Point for pro-war...

[Rebelde para Siempre]

If the US is after Iraq's oil reserves, then why didnt the US take them and take out Saddam in the first Gulf War?

[sc4r]

The idea that the US government wishes to ensure that the corporations for whom america is run should benefit from Iraqi oil should not be confused with a simplistic land grab and expropriation.

I doubt that america will declare that Iraqi oil is now owned by america :-)

But the terms under which it is sold, who to, and at what price have major implications for these corporations. By putting in place a regime which can be relied upon to act in accordance with the wishes and interests of these corporations they get what they want.

There are at least 2 explanations of why they did not attempt regime change of this nature in 91.

Firstly the 91 action was a genuine multi national initiative; it would have been exceedingly difficult to ensure that a specifically US friendly regime actually was installed.

Secondly the nature of oil prices and availability meant that they could actually benefit from restricted availability of Iraw oil at that time. Times have changed and the economics are now different.

Any assessment of the situation has to recognise that these corporations are not the ones actually paying for the invasion. At first sight it seems grossly non cost effective and short sighted to take a short term benefit and not recognise that eventually you may desire a different arrangement; but once you appreciate that these people not only do not pay the cost but actually benefit directly from weapons sales the economics of the situation become entirely different.

Do not confuse the motivations of the american people with those of the corporations. The american people are almost certianly not thinking of oil benefits; but they are informed (and misled) by propaganda put out by the corporations acting through the american administration.

Even the administration itself is probably not motivated entirely by oil interests. GWB has effectively tied his political future to this invasion, for him a succesful war is actually a motivation in itself (although he probably has other motivations too).

Incidentally dont think that just because the American position is motivated by Oil that Russian and French positions are not. Their stances are also affected by what they hope to gain.

[Sinistra]

Well , don't you think that it is absured ( to all of you that think that the US is only after the oil ) that bush wants to control the oil in Iraq , you forgot that bush , as a business man , has a big interest that th US will NOT import any oil , because he has his own oil in texas . and he would like the US to buy from texas , and not from Iraq .

[sc4r]

not really. Control implies exactly that he can choose not to sell it if he wants, or more realistically can influence the price.

But it really is not even that simple because Bush and his partners do not merely own oil interests in Texas they own many other things besides.

Even if this were not so you should recognise that all wealthy capitalist have an interest not merely in ensuring that they get the greater share of what wealth is available (which is what he achieves by seeling at a high price) but also in ensuring that as much as possible is available. This latter objective depends upon the continued availability of Oil to fuel production.

As an extra motivation even the stability of their position depends upon continued high production. Americans buy into capitalism very readily precisely because they themselves see so much material wealth being produced and made available to them. If this dries up the myth will rapidly become exposed and support for the system they have created will be much less easily come by.

(Edited by sc4r at 2:17 pm on Feb. 28, 2003)

[Invader Zim]

I agree the USA is blatently in it for oil, but surely you can see their is a moral justificaion for war.

[sc4r]

I can see there is plenty of moral justification for deposing Sadam.

I'll be honest and say that I cannot see that this justification has anything very much to do with the threat he poses to the west.

I think howver, that war is not something which only needs to be morally justified. It also needs to be practically justified (i.e. that the game is worth the candle). With UN sanction I am sufficiently unconvinced either way that I would not express an opinion. Without it to me the potential negatives outweigh the potential benefits very heavily.

Its a sad fact of life that we cannot pursue all of our moral convictions without balancing the practical consequences because to do so is to ignore other less self evident moralities.

Just my opinion mind.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Just a thought I just had....

In the first gulf war the US government didn't had any permission to conquer Iraq and I am sure that many Americans would have feared their own lives "just to protect the Kuwaiti towelheads", and protets against the war would have followed.

Because a war ment to conquer Iraq would have to mean full scale war. It's not like Bosnie where you could sent just a few thousands to. This is much bigger and much more resistance would encounter US troops.

That would mean much more costs and lives on the US side.

And in those days the Iraqi army was something. It wasn't something that could win a war with the US, but they certainly had to be catious.

That could explain the 12 year long bombing of Iraq, it could be ment to weaken them, just to move in for the kill later on.

[Spiteful]

Saddam would most likely burn his oil fields(which he has done) when he realizes that the end is near.

[Blibblob]

Yes he will, and that is the main reason why I am against this war... Damn me right, just a stupid enviromentalist...

[CheViveToday]

As the Gulf War neared a quick end, many Middle Eastern Countries and other U.S. Allies assured the U.S. that in post-war Iraq, Saddam would be overthrown almost immediately. This caused the U.S. to back down. They probably were planning to move in after the oil [probably by setting up a puppet government], after the suspected coup. However, this of course did not happen. George W. Bush wants to accomplish what his father didn't, by sending Saddam packing, and finally siezing all that oil.

[MJM]

To say the war is for oil is simplistic and really falls into the hands of the capitalists to some degree.
The US (and world) economy prior to 911, and still now, is not in a very good state. Fraud and white collar crime on a level never seen before is everywhere.
The basis for the whole US economy/society was undermined by the actions of some of the biggest companies in US history.
Not forgeting in order to make money labour must now be sourced from 3rd world countries, so unemployment is growing everywhere.

Time for revolution, or reform on some degree, was just around the corner.
Imperialist war is the opposite of civil war so when the natives get restless the army goes off to fight somewhere, externalise the problem and blame someone else. Inevitably the war will boost local moral and nationalism - the workers will be willing to sacrafice themselves for the good of the nation.

Before 911 Bush was getting caned in the public eye for the collapsing economy the democrat fools were nah nah nah nah nahing.
Now he's the most loved leader of all time. He won a major victory in the recent elections, he's on top of his game. The revolting masses are nowhere to be seen. New legislation is passed without the bat of an eyelid.


Which brings us back to 911, who did it?

[CheViveToday]

His [Bush] approval rating [by Americans] has fallen below 50% now. I seriously doubt he'll be elected in '04. However, I understand your point and agree with what you were saying.

[canikickit]

His rating will go back up when they win the war. Ticker tape parades and beer sponsered celebrations.

[Eastside Revolt]

RED RAGE,

Are you starving? Are your people being attacked?
If not then either infiltrate the army and spread propoganda or just don't do it. Who cares if it's a "just another job", personally I feel guilty enough just working for my local supermarket chain. If you join tha army your acting as a strongarm for the very people who hold communism down.

[Eastside Revolt]

I sent this to the wrong thread somehow.