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viva le revolution
28th December 2005, 10:10
On the Relations between Lenin and Stalin
Maria Ulyanova
Introduction
In this issue we publish the third in the series of materials relating to the ‘Lenin Testament’ and the relations between Lenin and Stalin. The two statements of Maria Ulyanova, the sister of Lenin, given below were published for the first time in the USSR in 1989 during the period of ‘perestroika’. Yu. Murin and V. Stepanov who prepared these and related documents for publication in the Soviet journal ‘Izvestia TsK KPSS’ noted that the background to the writing of these two statements was the joint plenum of the Central Committee and the Central Control Commission of the A-UCP(b) held in 1926:
‘The opposition (L.D. Trotsky, G.E. Zinoviev, L.B. Kamenev and others) in their struggle against I.V. Stalin and the majority in the CC used the last letters written by V.I. Lenin, in which he had put forth his opinions of eminent party leaders, and accused the CC of hiding these documents from the party. G.E. Zinoviev in his speech at the plenum talked about the contents of V.I. Lenin’s letter to I.V. Stalin dated 5 March 1923. Consequently the following documents were read out in the plenum : V.I. Lenin’s letter to the Congress dated 25 December 1922, the follow-up letter dated to the Congress dated 25 December 1922 – ‘On the question of nationalities or ‘autonomisation’ and the letter ‘To the party of Bolsheviks’ dated 18 (31) October 1917 on the attitude of L.B. Kamenev and G.E. Zinoviev towards the question of the armed rebellion.
‘Following the discussion at the plenum and having taken into consideration the reading of the letters of V.I. Lenin, G.E. Zinoviev, L.D. Trotsky, N.I. Bukharin and I.V. Stalin, M.I. Ulyanova issued statements which were appended to the stenographic report of the plenum.’
(‘Izvestia TsK KPSS’, No. 12, 1989, below p. 200, translated from the Russian by Tahir Asghar).
It is clear from the second statement made by Maria Ulyanova that the first had been prompted by the request of Bukharin and Stalin to guard the latter a little from the attack of the opposition. The involvement of Nikolai Bukharin in the preparation of Maria Ulyanova’s statement dated 26th July is evident from the following note in his handwriting on the letterhead of the CC of the RCP(b) which is preserved in the former archives of the CPSU(b) :
‘In view of the systematic slander on Comrade Stalin by the opposition minority in the CC and the unending assertions regarding a virtual termination of all relations by V.I. Lenin with I.V. Stalin, I feel obliged to say a few words about the relations between Lenin and Stalin as I was present alongside of Lenin during the whole period at the end of V.I.’s life.
‘Vlad. Ilyich Lenin highly valued Stalin, so much so, that at the time of the first stroke and also during the second stroke V.I. entrusted Stalin with the most intimate of assignments while emphasising that it is Stalin alone that he is asking for.
‘In general, during the whole period of his illness, V.I. did not ask for any of the members of the CC and did not want to meet any of them and would ask only for Stalin to come. Thus all the speculations that V.I.’s relations with Stalin were not as good as with others is totally contrary to the truth’.
(Loc. cit. Translated from the Russian by Tahir Asghar).
In the first statement Maria Ulyanova rejected the charges made by the opposition that there had been a rupture between Lenin and Stalin in the last months of the life of Lenin and also affirmed the closeness of the political and personal relations between the two Bolshevik leaders. Zinoviev in his speech of 21st July 1926 at the joint plenum of the Central Committee and Central Control Commission of the A-UCP(b) had referred to the evaluations by Lenin of Stalin in the second part of his ‘Letter to the Congress’ (24th December, 1922), the continuation of the letter (4th January 1923) and the article ‘On the Question of Nationalities or ‘Autonomisation’. On the question of Stalin’s ‘rudeness’ Maria Ulyanova asserted her opinion that the incident between Stalin and Nadezhda Krupskaya was ‘completely personal and had nothing to do with politics’. It had arisen as by the decision of the Central Committee Stalin was charged with the responsibility of ensuring that no political news reached Lenin during the period of his serious illness as per the instructions of the doctors. Nadezhda Krupskaya had breached this decision which led to Stalin criticising her and in turn was hammered by Lenin. Maria Ulyanova considered that ‘had Lenin not been so seriously ill then he would have reacted to the incident differently’.
The second, undated, statement by Maria Ulyanova is more reflective of the events in the last months of the life of Lenin. Ulyanova sought to delve more deeply into the connection between the last letter of Lenin which demands an apology from Stalin for his behaviour with Nadezhda Krupskaya with the last writings of Lenin and the political line of Stalin in the period after the death of Lenin. Maria Ulyanova sheds new light on the personal and political intimacy between Lenin and Stalin. We learn that Stalin was a more frequent visitor to Lenin in the period of his illness compared to the other party leaders. Lenin turned to Stalin for help when he came to the decision that in the event of his becoming paralysed he wished to end his life by consuming potassium cyanide. Maria Ulyanova’s account of this matter is of great value as it answers the scandalous charge levelled by Trotsky that Stalin had arranged for Lenin to be administered poison. (L. Trotsky, ‘Stalin’, Vol. 2, London, 1969, p. 199). The narration is of further value in countering the assiduously fostered notion prevalent in the west that Trotsky was in some sense closer to Lenin and in fact the ‘heir’ of Lenin and Leninism. From her direct knowledge of the discussions of Lenin and Stalin on the subject of Trotsky, Maria Ulyanova is able to aver that Lenin stood in close political proximity to Stalin despite the difference between the two on the Caucasian question. (On this see the note ‘Bolshevism and the National Question’, ‘Revolutionary Democracy’, Vol. 1, No. 2, September 1995, pp. 66-69). Ulyanova’s account of the dissatisfaction of Lenin with Stalin on the matter of sending monetary assistance to the émigré Menshevik Martov may not convince many of Lenin’s political correctness on the question, rather political sympathy may go to Stalin who exclaimed to Lenin that he should find another party secretary if he wished to send money to this enemy of the workers.
The differences between Lenin and Stalin manifested in Lenin’s last letter to Stalin where he demanded an apology from Stalin originated, as Maria Ulyanova pointed out, from a situation where Stalin was required by the party politbureau to ensure the compliance of the doctors’ instructions that Lenin should not be informed of political developments. Ulyanova indicates that the ‘maximum fear’ was of Nadezhda Krupskaya who was accustomed to holding discussions on political matters with Lenin. Stalin’s attempt to maintain the medical instructions precipitated the quarrel with Krupskaya in which he threatened to take her before the Central Control Commission of the party. This in turn provoked the contretemps between Lenin and Stalin.
Lenin’s letter to Stalin of 5th March 1923 did not touch upon the fact that Nadezhda Krupskaya was circumventing the medical instructions and that Stalin had been charged by the politbureau to ensure their compliance. Lenin demanded that Stalin withdraw his words to Nadezhda Krupskaya, apologise or face a rupture in their relations.
This letter is well known as it was circulated at the Twentieth Congress of the CPSU by Khrushchev in 1956 and later reprinted all over the world by the revisionist Soviet press.
It is now known that Khrushchev had been a member of the Trotskyist opposition in the early 1920s so that, as Kaganovich has pointed out in his memoirs, the ‘secret speech’ represented an example of political recidivism.
Lenin’s letter to Stalin was held back at the request of Nadezhda Krupskaya and was eventually delivered personally by M.A. Volodcheva to Stalin on 7th March, 1923. Stalin immediately replied to the letter of Lenin but it was not read by the intended recipient as Lenin’s health worsened. The rebuttal of Stalin is self-explanatory. It is published as an appendix to the two statements of Maria Ulyanova for the first time in the English language.

Luís Henrique
28th December 2005, 12:57
So, why was Bukharin executed under Stalin's orders, for crimes he had never committed?

Luís Henrique

Zeruzo
28th December 2005, 13:04
Originally posted by Luís [email protected] 28 2005, 12:57 PM
So, why was Bukharin executed under Stalin's orders, for crimes he had never committed?

Luís Henrique
Not under Stalin's orders, that for starters. And here was valid proof, even the U.S. ambassador said that Bukharin's testimony was correct.
Now lets change the story, YOU proof that he never commited the crimes and that he was executed under Stalin's orders.

viva le revolution
28th December 2005, 13:05
Please refer to the other threads if not refer to another view of stalin by ludo martens.

Zeruzo
28th December 2005, 13:08
allright i'll give the proof:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/bukharin/w...trial/index.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/bukharin/works/1938/trial/index.htm)
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node105.ht...000000000000000 (http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node105.html#SECTION001033000000000000000)

that'd be enough i guess...
the burden of proof is with him anyway.

viva le revolution
28th December 2005, 13:11
Thank you Zeruso.

Luís Henrique
28th December 2005, 17:00
Not under Stalin's orders, that for starters.

Ah, yes. Like the Tzar, Papa Stalin was only responsible for the government's nice actions. Shooting Bukharin was certainly an act of the bureaucracy. I deem Stalin in fact was never told that Bukharin was to be executed!


And here was valid proof, even the U.S. ambassador said that Bukharin's testimony was correct.

If I was using the US ambassador as a witness, you would accuse me of taking the words of an imperialist stooge by their face value.

Why would the damn US ambassador care about a communist revolutionary like comrade Bukharin?!


Now lets change the story, YOU proof that he never commited the crimes and that he was executed under Stalin's orders.

I guess this was the method under Stalin's tyranny: guilty until proven otherwise (preferably after execution).

Come on, this is not "HISTORY", this is TRASH. What have we to suffer next? Air-brushed photos?

Luís Henrique

Luís Henrique
28th December 2005, 17:13
allright i'll give the proof:

[URL=http://www.marxists.org/archive/bukharin/works/1938/trial/index.htm]

Your proof boils down to:


The Court further claimed that “in 1918 Bukharin, and the group of ‘Left Communists’ headed by him, in conjunction with Trotsky and the ‘Left’ Socialist-Revolutionaries. The aim of Bukharin and his fellow-conspirators was to thwart the treaty of Brest-Litovsk, to overthrow the Soviet government, to arrest and assassinate V.I. Lenin, J.V. Stalin and J.M. Sverdlov and to form a new governments consisting of Bukharinites, Trotskyites and ‘Left’ Socialist-Revolutionaries.

Bullshit.

Do you believe that the opinion of Maria Ulianova or Nadezhda Krupsakaya is to te taken into account?

What would you say about Lenin's own words?


“Bukharin is not only a most valuable and major theorist of the Party; he is also rightly considered the favourite of the whole Party, but his theoretical views can be classified as fully Marxist only with great reserve, for there is something scholastic about him (he has never made a study of the dialectics, and, I think, never fully understood it).”
V.I. Lenin 1922.

Now, let's talk, let's see, about Preobrazhenski? Why was he killed under Stalin's orders?

Luís Henrique

Led Zeppelin
28th December 2005, 17:13
Jesus Christ "viva le revolution", can you stop making these fucking stupid threads about Stalin and how he was a fucking saint?

No one cares!

In fact, this stupid thread making is counter-productive to your own goals, do you think people are idiots that believe shit when they read it, without any sources or without any historical reality?

At least books like Another View of Stalin are based on historical facts and sources, instead of speculations.

viva le revolution
28th December 2005, 20:42
It would indeed be speculation if i was making it up. Unfortunately my not-so scholarly friend i am merely posting articles already written not by anyone contemporary but those closest to Lenin himself. You are free to accept or reject them as regards your seriousness about debating Stalin and his role in the USSR instead of making childish comments in an effort to stifle debate. It is called hearing BOTH sides. Unfortunately ML you may not be very used to it.
As for your contention that noone cares, that's your opinion, just shows the objectivity of your reasoning skills.
My sources are the articles written by these people, if i had written or argued something that was historically inaccurate then please point out where.

Zeruzo
29th December 2005, 11:35
Ah, yes. Like the Tzar, Papa Stalin was only responsible for the government's nice actions. Shooting Bukharin was certainly an act of the bureaucracy. I deem Stalin in fact was never told that Bukharin was to be executed!

I have no doubts that Stalin was told, but you claimed he had personally ordered which is a huge difference.


If I was using the US ambassador as a witness, you would accuse me of taking the words of an imperialist stooge by their face value.

Why would the damn US ambassador care about a communist revolutionary like comrade Bukharin?!

I said EVEN the US ambassador, since the chances he'd say it's an honest trial are very small. It was such an open trial that it was almost impossible to falsely accuse him (bukharin).

And to the question why the ambassador would care: it's good propaganda. Look they murdered a political opponent, bad commies!


I guess this was the method under Stalin's tyranny: guilty until proven otherwise (preferably after execution).

Come on, this is not "HISTORY", this is TRASH. What have we to suffer next? Air-brushed photos?

Actually thats not really true... if you'd read the damn trial itself!



Do you believe that the opinion of Maria Ulianova or Nadezhda Krupsakaya is to te taken into account?

What would you say about Lenin's own words?

Read the trial itself before commenting.

And just beceause Lenin said some nice things about Bukharin doesn't mean that Bukharin liked him.



Now, let's talk, let's see, about Preobrazhenski? Why was he killed under Stalin's orders?

To be honest i do not know, i am currently searching the net but cant find much information.

Luís Henrique
29th December 2005, 12:57
Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 11:35 AM


Now, let's talk, let's see, about Preobrazhenski? Why was he killed under Stalin's orders?

To be honest i do not know, i am currently searching the net but cant find much information.

So you don't know about Preobrazhenski.

What about Grigori Zinoviev, then?

Luís Henrique

Zeruzo
29th December 2005, 13:51
Originally posted by Luís Henrique+Dec 29 2005, 12:57 PM--> (Luís Henrique @ Dec 29 2005, 12:57 PM)
[email protected] 29 2005, 11:35 AM


Now, let's talk, let's see, about Preobrazhenski? Why was he killed under Stalin's orders?

To be honest i do not know, i am currently searching the net but cant find much information.

So you don't know about Preobrazhenski.

What about Grigori Zinoviev, then?

Luís Henrique [/b]
of course i know about Zinoviev :D.
He was trialed for terrorist activities, i couldn't find his trial on the net though.
The following will be enough information i suppose:
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node99.htm...200000000000000 (http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node99.html#SECTION001031200000000000000)

Luís Henrique
29th December 2005, 19:41
Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 01:51 PM
of course i know about Zinoviev :D.
He was trialed for terrorist activities, i couldn't find his trial on the net though.
The following will be enough information i suppose:
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node99.htm...200000000000000 (http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node99.html#SECTION001031200000000000000)
Mikhail Tomsky?

Luís Henrique

Axel1917
29th December 2005, 21:28
You know, Lenin did call for Stalin's removal in his Last Testament.

Zeruzo
31st December 2005, 12:05
Originally posted by Luís Henrique+Dec 29 2005, 07:50 PM--> (Luís Henrique @ Dec 29 2005, 07:50 PM)
[email protected] 29 2005, 01:51 PM
of course i know about Zinoviev :D.
He was trialed for terrorist activities, i couldn't find his trial on the net though.
The following will be enough information i suppose:
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node99.htm...200000000000000 (http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node99.html#SECTION001031200000000000000)
Mikhail Tomsky?

Luís Henrique [/b]
Hey, i can answer your entire list. And there might be someone on that list that has been set to prison or execution, while being falsely accused but that doesn't mean Stalin's evil as you try to make it look.


You know, Lenin did call for Stalin's removal in his Last Testament.

I know that, i also know that only 1/4th of Lenin's brains were left at the time of writing and that sick people can be very cocky. Also the reasons he asked for Stalin's removal were entirely personal and had nothing to do with Stalin's qaulity's. In this same testament though Lenin calls Trotsky a bureaucrat which IS a negative point.

Luís Henrique
1st January 2006, 22:38
Hey, i can answer your entire list. And there might be someone on that list that has been set to prison or execution, while being falsely accused but that doesn't mean Stalin's evil as you try to make it look.

Stalin? Evil? Who said that? Let me put it clearly: Stalin was a reactionary, not an "evil man".

I guess you can answer my entire list. What you cannot do is to explain how the Bolshevik party managed to lead a revolution while its leadership was entirely composed by imperialist agents and other sell-outs.

Luís Henrique

Janus
1st January 2006, 23:54
Lenin's Testament criticized many of the top leaders at the time including Trotsky and Stalin. However, Lenin's criticism of Stalin wasn't entirely personal since he saw the danger of concentrating so much power in one individual who may not use that power with caution. Though Stalin was very capable adminstratively, his personality wasn't best suited for a general secretary and this is what Lenin was commenting on. Qualification for a job can also be judged by your personality. Characteristics such as intolerance, impoliteness, and capriciousness shouldn't belong to a general secretary.

Zeruzo
2nd January 2006, 12:58
Originally posted by Luís [email protected] 1 2006, 10:47 PM
Stalin? Evil? Who said that? Let me put it clearly: Stalin was a reactionary, not an "evil man".

I guess you can answer my entire list. What you cannot do is to explain how the Bolshevik party managed to lead a revolution while its leadership was entirely composed by imperialist agents and other sell-outs.

Luís Henrique
Imperialist agents... talking about Trotsky? Bukharin?
How can i respond to this statement when you dont underbuild it, i dont know WHAT i should reply to.... should i now explain why they were not imperialist agents and sell-outs? Is that what your expecting of me?


Lenin's Testament criticized many of the top leaders at the time including Trotsky and Stalin. However, Lenin's criticism of Stalin wasn't entirely personal since he saw the danger of concentrating so much power in one individual who may not use that power with caution. Though Stalin was very capable adminstratively, his personality wasn't best suited for a general secretary and this is what Lenin was commenting on. Qualification for a job can also be judged by your personality. Characteristics such as intolerance, impoliteness, and capriciousness shouldn't belong to a general secretary.

He never called Stalin intolerant... Arrogant, yes... that is what he was called...

Lenin:

Stalin is too rude and this defect, although quite tolerable in our midst and in dealing among us Communists, becomes intolerable in a Secretary-General. That is why I suggest that the comrades think about a way of removing Stalin from that post and appointing another man in his stead who in all other respects differs from Comrade Stalin in having only one advantage, namely, that of being more tolerant, more loyal, more polite and more considerate to the comrades, less capricious, etc. This circumstance may appear to be a negligible detail. But I think that from the standpoint of safeguards against a split and from the standpoint of what I wrote above about the relationship between Stalin and Trotsky it is not a [minor] detail, but it is a detail which can assume decisive importance.

Lenin

Taken down by L.F.
January 4, 1923

Stalin had been rude for his entire life and it actually helped out during WW2 that he was. Also it is a suggestion, not something that HAS to be done, it was all upon the party. During fair elections Trotsky's faction only got a small proportion of the votes. He also says that Trotsky was LESS capricious then Stalin, so calling Stalin capricious as a whole is merely altering Lenin's words (Same with the tolerance-part). It was also to prevent a split that had already occured anyway. But as i said, do keep in mind that a sick man where only 1/4th of his brains were left who had an argument with Stalin quite recently wrote it.

edit: I think he didn't write it, but at least he was quoted.

farleft
2nd January 2006, 15:21
Originally posted by Luís [email protected] 1 2006, 10:47 PM

Hey, i can answer your entire list. And there might be someone on that list that has been set to prison or execution, while being falsely accused but that doesn't mean Stalin's evil as you try to make it look.

Stalin? Evil? Who said that? Let me put it clearly: Stalin was a reactionary, not an "evil man".

I guess you can answer my entire list. What you cannot do is to explain how the Bolshevik party managed to lead a revolution while its leadership was entirely composed by imperialist agents and other sell-outs.

Luís Henrique
The Bolshevik party didn't lead the revolution, the kronstadt sailors did. The Bolsheviks high-jacked the revolution, then had the sailors killed because they thought Lenins "new economic policy" was a step back towards capitalism, they wanted to go straight to "end goal" communism.

Zeruzo
2nd January 2006, 15:28
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 03:30 PM
The Bolshevik party didn't lead the revolution, the kronstadt sailors did. The Bolsheviks high-jacked the revolution, then had the sailors killed because they thought Lenins "new economic policy" was a step back towards capitalism, they wanted to go straight to "end goal" communism.
Merely showing how stupid they are the NEP was created for the material conditions of the USSR. And as far as my knowledge goes the revolution started in Petrograd. Also how can the NEP be a step backwards when Russia was a Feudal country?

farleft
2nd January 2006, 15:38
Russian feudalism ended in 1917.

It was 4 years later that the sailors got pissed off at the Bolsheviks.

Luís Henrique
2nd January 2006, 17:33
Imperialist agents... talking about Trotsky? Bukharin?

In principle, I am talking about the whole Bolshevik leadership, except Lenin and Stalin. Most others were killed, usually under the "justification" that they were traitors.


Is that what your expecting of me?

I am expecting you to point who, if any, of the Bolshevik leaders in 1917 weren't imperialist or police stooges. As to this far, you have already implied that Bukharin, Trotsky and Zinoviev were counter-revolutionaries. So, to this moment, according to you, we have two revolutionaries (Lenin and Stalin) and three reactionaires in the Bolshevik leadership. Unless you can turn the vote, I fear that the 1917 revolution hasn't happened at all.

Luís Henrique

Luís Henrique
2nd January 2006, 17:38
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 03:30 PM
The Bolshevik party didn't lead the revolution, the kronstadt sailors did. The Bolsheviks high-jacked the revolution, then had the sailors killed because they thought Lenins "new economic policy" was a step back towards capitalism, they wanted to go straight to "end goal" communism.
First, my argument is against Zeruzo, whom I suppose believes the Bolshevik party lead the Revolution. I am challenging him to explain how a party whose leadership, in his opinion, was composed majoritarily by imperialist stooges could, again in his opinion, lead a Revolution.

Second, may I ask you where from did you take your peculiar interpretation of the November Revolution? Any sources, articles, books, to back it?

Luís Henrique

Zeruzo
7th January 2006, 08:33
Ohw, i completely forgot about you... i'll respond tommorow!