Russia marks Stalin anniversary

[WUOrevolt]

Russia marks Stalin anniversary

Stalin is still revered in parts of the former Soviet Union
A new statue of Joseph Stalin has been unveiled in the southern Russian town of Digora to mark the 126th anniversary of the Soviet-era dictator's birth.
In Moscow, Russian Communist Party supporters braved wintry weather to visit Stalin's grave in Red Square.

And commemorations were held in Stalin's birthplace, Gori in Georgia.

A number of monuments to the former leader have been erected in Russian towns in recent years, drawing protests from human rights activists.

More than three dozen residents of the North Ossetian town of Digora turned out for the unveiling of the 5m (16ft) bust of Stalin, which sits on a granite obelisk.


Stalin's remains are buried at the foot of the Kremlin wall in Moscow

Many carried the Soviet flag with its hammer and sickle, and children wore Soviet-style red kerchiefs and saluted, news agencies reported.

"Under Stalin, every year we waited for improvements and every year there were improvements. It's a fact," the sculptor, Mikhail Dzboyev, said.

But human rights activists criticised them for honouring someone who "stands for tyranny, dictatorship and bloodshed".

"The decision to erect a monument in North Ossetia shows that the country has not drawn lessons from history," human rights activist Alexander Bord was quoted by Russia's Interfax news agency as saying.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4551124.stm

[redstar2000]

Quite so.

Compared to the present hellish despotism of private capital in Russia, Stalin looks "better" with every passing decade.

This is the "paradox" of "benevolent" despotism.

A half-century from now, there will be similar celebrations in Cuba surrounding Castro...because by then Cuba will be a capitalist hell-hole of one kind or another and people will "remember Fidel" with genuine affection and nostalgia for a time when things actually improved from one year to another.

And probably the same thing will happen in Venezuela around Chavez.

The "down-side" of political nostalgia is that it usually doesn't mean anything for the present, much less the future.

Are there any serious communist revolutionaries in Russia today?

Maybe a few...I don't really know. What the Russians have today is "robber baron capitalism"...like the U.S. in the last decade of the 19th century. It will unhappily be a long time before Russian workers begin to develop a real communist consciousness.

From the standpoint of a typical human life-span, history usually moves painfully slow.

But nevertheless, as Galileo said in a different context, it still moves.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Guerrilla22]

The fact is Stalin implemented the ideas Lenin wanted. I'm no Stalinst, but one must admit that the man did indeed follow the path of Marxism/Lenism. The Soviet leaders after Stalin were revionist, bent on turing the USSR into something its ideological founders never meant it to be.

[celticfire]

That's a profound and real truth, redstar2000. And, I see no commies coming out of Russia any time soon (unless you count the Russian Maoist Party -- who align with MIM, and hoards of cardboard "communists").

[Zeruzo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 11:21 PM
Quite so.

Compared to the present hellish despotism of private capital in Russia, Stalin looks "better" with every passing decade.

This is the "paradox" of "benevolent" despotism.

A half-century from now, there will be similar celebrations in Cuba surrounding Castro...because by then Cuba will be a capitalist hell-hole of one kind or another and people will "remember Fidel" with genuine affection and nostalgia for a time when things actually improved from one year to another.

And probably the same thing will happen in Venezuela around Chavez.

The "down-side" of political nostalgia is that it usually doesn't mean anything for the present, much less the future.

Are there any serious communist revolutionaries in Russia today?

Maybe a few...I don't really know. What the Russians have today is "robber baron capitalism"...like the U.S. in the last decade of the 19th century. It will unhappily be a long time before Russian workers begin to develop a real communist consciousness.

From the standpoint of a typical human life-span, history usually moves painfully slow.

But nevertheless, as Galileo said in a different context, it still moves.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif
Then why are Kruchev, Brezhnev and Gorbatsjev not commemorated?

edit: never mind about gorbatsjev, he's not dead jet :P.

[YKTMX]

Humbug!

Lots of people are dead, but no one is more dead than Stalin.


Leave the bloodstained bastard in his grave.

[viva le revolution]

A tribute to a revolutionary and great Marxist-leninist Comrade Stalin.

[Master Che]

Originally posted by viva le [email protected] 23 2005, 04:10 PM
A tribute to a revolutionary and great Marxist-leninist Comrade Stalin.
Couldent of said it better myself, today i'm wearing a shirt with stalin on it as a tribute.

[Body Count]

All I can say is good job industrializing the country and sticking up to America.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by Master [email protected] 23 2005, 05:58 PM
Couldent of said it better myself, today i'm wearing a shirt with stalin on it as a tribute.
Ah - I need one of such to complete my collection.

I have T-shirts of Lenin, Che, Fidel, Mao, Rosa Luxemburg, Trotsky, Allende, Lula, Angela Davis, Ho Chi Minh...

Gee, I have a T-shirt of Georges Marchais!

But I seem unable to ever find a Stalin T-shirt... who makes and sells that stuff? Do they have an internet site?

Luís Henrique

[WUOrevolt]

Why would you want to wear a Stalin t shirt?

[Master Che]

Originally posted by Luís Henrique+Dec 23 2005, 06:11 PM--> (Luís Henrique @ Dec 23 2005, 06:11 PM)
Master [email protected] 23 2005, 05:58 PM
Couldent of said it better myself, today i'm wearing a shirt with stalin on it as a tribute.
Ah - I need one of such to complete my collection.

I have T-shirts of Lenin, Che, Fidel, Mao, Rosa Luxemburg, Trotsky, Allende, Lula, Angela Davis, Ho Chi Minh...

Gee, I have a T-shirt of Georges Marchais!

But I seem unable to ever find a Stalin T-shirt... who makes and sells that stuff? Do they have an internet site?

Luís Henrique [/b]
I got mines at ebay, search under "Stalin shirt" and you should find pages of them.

[Goatse]

I did so, and I found this:

http://www.e-orchard.co.uk/corchard/blackdesign/bo/bo6.jpg

I want it. Only 7 quid!

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 02:24 PM
Why would you want to wear a Stalin t shirt?
He was quite the democratic fellow, and I do believe that some his policies attempted to override the Leninist concept of "democratic centralism". I suggest you read this (http://eserver.org/clogic/2005/furr.html).

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by Diego Armando+Dec 24 2005, 01:43 AM--> (Diego Armando @ Dec 24 2005, 01:43 AM)
[email protected] 23 2005, 02:24 PM
Why would you want to wear a Stalin t shirt?
He was quite the democratic fellow, and I do believe that some his policies attempted to override the Leninist concept of "democratic centralism". I suggest you read this (http://eserver.org/clogic/2005/furr.html). [/b]
Wow, but I still wouldnt wear a Stalin shirt, and would have preferred Trotsky, as would most of the people Russia, im sure.

[redchrisfalling]

This aniversery should be a day of mourning not a good damn celebration. That bastard Stalin was quite possibly the worst thing to ever happen to history. He highjacked the party, took control against Lenins wishes, exiled and killed the rightful leader(Trotsky), salaughtered millions of people, ground every communist princple in to the ground and had the balls to continue his "cult of personality" campaign, even though the people hated him. I want to piss on that tyrants grave, whoever had the idea of honoring him with a statue should seriously re-examine what it means to be a communist.

[LA GUERRA OLVIDADA]

I thought Stalin was horrible to all Russians and he ran a Commie genocide on them. Some Russians still like Stalin? nooooo can't be!!

[chebol]

I'm more worried about the tone of Redstar's post. Doesn't sound like someone who believes that socialism is possible. Sounds more like cynical defeatism- the enemy of every revolutionary movement.

As for Stalin, well, yes, things have got worse since the return of capitalism. This, at least, ought to give the State Capitalist shibboleth-worshippers cause to reflect...

[More Fire for the People]

This aniversery should be a day of mourning not a good damn celebration.
Why, at the time both Russians and the international proletariat enjoyed his good leadership.


That bastard Stalin was quite possibly the worst thing to ever happen to history. He highjacked the party, took control against Lenins wishes, exiled and killed the rightful leader(Trotsky), salaughtered millions of people, ground every communist princple in to the ground and had the balls to continue his "cult of personality" campaign, even though the people hated him.
What kind of bullshit is this?
Stalin was elected by the Party, Lenin had no say-so other than his vote which he approved of Stalin and in fact only lamented over Stalin being incredibly rude. Trotsky on the other hand had advocate turning the unions into militaries with an authoritarian hierrarchy and the invasion of Western Europe. Today, there remains no proof in either statistics or graves that millions of people died — most evidence suggest that a few hundred thousand people died in a natural famine. I would say he kept the stay as a "good Leninist" even betraying the fucked up principle of "democratic centralism" in favour of proletarian democracy. The cult of personality that followed him was a result of Leninism — you can't have any form of centralization without paternalistic shroud. I suggest you read the like I posted or talk to a Russian who lived in Russia prior to 1956.

[WUOrevolt]

Most Russians hate Stalin, like my best friend who was born in the Soviet Union. He says that after Lenin died and Stalin took over, the Soviet Union wne tinto decline for then next 50 or so years. Lenin wanted Trotsky to take power after his death, but his will was "lost".

[ReD_ReBeL]

The Ukraine Famine was also enhanced by Stalin's fierce collectivazation, he noticed People dying of hunger but still collected every poor peasants food and wouldent stop collecting till he had reached the quota. The famine probably was natural but Stalin made it become much worse.

[More Fire for the People]

God dammit people, did you not read the article I posted? Party leaders aren't deities! They can't stop famines and make utopias! Now Stalin did try within his means to democratize the Soviet Union and increase the living standards (life expectancy and quality of life went up).

[ReD_ReBeL]

living standards and life expectancy went up wen Saddam Hussein took power and also when Hitler took power, but they also where built up of opression and violence just as Stalin was. so do you support Hitler and Saddam? a man being labelled a 'communist' is not enough to like this man. as they say "actions speak louder than words"

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 08:29 PM
living standards and life expectancy went up wen Saddam Hussein took power and also when Hitler took power, but they also where built up of opression and violence just as Stalin was. so do you support Hitler and Saddam? a man being labelled a 'communist' is not enough to like this man. as they say "actions speak louder than words"
If you read the fucking article I posted you would agree with me that Stalin was not violent or oppressive.

[ReD_ReBeL]

how do u not know this may be Stalinist propaganda?

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 08:54 PM
how do u not know this may be Stalinist propaganda?
Because I read the article, now I have yet to check the sources but the author does give a detailed account of his sources. He uses primary sources when he can and only uses secondary sources when he must. He tries to look at Stalin in a new, historical, perspective rather than "a great leader" or "a villain". If you read it, you would see where he criticizes Stalinist and Anti-Stalinist for claiming that Stalin had godlike powers when in fact he was often at the mercy of the politbureau and party.

[redchrisfalling]

[QUOTE]Diego Armando Posted on Dec 24 2005, 01:34 AM

QUOTE
This aniversery should be a day of mourning not a good damn celebration.


Why, at the time both Russians and the international proletariat enjoyed his good leadership.


QUOTE
That bastard Stalin was quite possibly the worst thing to ever happen to history. He highjacked the party, took control against Lenins wishes, exiled and killed the rightful leader(Trotsky), salaughtered millions of people, ground every communist princple in to the ground and had the balls to continue his "cult of personality" campaign, even though the people hated him.


What kind of bullshit is this?
Stalin was elected by the Party, Lenin had no say-so other than his vote which he approved of Stalin and in fact only lamented over Stalin being incredibly rude. Trotsky on the other hand had advocate turning the unions into militaries with an authoritarian hierrarchy and the invasion of Western Europe. Today, there remains no proof in either statistics or graves that millions of people died — most evidence suggest that a few hundred thousand people died in a natural famine. I would say he kept the stay as a "good Leninist" even betraying the fucked up principle of "democratic centralism" in favour of proletarian democracy. The cult of personality that followed him was a result of Leninism — you can't have any form of centralization without paternalistic shroud. I suggest you read the like I posted or talk to a Russian who lived in Russia prior to 1956.

I'm not even going to dignify that with a response you flaming retard. His leadership was anything but good and international proletariats hated him. HE WAS NOT A COMMUNIST, he was a good damn materialistic, totalitarian.

[More Fire for the People]

I'm not even going to dignify that with a response you flaming retard. His leadership was anything but good and international proletariats hated him. HE WAS NOT A COMMUNIST, he was a good damn materialistic, totalitarian.
I will forget that you resorted to insulting me rather than engage in factual debate but then I ask you, using sources, prove that Stalin was a "totalitarian materialist" and hated by the international proletariat at the time (which I agree this point has some merit as he often neglected other parties).

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 08:34 PM
I'm more worried about the tone of Redstar's post. Doesn't sound like someone who believes that socialism is possible. Sounds more like cynical defeatism- the enemy of every revolutionary movement.

As for Stalin, well, yes, things have got worse since the return of capitalism. This, at least, ought to give the State Capitalist shibboleth-worshippers cause to reflect...
It wasn't possible...as was plainly demonstrated by the "New Economic Policy" formulated by Lenin (not Stalin).

Further, it may be legitimately argued that state monopoly capitalism is a more humane form of primitive capital accumulation than ordinary capitalism. If you read accounts of 19th century working class life in the United States or in western Europe, Stalin's Russia or Mao's China doesn't look so bad after all.

If, as some of the other posters to this thread have implied, one wishes to suggest that nostalgia is no substitute for a real understanding of the Stalin era, I have no problem with that.

Despotisms are both "nasty" and "nice"...and a Russian peasant in the USSR was probably not much better off than his great grandfather under serfdom. Unless he moved to an urban area and got a job in one of the thousands of new factories built in the Stalin era.

Which is, as I understand it, just about what half of the Russian peasantry did.

I have always argued on this board that the prominent figures of 20th century Leninism were neither "saints" nor "arch-fiends"...including Lenin himself.

And I certainly don't condemn the nostalgia of older Russians for the Stalin era...back then, for example, you could actually survive on an old-age pension.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[chebol]

Redstar, the tone I was referring to was one set in the future tense. I am fully aware of the limitations that beset the russian revolution. I was responding to your coments on Cuba and Veenzuela (and, by inference, every other coming 'little' revolution of the C21st).

Your points regarding the relative humanity of state monopoly capitalism v. C19 capitalism don't stand up, I'm afraid. Despite the distortions, the soviet and chinese states were formed in revolutions by use of mass popular power. It is this element, rather than 'state monopoly capitalism' that created the framework for greater human worth in these societies.

The point is exactly this. "State Monopoly Capitalism" is not inherently more humane than any other kind of capitalism. To suggest so, without evidence, is in many ways to act as an apologist for capitalism. Can you show evidence of state capitalist countries (other than those socialist or former-socialist countries that are given that title) that support your argument, and whose humanitarian face can be ascribed to the form of capitalist control, rather than social forces in motion (national democratic revolutions etc)?

On Stalin, while I accept that many people feel nostalgia for the 'old days', and often rightly so, it is a worry, in the long term, that Stalin is the face of these fond memories.

On saints and fiends- I agree. There were none (and there are none now). But some people have been responsible for atrocities that others have not. Stalin stands accused, and there is little evidence to absolve him.

[Scars]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 01:48 AM
Most Russians hate Stalin, like my best friend who was born in the Soviet Union. He says that after Lenin died and Stalin took over, the Soviet Union wne tinto decline for then next 50 or so years. Lenin wanted Trotsky to take power after his death, but his will was "lost".
Actually a survey was done last year and it showed that 50% of Russians said that Stalin was a 'mostly progressive' figure and 40% said that if they could have Stalin back ruling Russia today, they would.

He's a national hero in Georgia and there are massive parades in Gori (his place of birth) every year. In addition the Stalin Museum and Stalin's birthplace are still frequented by millions of Georgians every year.

As for Trotsky...well, read the whole of Lenin's last testiment before you start claiming that we should have been Lenin's successor. He calls Trotsky arrogant and self righteous. For instance, before Lenin's death it was Trotsky who was mos active in manufacturing a cult of personality based mainly around his work in the formation of the Red Army. If I could have picked I probably would have gone for Alexandra Kollontai, who was definately one of the most progressive of the 'Old Bolsheviks'.

[Hiero]

He says that after Lenin died and Stalin took over, the Soviet Union wne tinto decline for then next 50 or so years.

Decline? Well your friend is a idiot. You only have to read basic history to know the Soviet Union grew during Stalin's leadership.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by Luís Henrique+Dec 23 2005, 01:11 PM--> (Luís Henrique @ Dec 23 2005, 01:11 PM)
Master [email protected] 23 2005, 05:58 PM
Couldent of said it better myself, today i'm wearing a shirt with stalin on it as a tribute.
Ah - I need one of such to complete my collection.

I have T-shirts of Lenin, Che, Fidel, Mao, Rosa Luxemburg, Trotsky, Allende, Lula, Angela Davis, Ho Chi Minh...

Gee, I have a T-shirt of Georges Marchais!

But I seem unable to ever find a Stalin T-shirt... who makes and sells that stuff? Do they have an internet site?

Luís Henrique [/b]
sorry if your sarcasm went over my head, but are you serious?

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 06:59 AM
sorry if your sarcasm went over my head, but are you serious?
Do you really think I (or someone else) own a Georges Marchais T-shirt? ;)

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

So let's talk about Russian revolutionaries.

I remember the following, in alphabetic order:

Andreev-Ovseenko
Bubnov
Bukharin
Frumze
Joffe
Kamenev
Kollontai
Krestinski
Ordjonikidze
Preobrazhenski
Piatakov
Radek
Rykov
Sosnovsky
Tomsky
Trotsky
Zinoviev

Who were them? What happened to them? Why?

Luís Henrique

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 01:48 AM
Most Russians hate Stalin, like my best friend who was born in the Soviet Union. He says that after Lenin died and Stalin took over, the Soviet Union wne tinto decline for then next 50 or so years. Lenin wanted Trotsky to take power after his death, but his will was "lost".
Most Russians hate Stalin? You just made that up. That's nonsense. And I've never heard of a Russian trotskyite. Your friend's opinion is just that, and the lie about "Lenin's Will" has been thoroughly refuted. Next.


how do u not know this may be Stalinist propaganda?
How do I not know that you may be George W. Bush in disguise? :rolleyes:


I'm not even going to dignify that with a response you flaming retard. His leadership was anything but good and international proletariats hated him. HE WAS NOT A COMMUNIST, he was a good damn materialistic, totalitarian.
"International proletariats" hated him? What the hell does that mean? And communists ARE materialists, you just don't know what materialism is because you never read even a word of marxist theory.