It aint going to start itself

[AK47]

It just will not start itself. Just waiting for the "Revolution" will not do anybody any good. These things will not just turn on one day. Revolutions do not simply happen. A cause has to have a purpose. A purpose has to have a reason. A reason has to have validity. Sitting around waiting and *****ing will just lead to more sitting around and *****ing. The revolution will only occur when a valid movement is resisted by the ruling elite. People are going to have to get hurt. We must not fire the first shot. We have to fire the last, but a national/international cause to give legitimate power to the people that would obstruct the Neo-Con corporate/fundamentalist Christian global crusade for world power needs to happen so the "Revolution" can be pushed into play. As of now, all is in check. Left wing thinkers need to back tough anti lobbyist litigation, and insist such measures are essential for a real democracy (Not too much of a stretch). The current political system will not allow any real change in the level of corporate pull in litigation. Once no real change occurs, then more radical, and extreme measures will have more validity in the general public.

Write your congress. Tell them to support restrictions on lobbyist influence. Get people you know (Left, right, or center) to do the same. Start collecting signatures, or signing your name to people doing the same (Make sure they are real, NO John Doe, Mickey Mouse, Amanda Huginkis.ect.) This is doomed to fail. No real change can take place while corporate power has its tentacles in congress. This is when it becomes open season on K. Street. This is when a few rounds can be found in the chassis of corporate limos as they rush past on the highways in fear of the resistance to their incompetent rule. This is when the cry against corporate rule can be yelled at anti-Bush, anti capitalist, anti corporate feudal state, pro democracy rallies. This is when those who want a true communist state can claim if you are not against us you are with us.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Sitting around waiting and *****ing will just lead to more sitting around and *****ing. The revolution will only occur when a valid movement is resisted by the ruling elite.

if thats so, how do you explain the sentence below?



Write your congress. Tell them to support restrictions on lobbyist influence.

the task above is not revolutionary. it still clings to the idea that congressmen can actually be "on our side".


Left wing thinkers need to back tough anti lobbyist litigation, and insist such measures are essential for a real democracy (Not too much of a stretch).

no real leftists need to promote destruction of the bourgeoi state and create democracy. you cant reform the system.


The current political system will not allow any real change in the level of corporate pull in litigation.

then why do you insist on writing congressmen? that makes no sense


Start collecting signatures, or signing your name to people doing the same (Make sure they are real, NO John Doe, Mickey Mouse, Amanda Huginkis.ect.) This is doomed to fail. No real change can take place while corporate power has its tentacles in congress.

this is called revolutionarleft.com for a reason. most people on her dont believe participating in the governemnt will get any change.

[Paradox]

No real change can take place while corporate power has its tentacles in congress.

:lol:

No real change can take place as long as people look to congress for help.


This is when those who want a true communist state can claim if you are not against us you are with us.

Quit it with the oxymorons. No such thing as a "communist state."


This is when a few rounds can be found in the chassis of corporate limos as they rush past on the highways in fear of the resistance to their incompetent rule.

Dude, check what nate wrote to see the problem with this.

Yeah, let's write our congress members and simultaneously (thereby mixing unrevolutionary reformist bullshit with guerrilla style war) shoot corporate limos. That'll create change. :rolleyes:

[OkaCrisis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 05:36 PM
most people on her dont believe participating in the governemnt will get any change.


Although that's true, I think it's misguided.

Short of the Revolution, what else can we do to try to incite change in the world? I think participation in politics (voting, joining/creating/supporting parties) is the only realistic way right now to try to change anything (at least in Canada).

If, through participation in a party, you can enact legislature or policy that is good for the people NOW (in all this "waiting time" before the Revolution), then isn't that better than sitting around at home *****ing about the government?

Wouldn't it be better if all of us left-minded people participated more actively (or, at all) in the established political system?

The best form of dissent under a capitalist system is opposition through established parties (yes! Parties that are a product of that very system!). Try to build a following. Maybe see what happens. Honestly, what else can we do?

Demonstrate? Buy local, sweatshop-free organics? Ride bicycles? That's all well and good on an individual level, but what good does it do if all of your neighbours drive SUVs and live at Wal Mart? Through participation in electoral politics, you CAN be involved in promoting policy that WILL change the way people drive/buy/live... (Gas taxes, road tolls, corporate taxes, support for small-businesses, etc!)

All you have to do is get people to vote for you, and then maybe you will change the world, even just a little.

I won't wait forever for the Revolution. When it gets here, I'll be front-line. Until then, though, a little political participation won't hurt anybody. And it may even help some.

[Paradox]

If, through participation in a party, you can enact legislature or policy that is good for the people NOW (in all this "waiting time" before the Revolution), then isn't that better than sitting around at home *****ing about the government?

I think THAT is misguided.

It's one thing to push certain reforms that may be of some help to working class people, it's an entirely different thing to support political parties.


The best form of dissent under a capitalist system is opposition through established parties (yes! Parties that are a product of that very system!). Try to build a following. Maybe see what happens.

See the CPUSA about this. They support the democrats. :rolleyes:


All you have to do is get people to vote for you, and then maybe you will change the world, even just a little.

Fuck this reformist and vanguardist approach. Too much idealism.


Honestly, what else can we do?

Educate, educate, educate.

Reforms here and there? Fine.

Reformism? Pointless bullshit.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 08:03 PM
It just will not start itself. Just waiting for the "Revolution" will not do anybody any good.
Good job im not just sitting around waiting then isn't it.


These things will not just turn on one day. Revolutions do not simply happen. A cause has to have a purpose. A purpose has to have a reason. A reason has to have validity. Sitting around waiting and *****ing will just lead to more sitting around and *****ing.

Again, your presuming that we are not politically active. Which is simply not true, im very involved with political activism, as are many members on this forum. Are you?

The revolution will only occur when a valid movement is resisted by the ruling elite.

Sense, make it.


People are going to have to get hurt. We must not fire the first shot.

People are getting hurt, by capitalism. Why shouldn't we fire the first shot? hasn't the first shot already been fired?


We have to fire the last, but a national/international cause to give legitimate power to the people that would obstruct the Neo-Con corporate/fundamentalist Christian global crusade for world power needs to happen so the "Revolution" can be pushed into play. As of now, all is in check.

No we don't "have" to do anything we're told to do. Another thing, surely a revolution would destroy the elite, not obstruct it?


Left wing thinkers need to back tough anti lobbyist litigation, and insist such measures are essential for a real democracy (Not too much of a stretch).


Didn't you just point out that the revolution will be violent? If the ruling class wont give up there power with force, what makes you think they'll give it up peacefully?


The current political system will not allow any real change in the level of corporate pull in litigation. Once no real change occurs, then more radical, and extreme measures will have more validity in the general public.

Just skip to the radical, no point going through something that wont work, just to establish that it wont work.



Write your congress. Tell them to support restrictions on lobbyist influence.

Im not going to waste the ink. They're read it and throw it away. Really, I know groups who have spend the best part of a decade spaming the in-box of our local MP to try and achieve something to do with climate change. Know what happened? Jack shit


Get people you know (Left, right, or center) to do the same. Start collecting signatures, or signing your name to people doing the same (Make sure they are real, NO John Doe, Mickey Mouse, Amanda Huginkis.ect.) This is doomed to fail.

Yes, yes it is doomed to fail.


No real change can take place

So why are you demanding we do something that wont work?


while corporate power has its tentacles in congress.

Yes, but even if there were no 'corporations' and simply a government, we would need to abolish that aswell.


This is when it becomes open season on K. Street. This is when a few rounds can be found in the chassis of corporate limos as they rush past on the highways in fear of the resistance to their incompetent rule.

Because you wrote to them along with a few friends from school?


This is when the cry against corporate rule can be yelled at anti-Bush, anti capitalist, anti corporate feudal state, pro democracy rallies. This is when those who want a true communist state can claim if you are not against us you are with us.

Shame though, people that want a communist state must be very confused people, communism is stateless. It's like wanting a square circle.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 09:03 PM
We must not fire the first shot.
If you believe that, why the heck do you say we "shouldn't be waiting for the Revolution" ?
As for me (and I believe many others on this forum) , I'm not sitting around and waiting. I'm participating. I'm out there. I try my best. And when I turn 18, I hope I'll be able to do even more. I find your post rather useless.

*As Paradox pointed out before me: Communist state what? :huh:

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 05:08 PM
I'm not sitting around and waiting. I'm participating. I'm out there. I try my best.
Every month or so we go through this, having to explain that we are politically active, and we are out there trying to start a revolution...

Why does everyone think we just sit here and post all day? Most of the time, and I don't mean this as an offence, it is because they are the ones who are politically inactive, and have this perception that we all are to. That said, it's really good to hear people motivated and trying, but a lot of the suggestions are very far fetched or impractical, like earlier in the year when it was suggested we all buy guns and go to New Orleans. :lol:

Oh well,

[Guest]

dear misguided leftist fools. your revolution will not happen. my patriotic American friends have more guns, experience, and means to stop your pathetic revolution than you can imagine. Your ill-prepared and inexperienced. We have military experience, we are cops, we are everything you hate.

Half of you are under 18 college kids, the other half are terrorist sympatizers and homely looking activists.

You talk about not firing the first shot, well you have no choice, because we like this country and our way of life and we are not going to start a war to jeopardize it. Good luck in your revolution, it wont last a week.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 05:56 PM
dear misguided leftist fools. your revolution will not happen. my patriotic American friends have more guns, experience, and means to stop your pathetic revolution than you can imagine. Your ill-prepared and inexperienced. We have military experience, we are cops, we are everything you hate.

Half of you are under 18 college kids, the other half are terrorist sympatizers and homely looking activists.

You talk about not firing the first shot, well you have no choice, because we like this country and our way of life and we are not going to start a war to jeopardize it. Good luck in your revolution, it wont last a week.
You wouldn't know, you would have your back to the wall praying to a God that doesn't exist that you get a .13 cent bullet in the back of the head quickly and painlessly. :lol:

This is of course theoretical, because doing any of this in real life would be *gasp*, ILLEGAL! And we would never advocate such behavior here!

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

Originally posted by Ownthink+Jan 1 2006, 12:14 AM--> (Ownthink @ Jan 1 2006, 12:14 AM)
[email protected] 31 2005, 05:56 PM
dear misguided leftist fools. your revolution will not happen. my patriotic American friends have more guns, experience, and means to stop your pathetic revolution than you can imagine. Your ill-prepared and inexperienced. We have military experience, we are cops, we are everything you hate.

Half of you are under 18 college kids, the other half are terrorist sympatizers and homely looking activists.

You talk about not firing the first shot, well you have no choice, because we like this country and our way of life and we are not going to start a war to jeopardize it. Good luck in your revolution, it wont last a week.
You wouldn't know, you would have your back to the wall praying to a God that doesn't exist that you get a .13 cent bullet in the back of the head quickly and painlessly. :lol:

This is of course theoretical, because doing any of this in real life would be *gasp*, ILLEGAL! And we would never advocate such behavior here! [/b]
God (hey hey, there he is again) no, we wouldn't dream of even trying to change your absolutely perfect country and way of life, where the weak get pushed back and the rich get all the power, were people can tell other people what to do, how to do it and when to do it without even feeling guilty. This almost utopian country which goes by the name of the US of A, where it's possible that someone is sunbathing by his golfcourse, enjoying a martini with some caviar toast and he doesn't have to worry about poor bums trying to invade his house, because he has his private security guards who will shoot down anyone who thinks he also has right to a certain amount of food. I mean, you're born rich, so no doubt you are worth much more than one of those filthy workers at the factory downtown? Who the hell do those low-class scumbags think they are? Is that what you think? Let me tell you this: When Fidel Castro and his troops crossed the sea to Cuba on a poorly repaired boat called the Granma, with barely 80 man, poorly prepared with practically no guns, Cuba under Batista was heavily supported by the country you so much idolize. Fidel and his troops wiped out you fuckers, and they've been in control of Cuba since, still very much supported by the Cuban population. When the US government sent in over a thousand Special Agents to take control of Cuba, they were stopped and captured by the Cuban forces. You also lost in Vietnam, you fucked up in Afghanistan, and your troops are being blown up every day in Iraq. You ain't worth shit, you're incompetent and your arrogancy has cost and will cost you many lives. So fuck off with your rightwinged bullshit. I'll have the pleasure of blowing a bullet to your brain (?) within a few years. So enjoy those last few years, eh? ;)
Kind regards,
comrade RedFaction

[Tyler Durden]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 10:56 PM
dear misguided leftist fools. your revolution will not happen. my patriotic American friends have more guns, experience, and means to stop your pathetic revolution than you can imagine. Your ill-prepared and inexperienced. We have military experience, we are cops, we are everything you hate.

Half of you are under 18 college kids, the other half are terrorist sympatizers and homely looking activists.

You talk about not firing the first shot, well you have no choice, because we like this country and our way of life and we are not going to start a war to jeopardize it. Good luck in your revolution, it wont last a week.
good word comrade RedFaction :che:

I think the unwelcome guest already has a bullet in his brain...

The fact that half of us are under 18 tells the story,
So young and already aware about the fucking capitalistic world.

BEWARE OF THE NEW GENERATION REVOLUTIONERYS!


Raise Ya Fist.

T.D

[Guest]

HAHA. Oh man, all this revolutionary talk must be getting you guys all ready for action huh? First off, let me introduce myself. I am a 21 year old student. I work in a non-union warehouse most of the year and I will be a police officer soon. I am by no means a wealthy individual.

And no one will have the oppurtunity to put a bullet in my brain. The only reason half of you know what a gun looks like is from pictures of your favorite communists executing innocent people.

[Goatse]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 07:08 PM
HAHA. Oh man, all this revolutionary talk must be getting you guys all ready for action huh? First off, let me introduce myself. I am a 21 year old student. I work in a non-union warehouse most of the year and I will be a police officer soon. I am by no means a wealthy individual.

And no one will have the oppurtunity to put a bullet in my brain. The only reason half of you know what a gun looks like is from pictures of your favorite communists executing innocent people.
Wow, he really got us there. :rolleyes:

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by RedFaction+Jan 1 2006, 08:24 AM--> (RedFaction @ Jan 1 2006, 08:24 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 12:14 AM

[email protected] 31 2005, 05:56 PM
dear misguided leftist fools. your revolution will not happen. my patriotic American friends have more guns, experience, and means to stop your pathetic revolution than you can imagine. Your ill-prepared and inexperienced. We have military experience, we are cops, we are everything you hate.

Half of you are under 18 college kids, the other half are terrorist sympatizers and homely looking activists.

You talk about not firing the first shot, well you have no choice, because we like this country and our way of life and we are not going to start a war to jeopardize it. Good luck in your revolution, it wont last a week.
You wouldn't know, you would have your back to the wall praying to a God that doesn't exist that you get a .13 cent bullet in the back of the head quickly and painlessly. :lol:

This is of course theoretical, because doing any of this in real life would be *gasp*, ILLEGAL! And we would never advocate such behavior here!
God (hey hey, there he is again) no, we wouldn't dream of even trying to change your absolutely perfect country and way of life, where the weak get pushed back and the rich get all the power, were people can tell other people what to do, how to do it and when to do it without even feeling guilty. This almost utopian country which goes by the name of the US of A, where it's possible that someone is sunbathing by his golfcourse, enjoying a martini with some caviar toast and he doesn't have to worry about poor bums trying to invade his house, because he has his private security guards who will shoot down anyone who thinks he also has right to a certain amount of food. I mean, you're born rich, so no doubt you are worth much more than one of those filthy workers at the factory downtown? Who the hell do those low-class scumbags think they are? Is that what you think? Let me tell you this: When Fidel Castro and his troops crossed the sea to Cuba on a poorly repaired boat called the Granma, with barely 80 man, poorly prepared with practically no guns, Cuba under Batista was heavily supported by the country you so much idolize. Fidel and his troops wiped out you fuckers, and they've been in control of Cuba since, still very much supported by the Cuban population. When the US government sent in over a thousand Special Agents to take control of Cuba, they were stopped and captured by the Cuban forces. You also lost in Vietnam, you fucked up in Afghanistan, and your troops are being blown up every day in Iraq. You ain't worth shit, you're incompetent and your arrogancy has cost and will cost you many lives. So fuck off with your rightwinged bullshit. I'll have the pleasure of blowing a bullet to your brain (?) within a few years. So enjoy those last few years, eh? ;)
Kind regards,
comrade RedFaction [/b]
That post made me laugh my ass off. Good form.

Not to mention it was right!

[which doctor]

Originally posted by ScottishPinko+Jan 1 2006, 02:21 PM--> (ScottishPinko @ Jan 1 2006, 02:21 PM)
[email protected] 1 2006, 07:08 PM
HAHA. Oh man, all this revolutionary talk must be getting you guys all ready for action huh? First off, let me introduce myself. I am a 21 year old student. I work in a non-union warehouse most of the year and I will be a police officer soon. I am by no means a wealthy individual.

And no one will have the oppurtunity to put a bullet in my brain. The only reason half of you know what a gun looks like is from pictures of your favorite communists executing innocent people.
Wow, he really got us there. :rolleyes: [/b]
It sucks that you have and will have a shitty job. Anyways, I've seen and handled guns up close. A true communist would never kill an innocent civilian.

[Global_Justice]

i think your all being a bit harsh on AK47, maybe his post didn't really say anything that hasn't been said before, but it did no harm and i agreed with the most part of what he said, apart from the "we must not fire the first bullet" bulshit, the first bullet has been fired!

about congress, we (in terms of our left wing extremism) are in the minority, and could certainly not start a revolution without a catalyst to ignite other left wingers who maybe don't want to resort to violence or aren't as extreme as us. i think he was trying to say that if 1000s of people wrote to there congress and were ignored, this would be the catalyst. which i don't think would work

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 07:08 PM
HAHA. Oh man, all this revolutionary talk must be getting you guys all ready for action huh?
Not really, im already involved in Revolutionary work here in the UK.


First off, let me introduce myself. I am a 21 year old student. I work in a non-union warehouse most of the year and I will be a police officer soon.

Irrelevant, I don't really want to know who you are.


I am by no means a wealthy individual.

Join the club


And no one will have the opportunity to put a bullet in my brain.

Well, if your a street cop, a lot of people will have that opportunity.


The only reason half of you know what a gun looks like is from pictures of your favorite communists executing innocent people.

That and, I've handled one. Oh and I don't have favourite 'communists' in terms of murdering innocent people I'd have to agree with you, Stalin, Mao, they were all murderous fuckwits, and im opposed to them as much as you, just for different reasons. Fortunately they were examples of my Marxism-Leninism wont work, not communism.

Im happy to discuss with you these matters buts it's really a topic for Opposing Ideologies, if you could post your critisisms there, it'd be great. But bare in mind that if you annoy me too much I'll just delete you from existence.

[DisIllusion]

Why do people badmouth as 'Guests'? If you're going to flame and cause trouble, at least have the balls to make an account.

Plus it makes it easier for us to restrict/ban you later on. :lol:

[Goatse]

Somehow, I don't think he's coming back.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 09:39 PM
i think your all being a bit harsh on AK47, maybe his post didn't really say anything that hasn't been said before, but it did no harm and i agreed with the most part of what he said, apart from the "we must not fire the first bullet" bulshit, the first bullet has been fired!

Fair enough. No one was trying to offend him, like I said his enthusiasms awesome I hope he gets involved soon!

[Iroquois Xavier]

Originally posted by RedFaction+Dec 31 2005, 05:10 PM--> (RedFaction @ Dec 31 2005, 05:10 PM)
[email protected] 30 2005, 09:03 PM
We must not fire the first shot.
If you believe that, why the heck do you say we "shouldn't be waiting for the Revolution" ?
As for me (and I believe many others on this forum) , I'm not sitting around and waiting. I'm participating. I'm out there. I try my best. And when I turn 18, I hope I'll be able to do even more. I find your post rather useless.

*As Paradox pointed out before me: Communist state what? :huh: [/b]
Listen up and listen good im willing to join any form of left wing revolution when im at the right age. I totally agree that we should fire first because if they attack us we might not be able to strike back. its all good sitting around moaning and complaining but that doesnt spark revolutions, Actions Speak Louder Than Words

[Iroquois Xavier]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 10:58 PM
dear misguided leftist fools. your revolution will not happen. my patriotic American friends have more guns, experience, and means to stop your pathetic revolution than you can imagine. Your ill-prepared and inexperienced. We have military experience, we are cops, we are everything you hate.

Half of you are under 18 college kids, the other half are terrorist sympatizers and homely looking activists.

You talk about not firing the first shot, well you have no choice, because we like this country and our way of life and we are not going to start a war to jeopardize it. Good luck in your revolution, it wont last a week.
Whoah tough guy! nice to see an imperialist pig sticking his snout in our business. go and become a police officer and get with all your police mates and screw each other (or has that already happened?) We'll see how tough you really are when the revolution comes! oh by the way thanks for posting your (pointless) views! :P

[Iroquois Xavier]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 07:10 PM
HAHA. Oh man, all this revolutionary talk must be getting you guys all ready for action huh? First off, let me introduce myself. I am a 21 year old student. I work in a non-union warehouse most of the year and I will be a police officer soon. I am by no means a wealthy individual.

And no one will have the oppurtunity to put a bullet in my brain. The only reason half of you know what a gun looks like is from pictures of your favorite communists executing innocent people.
Hey its a soon to be police officer!how sweet!so no ones putting a gun to your head are they? well i hope you feel lucky, punk (pardon the movie quote) because when the time comes thats exactly where your gonna be, your'e gona wish you never become a filthy capitalist pig! oh and by the way HAVE A NICE DAY! :)

[Guest]

The flaws and injustices of capitalism will fall within our lifetimes.

All we need to do is get the ball rolling. AK-47 was right about agitating the current system. Regardless of whether we succeed in change through the state we can at least prove that capitalism doesnt work and while making demands that mean little to us it will mean a lot to them and attention will be brought to bear on the issues. Either way the tension will end up in open war between the capitalists and those who believe in freedom, justice and all that is good in this world.

I cannot participate in the agitation but will guarantee my presence in the main action. I will prepare for the time. It will be soon.

I suggest you all keep up the good work of spreading revolution.

[flames of the flag]

I shall be blunt. Guest is clearly a moron. He cant be blamed however, obviously years and years of fascist propaganda and mindless advertisements have turned his brain to much. It seems to me that by trying to say that revolutionaries lack the neccesary armaments guest is trying to insight us to say something that will have babylon swooping down on this precious bastion of free speech. So fuck him. He can keep thinking like that and by the time he actually becomes a filthy pig hell never see it coming. Granted, the US gov't will be extremely difficult to militaristically overthrow. But that doesnt make it impossible, we all know what skilled geurilla tacticians such as Che are capable of, even in the face of a much larger and better armed force.
BTW guest(the fascist one), It the failure of pigs like you to control crime and your success in maintaining the class-system which create the demand for unregistered firearms, thus you yourself upon becoming a pig will be sowing the seeds of your own fate. Karma will be served in the form of a hollow tip penetrating your temple. Have a nice fucking day.
VIVE LA REVOLUTION!!!!!

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

Originally posted by flames of the [email protected] 13 2006, 11:51 PM
Karma will be served in the form of a hollow tip penetrating your temple. Have a nice fucking day.
:D Tagged.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by Iroquois [email protected] 10 2006, 10:43 AM
Actions Speak Louder Than Words
Certainly, and many of us do take part in actions. It's good to hear your getting involved. Are you currently an activist or would you like help getting involved in the struggle?

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by flames of the [email protected] 13 2006, 10:51 PM
I shall be blunt. Guest is clearly a moron...Karma will be served in the form of a hollow tip penetrating your temple. Have a nice fucking day.
VIVE LA REVOLUTION!!!!!
Although the Capitalist guest is clearly worthy of such abuse, I can't see that we need to waste too much time on him/her. People like that come to forums like these to get exactly that reaction. Just ignore the person, they must be pretty bored to do something like 'trolling' they just need to get out more.

It's not their fault they live in a bubble. If the Guest gets too annoying we'll ban the IP.

Can I ask that the Guests who actually want to be here register? It makes things less complicated. Thanks.

[badinplaid19]

i'm a little concerned that so many people seem to want a violent revolution. the true revolution will not come about through violence, but through unity and non-violent resistance. we cannot degenerate to committing the same violence that the counter-revolutionaries perpetrate. think for a moment; lenin claimed to be leading the revolution. the violence in russia led to a fascist state whose leaders killed more people than hitler did. meanwhile, in china, mao's brainwashing and suppression of individual freedoms led to what is now a culture of insane nationalism. north korea is one of the most disturbing countries in the world. kim jong-il wraps himself in a red flag and parades his country as "communist" while in reality he pursues nuclear weapons and oppresses his own people. these three states were all sites of violent "communist" revolutions. "violent means will give violent freedom. this would be a menace to the world." we don't need another failed attempt by mobs of poorly armed fanatics to bring about their brand of revolution. we need to be a force for positive change and peace in our own communities and lead by example. otherwise, this revolution is going nowhere fast.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by Additives [email protected] 31 2005, 06:10 PM
Why does everyone think we just sit here and post all day?
More interestingly, why some people believe that their call to arms is just what mankind is waiting to explode into worldwide revolution?

Luís Henrique

[Iroquois Xavier]

Originally posted by Additives Free+Jan 14 2006, 10:54 AM--> (Additives Free @ Jan 14 2006, 10:54 AM)
Iroquois [email protected] 10 2006, 10:43 AM
Actions Speak Louder Than Words
Certainly, and many of us do take part in actions. It's good to hear your getting involved. Are you currently an activist or would you like help getting involved in the struggle? [/b]
I was thinking of getting involved soon but im going to keep my actions on the down low. The area i live in has plenty of nazi groups who wont mind offing a commie to make them feel good. well...HAVE A NICE DAY! :D

[commiecrusader]

the true revolution will not come about through violence, but through unity and non-violent resistance. we cannot degenerate to committing the same violence that the counter-revolutionaries perpetrate
How will everyone sitting down outside government buildings change anything when they start shooting with their full-autos?

[VukBZ2005]

I want to respond more, but I have things to take care of.


It just will not start itself. Just waiting for the "Revolution" will not do anybody any good. These things will not just turn on one day. Revolutions do not simply happen. A cause has to have a purpose. A purpose has to have a reason. A reason has to have validity. Sitting around waiting and *****ing will just lead to more sitting around and *****ing.

:angry:

A revolution can not be started - it must be provoked by the material conditions in existence and by the situation within the cities, towns, and the entire country in question - itself. Many are definately laying down the foundation for those material conditions and situations to come into being, while some sit down and could only look on because they are incapable of being active.

But to think that most revolutionaries sit around all day and do nothing at all but ***** and wine, then problably you need look at yourself and think for a moment.


Write your congress. Tell them to support restrictions on lobbyist influence. Get people you know (Left, right, or center) to do the same. Start collecting signatures, or signing your name to people doing the same (Make sure they are real, NO John Doe, Mickey Mouse, Amanda Huginkis.ect.) This is doomed to fail.

:ph34r:

My goodness AK-47, when you would grow out of that stage in which people think that writing to Congress is going to change anything?!? Writing to those people shows you how you really think when it comes to being realistic about the creation of a revolutionary situation.

And that is sad.

You think that in order to start a revolution, we need be out there doing what those reformists do in order to create some kind of spectacular air time for their worthless proposals - and by writing worthless letters that may someday serve as one more prequisite for retaliation.


This is when the cry against corporate rule can be yelled at anti-Bush, anti capitalist, anti corporate feudal state, pro democracy rallies. This is when those who want a true communist state can claim if you are not against us you are with us.

:huh:

Anti-corporate feudal state? What the hell, AK-47? In a feudalist stage of society, there is no state, but there is the prequisite for a such a state. I am sorry to inform you, "buddy", but the days when a substantial number of feudal lords ruled over the lower serf classes are now over.

Moreover, we live in a capitalist society, in which everyone is "free" but they are really not because the a particular class of people take the value of the labor they produce away, making themselves rich while we get whatever "scraps" are behind.

I dearly believe that we will not return to a feudal society, unless there some ecological tradegy that would regress the progress of collective human society for days, months, & years.

And on those "pro-democracy" demonstratons, what they would do to bring people to the realization that they have to take this society out of the general human picture?!? All that would do would be to serve to further dissolution the minds of people who would be more or less open to your ideas - because as some, if not most of them, see our reality as this when it comes to "politics" - there is the left, there is the right, and there is the center.

As they try to figure out what the left is - the media and it's organs of "infomation" often chase people away from the ideas that would probably turn kids, guys, and gals on towards our will to create a liberated and non-alienated society. They protray the left as being liberals, they protray the center as being people who are not liberal or conservative, and the right as being conservative.

These "pro-democracy" demonstrations - as I said before - would make people think that communists are liberals - and that the liberals are the ones fighting for real social change.

And that would lead to more confusion. And we can not afford that.

[ComTom]

This is the exact point I was trying to make on the point of a peaceful revolution! I said that a violent revolution could only take place if the social conditions are in place, and these dumb assholes can't understand that.

[VukBZ2005]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 05:47 PM
This is the exact point I was trying to make on the point of a peaceful revolution! I said that a violent revolution could only take place if the social conditions are in place, and these dumb assholes can't understand that.

:marx:

The reason they can not reach such a level of understanding is because they do not have the theorhetical clarity needed reach such conclusions. A peaceful revolution is a oxymoron that has emerged out of struggles for Estonian, Latvian, and Lithuanian independence in the beginning phase of the 1990's and out of the installation of "western democracies" throughout Central Asia and Eastern Europe in the past few years.

Moreover, this is the same kind of attitude that was rampant during the course of the 1960's - which fogged up alot of the really important stuff taking place - and quite frankly, lead to the destruction of organizations such as the Students for a Democratic Society and anarchist organizations of various kinds throughout the world. The views that were complete dominance during that decade was mainly of a nature that was completely "dreaming" and idealistic in it's essence.

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 01:15 PM
HAHA. Oh man, all this revolutionary talk must be getting you guys all ready for action huh? First off, let me introduce myself. I am a 21 year old student. I work in a non-union warehouse most of the year and I will be a police officer soon. I am by no means a wealthy individual.

And no one will have the oppurtunity to put a bullet in my brain. The only reason half of you know what a gun looks like is from pictures of your favorite communists executing innocent people.
Ha theres a fucking pig on the board. Right there should be more then enough to ban his fucking IP before the dumbshit officer makes an account. YOU 'RE a student? How could ANY college/university except someone whos got the brain capacity of a pencil? Seriously I'd much rather see this revolution take place and succeed instead of living in the conservative shithole of a society that we're in now.

[badinplaid19]

reading the posts of a lot of people here, i've come to a conclusion. the reason nothing gets done for the revolution is that you'd rather cat fight with one another than make a change. then there are the fools like ramussen who think that using vulgarity makes their point better. you know what? you sound absolutely stupid. how is you ranting and raving making society any better? cheer up emo kid. life doesn't suck. yeah, society is messed up, but killing everyone is not going to fix things. you suggest that violence is the only way. look at india. for a while that country was ground under the heel of british tyranny. they resisted violently, sure, but it brought only more police brutality and more rules. then along came gandhi. you know what happened then? non-violence. they were the wrenches in the gears and when enough wrenches were thrown in, the machine couldn't work any longer. people sympathized with the resistance because of their dignity and strength, they weren't forced to join up for fear of violent retribution. this resulted in a stronger movement, and india was freed. similarly, in ukraine, a nation long under the yoke of soviet-style tyranny, citizens with a vision for the future protested. they didn't shoot the cops or blow up buildings, they stood in the cold and refused to move. they gave roses to the police who stood in lines against them. what did this accomplish? international sympathy for their cause, and yes, they got results. the election they protested was redone, the real winner was put into power, and the opposition triumphed. you can wave your pretend ak's all you like and preach violence and hatred. all you're doing is hurting the cause. working alone in my community, i got quite a few questions about my political views, and the violent attitudes of a few that stain us all. i refuse to participate in violence and lower myself to the level this government has degenerated to. you complain about pigs sir, but the violence you perpetrate or wish to perpetrate makes you just as bad. i will not be ruled through fear and oppression whether the rule is under the name of "communism" or "fascism" or "democracy." your violence will fail ultimately, when people realize you for the bigots you are.

[VukBZ2005]

My goodness, your naivite of your position forces me to explain my position even more than I have.


reading the posts of a lot of people here, i've come to a conclusion. the reason nothing gets done for the revolution is that you'd rather cat fight with one another than make a change.

:blink:

This is going to happen whether you like it or not. People who are revolutionaries love to fight about how things will look like when the revolution does actually occur on the face of our planet.


then there are the fools like ramussen who think that using vulgarity makes their point better. you know what? you sound absolutely stupid. how is you ranting and raving making society any better? cheer up emo kid. life doesn't suck. yeah, society is messed up, but killing everyone is not going to fix things. you suggest that violence is the only way.
look at india. for a while that country was ground under the heel of british tyranny. they resisted violently, sure, but it brought only more police brutality and more rules. then along came gandhi. you know what happened then? non-violence. they were the wrenches in the gears and when enough wrenches were thrown in, the machine couldn't work any longer. people sympathized with the resistance because of their dignity and strength, they weren't forced to join up for fear of violent retribution.

:o

My goodness, violence was the only way our current class of big and rich capitalists took power from the aging classes of feudalist society. How do you expect a French Revolution or American Revolution to have go about if they were nonviolent?

France would have still been under a class of erratic feudal despots and America would have remained thirteen little colonies on the continent of North America and on the coast of the great Atlantic ocean. When we deal with the situation that we revolutionaries are in today, we will have to be peaceful when it is necessary (because this emphasis on the use of violent tactics in every situation gives capitalists justification whenever they attempt to use tactics that make us look bad and will attempt to divert the revolutionary situation) and we will have to become violent when it is necessary for us.

I am confronting this being peaceful non-sense because it is totally idealistic and it must be chased out of the minds of the people who visit here everyday and moreover, the minds of every revolutionary today.

Now, on the India subject, Gandhi was just a symbol that was used as a route to diffuse any real kind of violent situation from occuring in india when it came to the very bottom of the barrel. Gandhi was not the only one resisting English rule. There were leninists and capitalists who were proponents of violence against british rule.

When Gandhi came about, of course he was a threat to the British Empire and it's hold on the jewel of India - as the English called it. However, his tactics worked because the specter of mass violence against British rule by indians in massive amounts were there and they were very much real.

When Britain was left in ruins thanks to the Luftwaffe - they could not afford a violent mass confrontation in India, so they used Gandhi and the non-volient elements to their advantage - which allowed Britain to release India without them experiencing more bloodshed.

However, you just can not apply examples of a "democracy" being installed and a nation that was obviously going to win it's independence sooner or later to a revolutionary situation in which there is obviously going to be very volitile confrontations between the capitalists and the working class. That simply does not make sense.

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 06:48 PM
reading the posts of a lot of people here, i've come to a conclusion. the reason nothing gets done for the revolution is that you'd rather cat fight with one another than make a change. then there are the fools like ramussen who think that using vulgarity makes their point better. you know what? you sound absolutely stupid. how is you ranting and raving making society any better? cheer up emo kid. life doesn't suck. yeah, society is messed up, but killing everyone is not going to fix things. you suggest that violence is the only way. look at india. for a while that country was ground under the heel of british tyranny. they resisted violently, sure, but it brought only more police brutality and more rules. then along came gandhi. you know what happened then? non-violence. they were the wrenches in the gears and when enough wrenches were thrown in, the machine couldn't work any longer. people sympathized with the resistance because of their dignity and strength, they weren't forced to join up for fear of violent retribution. this resulted in a stronger movement, and india was freed. similarly, in ukraine, a nation long under the yoke of soviet-style tyranny, citizens with a vision for the future protested. they didn't shoot the cops or blow up buildings, they stood in the cold and refused to move. they gave roses to the police who stood in lines against them. what did this accomplish? international sympathy for their cause, and yes, they got results. the election they protested was redone, the real winner was put into power, and the opposition triumphed. you can wave your pretend ak's all you like and preach violence and hatred. all you're doing is hurting the cause. working alone in my community, i got quite a few questions about my political views, and the violent attitudes of a few that stain us all. i refuse to participate in violence and lower myself to the level this government has degenerated to. you complain about pigs sir, but the violence you perpetrate or wish to perpetrate makes you just as bad. i will not be ruled through fear and oppression whether the rule is under the name of "communism" or "fascism" or "democracy." your violence will fail ultimately, when people realize you for the bigots you are.
Badinplaid19, I would like to inform you that life doesn't suck for you because you're not in my fucking shoes (or in this case slippers). You'd have to experience the EXACT same things I do in order to catch the drift on how I am. Also please lets not drag my personal issues into this thread because this has nothing to do with emo, suicide, personal hate, and that sort. If you want to discuss those issues with me then go to the "emo" thread in Chit Chat.

Anyway on topic, yes violence is necessary because obviously the capitalists, facsist fuckers, and mostly all (if not all) conservatives would be more than happy to splatter our brains all over the sidewalk with the help of a streetsweeper. We have to snub them before they snub us. Think of it that way. The cops are also very corrupt as well. Milwaukee police anyone? or how about the LAPD? Many police forces were (and SOME still are) very fucked up if you ask me. Those that are dont deserve the respect, just because they have a badge.

[Iroquois Xavier]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 12:48 AM
reading the posts of a lot of people here, i've come to a conclusion. the reason nothing gets done for the revolution is that you'd rather cat fight with one another than make a change. then there are the fools like ramussen who think that using vulgarity makes their point better. you know what? you sound absolutely stupid. how is you ranting and raving making society any better? cheer up emo kid. life doesn't suck. yeah, society is messed up, but killing everyone is not going to fix things. you suggest that violence is the only way. look at india. for a while that country was ground under the heel of british tyranny. they resisted violently, sure, but it brought only more police brutality and more rules. then along came gandhi. you know what happened then? non-violence. they were the wrenches in the gears and when enough wrenches were thrown in, the machine couldn't work any longer. people sympathized with the resistance because of their dignity and strength, they weren't forced to join up for fear of violent retribution. this resulted in a stronger movement, and india was freed. similarly, in ukraine, a nation long under the yoke of soviet-style tyranny, citizens with a vision for the future protested. they didn't shoot the cops or blow up buildings, they stood in the cold and refused to move. they gave roses to the police who stood in lines against them. what did this accomplish? international sympathy for their cause, and yes, they got results. the election they protested was redone, the real winner was put into power, and the opposition triumphed. you can wave your pretend ak's all you like and preach violence and hatred. all you're doing is hurting the cause. working alone in my community, i got quite a few questions about my political views, and the violent attitudes of a few that stain us all. i refuse to participate in violence and lower myself to the level this government has degenerated to. you complain about pigs sir, but the violence you perpetrate or wish to perpetrate makes you just as bad. i will not be ruled through fear and oppression whether the rule is under the name of "communism" or "fascism" or "democracy." your violence will fail ultimately, when people realize you for the bigots you are.
It is because of people like you that the revolution has not already occured. your not helping the cause.

[commiecrusader]

when people realize you for the bigots you are.
Exactly how does being a proponent of violent revolution make someone a bigot? Either substantiate, explain, or retract that statement.

Furthermore, if you want to criticise our methods, please explain how you feel peaceful resistance is going to defeat capitalism, because quite frankly I don't see how it realistically will, with people like the Guest earlier in this discussion only to willing to pop a bullet in a red-blooded commie to protect their exploititive regime.

In short badinplaid, buck up, or shut up.

[badinplaid19]

i apologize, that was an error on my part. i meant to say hypocrite, not bigot. you rail against the violence and oppression perpetrated by this government and then propose to fight fire with fire. not gonna work. you say the idea of a peaceful solution is idealistic, saying that you yourself are more of a realist. hah. the idea of a small group of fanatics with little to no military training taking on the second largest military in the world is laughable. the only way to do so would be through terrorist-style tactics. use of these tactics would probably cause the revolution to lose support amid the american people and they would give the government an excuse to give itself more power with the support of the american people. in short, your violent revolution would simply cause more problems. you've seen what happens in times of fear. right after 9/11, the government passed the patriot act with ease, playing on people's fears of another attack. only later did people realize the true implications of that set of laws. your revolution would simply cause another scare like that.

another thing. what have you done towards your goal of violent revolution sir? i mean, besides ranting and raving on this board. did you buy a gun and start training? did you read a guerrilla combat handbook? good luck with that.

finally, xavier, how am i inhibiting the revolution? it'd be nice to know how calling for peace in a time of war isn't promoting social justice.

[good guest]

Let us suppose the government step up security policies then it may make life difficult for revolutionaries. I doubt it would make the revolution fail however. It may even be instrumental in its success.

As government forces hunt down revolutionaries their searches on property and general prescence in urban areas may alienate them from the masses bringing even more active support to the cause.

Governments taking extreme action will only strengthen the sense of us and them, the capitalists and the working class. Also, we must think that in times of war, supply to material is often reduced or cut off (companies wont risk supplying an area with goods if it is in turmoil). This lack of materialism may wake people up to the harsh realities of capitalism if the revolutionaries use propaganda correctly.

Capitalists would say "rebels have cut off supply, theyre not on your side and are selfish"... we can say "the state dont care about you, youre just a number to them"

Harsher times bring harsher measures and increased resistance.

Vive la Revolucion!

[Vladislav]

AK-47 is agood gun :)

[badinplaid19]

iroquois, i just realized you have a u2 quote in your profile. interesting how the song "sunday, bloody sunday" is a call for peace, and you put it in a place of prominence. but when i advocate peace, you say i am the reason the revolution hasn't gone forward.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 05:47 PM
I said that a violent revolution could only take place if the social conditions are in place,
And peaceful revolution wont happen ever.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 12:48 AM
how is you ranting and raving making society any better?



It's not, that's why we're all involved in organisations and initiatives. What about you?


your violence will fail ultimately, when people realize you for the bigots you are.

Welcome to the world of 'A warning point'

[Good guest]

The song Sunday Bloody Sunday isnt calling for peace. Its calling for justice.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

Originally posted by Additives Free+Jan 18 2006, 04:10 PM--> (Additives Free @ Jan 18 2006, 04:10 PM)
your violence will fail ultimately, when people realize you for the bigots you are.

Welcome to the world of 'A warning point' [/b]
Do note he retracted the statement later on:

[email protected] Jan 17 2006, 04:44 PM
i apologize, that was an error on my part. i meant to say hypocrite, not bigot.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 12:48 AM
the machine couldn't work any longer. people sympathized with the resistance because of their dignity and strength, they weren't forced to join up for fear of violent retribution. this resulted in a stronger movement, and india was freed.
Do your history, Gandhi was a reactionary twat.

And lets think about other peaceful protests, like the ones that have been going on in the west for the past 100 years. How much they've achieved.

Or what about peaceful attempts at revolution before the Russian Revolution? ended up with thousands getting shot.

Im sorry, but no matter how much you would like a peaceful revolution, the ruling class will not give up wealth, power, luxury, and centuries of family tradition because of some people will power.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 04:48 PM
Do note he retracted the statement later on:
Yes but I officialy gave the warning for flamatory comments like



you sound absolutely stupid

cheer up emo kid

then there are the fools like ramussen

[Tormented by Treachery]

If I had to say why a revolution is very hard to achieve, I would have to look no further than page 3 of this discussion.

There is no need for dividing.

You're on the same side.

Stop fighting.

Anyway, moving on, I agree in that there will be no peaceful revolution. If the CIA is looking at Americans that are doing peaceful Iraq protest, what do you think they'll do if a communist party starts gaining strength? All of a sudden, with the judicial branch in the administration's pocket, you'll see a lot of leaders start being found 'guilty' of 'crimes they've committed that have just become unearthed.' There will be a time to fight. It is not now, but there will be a time. Right now, the plan of action, IMHO, is

1) Call upon governments and their cover-ups and lies, elect officials that seem (because they all lie) the most dedicated to this.

2) Fight for absolute transparency, using the ballot.

3) Grassroots socialist/communist movement, start getting votes rapidly, as more and more lies/corrupt officials/terrorism by gov. is expose.

4) When persecuted, start fighting. Cut resources. Vandalize. Burn. Everything.

5) Never stop fighting.

And on, until it is achieved. Every political dissenter must be pulled into this movement. There can be no people at odds with each other.

[badinplaid19]

"Where a government has come into power through some form of popular vote, fraudulent or not, and maintains at least an appearance of constitutional legality, the guerrilla outbreak cannot be promoted, since the possibilities of peaceful struggle have not yet been exhausted."

~Che Guevara

and yes, i'm involved in organizations working for social justice within my community.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

I respect him for saying that, but I must disagree. Perhaps in his time, but things have changed. Peace is only fake now.

[Seong]

I've been processing alot of the ideas floating around here and I must say that I have been convinced that the revolution will not happen until the time is right. Look at history. The French Revolution is probably the best example I can think of. The peasants had been living in squallor for some time, but it wasn't until they were starving and dying that they cried one unanimous fuck you. I'd like it to happen tomorrow, but it's still not feasible. Until we can convince others that another way of life is possible they are more than happy to live entrenched in the pleasures of consumerism within their means.

All that said, even though the revolution isn't just around the corner doesn't mean we can't start some shit. I am going to make it my personal mission to make those capitalist pigs less comfortable.

[Comrada J]

Let's start revolting right now.

[Seong]

lol and what do you suggest we do?

[loveme4whoiam]

Having read through the whole of this thread, I find myself falling somewhere between badinplaid and everyone else. In the end I think that the revolution will end up being violent, simply because capitalists won't voluntarily give up their positions. Do I think that the revolution would benefit from, say, dragging the top 100 corporate leaders of the world out into the street and planting hollowpoints in their heads? What the fuck, of course not! To advocate such a position you make yourselves no better than fascists.

There is a great deal of emphasis on these forums for education of the working class, since revolution cannot come about without popular support. Damn right, it's the way to proceed. But the majority of these posts seem to be ignoring that, and even being hypocritical of that position - if you are going to educate a class of people in equality and justice and anti-discrimination, but then set out with the goal of killing people, that is hypocritical.
I see no problem with participating in reformist activity, as long as everyone remembers that those activities are at best interim measures before the revolution proper begins.

However, I do believe that things will turn violent. Would I rather that they didn't? Of course, I don't relish death, as the posts that some of the people on here would seem to suggest :( . And to clarify, using the revolution as a means for seeking revenge on the capitalists for the damages they have done seems to me to be in ignorance of the actual goals of the revolution.

I hope no-one takes this post to mean that I am against the revolution in some way. Despite my junior nature on these forums, I'm doing everything I can to educate myself so I can sway others, and when the time comes I hope I'll be prepared to fight alongside you all, but I'd prefer to start out without the aim of shooting anyone and everyone who stands in our way. If you wish to label me idealistic, fine, I guess you have the right to your opinion of my beliefs. Just don't think that because of my idealism I'm against ehat we all want to achieve :)

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 12:55 PM
I see no problem with participating in reformist activity, as long as everyone remembers that those activities are at best interim measures before the revolution proper begins.
Why the hell would you bother fighting for reforms if your planning a revolution? when the revolution happens reforms will become illegitimate.

There's no point in fighting to achieve a compromise, and then destroying the opposition. Just bypass the waste of time and money and destroy the opposition.

[bunk]

Originally posted by Additives [email protected] 30 2006, 02:14 PM

Why the hell would you bother fighting for reforms if your planning a revolution? when the revolution happens reforms will become illegitimate.

There's no point in fighting to achieve a compromise, and then destroying the opposition. Just bypass the waste of time and money and destroy the opposition.
If revolution looks a long way off, revolutionary and reformist actions can help improve the conditions we have to live and work in.

[loveme4whoiam]

Exactly. I see the revolution as a long way off yet - by this I mean that by no means is the working class in any way educated in the things that theory tells us they need to be in order for the revolution to be successful.

In the mean time I'd prefer to improve the conditions we have now, which would also serve in an educationary capacity to inform the proletariat of our goals.

[Global_Justice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 05:04 PM
"Where a government has come into power through some form of popular vote, fraudulent or not, and maintains at least an appearance of constitutional legality, the guerrilla outbreak cannot be promoted, since the possibilities of peaceful struggle have not yet been exhausted."

~Che Guevara

and yes, i'm involved in organizations working for social justice within my community.
true, he did say that. however, the possiblity of peaceful struggle has been exhausted, like someone said, you think the CIA would allow a socialist government to get any sort of major momentum?

[badinplaid19]

thanks loveme4whoiam. it's good to hear that i'm not the only leftist who is against unnecessary violence. i appreciate that there will probably be some kind of violence as the revolution progresses, but i don't think we need to kill all the capitalists or that violence is the way to get things started. if we show our goodwill towards everyday people, they will support the revolution no matter what the government says. then, when the government tries to stamp us out, resistance will be too strong because of popular support for the cause.

[Tormented by Treachery]

Brad, that's what I've written. I am against violence, but I do believe that it will be necessary at some point. In an ideal world though, it would be a peaceful revolution.

[AK47]

I think you have missed the point. I know damned well congress will not do a damned thing! I know no one in government today will do a damned thing! Now when we say the people have asked for real change, and nothing happened, the "revolution" comes that closer. Inorder to give any movement lagitamacy there are definite steps that need to be taken. One is the exaustion of peacable solutions. Once they are depleated and the push by the population against the pawns of corporate greed can be seen by all for what it is (Democricy is dead, K street killed it). Now I remember writing in the first post thaty I knew it would not work (Going to congress). It was never intended to work/ just act as a example as to why change needs to be more "dramatic" to help convince the sheeplel being repressed by the current sustem to start leaning further to the left.
I know nothing will change if we keep pushing Communism and do nothing to actually change anything for the better. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think backing limiting corporate influence would be a good cause for those who champion power to the people. Now when (not if) our "leaders" fail us we have proof to shove infront of those who dought capitalism is a malevenant process. It will be a thing that gives us more validity. If this movement later needs to resort to more violent actions in the defense and I hope it does not, but it is a risk social evelution. It is the exaustion of peacable means that I am concerned about. It must be clear to all who the aggressor is.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 02:04 AM
when we say the people have asked for real change, and nothing happened, the "revolution" comes that closer.
People have been asking for change, and people nothing has happened...for hundreds of years, and it's not got us any closer to revolution.


Inorder to give any movement legitimacy there are definite steps that need to be taken

Legitimate in who’s eyes? The states? the state will never see a revolutionaries position as legitimate.


One is the exhaustion of peacable solutions. Once they are depleated and the push by the population against the pawns of corporate greed can be seen by all for what it is (Democricy is dead, K street killed it). Now I remember writing in the first post thaty I knew it would not work (Going to congress). It was never intended to work/ just act as a example as to why change needs to be more "dramatic" to help convince the sheeplel being repressed by the current sustem to start leaning further to the left.

So we need to fail at reform to show people that they need to revolt? can't we just suceed at revolt?


I know nothing will change if we keep pushing Communism and do nothing to actually change anything for the better. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think backing limiting corporate influence would be a good cause for those who champion power to the people. Now when (not if) our "leaders" fail us we have proof to shove in front of those who dought capitalism is a malevenant process. It will be a thing that gives us more validity.

We already have validity, your talking about improving our image.


If this movement later needs to resort to more violent actions in the defense and I hope it does not, but it is a risk social evelution. It is the exaustion of peacable means that I am concerned about. It must be clear to all who the aggressor is.

Peaceful means were exhausted centauries ago.

[AK47]

[QUOTE]We already have validity, your talking about improving our image.[QUOTE]
We can be as right as humanly possable, but if we let the corporate owned propaganda machine (News media) defign our immage we will fail. WE can do something now. A show of unity, a show of public interest thayt could galvinise the movement. Most of the sheeple out there only know Communism from its distorted Soviet prospective. I am talking about not just a popular cause, but a tool to gain exposure in the main streem rather than sitting in our bunkers waiting for the worms to come. I am not just talking about asking for out "leaders " to help us. I am talking about using a issue to show the masses the inability of our elected officials (and their corporate mastes) to do what needs to be done. I is what forced the government to action in the 1920s and 1930s, and now we have a better way to expose the mis-actions. This is not an end in itself. It is a first step. If we can show our validity to the masses that have been convinced of our madness. We will win. If we just go to revolution with out passing "GO" so to speak then our image you speak of will be defigned by our enemies.


I think a discussion on the point violence is necessary migh be in order. I know there will be a point when we will need to bare armes, I am just trying to force the general public closer to that conclusion. Hey if you can think of a nother way to insure a popular rebelion, let's hear it, please.

[AK47]

]So we need to fail at reform to show people that they need to revolt?[


Yes every time chance happens the existing system has to be shown to be innept. You want to go out and start shooting, I dont blame you, but it will not work without the support of the people, and they have been fed a lie all their lives. They think capitalism is inhreently good. and need to be shown otherwise. Some tact is all I am talking about

[AK47]

[QUOTE]Anti-corporate feudal state? What the hell, AK-47? In a feudalist stage of society, there is no state, but there is the prequisite for a such a state. I am sorry to inform you, "buddy", but the days when a substantial number of feudal lords ruled over the lower serf classes are now over.

No, they have just been replaced by the CEO. No king, but Corporations still rule over all of us. They right the rulls, and then pat themselves on the back for being law and order people.

[YSR]

I'm new, so I'm probably treading on ground that will get me quickly labelled "counter-revolutionary," but whatever:

I think that Tormented by Treachery hit the nail on the head. Saying that the revolution must only come through violence or must only come through non-violence seems rather arbitrary. Is the revolution here, today? I see stirrings, true, but I don't think we are prepared for a massive uprising against capitalism (at least in my neck of the USA).

So here's my point: People can decide on their own whether they believe violence is morally acceptable in the course of revolution. That's their choice. But for us, as a movement, this message board, whatever, to decide today that violence is or is not useful is entirely too early.

I must comment that my personal feeling is that the violence, if it does become useful, should only be used when we have the upper hand in information sharing. This clashes with what many revolutionaries think, that being that we must use violence when we are hopelessly oppressed. But one must look no further back than the most remembered event in my country's radical heritage, that of the Haymarket Square bombing, to see that revolutionary violence is often used as a tool for the State to engage in massive reactionary action. Violence is difficult to explain when the capitalists control the media.

So yeah. Anyhow, like I said, the above is one reason why, when the revolution comes, I will most likely argue against use of frequent episodes of violence. But my point doesn't matter until we move further along on the revolutionary schedule.

Hope this doesn't make me a capitalist sellout, comrades :D

[AK47]

Ihe funny thing is people only assumed I was thinking of violence. I just wanted to get back to the days when socialists, communists ans anarchists were active on the streets. They had isues they championed (Anarchists and child labor , socialists and communists had workers rights for examples( I shut up a lot of right wingers with that lil tidbit of anarchy history))) I am not sure when it got to a debate over violence or not. There is no reason we have to head out into the streets guns blasing right now. It aint quite bad enough at this monent (2-6 years from now given the current decline perhaps). But, this is not the point. If it takes a revolution to make a better world so be it,. If it does not, even better (they do get messy, and the outcome is usually not all that predictable). Yea, the FBI/CIA will spy on any groop that sounds too "People's liberation". This did not stop people from trying. They failed most of the time, and many were murdered. It will not be easy to change a currupt, and injust world if you think it is too much for you to even risk, then you are on the wrong web page. WWW.peachykeen.com might be more your speed if it exists.

I know the word revolution envokes some graphic images, but they can at least start without violence. Let the other side start the shooting if it is to start. It could be that peacable means are exausted (I don't think so, but it is a reasonable posability), but if we position ourselves as the agressor we will find no popular suport. We are in an image driven world. Is this not the best way to run a society? Yes! If you want to communicate you have to speek the language. Then you can ween people from it.

If and when that time comes that people are desperate enough to rise up against their oppressors I think it would be better for the Communist movement to have had a record of supporting issues and causes that would wave benefited them. Weither they suceed or fail in the short run.

[AK47]

Posted twice ??

[loveme4whoiam]

I agree with what you are saying AK47, YSR (welcome to the boards btw :)). In a recent debate an opponent got impressed with himself by proving that Communism would fail because "you require everyone to believe it, and I will always oppose it". As well as being arrogant capitalist rhetoric, this is a good case in point about the revolution as well.

Support of the masses is a given for there to be a successful revolution, but there will always be those who oppose change when it doesn't suit their interests (even though it does. If you get my drift :P), which is why, unfortunately, I think that the revolution will turn to violence. YSR is right to say that we shouldn't say for certain violence will or will not happen, but I still think we should be prepared for it.

[AK47]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 08:19 PM
I agree with what you are saying AK47, YSR (welcome to the boards btw :)). In a recent debate an opponent got impressed with himself by proving that Communism would fail because "you require everyone to believe it, and I will always oppose it". As well as being arrogant capitalist rhetoric, this is a good case in point about the revolution as well.

Support of the masses is a given for there to be a successful revolution, but there will always be those who oppose change when it doesn't suit their interests (even though it does. If you get my drift :P), which is why, unfortunately, I think that the revolution will turn to violence. YSR is right to say that we shouldn't say for certain violence will or will not happen, but I still think we should be prepared for it.
It is not a matter for me to concern myself. If "The Revolution" turns violent or not. If it will then it will. If you think we can just one day form a functional, and effective unit without some drilling and training, however, you are gravely mistaken. Once the bullets start whizzing past your ears, how long will you be able to stand. The American Revolutionary only stood for 2-3 shots. The people you will fight will be trained and motivated. They will be conditioned to run toward the fire with malice and determination. We must train in tactics that counter their tactics, and reduce our casualties. If we are to fight the forces of capitalism we must be as prepared as posable. I do hope I am wrong. I still have some belief in the goodness of humanity even through all the exploitation and tyranny. I could just be a fool. If history proves it then oh well. When all other paths are found fruitless, and have dead ends I will raise my arms and rally around my brothers and sisters against the exploitation of their labor, and the injustice of a corporate/feudal hierarchy.

[loveme4whoiam]

I'm not saying we should just hand out Kalashnikov's and point at the soldiers, not by any means. I agree that training is absolutely necessary, without it we'd get crushed. I'm just saying that having a small, well-trained group of hardened Communists will not carry the day. A large, well-trained army of the proletariat with the support of everyone not carrying a gun will.

[leftist resistance]

I agree.having the support of the masses is crucial.in this way,it would be possible that the soldiers themselves will start joining us,as it happened during the Paris uprising.
I do not advocate violence,im sure most members here don't either,but if it has to happen..when all established laws have been broken,when the oppressor openly attack the masses,then we have to defend the people.this is explained in the commie manifesto : if there are peaceful means,then communists are the last to oppose it.we know that conspiracies are harmful...but if the need arise,then we will defend the workers as much as we are defending them with our words

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 06:30 AM
I agree.having the support of the masses is crucial.
I hate this perception that, we are some elitist clan that will take power and change society...but mass support would be good.

We're not fucking dictators. Or maybe you are some kind of Leninist, I dunno. We will be the masses. We will not lead them.


I do not advocate violence,im sure most members here don't either,

Actually, most members do.


then we have to defend the people

We are the people. We'd be defending ourselves.


we will defend the workers

We are the workers.

[AK47]

Originally posted by Additives Free+Feb 1 2006, 01:02 PM--> (Additives Free @ Feb 1 2006, 01:02 PM)
[email protected] 1 2006, 02:04 AM
when we say the people have asked for real change, and nothing happened, the "revolution" comes that closer.
People have been asking for change, and people nothing has happened...for hundreds of years, and it's not got us any closer to revolution.


Inorder to give any movement legitimacy there are definite steps that need to be taken

Legitimate in who’s eyes? The states? the state will never see a revolutionaries position as legitimate.


One is the exhaustion of peacable solutions. Once they are depleated and the push by the population against the pawns of corporate greed can be seen by all for what it is (Democricy is dead, K street killed it). Now I remember writing in the first post thaty I knew it would not work (Going to congress). It was never intended to work/ just act as a example as to why change needs to be more "dramatic" to help convince the sheeplel being repressed by the current sustem to start leaning further to the left.

So we need to fail at reform to show people that they need to revolt? can't we just suceed at revolt?


I know nothing will change if we keep pushing Communism and do nothing to actually change anything for the better. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think backing limiting corporate influence would be a good cause for those who champion power to the people. Now when (not if) our "leaders" fail us we have proof to shove in front of those who dought capitalism is a malevenant process. It will be a thing that gives us more validity.

We already have validity, your talking about improving our image.


If this movement later needs to resort to more violent actions in the defense and I hope it does not, but it is a risk social evelution. It is the exaustion of peacable means that I am concerned about. It must be clear to all who the aggressor is.

Peaceful means were exhausted centauries ago. [/b]
Nothing has happened? Oh, women still can't vote. Workers still can't join unions, children still work in sweat shops in downtown N YC.

It is slow, slow as shit , but it is moving.

Lagitimite in ther eyes of the general population you twit! This society is all abouit immage. Tou have to speak the language if you want to speak to the people.

Yes we have lagitimacy, but if we can not convince the rest of the peoplew this we are lost!
O

[Dyst]

Nothing starts itself of course. But I do believe that the communist revolution will happen because it is necessary for the human kind in order to survive. Not because some "revolutionary" party says "it's time."

In fact I think that's the only way we can establish a functioning communist society; out of necessity. When capitalism has abused human rights, political freedom and the environment, not to mention caused human suffering, to a certain point, I think people will realize that change is necessary.

[loveme4whoiam]

Indeed, this is exactly what I have been saying. No-one can force a revolution, it has to grow from the will of everyone (at least, most of everyone). All the activism and stuff that we do now is to show people that there is an alternative to what there is now; if they don&#39;t see one they won&#39;t think to try and achieve change. I agree with AK47, Communism needs legitimacy within the eyes of the proletariat - just as long as reformist activities are not expected to achieve anything in and of themselves <_<

[AK47]

It may be necessary to discontinue the old rhetoric. communism/ capitalism/ anarchy....... yatta yatta. it is more important that the natural resources, and production be placed in the control of the people. This hundred year old terminology colored by victorian lenzes just may be out of date. I am not saying the root causes are invalid, but they may have not gotten it entirely correct. Hell even Freud and Darwin were not completly correct. No scientist ever is. The process is there to keep us getting closer, and closer. I mean wasn&#39;t Marx just puting forth a theory of social evolution. Nobody said that theory was written in stone. On the other hand war is an evolutionary force on the spieces. This may be more appropiate in philosophy, but it is a motivating factor to action.

QUOTE (..... @ Feb 25 2006, 06:30 AM)
I agree.having the support of the masses is crucial.


I hate this perception that, we are some elitist clan that will take power and change society...but mass support would be good.

We&#39;re not fucking dictators. Or maybe you are some kind of Leninist, I dunno. We will be the masses. We will not lead

I do share your concerns. We do not want to replace one dictator with another. The definition of leading must be changed. The best leaders follow and facilitate the will of the people. Leaders today have "visions" of how they think the world should be and convince us to act not in our best interest. this is not leading, it is manipulation and coersion. If this movement ever resorts to such tactics I would turn my aggression toward it. I do concern myself with immage as of now, simply because it is the way things are right now. It will be necessary for us to ween people from that mode of thinking as quick as possable, oh and sorry about the twit thing.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 09:11 PM
Nothing has happened? Oh, women still can&#39;t vote. Workers still can&#39;t join unions, children still work in sweat shops in downtown N YC.
All of the above were changed by violent revolutionary struggles.


It is slow, slow as shit , but it is moving.

Agreed


Lagitimite in ther eyes of the general population you twit&#33; This society is all abouit immage. Tou have to speak the language if you want to speak to the people.

Again, enforcing this idea that the people and ourselves are two different entities.


Yes we have lagitimacy, but if we can not convince the rest of the peoplew this we are lost&#33;
O

Done from a grassroots level, I agree.

[YSR]

Originally posted by AK47 @ Feb 26 2006+ 09:11 PM--> (AK47 @ Feb 26 2006 &#064; 09:11 PM)
Nothing has happened? Oh, women still can&#39;t vote. Workers still can&#39;t join unions, children still work in sweat shops in downtown N YC.

All of the above were changed by violent revolutionary struggles.[/b]

But we didn&#39;t start the violence or do most of it. Most of it was the state. That&#39;s the important thing about revolutionary violence: if it happens and we do it, fine, as long as it helps us and discredit us. And the state will almost always get away with it. This needs to be considered before violence is EVER attempted in revolutionary struggle.


Additives Free
Again, enforcing this idea that the people and ourselves are two different entities.

We are. We are revolutionary people. "The people" are nonrevolutionary people. "They" are not radicalized. "They" will scab, betray, and sell us out to the capitalists.

Worker solidarity is how we will win. But workers who worship at the altar of capital and the "boot-straps" myth are not our comrades. They are class traitors, pure and simple. And they will remain so until "we" radicalize them or they radicalize themselves.

So yes, AK47 has a point. The until the mass of the proletariat becomes radicalized, we must not romanticise solidarity with people who don&#39;t agree with us.

(AK47, your "twit" comment is unnecessary and not helpful in debate.)

All that being said, Additives, I think we&#39;re in the same ballpark about the violence issue. Maybe not in agreement, but close. Also, no one else has pointed out that:

We&#39;re not fucking dictators. Or maybe you are some kind of Leninist, I dunno.

is the coolest thing I&#39;ve read today. Thumbs up&#33; Hilarious.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by Young Stupid [email protected] 4 2006, 06:09 AM
But we didn&#39;t start the violence or do most of it. Most of it was the state.
Why should we wait for them to hit us first? Especially since it could be argued that the first shot has already been fired.


We are. We are revolutionary people. "The people" are nonrevolutionary people. "They" are not radicalized. "They" will scab, betray, and sell us out to the capitalists.

Those filthy commoners, it is we, the enlightened few who must bring these savages to freedom&#33; they are inferior to me for I understand marx&#33;


Worker solidarity is how we will win

Didn&#39;t you just refer to the workforce as people to will "will scab, betray, and sell us out to the capitalists"


But workers who worship at the altar of capital and the "boot-straps" myth are not our comrades. They are class traitors, pure and simple. And they will remain so until "we" radicalize them or they radicalize themselves.

I agree, but when they are "radicalized" we will all be "the people" so why this distinction. We&#39;re all "the people" now, just most don&#39;t agree with us.


So yes, AK47 has a point. The until the mass of the proletariat becomes radicalized, we must not romanticise solidarity with people who don&#39;t agree with us.

Well ok, but no one here has really suggested solidarity with reactionary members of the working class...


All that being said, Additives, I think we&#39;re in the same ballpark about the violence issue. Maybe not in agreement, but close. Also, no one else has pointed out that....
is the coolest thing I&#39;ve read today. Thumbs up&#33; Hilarious.

Thanks :) bare in mind that disagreement is good to an extent. On issues like this anyway.

[AK47]

Why do we have to let them fire the first shot even after they already may have fired several? This is a good question. It does seem irritating to have to wait when the path seems so clear.

the answer is just as irritating: Our actions will be portrayed negitivly in the press (it is controled by 5 people who will have their power removed if I have anything to do about it). Tact and nonviolent persuasion will work best right now. I am sure there will be a trime when we will need to defend the ground we have gained. There will be counter revolutionary forces for some time. Random acts of violence ie. burning cars,smashing windows, ect will never work. Sabotage has its place if it is done in a manor that protects human life. Why should we be concerned with human life when they do not share that concern? We are better than that. This is how things stand as can see it. Tomorrow it will more than likely be different.

The powers that be have an army of people making sure their immage is what the people want to see. We can not win against a PR campaign like that if we play into their hands. The revolution needs to understand the words we use, and the actions we take will be distorted and placed infront for everyone to see. I would rather have some evidence of our actions we can use against them. Like "See we tried to make change nonviolently (people have short attention spans so they will not remember the anarchist that made sure their children do not work in sweat shops was murdered in prison) It is our responcibility to keep at least on some level trying to promote causes that would help everyone. Yes it is just image, but it is a front that can not be ignored.

Most people are not our allies. Many will scab and betray us. (Radical not that stupid) They have been lied to all their lives. I would expect nothing more. The lies have been in the method of imagery and non sequitor logic. It is my contention that we will have to undo these lies with imagery of our own. It is simply psychological warfare tactics that need to be used. If for nothing less just theremoval of a portion of those who would be swayed. Think of it as an ammo preservation move if you must.

I just think a grass routs movement to live in commune with our fellow pinkos would shake up the realistate industry. When the local government forbids it we can state out "Religious" right to live in commune with our fellow humans.

[YSR]

Those filthy commoners, it is we, the enlightened few who must bring these savages to freedom&#33; they are inferior to me for I understand marx&#33;

Back up the train there, I&#39;m not Marxist. Furthermore, I suggested in my post that the unradicalized workers can "radicalize themselves," so that&#39;s not what I&#39;m suggesting.


Didn&#39;t you just refer to the workforce as people to will "will scab, betray, and sell us out to the capitalists"


No, only the portion of the workforce which believes in capitalism. Which, right now, is most of it, I would speculate (at least in my country). And they&#39;ll sell us out, yes. They have throughout history.

Worker solidarity can only come from workers who are united. And we, as radical workers, are not united with them, as capitalist workers. (Capitalist as in believing in capitalism, not actually being "capitalist" in the sense of the word "bourgeois".) So yes, victory will come through solidarity. But solidarity with people who don&#39;t agree with you and who will betray is not solidarity. It is idiocy.

And yes, I agree, disagreement is good&#33;

[leftist resistance]

We&#39;re not fucking dictators. Or maybe you are some kind of Leninist, I dunno. We will be the masses. We will not lead them.


Im no Leninist.what i meant was to make the masses realise that we are not their enemy,that we are no different to them.nowhere did i state we will lead them.


Actually, most members do.

We are the people. We&#39;d be defending ourselves.

Ok.im not going to debate on this because it won&#39;t do any good.the thing is did you understand what i was trying to get across? ;)
nevertheless,you&#39;re welcomed


Most people are not our allies. Many will scab and betray us. (Radical not that stupid) They have been lied to all their lives. I would expect nothing more. The lies have been in the method of imagery and non sequitor logic. It is my contention that we will have to undo these lies with imagery of our own. It is simply psychological warfare tactics that need to be used. If for nothing less just theremoval of a portion of those who would be swayed. Think of it as an ammo preservation move if you must.


i agree that most people are currently not our allies.they have been given negative images of leftists by teachers,politicians,newscasters(i&#39;ve seen that in malaysia),etc.most of whom are very eager to manipulate certain truths to add this bias.
however,they have the potential to be our allies.once they realise what we stand for and how they untrue the false allegations against us are.till then,education is the way.we were once not from the left.but because we thought "no,this world isn&#39;t good as they&#39;d like us to believe" that we came to the left.
i&#39;ve not been successfull in turning people around me into comrades but at least i&#39;ve managed to clarify their misinterpretations.and if anyone doesn&#39;t like what im talking about then i wouldn&#39;t force my thoughts onto him/her.coz that&#39;ll make me no better than the repressive rulers.
ultimately,the truths are for the individual to see.we are here to make them realise that.