Achieving Communism

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

From my knowledge, which I admit is slim compared to many people here, communists advocate eliminating class structure, and many communists (anarchists) believe the state also must be destroyed parallel to the destruction of capitalism.

However, as I see powerful and hierarchical institutions in society, I cannot help but notice religion. I realize that Marx has dealt with this issue, and I have read about other leftists disregarding religion. My problem is the power of religion. In the Soviet Union, what measures where taken to eliminate it? From what I have been told, religion remained a powerful influence. In fact, even Hitler had difficulty supressing the Jehovah's Witnesses (I am not pro-Hitler, I am just using this as an example), so I am curious as to how we can eliminate religion, something I think is destructive to society. Violence can deal with it on an individual basis, but how can we destroy its influence entirely?

Of course, logic and atheist truths may be revealed, but I have tried to discuss atheism with many individuals. They are hesitant to buy it. I use the characteristics of God and disprove the concept, and they still believe it in it. I talk about reductionism and the burden of proof, and I fail to make an impact. I have weakened the religious convinctions of two of my friends, one who was believing christian, but it took me over a year. But I realize that my friends are smarter than the average religious individual.

Are there really three evils we should be looking at: class, the state, and religion? Perhaps I am just confused or lacking the proper information.

In any case, I am hoping someone can illuminate me.

[Paradox]

In the Soviet Union, what measures where taken to eliminate it? From what I have been told, religion remained a powerful influence.

The Soviet Union was never communist. No place has ever reached communism, or socialism for that matter. I don't know if you were implying that by asking about the USSR's methods in dealing with religion in a thread about communism and religion, but I just thought I'd point that out.


so I am curious as to how we can eliminate religion, something I think is destructive to society.

I'm not so sure it will ever be completely eliminated. Rather, I think it will be weakened, its influence I mean. Either way, it will take time.


Violence can deal with it on an individual basis, but how can we destroy its influence entirely?

What do you mean by this? I assume you mean punishment for being religious. If so, I'm against the idea of locking people up or killing them simply for being religious. Unless they actually do anything to jeopordize the revolution, actively work against socialism/communism, I wouldn't do anything to them.


I have weakened the religious convinctions of two of my friends, one who was believing christian, but it took me over a year.

Again, it will take time.

I'd prefer people to go outright atheist of course, but as a step in that direction I like Malcolm X's take on the issue of religion. Of course Malcolm was a muslim, but he suggested that people keep their religions to themselves- between them and their god- and that they work together on issues like human rights and civil rights, etc. There's a quote by him that goes like this:

"They don't hang you cuz you're muslim, they hang you cuz you're black."

So as a step in the right direction, ironically, I like Malcolm's idea. With time, religion's influence will weaken.

[violencia.Proletariat]

My problem is the power of religion. In the Soviet Union, what measures where taken to eliminate it?

from what ive been told by a woman who lived in siberia people were not allowed to wear crosses or religious symbols and all the churches had been closed. so preaching in public was obviously illegal


From what I have been told, religion remained a powerful influence.

evidence?


Violence can deal with it on an individual basis, but how can we destroy its influence entirely?

it will take care of itself for the most part. religion is dieing in western countries. people are starting to live their lives like there is no god. a communist society however would never let a church be built.


Of course, logic and atheist truths may be revealed, but I have tried to discuss atheism with many individuals. They are hesitant to buy it

no shit. it wont work with everyone, yet. most "religious" people in america at least are playing a game. they might attend church once a week and "pray" but in their everyday lives they dont live like god is watching them. eventually people will just quit going to church.


I have weakened the religious convinctions of two of my friends, one who was believing christian, but it took me over a year. But I realize that my friends are smarter than the average religious individual.

thats a start. and over a while your friends my just dump the shit all together. you alone arent going to destroy religion. but im not gonna stop you from trying :P


Are there really three evils we should be looking at: class, the state, and religion?

yes!

[ComradeOm]

Religion is not an "evil" in itself, its just a by-product of living under an oppressive regime. It allows people to escape everyday realities and delude themselves into thinking that slaving under the system is worth it. When these harsh realities no longer exist (ie the exploitative capitalist class has been overthrown) then there will be no need for religion and it shall die out.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't fight it in everyday life of course :)

As for the USSR, I believe, though I’ve no figures on hand, that the early Soviet repression of organised religion was actually quite successful. When Stalin went to use it as a tool in WWII, the church barely existed.

[enigma2517]

Doesn't religion prevent people from having a materialist conception of history?

Religion=reactionary masses

Can we really have a system of partcipatory democracy (people making important decisions about themselves everyday) while people are still religious? Personally, I'd be very scared.

My question is: what needs to go first, religion or capitalism? CAN we in fact get rid of capitalism if we have to fight with the religious amongst our ranks?

[Paradox]

My question is: what needs to go first, religion or capitalism? CAN we in fact get rid of capitalism if we have to fight with the religious amongst our ranks?

I would say both would have to go more or less simultaneously. Christianity at least, I remember studying in sociology that the rise of capitalism was linked with christianity. And from talking with my mother (obviously this just one example), it would make sense because she says that the bible or god justifies people getting wealthy if they "deserve it" or "work hard for it." So the two are tied together and would have to go down pretty much side by side.


Can we really have a system of partcipatory democracy (people making important decisions about themselves everyday) while people are still religious? Personally, I'd be very scared.

If religion's influence was significantly weakened and the number of people who actually were "religious" was small, I don't see how it would affect a system of participatory democracy. And to bring up Malcolm's point again, people could keep their religious/spiritual beliefs to themselves. The effectiveness of such a tactic can be debated, but if people actually tried, it would be a start. In any case, a few religious people here and there would hardly constitute a threat to a mass proletarian movement, in my opinion.