Racial/National Pride

[Revolutionary_Anti-Fascist]

Everyday the message is pounded into us that national pride is a good thing, a tad hypocritical considering the law leans against it but still... for the minority, the message is also pu across that racial pride is also a good thing.

Both are very bad things to have, lets start with national pride, i know of three people who are very patriotic and even nationalistic if i may use the word. People like this believe that Britain has had many superior achievements and are therefore somehow better than other countries, this is an embarrisingly retarded viewpoint, firstly our so called military strength, we should not be 'proud' we won two world wars, we should be happy the other side didn't. We should of course have respect for those who fought in the war (on both sides) but we should not insult their memory by attempting to define their reasons, "they fought for that flag" "they fought for our freedom" etc etc, these idiotic remarks are sickening, of course a few did join up for these reasons but it is important to remember not everyone did, some joined up purely because it was the only realistic job prospect available, others simply to prevent evil from triumphing, regardless of all this, winning a war is NOTHING to be proud of.

What about this, "Britain has advanced science more than any other country" bullshit? Wrong, people that happen to be British have, if you give an African the same level of education and resources as these people had they could do the exact same thing, the fact that they were British held no relevance in their inventions or discoveries.

Sports, why the fuck should we be proud that our country won the world cup or anything else? They didn't win because they were British they won because they were talented, and don't ever say "we won it" because what fucking part did you play in that?

Flag wavers are the worst, so i should be prevented from burning a tatty piece of fabric because people have fought and died for it? Horse shit, people fought and died for necessity, what was necessary to them at any given time, believe it or not, not everyone who fought in a war was patriotic (shock horror!)

Racial pride is even worse, whatever anyone tells you, it is racism, again the fact that people who have advanced cculture/science etc were white held no relevance in their advancements, it can be done by any person of any race given the same enviroment.

Why be proud in a race that has profited off of others? every single achievement by any race has been built upon somebody elses toil, the only reason the white race did so much for science is because they exploited the minorites for profit which gave us the resources to do so.

In conclusion, if you are proud of something you had no control over such as race or nationality.......you are an idiot and i will happily end your miserable lives.

[VonClausewitz]

I won't argue with all of your childish ranting, just the bits I'm obviously rather more knowledgeble than you in. The fact that 'retarded' and 'bullshit' are words used within your reasoning exposes the simplicity of it all really, but I digress, on with the show eh ?

Is it illogical that I am proud of my great-grandfather dying under the german guns at Mons, because he wanted to fight for his country ? because he was willing to die for his convictions ?

Why pick on the British anyway ? Britain since the 1960's has had guilt and anti-british history pounded into it's schooling. I managed to survive 10 years of secondary/sixth form schooling, whereing we were told constantly how awfull and terrible Britain has been for the world, basically denying any of the good things ever achieved.

Why not pick on the Imperialist world as a whole ? Belgium in the congo, France in 'Indochina', Germany in Africa ? Or are you one of these that thinks only Britain has things to answer for, or perhaps you're just a bit of a racialist yourself eh ?


"they fought for that flag" "they fought for our freedom" etc etc, these idiotic remarks are sickening, of course a few did join up for these reasons but it is important to remember not everyone did, some joined up purely because it was the only realistic job prospect available, others simply to prevent evil from triumphing, regardless of all this, winning a war is NOTHING to be proud of.

Check your history, many British and European soldiers, once in the army, fought for their regiment, for their colours, untill the practice of carrying them into battle was abolished (due to so many soldiers dying to protect that symbol of their honour), French soldiers in the Great War and the World War fought for their freedom, as did Russian, British, Belgian, Dutch (the list goes on) soldiers.

A lot of people did yes join because it was a job, but this proffessional army was wiped out first in many wars, and was bolstered by patriots, volunteers, and finally conscripts towards the biggest parts of the big wars.

I'd say winning a war over a techinally superior enemy is something to be proud of yes ? (Americans in their revolution, Anyone fighting the best arms of the German army in any war, The British beating Rommel in Africa). Being proud of the war itself is yes, ridiculous, but being proud of why and how and by whom it was won is not.


Flag wavers are the worst, so i should be prevented from burning a tatty piece of fabric because people have fought and died for it? Horse shit, people fought and died for necessity, what was necessary to them at any given time, believe it or not, not everyone who fought in a war was patriotic (shock horror!)

So you will spit on the memory of the grenadiers and officers in any battle, for any country, that fought, died, and drove themselves to the limits of human endurance to protect 'a tatty piece of fabric' ? .


Racial pride is even worse, whatever anyone tells you, it is racism, again the fact that people who have advanced cculture/science etc were white held no relevance in their advancements, it can be done by any person of any race given the same enviroment.

Do you consider black pride organisations to be racist aswell ? I know many people hold terrible double standards when it comes to racism, percieving that only whites can be racist.


In conclusion, if you are proud of something you had no control over such as race or nationality.......you are an idiot and i will happily end your miserable lives.

My life isn't miserable, I'm proud of where I'm from, it's history (including the bad bits that it has had the balls to admit and in a lot of cases either apologise/compensate for), and well, I'm just a proud person. So come and end my life child.

[Revolutionary_Anti-Fascist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 01:08 PM

I won't argue with all of your childish ranting, just the bits I'm obviously rather more knowledgeble than you in. The fact that 'retarded' and 'bullshit' are words used within your reasoning exposes the simplicity of it all really, but I digress, on with the show eh ?

It wasn't meant as an essay and therefore the language is hardly perfect, nor is the grammar etc i'll be the first to admit this.


Is it illogical that I am proud of my great-grandfather dying under the german guns at Mons, because he wanted to fight for his country ? because he was willing to die for his convictions ?

As i said, i have every bit of respect for people that have given me this freedom i have, i merely wish to express that defining their reasons is an insult. Perhaps your great-grandfather did fight for the flag, i believe this is foolish of him, but i have every bit of respect for him.


Why pick on the British anyway ? Britain since the 1960's has had guilt and anti-british history pounded into it's schooling. I managed to survive 10 years of secondary/sixth form schooling, whereing we were told constantly how awfull and terrible Britain has been for the world, basically denying any of the good things ever achieved.

I used Britain namely because i am British and the board i posted this on originally was almost entirely British, this is eident in any countries history, but remembre......Britain didn't achieve these things, people who were British did.


Check your history, many British and European soldiers, once in the army, fought for their regiment, for their colours, untill the practice of carrying them into battle was abolished (due to so many soldiers dying to protect that symbol of their honour), French soldiers in the Great War and the World War fought for their freedom, as did Russian, British, Belgian, Dutch (the list goes on) soldiers.

And you have the right to define their reasons why?



I'd say winning a war over a techinally superior enemy is something to be proud of yes ? (Americans in their revolution, Anyone fighting the best arms of the German army in any war, The British beating Rommel in Africa). Being proud of the war itself is yes, ridiculous, but being proud of why and how and by whom it was won is not.

I see your point here, perhaps i was too general in that statement.



So you will spit on the memory of the grenadiers and officers in any battle, for any country, that fought, died, and drove themselves to the limits of human endurance to protect 'a tatty piece of fabric' ? .

I will indeed do whatever i please to the flag, because if as you say these people fought for my freedom, then i have the freedom to do so, i do not consider it disgracing their memory.


Do you consider black pride organisations to be racist aswell ? I know many people hold terrible double standards when it comes to racism, percieving that only whites can be racist.

Of course i do, again i used the white race as an example because i and the majority of the board i posted this on first were white.


My life isn't miserable, I'm proud of where I'm from, it's history (including the bad bits that it has had the balls to admit and in a lot of cases either apologise/compensate for), and well, I'm just a proud person. So come and end my life child.

Proud of something you played no part in? are you compensating for your underachieving friend?

I won't argue with all of your childish ranting, just the bits I'm obviously rather more knowledgeble than you in. The fact that 'retarded' and 'bullshit' are words used within your reasoning exposes the simplicity of it all really, but I digress, on with the show eh ?

It wasn't meant as an essay and therefore the language is hardly perfect, nor is the grammar etc i'll be the first to admit this.


Is it illogical that I am proud of my great-grandfather dying under the german guns at Mons, because he wanted to fight for his country ? because he was willing to die for his convictions ?

As i said, i have every bit of respect for people that have given me this freedom i have, i merely wish to express that defining their reasons is an insult. Perhaps your great-grandfather did fight for the flag, i believe this is foolish of him, but i have every bit of respect for him.


Why pick on the British anyway ? Britain since the 1960's has had guilt and anti-british history pounded into it's schooling. I managed to survive 10 years of secondary/sixth form schooling, whereing we were told constantly how awfull and terrible Britain has been for the world, basically denying any of the good things ever achieved.

I used Britain namely because i am British and the board i posted this on originally was almost entirely British, this is eident in any countries history, but remembre......Britain didn't achieve these things, people who were British did.


Check your history, many British and European soldiers, once in the army, fought for their regiment, for their colours, untill the practice of carrying them into battle was abolished (due to so many soldiers dying to protect that symbol of their honour), French soldiers in the Great War and the World War fought for their freedom, as did Russian, British, Belgian, Dutch (the list goes on) soldiers.

And you have the right to define their reasons why?



I'd say winning a war over a techinally superior enemy is something to be proud of yes ? (Americans in their revolution, Anyone fighting the best arms of the German army in any war, The British beating Rommel in Africa). Being proud of the war itself is yes, ridiculous, but being proud of why and how and by whom it was won is not.

I see your point here, perhaps i was too general in that statement.



So you will spit on the memory of the grenadiers and officers in any battle, for any country, that fought, died, and drove themselves to the limits of human endurance to protect 'a tatty piece of fabric' ? .

I will indeed do whatever i please to the flag, because if as you say these people fought for my freedom, then i have the freedom to do so, i do not consider it disgracing their memory.


Do you consider black pride organisations to be racist aswell ? I know many people hold terrible double standards when it comes to racism, percieving that only whites can be racist.

Of course i do, again i used the white race as an example because i and the majority of the board i posted this on first were white.


My life isn't miserable, I'm proud of where I'm from, it's history (including the bad bits that it has had the balls to admit and in a lot of cases either apologise/compensate for), and well, I'm just a proud person. So come and end my life child.

Proud of something you played no part in? are you compensating for your underachieving friend?

[VonClausewitz]

QUOTE
Check your history, many British and European soldiers, once in the army, fought for their regiment, for their colours, untill the practice of carrying them into battle was abolished (due to so many soldiers dying to protect that symbol of their honour), French soldiers in the Great War and the World War fought for their freedom, as did Russian, British, Belgian, Dutch (the list goes on) soldiers.


And you have the right to define their reasons why?

Methinks that Frenchmen fighting Germans in the Somme weren't doing it for the general enjoyment of it ? I hate to bring this up, but I am doing a degree course in History and War, and one of the biggest sections of it is why people have fought, so I understand pretty well when someone is motivated to fight for their freedom or not.


QUOTE
So you will spit on the memory of the grenadiers and officers in any battle, for any country, that fought, died, and drove themselves to the limits of human endurance to protect 'a tatty piece of fabric' ? .


I will indeed do whatever i please to the flag, because if as you say these people fought for my freedom, then i have the freedom to do so, i do not consider it disgracing their memory.

No no, I meant in the context that many of the soldiers who would have fought and died to protect their flag would have been fighting for their regiment, not Britain.






QUOTE
Do you consider black pride organisations to be racist aswell ? I know many people hold terrible double standards when it comes to racism, percieving that only whites can be racist.


Of course i do, again i used the white race as an example because i and the majority of the board i posted this on first were white.

Fair enough, just had to make sure, there are, like I said, far too many people who refuse to accept racism is bad, no matter the source. For recognising that you have my respect.


QUOTE
My life isn't miserable, I'm proud of where I'm from, it's history (including the bad bits that it has had the balls to admit and in a lot of cases either apologise/compensate for), and well, I'm just a proud person. So come and end my life child.


Proud of something you played no part in? are you compensating for your underachieving friend?

Proud of something my ancestors played a part in. Underachieving friend ?

[Revolutionary_Anti-Fascist]

Methinks that Frenchmen fighting Germans in the Somme weren't doing it for the general enjoyment of it ? I hate to bring this up, but I am doing a degree course in History and War, and one of the biggest sections of it is why people have fought, so I understand pretty well when someone is motivated to fight for their freedom or not.

You don't need a degree to know that, i take history at a-level and i know why, it's necessity, what is necessary to any person at any time. Yes for some it's a flag, to others it's freedom, to others it's because they have no choice.


No no, I meant in the context that many of the soldiers who would have fought and died to protect their flag would have been fighting for their regiment, not Britain.

Fair enough, that's a nice idea though, sort of suggests a strong friendship.


Fair enough, just had to make sure, there are, like I said, far too many people who refuse to accept racism is bad, no matter the source. For recognising that you have my respect.

Racism whatever it's source is an evil. You have my respect also for being able to argue your point but also keep it strictly on debate terms.


Proud of something my ancestors played a part in. Underachieving friend ?

My point is merely you played no part, like when people say "yeah we won the world cup" they played no part, why do they deserve to bask in the glory?

[VonClausewitz]

QUOTE
Proud of something my ancestors played a part in. Underachieving friend ?


My point is merely you played no part, like when people say "yeah we won the world cup" they played no part, why do they deserve to bask in the glory?

I'm getting an education before I play my part (hopefully), not many have played much of a major part in any history untill later in their lives, so it is a little premature to argue this point, at this point in time.

I see what you mean though, and I am just proud of what they achieved, if you took away the flags and the borders, I'd still be proud of what I am, what they were. Call it personal pride if you like.

[Revolutionary_Anti-Fascist]

I too plan to get an education before i play my part (certain plans to go to Mexico perhaps after uni) it's not that i think you're a layabout, it's tha i think you played no part in previous 'successes'.

Myself, i am proud that i live in a country where i have access to a decent standard of living, nothing more.

I do however find it difficult to understand why you're a restricted member? You seem perfectly open to other views.

[VonClausewitz]

Read the last part of my signature ;)


it's not that i think you're a layabout, it's tha i think you played no part in previous 'successes'.


Quite so, I merely study them, to understand them, and hope to apply what I learn in my life. I expect a certain amout of this 'pride' will stem from me having spent all of my school/university life studying the past, the people, places and events that have shaped who we are. You can get very lost in the past sometimes.

[Revolutionary_Anti-Fascist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 03:25 PM


Read the last part of my signature ;)
Quite so, I merely study them, to understand them, and hope to apply what I learn in my life. I expect a certain amout of this 'pride' will stem from me having spent all of my school/university life studying the past, the people, places and events that have shaped who we are. You can get very lost in the past sometimes.
I thought restricting members was only meant as a way to prevent people abusing the board by either spamming or being overly abusive, not restricting political speech?

I quite agree, history is a fantastic subject, oddly enough...less than 6 months ago i was fiercly patriotic, i guess i just saw another path that appealed more.

[VonClausewitz]

I think it's either at a mod's discrection, or the discretion of some voting committe that I've been told of, that decides who gets restricted/banned etc. I expect I either caught a liberal mod in a bad mood, or they thought I'd be bad for the rest of the site.

There ain't nothing wrong with choosing how you want to live your life either, if you have the stomach to say thats who you are and how you want to be, then fine, go for it, if people stand in your way (as long as you aren't a baby-eating mad crazy person), then they're in the wrong methinks.

From your very first post though, I did neglect this point; about racial pride, I do agree with you that that is a totally pointless thing, as to take pride in one's family and place of living is one thing, but pride in a race is another, as that means you take pride in ever concievable form of evil that humanity has to offer.

[Revolutionary_Anti-Fascist]

I admit i've only read this one thread with you in, but it seems to me there is no reason you should be banned, but obviously it isn't for me to say.

I guessed from the start you weren't proud racially, national pride is still in my eyes wrong but i obviously have no plans to compare you to a racist.

[ComradeOm]

Why not pick on the Imperialist world as a whole ? Belgium in the congo, France in 'Indochina', Germany in Africa ? Or are you one of these that thinks only Britain has things to answer for, or perhaps you're just a bit of a racialist yourself eh ?
Because Britain was by far and away the largest imperialist power dwarfing the likes of Germany and Belgium. I thought a military minded fellow like yourself would know that big targets usually catch the most flak ;)

This is a leftist board and those who do not subcribe to socialist ideals are restricted so that we do not have to put up with endless commie/capi threads.

[Revolutionary_Anti-Fascist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 04:33 PM
[QUOTE]This is a leftist board and those who do not subcribe to socialist ideals are restricted so that we do not have to put up with endless commie/capi threads.[QUOTE]
Whilst i of course understand that, it does seem slightly authoritrian to restrict people merely because they disagree with us. In extreme cases obviously it is needed, but if an opinion is valid it should be open to debate.

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by Revolutionary_Anti-[email protected] 19 2005, 04:36 PM

[QUOTE]This is a leftist board and those who do not subcribe to socialist ideals are restricted so that we do not have to put up with endless commie/capi threads.[QUOTE]
Whilst i of course understand that, it does seem slightly authoritrian to restrict people merely because they disagree with us. In extreme cases obviously it is needed, but if an opinion is valid it should be open to debate.
And it is, in the restricted board. Left vs. Right is not the entire purpose of this site, if it was there would be no restricted board.

[Guerrilla22]

On race and national pride, its okay as long as you don't feel superior to other races and nationalities. Also white is not a race, nor is black.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 07:14 PM
On race and national pride, its okay as long as you don't feel superior to other races and nationalities. Also white is not a race, nor is black.
I disagree. Racial/National Pride is stupid and widens the void between Proletariat.

[hamperleft]

some pride is necessary in every thing we do, without pride, we would not care weather we did something well or not, thus national pride is necessary, otherwise no one would care, any type of government would not work, there would be no economy, and no art
racial pride is different, it is not necessary, and uncalled for in modern society, racial pride serves no purpose, and does not help any one, only hinders relation between people.

just wanted to say that....