>nato

[Kapitan Andrey]

France and Germany have rebelled against yankee will,it is interesting,could >nato< crush down???

Russia, Germany and France could cooperate a new alliance!!! YES!!! That will be COOL!!! :cool:

[lacanchita]

hmmm, Kapitan Andrey, good point. I think that NATO could break down, especially given the fact that the reason for its creation in the first place is no longer around. It has not since been given a real mandate and I therefore dont think that it has any reason to remain. Plus the US is obviously not to happy with the current result,and given that all states have an equal vote (and veto I think) and its' not weighted, they can't push the members around like they can in other IOs. So maybe they will just walk away??

[this is copied and pasted from the "US boycott on the French"....]

[Kapitan Andrey]

And what do you think about the perspective of new coalition between Russia, Germany and France? ;)

[lacanchita]

I think that it could work. Obviously none of them alone is strong enough, but there is power and strength in numbers. Plus I think that it could do Russia some good, especially for the people. They need some cheering up-some time to regain the strength they once had.
And as for Germany and France, Germany is I think, stronger, so it could be a good alliance. The other thing is that Germany is now sitting in on the UN security council, so that means that Russia, France (China) and Germany are all there, against GB and the US....could turn out very interesting....I wonder if they take suggestions....:o

[kylie]

sorry, but nato isnt about to collapse, nor is there about to be a NWO.
note how none have actually said 'no this is about oil, its wrong'. all still agree on the fundamentals, and all signed up to 1441. all three recognise that the USA is gaining more and more economic power, this is their way of letting the US know they are still here. in the end all will back the US and UK, either after realising the US wont give them a bigger cut, or the US bribing them through other means.
its best to remember, france germany and russia are still capitalist imperialists, out for whatever they can get. they are still run by the ruling class, still exploit their workers, and still offer inequality to the masses.
if they were to allie, it wouldnt be a good thing, it would be yet anoher power to fight.


(Edited by feoric at 8:29 am on Feb. 25, 2003)

[Pete]

Feoric bascially said what I was going to say. Those nations may help shift the balance of power, but in they end they are still our enemies and are only acting to keep their neo-colonial/neo-imperialist interests in the region stable.

[lacanchita]

Ya, I agree with you two. However, I dont quite agree on the US gaining economic power. It is only since 1999 that it even somewhat began to turn its economic downslide. And since 9/11 it has once again began to slow significantly economically speaking. They are putting too much money into military and not enough into technological growth, which could prove to be a terrible mistake. Even if you look at the stock market, the Dow has been below 10, 000 for quite some time, and generally speaking the entire NYST is in a speculation bubble which means that at any time it may collapse bringing in another perhaps another depression (although not as bad as 1929-obviously). With their focus on military strength and not technology, Japan, Germany and even Brazil to an extent have been able to make significant strides in this area. Finally, let us not forget that the US has the largest trade deficit in the world. The only way that it has managed to maintain some sort of balance is largely due to the Japanese who have bought huge amounts of its economy (ie, real estate, bonds, stocks...). If this trend should retreat for what ever reason, the American trade deficit might prove to large to deal with and then the state would have to step in and fix that, meaning raising interest rates, taxes and other methods of attracting foreign investment.
I do however agree about Germany, France and Russia being neo-capitalist-imperialist, and no doubt that if they were in the US shoes, they might be doing the same.

[Kez]

this is EXACTLY what Lenin said close to a century ago (in "Imperialism the highest form of capitalism), when against the Kautskyist idea that the capitalists will unite, there is an inherant split between each capitalist country and they wont unite even to dispell socialism.

FUCK YOU KAUTSKY YA BALD ****! :):):):)

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Nato is obsolete It was an organization created to "defend" europe agaisnt the USSR.Today It's used to exercise western dominance over milateraly weak countrys.Until the E.U regains the power It lost after WW2 ,NATO will keep on existing.

[Kapitan Andrey]

Guardia Bolivariano.....Thank you!

feoric & CrazyPete...No! I belive that they will soon crush!!!

NEW ANTANTA (against yankee's imperialism) SHOULD CONSIST OF RUSSIA,FRANCE,GERMANY,CHINA (may be Greece and North Korea) !!! :biggrin:

[kylie]

If this trend should retreat for what ever reason
why would it? the trade deficit in your post shows that they are the biggest importer in the world. so anything that is damaging to the US economy is damaging to the rest of the world too. none of the developed countries would dare shift focus from the US, for fear of the repercussions it would indirectly have on their own economy- and thats ignoring the direct effects that would be imposed by the US.


NEW ANTANTA (against yankee's imperialism) SHOULD CONSIST OF RUSSIA,FRANCE,GERMANY,CHINA (may be Greece and North Korea) !!!
all of these countries are for, and participate in imperialist actions. you really shouldnt be thinking of any of them as having proper true governments.
france is not going along with the US 100% because of its oil interests and debts Iraq owes it.
germany is using it as a ploy to gain support and take attention away from the faltering economy.
russia fears that after Iraq the former soviet union countries could be next, for their oil. this would conflict with russias own desire for the oil.
and north korea? well, they're just paranoid and aggressive having been left with no allies. the atual regime is certainly not one we should condone.

[Pete]

Feoric beat me to it again. But of course I have a bit of additional support, even if it sounds like the same thing worded differently (like cani's thread in CC says).

"feoric & CrazyPete...No! I belive that they will soon crush!!! "

Could you explain who 'they' are, and why the will 'crush' and who they will 'crush'?

"NEW ANTANTA (against yankee's imperialism) SHOULD CONSIST OF RUSSIA,FRANCE,GERMANY,CHINA (may be Greece and North Korea) !!!"

These are bourgeoisie (and in some case a quasi feudalist) nations. They are not our friends. They can act as such temporarily, but they will never be them completely. Eventually they will have to fall to the stampede of angry people and have a people state, or join an international communist coalition. Support the bourgeoisie if you want, but don't call your self a communist as you do it.

[lacanchita]

Quote: from feoric on 5:12 am on Feb. 25, 2003

If this trend should retreat for what ever reason
why would it? the trade deficit in your post shows that they are the biggest importer in the world. so anything that is damaging to the US economy is damaging to the rest of the world too. none of the developed countries would dare shift focus from the US, for fear of the repercussions it would indirectly have on their own economy- and thats ignoring the direct effects that would be imposed by the US.

i am not talking about developing/3rd world countries shifting their focus, I am talking about the possibility of the industrialised countries doing it. The yen and euro have steadily been getting stronger while the usd has been getting weaker. From an investors' point of view, if the usd loses some of its legitimacy (as it has already to a degree with the problems already seen with Enron and such) then they will simply move their money to a more 'stable' and profit-making location (that also goes for the economic elite in developing countries). Sure there will be massive consequences, but those that want to make money dont really care. Think about all the investors (hedge funds, private investors) that gained a whole lot of money with the Asian Crisis, people like Soros who walk away with billions while those countries (the people) suffered greatly.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Speaking of Greece.They surely must have an interesting opinion on helping Turkey.;)

[Kapitan Andrey]

feoric
>all of these countries are for, and participate in imperialist actions<
This is not true!

>russia fears that after Iraq the former soviet union countries could be next, for their oil. this would conflict with russias own desire for the oil<
1) Write Russia with big first "R"!!!
2)No! We are against the u.s.a., against the grow of their power!!!

CrazyPete
>Could you explain who 'they' are, and why the will 'crush' and who they will 'crush'?<
Don't play a fool!!! I mean >nato<!!!

>They are not our friends<
What are you mean "OUR"...don't tell me that you are from Russia!

>but don't call your self a communist as you do it.<
Are you DUMB!? I'd never told that!!!

[Pete]

"Don't play a fool!!! I mean >nato"
Thank's for the clarification

"What are you mean "OUR"...don't tell me that you are from Russia!"
I am not from Russia, I am saying OUR as in communists.

"Are you DUMB!? I'd never told that!!!"
I guess I based my assumption on the fact that this part of the board is limited to non-authoritative lefties. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Kapitan Andrey]

...Over.

[kylie]

>all of these countries are for, and participate in imperialist actions<
This is not true!


in russias case, this would be the situation in Chechnya(probably spelt wrong)


2)No! We are against the u.s.a., against the grow of their power
of course thats part of why these countries are stalling, as i said in my first post. you are against the US gaining more power, as it would mean russia losing some of its own. which goes against your first point, about russia not being imperialist-they compete with the US for power.
why would russia be against the grow of US power, if it did not damage its own strength?

[Kapitan Andrey]

Damn it! What are you trying to say?

[Pete]

Quote: from Kapitan Andrey on 3:55 am on Feb. 27, 2003

Damn it! What are you trying to say?

Andrey, no offence, but no one here will appease your or anyone else nationalism. If you don't like it bite your tongue really. Marx said "WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE" and we will not let nationalism get in our way. A National Socialist can be shortened in to NAZI. I am not saying you are one, just be careful and take the cricitism of your country or you are no better then the American Nationalist who plugs his ears and screams when we talk to them, you know the ones in the OI forum.

[kylie]

Damn it! What are you trying to say?


well, you made some points on russia, and how i am wrong. then what happened is i responded, with counter-points. this is a common place occurance on a lot of message boards.

[moonlighter]

the power of the US lies in there great budged for warfare wich they intend to use to "persuade" certain nations to join their side. Indeed the nato was "born" to "fight" against the USSR but now that doesn't excist anymore ... what to do but to search a new target ?

[Kapitan Andrey]

feoric...over.

moonlighter...>what to do but to search a new target?<
Yes!!! And new target shall be...>u.s.a.<!!!!!!!!!!!! :biggrin:

[Pete]

"feoric...over. "

I am glad to see you are willing to admit defeat unlike most of us :)

[Kapitan Andrey]

CrazyPete...What!? I'm only don't want to speak with such people who has unbreakable opinion on something!

[Pete]

If we followed your philosphy no one would talk to you about how Russia is Imperialistic.

[Kapitan Andrey]

R-r-r-r!!! Russia IS NOT IMPERIALISTIC!!!!!

How many times I must repeat it!?!? Even the girl of 4 years could understood better than you!!!

Besides! We are talking about >nato<!!!

[Kez]

im thining that Kaptain plays Red Alert too much

[Pete]

Kapitan is russian,.

You said in another forum that Russia was imperialistic, by not wanting to realease it's colonial gains, like Chechnya. An Imperialist is a nation who rejects self determination. In Canada Quebec can go if it has a Majority for leaving confederation.