don't see how it can be associated as imperialism. Zionism is a religious endeavor.

Why do you refer to the area we are talking about as 'Israel'? It's Palestine we're talking about.

Israel, is what's on the globe. Israel is the earthbound name of this battlefield, that's why i call it Israel. Palestine was a state that was Dissolved a few years after WWII, and what was once Palestine is now Israel and Jordan, and Israel is where the conflict is.

What a hilariously immature attitude

Unbiased, attitude.

No, all Leftists are by our Ideology anti-Imperialist and anti-Opressionist; thus we should give critical but unconditional support to the movement for Palestinian Liberation. - This is a statment of fact; are you not a Socialist then?

This statement, basically says you should always support the underdogs. At least that's how i see it, and no, I am a Realist. I see it for what it really is, a mistake that just won't rectify.

Johnny Serrure

4th January 2006, 05:13

That Wiki article is highly suspect. I was watching a BBC Documentary on the Conflict and Yasser Arafat Was screaming about Driving the Jews to the Sea.

That being said the early Zionist movement (and largely remains) Socialist. The Way I see it there's really only one solution to the Jeruselam problem, make it either and Independent City-State, or a UN protectorate.

That, or nuke the place.

Guerrilla22

4th January 2006, 09:44

I'm not sure how some people seem to be linking the early zionist movement to socialism. Zionism is a religious ideology based on the belief that the land of Israel was promised to the Jews by god, there is a type of labor zionist movement, but I would hardly call it "socailist".

The early zionist movement collaborated with the Nazis, because they thought that the Nazis would purge the more moderate Jews and that their actions would muster support from the rest of the world for the establishment of a Jewish homelan, which it did.

bur372

4th January 2006, 13:27

The early zionist movement was secular.

The orthodox did not support the early zionist movement because they belived israel could only be give nto the jews as a holy land by God or the messiah.

That being said the early Zionist movement (and largely remains) Socialist. The Way I see it there's really only one solution to the Jeruselam problem, make it either and Independent City-State, or a UN protectorate.

Well said or jerusalem could be put under the control of a neutral third party (such as sweden)

Aranthus

4th January 2006, 17:50

Allow me to offer an alternative to the views so far expressed on this thread. The heart of the conflict is sovereignty, more specifically, whether or not there should be a Jewish State in any part of the Holy Land.

The conflict is not about religion, although religion informs, inflames, and sometimes motivates the conflict. For example, the Jews do claim that they are entitled to a state in the Holy Land in part because God decreed that they should have it (and Muslims have a similar doctrine called Waqf). However, that is not the only reason that Jews claim a right to a state. In part this is because Jewish identity is not only religious. It is based on three pillars of belief: God, Law, and Nation. The Jews are not merely claiming a religious right (which should have little or no meaning to non-Jews, any more than Waqf should have meaning for non-Muslims). They are claiming a national right. Jews believe that they are a nation, and that the Holy land is their ancient homeland. The Arabs, for their part were quite content to have Jews in their midst as long as the Jews lived under Arab rule (usually as second class citizens). So the conflict is not strictly religious.

Nor is the war strictly about land. For example it is commonly known that at the time of the creation of Israel, Jews privately owned between 7% and 9% of the the territory of Palestine west of the Jordan River (Arabs owned about 20% and the rest was owned by the government). Some of that the people on either side had owned for centuries, and some was more recently purchased. Yet, just the other day in the online edition of Counterpunch, Paul de Rooij wrote that ALL of Israel is on land stolen from the Palestinians. Well if the Jews owned at least 7% of the land, how could ALL of it be stolen? de Rooij is either grossly ignorant, lying, or he means something other than simple ownership when he says that all of Israel is on stolen land.

That something else is sovereignty; the right of a people to have a government over a particular piece of land. The basic facts are that at the time of the creation of Israel, most of the Jews in Palestine had come there from other countries. Most of the Jews wanted to have at least all of Palestine West of the Jordan to recreate the ancient state of Israel, but were willing to settle for less than that in order to compromise with the Arabs (a significant portion were not, and wanted to take it all). On the other side, most of the Arabs living in Palestine at the time were fairly recent immigrants from other countries as well. For a variety of reasons they did not want a Jewish state in any part of Palestine, and were unwilling to compromise on the issue. In November, 1947, the UN General Assembly reccommended to the British that they split Western Palestine between the Jews and the Arabs (the infamous Partition Resolution). Although the British had no intention of doing any such thing, and were simply trying to get out of Palestine as soon as they could, the Arabs of Palestine went to war to prevent the Jews from creating a state. Since 1947, additional hurts and claims (the refugee issue, for example) have been layered on top of the basic conflict. However, the root of the war continues to be the existance of a Jewish state, and the Arab refusal to accept it.

All of the other claims, positions, possible solutions and arguments fall on one side or the other of the basic divide. You either believe that the Jews had a right to create a state of their own in some part of Palestine or you don't.

Aranthus

4th January 2006, 18:58

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 12:06 PM
Hey thanks I didnt expect such a great response!
So on the subject of Britain am I right in saying that they tried to make things better for the Jews after the holocaust by providing them with the land, but in doing so turned the new Israeli authority into oppressors themselves?

Also, I've heard that the US supports Israel because there are a lot of Jews in the USA who they depend on votes from, so whether or not Palestine or Israel is in right they will always defend the Zionist Imperialism in Israel?

Thanks again
Well no. Neither of the suppositions you have posted is true.

As far as the British trying to "make things better for the Jews" after the Holocaust, the truth is that the British actively prevented Jews from coming to Palestine from before World War II began. As of 1939, the British prohibited Jewish immigration to Palestine, and continued to prevent it after the war. Those Jews who came to Palestine while under British rule after 1939, were mostly smuggled in. The British also took steps to disarm and arrest the Jewish militia after the war. So the British did not help the Jews. They certainly did not provide the Jews with land.

The reasons for US support of Israel are multi-faceted and complex, and can not be traced simply to the claim you make. Certainly American Jews are politically active, but so are many other groups. There are several more important reasons for US support of Israel.

1. Israelis (Jews) seem more like Americans, aside from the fact that Israel seems to be a democracy. The American nation, more than any other, is defined by what it believes. There is no American race, no blood connection, that is necessary to be an American. There is such a blood connection necessary to be truly French, Japanese, or most other nationalities. Number two on the list of nations defined by what they believe rather than by bloodline is the Jews. Even more important, most of the social and cultural values that Americans live by are Judeo-Christian. In that way Americans are closer to the Jews than they are to any other nation, even the British.

2. Most Americans who think about the issues, believe that the Israelis are more in the right than the Arabs. As I stated in an earlier post, the conflict is really about the Jews right to have a state of their own, and the Arab denial of that right. Most Americans come down on the Jewish side of that argument.

Atlas Swallowed

4th January 2006, 21:19

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 07:09 PM
The reasons for US support of Israel are multi-faceted and complex, and can not be traced simply to the claim you make. Certainly American Jews are politically active, but so are many other groups. There are several more important reasons for US support of Israel.

1. Israelis (Jews) seem more like Americans, aside from the fact that Israel seems to be a democracy. The American nation, more than any other, is defined by what it believes. There is no American race, no blood connection, that is necessary to be an American. There is such a blood connection necessary to be truly French, Japanese, or most other nationalities. Number two on the list of nations defined by what they believe rather than by bloodline is the Jews. Even more important, most of the social and cultural values that Americans live by are Judeo-Christian. In that way Americans are closer to the Jews than they are to any other nation, even the British.

2. Most Americans who think about the issues, believe that the Israelis are more in the right than the Arabs. As I stated in an earlier post, the conflict is really about the Jews right to have a state of their own, and the Arab denial of that right. Most Americans come down on the Jewish side of that argument.
First of all it is not Jews in general that need to be discussed it is the Zionist movement. The Zionist are Jewish supremicists that do not represent all Jews. The Zionists have held many positions of power in the US and England for years (currently in the US known as neo-cons). They have actively used their power for the formation and then for the betterment of Israel. I am not implying that their is a "World wide Jewish conspiracy" that is faschist nonsense. As mentioned priviously the Zionists do not represent all Jews and they are forthright about their beliefs and goals so their is no conspiracy.

Israel is only a democracy for light skinned Jews, it is actually a racist theocracy. Christians, Muslims and darker skinned Jews have less or no rights in Israel. I have no problem with the Jewish people having their own state but the problem is it was already occupied therefore they have no right to it. If someone stole your land brought war onto your people, made life miserable for you and your familly and actively tried to destroy your culture because some ancient storm god said that they were his chosen people and what is yours belongs to them, you would have every reason to fight back. If you did not fight back then you would be a gutless coward.

As for the continous US support of Israel even when it goes against US interests. Israel spies on the US more than any other nation. Are you familliar with the term blackmail?
You do not think on the issues, you think what the corporate controlled media tells you to think. Your views are naive.

Johnny Serrure

4th January 2006, 23:47

Originally posted by Atlas [email protected] 4 2006, 09:30 PM
First of all it is not Jews in general that need to be discussed it is the Zionist movement. The Zionist are Jewish supremicists that do not represent all Jews. The Zionists have held many positions of power in the US and England for years (currently in the US known as neo-cons). They have actively used their power for the formation and then for the betterment of Israel. I am not implying that their is a "World wide Jewish conspiracy" that is faschist nonsense. As mentioned priviously the Zionists do not represent all Jews and they are forthright about their beliefs and goals so their is no conspiracy.

Israel is only a democracy for light skinned Jews, it is actually a racist theocracy. Christians, Muslims and darker skinned Jews have less or no rights in Israel. If someone stole your land brought war onto your people, made life miserable for you and your familly and actively tried to destroy your culture because some ancient storm god said that they were his chosen people and what is yours belongs to them, you would have every reason to fight back. If you did not fight back then you would be a gutless coward.

As for the continous US support of Israel even when it goes against US interests. Israel spies on the US more than any other nation. Are you familliar with the term blackmail?
You do not think on the issues, you think what the corporate controlled media tells you to think. Your views are naive.
Most Jews Believe in the right of Israel to exist. Therefore Most Jews are Zionists. I love the whole ZOG or Right-Wing Zionist Conspiracy, especially because when you go off to the Right they use the same argument, except instead of "Neo-Con" They Substitute the Word "Communist." Try the National Alliance or *************** and see for yourself.

Secondly you have confused the argument of who is a Jew. If we're going to classify Jew as an ethinicity then Christian of Jewish heritage have acces to citizenship under the right of return, as to Sephardic (Hispano-Arabian) Jews, under current law (which many secular Israelis--Over 60% are secular--are trying to ammend). Black Jews if deemed of Jewish Heritage are allowed under Right of Return. The Black Hebrew movement (Similar to the nation of Islam, except Jewish) are given Resident Status and are exempt from Military service.

The Reasons for the Zionist movement ARE NOT RELIGIOUS: The Halakha (Orthodox Oral Law) Strictly forbids a Jewish State until the "messiah" arrives. Some Ultra-Orthodox Groups go far as to support the PLO in hopes of Destroying Israel.

Sidenote: Chosen People has nothing to do with "priveleged" or "better" so much as obligated. The meaning of the verse is basically: All other people's of the Earth should Follow 7 rules. (God) has "chosen" you to be examples so you get to follow 613!

Finally, Israel spies on the U.S. more than any other nation? Where are you getting this? are you in charge of the CIA? or Mossad? If you are, what are you doing on this forum? Or did you just make that up? You sir do not think on the Issues. You think what the on-line "resistance" tells you to think. Your views are Naice.

Atlas Swallowed

5th January 2006, 00:23

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/archives...eli_spying.html (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/archives/cat_israeli_spying.html)

Here are some links on Israeli spying from various sources. As for your arguement about Israels founding not being religious. Why are they not in Morroco then? Just because some right wing idiots use information to justify thier ridiculous hatred of Jews and some bullshit global conspiracy(which I wrote about in my last post, low comprehesion skills?). Does not mean all information is untrue. Unlike Stormfront and the Zionists I believe in racial equality.

Unlike you I look at many sources of information, use common logic and think for myself. Racism and oppression should not be supported and resisted regardless of who is perpatrating it. If you have such a low opinion of online resistance, why the fuck are you here wasting my time parroting the mainstream media?

Johnny Serrure

5th January 2006, 05:10

They are not in Morrocco because Zionists feel Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people. They supported there position with textual and archeological evidence *as did the Palestinian Arabs.* To they feel like they were kicked out of the house years ago, only to find those who had stayed in their stead now felt they owned the place. The Guy before was right, It all breaks down to whether or not you believe in the right of a Jewish homeland in the reigion of Palestine.

Here's some online Info on Chinese spying: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2...26/195051.shtml (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/3/26/195051.shtml)

That is a crazy right-wing page who likes to pretend to be unbiased news. Anyone can write anything. To be Honest I don't doubt Israel is spying on us because the way I see it everyone is spying on everyone they have the means to be spying on. It's the nature of the beast.

From the recent comment of W's administration, I'd bet the #1 Perpetratot of Spying on the U.S. is the U.S.

Atlas Swallowed

5th January 2006, 18:27

Its not right wing and if you want crazy and right wing go to News Max :rolleyes: Besides it is just links to different sources. No it breaks down do you support a racist state run by Jewish Supremicists that is actively committing attrocities on the people whose land they have stolen.

BuyOurEverything

11th January 2006, 07:21

Zionism is a religious ideology based on the belief that the land of Israel was promised to the Jews by god, there is a type of labor zionist movement, but I would hardly call it "socailist".

It pisses me off that people believe this because it is such a blatant historical falacy. The original Zionist movement was secular, and while it was not itself strictly socialist, it included many and was supported by many. It was the necessity of gaininig a massive ammount of defense for very cheap that required them to become dependant on the US, and thus turn very right wing. Fuck, the CIA probably paid agitators and politicians in the surrounding countries to attack Israel, soley to make Israel dependant on US aid.

Nonetheless, the original Zionist movement went against the bible and was thus rejected by most orthodox Jews. They simply wanted a homeland for the Jews because they felt that Europe was not really working out so well. They probably just picked Israel because they figured that would be the most likely place to get.

LA GUERRA OLVIDADA

11th January 2006, 07:47

Look at you worthless fucks. Uhuhuhuh religion sux jews are socialists man palestine isn't as good.

You guys sound like a bunch of fucking nazis. Keep the Protestant genocidal Jew bullshit off this forum. I can watch Cable news for that shit. This forum is for leftists.

boosh logic

11th January 2006, 15:52

I was just trying to find out more information about the politics of the situation - and look - its the politics thread, how convenient!

If you don't like the thread then why did you post? It had been dead for like 3 days so don't post if you want it to go

BuyOurEverything

11th January 2006, 21:48

Look at you worthless fucks. Uhuhuhuh religion sux jews are socialists man palestine isn't as good.

Sorry, I don't speak bullshit, could you repeat that in English please?

You guys sound like a bunch of fucking nazis. Keep the Protestant genocidal Jew bullshit off this forum. I can watch Cable news for that shit. This forum is for leftists.

Again, what?

Quzmar

11th January 2006, 23:09

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 07:32 AM

Zionism is a religious ideology based on the belief that the land of Israel was promised to the Jews by god, there is a type of labor zionist movement, but I would hardly call it "socailist".

It pisses me off that people believe this because it is such a blatant historical falacy. The original Zionist movement was secular, and while it was not itself strictly socialist, it included many and was supported by many. It was the necessity of gaininig a massive ammount of defense for very cheap that required them to become dependant on the US, and thus turn very right wing. Fuck, the CIA probably paid agitators and politicians in the surrounding countries to attack Israel, soley to make Israel dependant on US aid.

Nonetheless, the original Zionist movement went against the bible and was thus rejected by most orthodox Jews. They simply wanted a homeland for the Jews because they felt that Europe was not really working out so well. They probably just picked Israel because they figured that would be the most likely place to get.
hello here is my viewpoint,

Well, the state of Israel was created on the Zionist project which wanted to create a home land for Jews and Jews only a homeland where any Jew in the world can flee to if needed and they are trying to collect as many Jews as they can, the reason is they believe that Jews can’t live with none-Jews coz they believe sooner or later the none-Jews will start killing the Jews, these ideas emerged as a result of the anti-Semitism (I hate to use this term is there a substitute so one help me please) in EUROPE! Not in the Middle East, anti-Semitism is pure EUROPEAN product as Jews lived in the Middle East all the time and some still do even within Palestinian like in Nablus (Palestinian Jews with no problem, in fact the problems started with creation of Israel in the shape of 1. the Zionist terror groups terrorizing Arab Jews by attacking the towns and villages so the immigrate to Israel. 2. Simply the backlash of the creation of Israel (but no were near creating camps like the Americans did with Japanese-Americans during the 2nd WW) 3. The Zionist movement paying money to some Arab governments for every Jew that migrates to Israel.
Oh I forgot to say that Jews consider the golden times of their history under the Islamic ruling in turkey and the Islamic ruling in Spain! And Jews saw the middle east as a safe place to go to when they were having a hard time in EUROPE much earlier in the history talking about 12th century and onwards!

As the anti-Semitism grow in EUROPE Jews stared to migrated to Palestine and other places about 1880s, they were welcomed by Palestinians regardless of there religion Moslems Christians and the Jews who were already there, and until 1910s years after the first Zionist conference(which also had Argentina as a potential homeland) in 1898 (or 1897 I’m not exactly sure) most of Jews who came to Palestine came live like normal Palestinians and had no problems on the opposite they were overwhelmed by the generosity of the Palestinian people! It was in the 1920s when Jews started to migrate to Palestinian in large numbers hoping to be able to build a Jewish state, so they stared living in separate towns build arms, covert tractors into tanks, and creating the Zionist terrorist groups which soon started to attack the Arabs, if fact it was them who came up with idea of blowing up busy markets.

By that time the Palestinian resistance was getting stronger and stronger against the British Mandate of Palestine, which started after the 1st WW, and was helping the Zionist movement, by allowing the Jewish refugees to inter Palestine in large numbers, and providing them with weapons, at the same time that ordinary Palestinian was sentenced to death for owning a personal gun, the Jewish movement able to build very organized terror groups, and quickly the started the ethnic cleansing against the Palestinian people coz the simply wanted a land without people for people without land, and didn’t care what happens to the original people of Palestine, the Palestinians resisted as much as they could but that was not enough, (I could spend hrs on this period of time) this (Zionist terror groups forcing Palestinians out of their land) went of till about 1954, thinking about it now in a way it never stopped till now it only took a different shape after the creation of the Zionist state!. The British finished their mission (making sure that the Zionists are able to kick the shit out of the Palestinians) so they withdrew, and handed over to the Zionists! As a result more than 700,000 Palestinian were forced out of Palestinian, many more were forced out of their land but moved somewhere else within the borders of Palestine, most of all ended up in the west bank and Gaza which were not occupied yet!

The Palestinian revolution started from the out side, Jordan then Lebanon, and it was largely leftist, even Fateh was very close to the left for most of the time starting from 1965 and until the 2nd half of the 80s when they started to drift to the to the centre or right of the centre some would say! Of course I don’t have to talk about the PFLP and the DFLP and all the rest they all were Marxist and still are! The PFLP was as big as Feateh for most of the time again until the 2nd half of the 80s or even later maybe 1990/1991 when they received massive hits (when I join I was hoping we will discussing they situation of the Palestinian left and solutions for the Palestinian issue but unfortunately I’m having to start form basics!) the left does still exist and it is much stronger than the media like to tell it is and by the media I mean all the media even most of the pro-Palestinian media! Simply you only make the headline if you kill Israeli civilians, coz the Israelis don’t want any other type of news to come out! They only want people in the world to think that Palestinians are a bunch of murderers who are only interested in murdering civilians, which is simply not true, Palestinians live a daily struggle against the Imperialist occupation, and the Palestinians resist the occupation in the most civilized manned you just don’t do enough to know about it (don’t wait for the media to inform you coz they won’t) sometimes sending kids to school is resistance sometimes breathing resistance! And that’s the resistance that worries the Zionists most!

Soheran

12th January 2006, 02:43

Most of the relevant history has been reviewed by others already; I would merely like to note a few additional points.

The Labor Zionists were indeed a very strong faction in the Zionist movement, and the labor parties representing them dominated Israeli politics until the 1970s. Their socialism was from the start of a very limited sort. The socialist institutions they created in Palestine were Jew-only, and were focused more on dominating the land, legally and extralegally (more the former than the latter in the early years, that reversed later), than on a just redistribution of wealth and an end to capitalist exploitation. They were perfectly willing, for understandable reasons, to ignore the plight of the Palestinian peasantry and buy land from absentee landlords, who expelled the tenants and gave the land to the Zionists. This expulsion - perfectly "legal," in the language of the prevailing capitalist/feudal arrangement of property and power, but wholly unjust - is one of the roots of the early conflict between the immigrant Jews and the indigenous Arabs.

The Sephardic Jews immigrating to Israel were from the start neglected by the "socialist" Ashkenazi elite, and these trends have continued in the years since. Thus for decades "socialist" institutions like the Kibbutzim and Histadrut served as aspects of this institutional oppression. As left-wing Ashkenazi Kibbutzniks lived without private property and voted Communist, they were perfectly happy to exploit Sephardic labor. The reactionary tilt in Israeli and global politics since the 1970s has resulted in a rollback of such socialist institutions, and one of the reasons Begin was able to do it while enjoying the support of some of the most exploited portions of the Israeli Jewish population was precisely this inequity.

While there were most definitely left-nationalist elements in the Palestinian movement, the rhetoric has been proven in practice to be nonsense (like the rhetoric of Mubarak's party in Egypt), and the insistence of some factions on using terrorism to achieve reactionary radical nationalist goals has not only resulted in atrocities but has been counterproductive to both the cause of socialism and the cause of Palestinian national liberation.

ReD_ReBeL

12th January 2006, 03:01

I read on this thread some1 advocating for leftists critical support of the PLO, you want me to support an organisation which in its history has .....

*The 1970 Avivim school bus massacre by PLO members, killed nine children, three adults and crippled 19.

*In the late 1960s and early 1970s, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the second-largest PLO faction after al-Fatah, carried out a number of attacks and plane hijackings mostly directed at Israel, most infamously the Dawson's Field hijackings, which precipitated the Black September in Jordan crisis.

*The Munich massacre of Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympics was carried out by the Black September group, which was allegedly affiliated with the PLO. This group also hijacked a plane flying from Belgium to Tel Aviv.

*In 1974 members of Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine carried out the Kiryat Shmona massacre at an apartment building in Israel, killing 18 people, 9 of whom were children.

*In 1974 members of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP), another faction affiliated with the PLO, seized a school in Israel and killed a total of 26 students and adults and wounded over 70 in the Ma'alot massacre.

LA GUERRA OLVIDADA

12th January 2006, 03:09

Wow, clearly mass-murderers..

ReD_ReBeL

12th January 2006, 03:11

Wow, clearly mass-murderers..

Was that Sarcasm?

LA GUERRA OLVIDADA

12th January 2006, 04:33

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 03:22 AM

Wow, clearly mass-murderers..

Was that Sarcasm?
Yes.

Quzmar

12th January 2006, 15:16

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 03:12 AM
I read on this thread some1 advocating for leftists critical support of the PLO, you want me to support an organisation which in its history has .....

*The 1970 Avivim school bus massacre by PLO members, killed nine children, three adults and crippled 19.

*In the late 1960s and early 1970s, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the second-largest PLO faction after al-Fatah, carried out a number of attacks and plane hijackings mostly directed at Israel, most infamously the Dawson's Field hijackings, which precipitated the Black September in Jordan crisis.

*The Munich massacre of Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympics was carried out by the Black September group, which was allegedly affiliated with the PLO. This group also hijacked a plane flying from Belgium to Tel Aviv.

*In 1974 members of Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine carried out the Kiryat Shmona massacre at an apartment building in Israel, killing 18 people, 9 of whom were children.

*In 1974 members of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP), another faction affiliated with the PLO, seized a school in Israel and killed a total of 26 students and adults and wounded over 70 in the Ma'alot massacre.
Stop spreading your anti-Palestinian propaganda!
I could list all the attacks done Israel and it’s a million times as much!
But no the Zionists are the aliens in Palestine, as I have proved jewish people were living in Palestine in peace before and could have carried on live in peace and country would have taken more in! But the Zionists had other ideas they want to kick every body out, 7 million Palestinian refugees are in the surrounding countries living in camps waiting for that day to come back, and the ones who are in Palestine have been living in hell for the last 58 years if not more!
Go on Mr Leftist what is your solution to the problem.
What! the refugees should forget about it and get on with life hah? Well y do they have to pay for somebody else’s comfort? Would what you would call labour Zionists accept one country with every one having the same rights? NO coz your labour Zionists are pretensions leftists who thinks that none-jews are a lower class of humans!!!
I don’t agree to targeting civilians under any circumstances! So I oppose most of the attacks you mentioned, but may I ask you to suggest the way of struggle for the Palestinian people so they get their rights back!
And one last question all the attacks you mentioned were taken out of context! So can I ask you what made the PLO these Commit “crimes” if you wish? I have explained how did the Zionist movement managed to convert the victims of vicious life in EUROPE into an army of mass-murderers! So it’s you turn

jaycee

12th January 2006, 16:22

does anyone take an intenationalist view of this conflict? i.e not supporting either the israeli capitalists gangsters or the palestinian capitalist gangstars, the only solution to the conflict is unified struggle of the working class in both countries against their oppressors.

another point i would like to make is that the zionist movement although having some very radical and left wing tendencies in the beginning was always bourgeois and the zionists during the holocaust actually refused to do anything to stop the killing as they saw it as a good way to further their intersests of a jewish state.

Intifada

12th January 2006, 16:37

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 04:33 PM
the only solution to the conflict is unified struggle of the working class in both countries against their oppressors.
I support such action, but at this moment in time, and in the near future, it is not likely to happen. This does not mean that I will stop advocating such action, but it does mean that I will wholeheartedly back the struggle of the oppressed Palestinian people in their struggle against Zionist aggression.

ReD_ReBeL

12th January 2006, 16:42

Stop spreading your anti-Palestinian propaganda!

Your taking me way out of context, i was simply giving you reasons for me not liking the PLO, in no way was it anti-palestinian. there are many more groups than the PLO you know.

I could list all the attacks done Israel and it’s a million times as much!

good for you, im anti-all sorts of violence towards innocents , because the Isrealies do that sort of stuff doesnt mean you have to stoop down to there level of ignorance.

Go on Mr Leftist what is your solution to the problem

WEll they could take a sort of Chinese Revolution stance and unify the people of palestine and target that actualy opressers i.e GOvernment, MIlitary.

[QUOTE]What! the refugees should forget about it and get on with life hah?[QUOTE]

Nope they could unite eachother , educate the people what there people are facing , work together and bring an end to the occupation, by peaceful means or arms means doesnt matter just dont attack innocents!. There is no excuse for the murder of innocent working people. killing children is very cowardly as it is with every innocent. As Che Guevara once said "Terrorism Is For Cowards"

Quzmar

12th January 2006, 22:24

Your taking me way out of context, i was simply giving you reasons for me not liking the PLO, in no way was it anti-palestinian. there are many more groups than the PLO you know.

Sorry if have misunderstood you.

good for you, im anti-all sorts of violence towards innocents , because the Isrealies do that sort of stuff doesnt mean you have to stoop down to there level of ignorance.

that’s my position also!
but you have to remember that the Palestinian resistance is much more than attacking civilians, actually the attacks that target civilians are a very low percentage of total attacks done by the Palestinian resistance and even the Israelis admit to that! So please don’t fall into the trap of the media, every one!

I think we should be talking about the left’s situation in Palestine the difficulties that face them and ways to help them!

i will brife you on the situation starting from the first intefada till now soon

Soheran

13th January 2006, 01:32

does anyone take an intenationalist view of this conflict? i.e not supporting either the israeli capitalists gangsters or the palestinian capitalist gangstars, the only solution to the conflict is unified struggle of the working class in both countries against their oppressors.

I more or less take that position. I do not know if it is the "only" solution but it is the one I prefer. In the mean time, considering that this is a world where neither Israel nor Palestine is going to go socialist any time soon, efforts to achieve a just solution by mutual agreement should be supported.

another point i would like to make is that the zionist movement although having some very radical and left wing tendencies in the beginning was always bourgeois

The Zionist leadership was always bourgeois, as was and is the case in most political movements.

jaycee

14th January 2006, 10:22

well i don't think you can make such a distiction between its leadership and some of its more left wing currents becuase i judge an organisation on what class it represents overall and that is clearly inthis case the capitlaist class. Zionism was always a nationalist ideology even when it used radical language ( which many people did truly beleive in) and that means that it was bourgeois because nationalism is bourgeios by nature.

il Commie

14th January 2006, 13:28

voiceofthevoiceless,

I recommend you to read this document:
http://www.gush-shalom.org/Docs/Truth_Eng.pdf
"Truth Against Truth" by Uri Avnery (a very known peace activist)

The Grey Blur

14th January 2006, 20:41

They simply wanted a homeland for the Jews because they felt that Europe was not really working out so well.
:lol: This sounds like something that should be on Uncyclopedia

They probably just picked Israel because they figured that would be the most likely place to get.
Well that makes everyything okay...

Soheran

14th January 2006, 21:01

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 10:38 AM
well i don't think you can make such a distiction between its leadership and some of its more left wing currents becuase i judge an organisation on what class it represents overall and that is clearly inthis case the capitlaist class. Zionism was always a nationalist ideology even when it used radical language ( which many people did truly beleive in) and that means that it was bourgeois because nationalism is bourgeios by nature.

Nationalism is not "bourgeois by nature." Vietnamese nationalism was not bourgeois, for instance. In the European Jewish case the anti-Semitism and oppression was universal, and to a great degree so was the response.

I did not mean to imply that its left-wing currents were somehow divorced from the bourgeois leadership; the bourgeois leadership was also the leadership of the left-wing Labor Zionists, who dominated politics for decades. The military leadership came from the same group. I am not arguing and would never argue that the ideology of the Labor Zionists means that the Zionist movement should be backed; the socialism was a racist, colonial socialism, like that of those socialists who apologized for British imperialism in the first half of the twentieth century, and is not exactly something to be imitated.

BuyOurEverything

14th January 2006, 21:04

This sounds like something that should be on Uncyclopedia

If you have a problem with what I said, refute it. Was there another reason for Zionism, other than to create a homeland for Jews?

Well that makes everyything okay...

You missed my point entirely. I was refuting sombody's comment who said that Zionism was originally a religious ideology which stated god had given Israel to the Jews. In fact, originally Zionism was a secular ideology and in fact went against the bible. I said that they picked Israel for their land, not because 'god told them to' but because (and I'm just speculating here) they thought it would be the easiest country to get, for a variety of reasons.

JC1

15th January 2006, 00:07

Zionism, at one time, was a proggressive ideaology. The Zionist's in the in Palistine pre-1948 were the only force beside's a few arab democrat's fighting british imperialism in palistine. There was NO alliance betweemn the zionist mov't and the brirtish goverment (The British Gov't actualy resinded the Belfour Concesion when the second world war broke out).

Zionism, indeed, was a progressive anti-imperialist ideaology untill the 1967 war. Up untill then, the Arab-Isreali conflict was a war between Arab comprador regimes, backed up mainly by Britian, and the Jewish Nation. After 1967, the Israeli state was comandereed by US Capital, and the conflict was transformed into a Inter-imperialist conflict between the Israeli comprador's backed by US Capital and European backed Arab comprador's.

Atlas Swallowed

15th January 2006, 06:14

"We must expropriate gently the private property on the state assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriationand the removal of the poor must be carried out discretly and circumspectly. Let the owners of immovable propertybelieve they are cheating us, selling us things for more than they are worth. But we are not going to sell them anything back."

Theodor Herzl 1896
founder of Zionism

Zionism never was progressive and could never possibly be. Keep reading Zionist propaganda, they are all angels looking for the betterment of the human race, don't worry they will tell you :rolleyes: Just because someone hands you a plate of shit does not mean you have to eat it.

Zionism is a racisist and CAPITALIST movement. How stealing someones land for yourselves and systamatically removing the poor and working class progressive? Oh yeah its a secular movment because thier propaganda says it is. Why is Israel not in Morrocco or Uganda then? Not that it matters anyway, it would just be a different people they would be cheating and murdering.

JC1

15th January 2006, 17:29

Zionism never was progressive and could never possibly be. Keep reading Zionist propaganda, they are all angels looking for the betterment of the human race, don't worry they will tell you Just because someone hands you a plate of shit does not mean you have to eat it.

Once again, who in Palistine was fighting the landlord's and there british master's beside's the zionist's ?

Just becuase Herzl said terrible thing's does not negate the fact Zionism was hitoricaly proggressive.

Why is Israel not in Morrocco or Uganda then?

Becuase palistine was the only land they could get.

Quzmar

15th January 2006, 19:24

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 05:45 PM

Zionism never was progressive and could never possibly be. Keep reading Zionist propaganda, they are all angels looking for the betterment of the human race, don't worry they will tell you Just because someone hands you a plate of shit does not mean you have to eat it.

Once again, who in Palistine was fighting the landlord's and there british master's beside's the zionist's ?

Just becuase Herzl said terrible thing's does not negate the fact Zionism was hitoricaly proggressive.

Why is Israel not in Morrocco or Uganda then?

Becuase palistine was the only land they could get.
I really hope you are not being serious! How do you define progressive? Is fighting the landlords and the British masters enough to be progressive in your eyes! Hasma are fighting the capitalist in Palestine both Palestinian and Israeli but they are no way progressive do you not think!

Yes the Zionist did fight the landlords for one reason: they wanted the land, and they were willing to do anything to get it! They used all kinds of fraud and terror! From hiring Arab agents to sell buy the land to killing some of the landlords cutting their hands off and using their thumbs to do all the necessary papers to change the ownership and claiming it was do before!

No they didn’t fight the British masters! Only small fractions did coz they thought they were strong enough and the British should leave so they could get on with killing the Arabs and forcing them out of there land!

And it’s not what Herzl said it’s the whole Zionist ideology that is disturbing!