Prisons during a revolution.

[Body Count]

I was reading a topic on the politics section regarding American prisons, and it reminded me of an issue that I had been pondering before : During a time of revolutionary warfare, what is to become/what has become of the prisons and the prisoners they hold?

There probably is some documented cases of this during maybe the Cuban uprising or during the Russian civil war or something, but I want to focus on a hypothetical scenario in America. This is because 1) This country may be the richest and most industrialized ever and 2) We have more prisoners then anywhere on earth at the time and maybe ever in existence.

I mean, when shit REALLY hits the fan, what will the American bourgeois do with the two million plus people they have locked away? I couldn't even seeing them being heavily guarded, let alone fed and taken care of.

More importantly, assuming we would all be on the marxist side of the fighting, would we have any specific goals regarding prisons and inmates? Would it be in our best interest to try and free SOME of these men (Mostly non-violent I'm guessing)? Do they even have a "class" according to Marx? I'm guessing that many men in prison would be willing to take up arms against capitalism.

[JKP]

We must emamcipate them; you shouldn't need to think about it.

[Seeker]

What about rapists and serial killers? Mafia gangsters (the ultimate free marketeers) and white collar criminals (ethicaly challenged even among cappies)?

I think the question is a bit more difficult than JKP sugests.

It is a hard choice to make, deciding who's crimes can be attributed to oppresive conditions and who has suffered to the point of being beyond redemption.

Before we try and reinvent the wheel, is there any literature on the topic?

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 06:17 PM
What about rapists and serial killers? Mafia gangsters (the ultimate free marketeers) and white collar criminals (ethicaly challenged even among cappies)?

I think the question is a bit more difficult than JKP sugests.

It is a hard choice to make, deciding who's crimes can be attributed to oppresive conditions and who has suffered to the point of being beyond redemption.

Before we try and reinvent the wheel, is there any literature on the topic?
that would take so many resources and so many years to look at every prisoner's record and find out who did what. maybe some of the more well known serial killers would be executed. but overall the only realistic thing to do would be to free everyone.

[Noah]

that would take so many resources and so many years to look at every prisoner's record and find out who did what. maybe some of the more well known serial killers would be executed. but overall the only realistic thing to do would be to free everyone.


I don't agree, I think it is the responsibility of the people leading the revolution (or the workers) to keep the prisons in order and then when the country is running again smoothly again and become the worker's state then the prisoners should get a re-trial.

You can't just release a well-known thug, who beats elderly women for a few pounds into the revolution, they might just take it as an opportunity to re-commit the crimes and not get caught.

Noah.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 08:54 PM

that would take so many resources and so many years to look at every prisoner's record and find out who did what. maybe some of the more well known serial killers would be executed. but overall the only realistic thing to do would be to free everyone.


I don't agree, I think it is the responsibility of the people leading the revolution (or the workers) to keep the prisons in order and then when the country is running again smoothly again and become the worker's state then the prisoners should get a re-trial.

You can't just release a well-known thug, who beats elderly women for a few pounds into the revolution, they might just take it as an opportunity to re-commit the crimes and not get caught.

Noah.
thats impossible. you could not track down witnesses and get evidence for every prisoner to have a re trial. most of the prisons are filled with people on drug related charges. these people would have to be realeased. well known serial killers could/should be tried again and shot. but for the most part it would be hard to do this.

re commit crimes? not get caught? are you trying to say that our new "system" would not work? in my case, i dont believe in prisons. therfore everyone would be let go. those who commited violent crimes against people, such as murder and rape would be tried and executed.

[Jazzy]

How would they be able to get tried and executed if you let them all go? That doesn't make any sense.....I say leave them all in there, take good care of them until everything is situated and then put them through another trial.......if you let them all go there's no telling who would wind up where and doing what! How do you think you'd feel if you let them all go and then some of them turned around and were raping kids and shit?! I don't believe in prisons fully, some people do need to be locked away, some are too far gone and if you don't believe that then you're very naive and living in a fantasy world, but a majority of the people in the US prisons are African American men and it is no secret that the reason why a majority of them are there is because of a politically motivated conspiracy on the African American community! But back to what I originally said, they should be left in there and we as the people could take good care of them and make sure that they aren't being mistreated and getting proper medical attention until things get smoothed over enough so that cases can be reviewed and if need be, another trial can happen! As far as I can tell that is the only way we could go about it and protect people from violent criminals, anyways, if there will be enough people for the Revolution to occur, then there will be enough to make sure that the prison situations are handled in a swift and sure fashion!

[which doctor]

Prisoners are political prisoners. Their ideologies and actions go against the official ideologies of the state so they are imprisoned. They should be let free, if they recommit a crime they shall be rehabilitated.

[PsychOtiC]

This is a complicated question...

There would be those who were not righteously convicted, and those would have to be freed. Then, there would be those who killed in self-defense but still serving life...

My opinion is that they should all be left in there to serve the sentence they were sentenced on and that's it.
One change though: Those sentenced to death should be re-sentenced to life in prison...

And that's it, fairly simple - leave them in there. WIthout special procedures, research or complications.

[Jazzy]

Not all prisoners are political prisoners and not all criminals can be rehabilitated, like I already said, if people really believe that EVERYONE can be rehabilitated, they are naive as hell and have no knowledge of the real world and experience with criminals! Also like I already stated, the US prison system is over flowing with African American males and that is quite obviously a race motivated conspiracy but on the other hand, their are people in that system of all races who NEED to be in there to protect the people! How would you feel if they let Charles Manson and Richard Ramirez out, you cannot sit there and say that a man who cut a womans eyes out as a sacrifice to Satan (Ramirez) can be rehabilitated! I'm sticking with my original theory.........because none of you all are making any kind of sense, at least not common sense.......

[violencia.Proletariat]

How would they be able to get tried and executed if you let them all go?

when they commit a crime again, they will be caught. most people in prison arent there for things that would require execution in communism.


and then put them through another trial

thats IMPOSSIBLE. trials take a lot of work. witnesses might no longer be alive. evidence might be tainted, etc. sure we could give them all a retrial but they WOULD NOT be fair.


How do you think you'd feel if you let them all go and then some of them turned around and were raping kids and shit

then we catch them, try them, and execute them. with community control after a revolution, things like this would not go unknown for as long.


But back to what I originally said, they should be left in there and we as the people could take good care of them

i guess you dont understand the concept of prison. IT's NOT A FUCKING COUNTRY CLUB


and make sure that they aren't being mistreated and getting proper medical attention until things get smoothed over enough so that cases can be reviewed and if need be, another trial can happen

like i said. this can never happen. its impossible to do that. even if it were possible it would take most of a communities resources to do this. this would probably lead to a collapse of revolution because instead of feeding people and securing housing we are retrying thousands of people who didnt need to be in there in the first place.


As far as I can tell that is the only way we could go about it and protect people from violent criminals, anyways, if there will be enough people for the Revolution to occur, then there will be enough to make sure that the prison situations are handled in a swift and sure fashion!

what makes you think that the people in the prison would be taken care of in your revolution? well they must be here for a reason so lets not give them any kind of luxuries that the rest of the community has, even if they are innocent. we must make sure we have well armed guards who shoot to kill because the prisoners might try to have an uprising since the revolution occured. hey lets just shoot ever last one of them and start over.

:rolleyes:

[PsychOtiC]

There's no point wasting time trying to determine what each of them did or make a psychological analasys to see whether or not they can be rehabilitated...
...just keep them in there.

Oh! And not waste ammunition on them either... :P

[Jazzy]

All these different ideas on how the revolution would work is the exact reason why we aren't ready for one, damn........

[PsychOtiC]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 09:04 PM
All these different ideas on how the revolution would work is the exact reason why we aren't ready for one, damn........
who leads the revolution decides on these things...

People cannot work like one, because, as we've seen in this simple example (the topic) people have differences in opinion. That's why, for a revolution, people need a strong leader...

[bombeverything]

Originally posted by PsychOtiC+Dec 28 2005, 09:09 PM--> (PsychOtiC @ Dec 28 2005, 09:09 PM)
[email protected] 28 2005, 09:04 PM
All these different ideas on how the revolution would work is the exact reason why we aren't ready for one, damn........
who leads the revolution decides on these things...

People cannot work like one, because, as we've seen in this simple example (the topic) people have differences in opinion. That's why, for a revolution, people need a strong leader...[/b]

Why would a difference in opinions necessitate political authority? Promoting (rather than supressing) difference is necessary for the growth of individuality.

[Jazzy]

Individuality is one thing but in matters such as the prison system or lack of one it becomes a matter of the people, not the individual.......that's why I said that we aren't ready for a revolution because everybody has a difference of opinion on what would happen with the prisoners and what if the revolution happens, what's going to occur with all these different opinions, hell I'd think yet another revolution.......

[Severian]

It's common, during revolutions, for prisoners to be released en masse.

Some might say, that all kinds of vile serial killers and whatnot would be released along with workers who were wrongly convicted or excessively punished. Well, yeah. But shit happens during revolutions.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 08:24 AM
It's common, during revolutions, for prisoners to be released en masse.

Some might say, that all kinds of vile serial killers and whatnot would be released along with workers who were wrongly convicted or excessively punished. Well, yeah. But shit happens during revolutions.
exactly

[bombeverything]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 11:25 PM
Individuality is one thing but in matters such as the prison system or lack of one it becomes a matter of the people, not the individual.......that's why I said that we aren't ready for a revolution because everybody has a difference of opinion on what would happen with the prisoners and what if the revolution happens, what's going to occur with all these different opinions, hell I'd think yet another revolution.......

This is why we must be organised. I understand what you are trying to say but people will always have different opinions. Are you suggesting that everyone will have to agree on everything if there is to be a revolution? Petty differences aside, most of us agree on the fundamental issues -- which is the main thing. What I mean is that there will always be difference, and things would be quite boring and static if this wasn't the case. This is how we progress as a society.

[Noah]

****It's common, during revolutions, for prisoners to be released en masse.****

Just because it is common does not make it justifiable or something we should support.

***Some might say, that all kinds of vile serial killers and whatnot would be released along with workers who were wrongly convicted or excessively punished. Well, yeah. But shit happens during revolutions.***

You can't just say 'Shit Happens'. I can just say people die because of capitalism because 'Shit Happens', if you release a man who mugs old women on the street or a rapist again, then the 'Shit is happening' because of your support for their release.

I don't see the logic in 'releasing en masse' for a number of reasons.

1) How is it justified to see a rapist walk free on the street, without serving a legitimate sentence? Although he ruined the lives of one or many women, if anything this man should be kept in prison and then rehabilitated, if you release him you'll probably end up arresting him again because he is still in the same mindset so really you're doing him a favour.

2) It is a known fact that some people after their sentence recommit, imagine how it will be if they are released at a very early stage of their sentence or half way, they'll still (or may) be in that criminal state of mind.

[PsychOtiC]

I agree with Noah...

You can't just let them all run free...

That's why they should be left in the prisons until they serve their normal sentence...
...A revolution happening doesn't mean they didn't commit/are not guilty for the crimes they are in prison for...

[Severian]

My point is, revolutions usually don't happen "logically" or according to anyone's plan. If social change could always or even mostly happen that way, revolutions wouldn't be necessary.

[Noah]

My point is, revolutions usually don't happen "logically" or according to anyone's plan. If social change could always or even mostly happen that way, revolutions wouldn't be necessary.

I agree with you, revolutions never go to plan because you can not accurately predict the circumstances that may arise. But as for the jailed it should not be an opportunity where they can just run free because it may put us in the same situation as Iraq, when the Americans invaded everything got looted (and basically trashed) and people were being ransommed (including my grandad), i'm not saying they were all prison people but that's the sense it may give to everyone and this has more negative effects than positive.

During the revolution no doubt it will be hectic but we still need to be logical and look at mistakes of the past and plan from there, even if we know that most things probably won't go to plan.

[Jazzy]

That's another point I was going to make, during the revolution everything WILL BE HECTIC so how do you think in the admist of all that, letting the prisoners go would be a good idea?! And in the midst of all that chaos how would you be able to track down someone who commited a crime again, that someone who wouldn't have had the oppurtunity to recommit the crime if we hadn't let him out?! That's what I was trying to say....

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 09:43 AM
But as for the jailed it should not be an opportunity where they can just run free because it may put us in the same situation as Iraq, when the Americans invaded everything got looted (and basically trashed) and people were being ransommed (including my grandad), i'm not saying they were all prison people but that's the sense it may give to everyone and this has more negative effects than positive.
I have to wonder if Iraq's sky-high crime rate is actually more due to the disintegration of the old army and security forces. A lot of unemployed, armed men...army deserters have always been the worst pillagers.

And the security forces were experienced kidnappers.

[Noah]

I have to wonder if Iraq's sky-high crime rate is actually more due to the disintegration of the old army A lot of unemployed, armed men...army deserters have always been the worst pillagers.

I can tell you the majority of sources that say the Iraqi army was well trained is very overblown, the Iraqi army was nothing special everyone in Iraqi knew that, the majority of men didn't want to be in the army and wanted to lead 'normal' lives, however, the people were afraid of the more elite soldiers. All the males in my family got conscripted into that army and when the Americans came the majority just dispersed and didn't fight, actually even before the Americans came the Iraqi army was very corrupt and the majority of soldiers hated Saddam (but obviously couldn't say it) and the Generals took bribes (my dad bribed one of them to tip him off on his execution date so he could escape), the army was bound to fall apart.

I agree that some in the army may have started raiding shops and taking the wealth but from what I heard from my relatives in Iraq it was VERY widespread, their nextdoor neighbours who were all women stole lots of chairs from a restaurant. I agree though that the disintergration of the army also probably was a factor of the looting. Another problem was that it wasn't just the army that could get weapons, they were very cheap and very easy to buy, so that could be another reason why.

I just think we should take precautions because we know there will be havoc and probably rises in crime rates, who knows maybe during the revolution in some countries, the army will fall apart and then you've got criminals and unemployed armed men.

The looting in Iraq was massive and even if a fraction of what happened in Iraq happened in the revolution, it could really ruin things for the revolution and the people who support it, so the point I was trying to make was to keep everything that may be a danger to the revolution and the people, locked up and kept away until all the havoc has finished.

[Seeker]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 09:18 PM
People cannot work like one, because, as we've seen in this simple example (the topic) people have differences in opinion. That's why, for a revolution, people need a strong leader...
It is also why people will rebel against leadership. This conflict can be resolved by setting democratic systems in place.