Morality

[DisIllusion]

The dictionary says Moral is: 1 a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ETHICAL <moral judgments> b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem> c : conforming to a standard of right behavior d : sanctioned by or operative on one&#39;s conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation> e : capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent>

I&#39;m asking you what is a moral? Is it given from God or some other higher being? Should we follow "morals"?

[Zingu]

There are no such thing as morals; "good" and "bad" are purely subjective.

[apathy maybe]

There is no such thing as natural laws (beyond the physical). There are no morals that are not created by people. Even if a god or creator exists, humans have what amounts to "free will". There is no good or bad. A lion doesn&#39;t ask if it shouldn&#39;t kill a zebra.

There is no such thing as inalienable rights, people create them. That is not to say that they are rights that everyone should have, but they don’t have them simply because they exist.

But while I think that there is no good or evil (in the absolute sense), I do have a personal moral system, and I judge others based on it. People may claim that all cultures are equal or some other such nonsense, I say no. Yes they should all be treated according to the same measurement. But those that support oppression or discrimination, are obviously inferior to those that don&#39;t (at least in regards to oppression and discrimination).

Should we follow morals? Yes, mine. I have the best morals, if I didn&#39;t I would try and find the best ones. But I think that I have the best morals. So because they are best, everyone else should follow them too. If someone has better morals, then let them show me and I will decide if mine are flawed.

[Bannockburn]

There are no such thing as morals; "good" and "bad" are purely subjective.

No. ethics is the discipline of discerning between right and wrong, not good or bad. Good and bad have degrees, ie, bad, badder, baddest, Good, better, best. So, it doesn&#39;t work. You don&#39;t have right, righter, rightest, or wrong, wronger, wrongest. Either you are right or wrong, period. There are no degrees


I&#39;m asking you what is a moral? Is it given from God or some other higher being? Should we follow "morals"?

Don&#39;t use a dictionary to quote ethics. Most definitions of ethics is based on circular definitions and will only confuse you.

What is it to be ethical? Not to do wrong. Should we follow ethics. Yes. Why should we do wrong?

[DisIllusion]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 07:02 PM


There are no such thing as morals; "good" and "bad" are purely subjective.

No. ethics is the discipline of discerning between right and wrong, not good or bad. Good and bad have degrees, ie, bad, badder, baddest, Good, better, best. So, it doesn&#39;t work. You don&#39;t have right, righter, rightest, or wrong, wronger, wrongest. Either you are right or wrong, period. There are no degrees


I&#39;m asking you what is a moral? Is it given from God or some other higher being? Should we follow "morals"?

Don&#39;t use a dictionary to quote ethics. Most definitions of ethics is based on circular definitions and will only confuse you.

What is it to be ethical? Not to do wrong. Should we follow ethics. Yes. Why should we do wrong?
But what is "wrong"? Everybody has their different code of ethics and morals. So how can we have one leader if all of us have different ethics/morals?

[Bannockburn]

But what is "wrong"? Everybody has their different code of ethics and morals. So how can we have one leader if all of us have different ethics/morals?

Okay, okay, so you want to leave ethics now, and go to meta-ethics? Okay. First question: What do you mean by what? As the ontological "wrongless" of wrong? Generally, I would say provided it does no harm, and does not violated Rights. Standard Mills answer. We&#39;ll start from there.

Also, no. Nobody has their own ethical code. Most of the so called, "ethical problems" are not even ethical to begin with, so really the relative response is nul and void.

[Janus]

One must always analyze morals in the social context of which they came from. Morals aren&#39;t entities that are unchangeable and exist outside of influence. Take slavery for example. In the past, different churches stated that it was okay and used the Bible to back it up. However, after the abolition of slavery, it has become a completely sinful act.

[Hopes_Guevara]

Originally posted by "Engels"
We therefore reject every attempt to impose on us any moral dogma whatsoever as an eternal, ultimate and for ever immutable ethical law on the pretext that the moral world, too, has its permanent principles which stand above history and the differences between nations. We maintain on the contrary that all moral theories have been hitherto the product, in the last analysis, of the economic conditions of society obtaining at the time. And as society has hitherto moved in class antagonisms, morality has always been class morality; it has either justified the domination and the interests of the ruling class, or ever since the oppressed class became powerful enough, it has represented its indignation against this domination and the future interests of the oppressed. That in this process there has on the whole been progress in morality, as in all other branches of human knowledge, no one will doubt. But we have not yet passed beyond class morality. A really human morality which stands above class antagonisms and above any recollection of them becomes possible only at a stage of society which has not only overcome class antagonisms but has even forgotten them in practical life.

[DisIllusion]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 22 2005, 11:03 AM
One must always analyze morals in the social context of which they came from. Morals aren&#39;t entities that are unchangeable and exist outside of influence. Take slavery for example. In the past, different churches stated that it was okay and used the Bible to back it up. However, after the abolition of slavery, it has become a completely sinful act.
Yeah, that&#39;s what I mean. How can one lead a &#39;moral&#39; lifestyle if the morals themselves are constantly being changed to help keep the ones who make the morals (the Church, the government) in power?

[Janus]

Morality is one of the most important tools of the ruling class. As you said, through this they have been able to force their own ends in order to gain submission and obedience.

Your question has to do with ethics, specifically applied ethics. A more knowledgeable philosopher than me could explain more of this to you. However, from my own observations, morality is steeped in so much controversy that one can&#39;t really live a pure "moral" life. For example, take deception or lying. A deontologist would state that a lie is morally wrong no matter what. However, what if that lie were done with a good purpose such as to save someone else from harm. If that were the case, then a utilitarianist would agree that it was morally justified since it was done for the good of the whole. As you can see, the debate rages on and depending on the situation, one can&#39;t really live a pure "moral" life. The most important thing is to analyze it for yourself rather than hold onto any "moral" dogma.

[istillloveatomickitten]

morality = religion

[DisIllusion]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 03:55 PM
morality = religion
Exactly, so is there real "good" way to act if you aren&#39;t religious?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Morality is blaming societies problems on the actions of certian people.

You do this and you are "good" you do that and you are "bad".

Morality is a trap we should not let ourselves fall into. We should use our class perspective to figure out what is good or bad. Most "moral systems" say that the actions of all people are the same no matter what their class, race, or particular circumstances. Of corse, the ruling class only uses morality as long as it benifits them: thou shal not kill unless you are killing for us through war or we are killing you through the police and exaccutions and so on.

I think it is more than "fair" to follow our ruler&#39;s lead and decide what iss good and bad based on our own class intrests... it is "good" for workers to take as much as they can from their employers and it is always bad for employers to take from their workers.

[iloveatomickitten]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 01:19 AM
Exactly, so is there real "good" way to act if you aren&#39;t religious?
[COLOR=blue][COLOR=blue][COLOR=blue]

Morals are merely a way people justify themselves and their actions i.e. they exist to comfort people, make people feel important, impress others and protect wealth.

[DisIllusion]

Morals don&#39;t always have to justify an action, on the most part, they prevent you from doing some, if not most, actions.

"Respect your master as you would Me."
One of the rules in the Bible about slaves and how they should act.

[Schwarzwald]

Morals come from God, we&#39;d need some sort of higher power to show us whats right and whats wrong otherwise everything would be chaos. Also; I&#39;m not Christian but I think the Bible&#39;s part about slaves obeying their masters as they would God means they should be patient and, in time, freedom will come along (sort of like Marxism says freedom is inevidable through the dialectical process and that workers should carry on and stay patient).

[Jimmie Higgins]

I thought what, Marxism says, is for workers to unite, rise up and revolt; not be "patient"&#33;

[Janus]

Morals come from God, we&#39;d need some sort of higher power to show us whats right and whats wrong otherwise everything would be chaos.
Can you prove that our morals come from God?


Also; I&#39;m not Christian but I think the Bible&#39;s part about slaves obeying their masters as they would God means they should be patient and, in time, freedom will come along
So you believe that slavery is ethical since it was supported by the Bible?


sort of like Marxism says freedom is inevidable through the dialectical process and that workers should carry on and stay patient).
You mean communism right? The material conditions must be right for the workers to rise up, which is why many of the communist organizations were so patient.

[LSD]

Morals come from God

No, actually it&#39;s more like the reverse.

"God" was invented to bolster morals. To make society obey the "morality" of its rulers without question.

Unfortunately, it seems to have worked on you. How sad. :(


we&#39;d need some sort of higher power to show us whats right and whats wrong otherwise everything would be chaos.

And what happens when that "higher power" is wrong?

If we base our "morality" on the arbitrary dictates of thousand year old "holy text", then we are forever trapped in its regressive paradigm.

The problem with "trusting in God" is that "God" doesn&#39;t exist and "his" words are actually the words of long dead men.

And no man should be "obeyed"&#33;

[DisIllusion]

And what of "God&#39;s Word" being carried out by man? Is it really God&#39;s will for America to crush every country in the world and convert them to Christianity by force? Or for people to occupy another nation and oppress it&#39;s people so they can get the "land that they deserve", according to a dead man 4000 years ago?

[Schwarzwald]

First thing, I&#39;m a Muslim not a Christian. God chooses our leaders but what they do from there on is not His responsibility because He gave us all free will and yes, everything is as He wills; I dont like how the world is or what America is doing but its in Allah&#39;s plan and with Him do I put my faith. You can deny God&#39;s existence if you want but thats your choice, He guides whom He will and to those who choose not to they wont. Im not here to convert anyone and you dont have to agree with me, Im just giving my side on it. As far as morals go I&#39;d say there neccessary in order to have a functioning society. They prevent (for the most part) murder, thievery, cheating, etc.

[Schwarzwald]

Originally posted by DisIllusion+Dec 31 2005, 06:34 PM--> (DisIllusion @ Dec 31 2005, 06:34 PM)
Comrade [email protected] 22 2005, 11:03 AM
One must always analyze morals in the social context of which they came from. Morals aren&#39;t entities that are unchangeable and exist outside of influence. Take slavery for example. In the past, different churches stated that it was okay and used the Bible to back it up. However, after the abolition of slavery, it has become a completely sinful act.
Yeah, that&#39;s what I mean. How can one lead a &#39;moral&#39; lifestyle if the morals themselves are constantly being changed to help keep the ones who make the morals (the Church, the government) in power? [/b]
Good point, instead of listenin to the Church one should go by the text and not the organization. If youre Christian go by the Bible not the Church, Jews should go by the Torah not the Synagogue, and Muslims should go by the Qur&#39;an not the Mosque. Same with Communists if youd like, go by Das Kapital and not the Party.

[DisIllusion]

He gave us all free will and yes, everything is as He wills

So you have free will...as long as it&#39;s His will?


I dont like how the world is or what America is doing but its in Allah&#39;s plan and with Him do I put my faith

As in pre-determined Fate?


As far as morals go I&#39;d say there neccessary in order to have a functioning society. They prevent (for the most part) murder, thievery, cheating, etc.

Not necessarily, I don&#39;t believe in religious morals but instead follow my own. I think about the common good. I don&#39;t rape people because it&#39;s not good for anybody. I don&#39;t kill anybody because it&#39;s not good for anybody. After all, you don&#39;t see atheists and agnostics running around going around looting everything in sight do you?

[Schwarzwald]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 31 2005, 07:02 PM
Morality is one of the most important tools of the ruling class. As you said, through this they have been able to force their own ends in order to gain submission and obedience.


Wrong, communism and socialism are fueled on one basic belief that people should get what they deserve (capitalist who does nothing deserves nothing,worker who does everything deserves everything) which is the basic form of justice to ensure everyone gets theirs. Justice is an extremely moral idea is it not as some morals say dont cheat, dont kill, dont steal. The problem is that corrupt people have often used good things and re-worded them for their own advantage. I&#39;d even go as far to say that Jesus was a communist (peace be unto him). P.S. No, I dont think he&#39;s the son of God.

[Schwarzwald]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 05:06 AM

He gave us all free will and yes, everything is as He wills

So you have free will...as long as it&#39;s His will?


I dont like how the world is or what America is doing but its in Allah&#39;s plan and with Him do I put my faith

As in pre-determined Fate?


As far as morals go I&#39;d say there neccessary in order to have a functioning society. They prevent (for the most part) murder, thievery, cheating, etc.

Not necessarily, I don&#39;t believe in religious morals but instead follow my own. I think about the common good. I don&#39;t rape people because it&#39;s not good for anybody. I don&#39;t kill anybody because it&#39;s not good for anybody. After all, you don&#39;t see atheists and agnostics running around going around looting everything in sight do you?
He gave us free will but major events are all God&#39;s pre-determind Fate. Just the fact that you do good because its good for others is a Muslim act within itself and also brings back what Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you".

[DisIllusion]

Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you".

Jesus also said "Love thy neighbor as thy friend" but a couple books earlier says "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth".


Justice is an extremely moral idea is it not as some morals say dont cheat, dont kill, dont steal. The problem is that corrupt people have often used good things and re-worded them for their own advantage.

Exactly, but the thing is that these twisted "morals" have been accepted to be the definition of "moral" and everybody lives by them. Everytime we go into a war we always think that God is with us. But more often than not, so does the other side. This is illustrated in the quote, "If God be for us, who could stand against us".

So we&#39;re arguing that you shouldn&#39;t believe every moral set for you in the name of God or Allah. After all, it&#39;s all some other man&#39;s interpretation.

[C_Rasmussen]

Actually morality is based on what YOU see is right or wrong, not based on a religious belief.

[DisIllusion]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 09:25 PM
Actually morality is based on what YOU see is right or wrong, not based on a religious belief.
Yes, but religious beliefs instill the distinction between "right" and "wrong". Once again, the Bible states that "the slave should obey his master as he would obey Me." When we, as Communists/Socialists/Anarchists know different that to lie docile under the ruling class.

[Schwarzwald]

Originally posted by DisIllusion+Jan 15 2006, 05:27 AM--> (DisIllusion @ Jan 15 2006, 05:27 AM)
[email protected] 14 2006, 09:25 PM
Actually morality is based on what YOU see is right or wrong, not based on a religious belief.
Yes, but religious beliefs instill the distinction between "right" and "wrong". Once again, the Bible states that "the slave should obey his master as he would obey Me." When we, as Communists/Socialists/Anarchists know different that to lie docile under the ruling class. [/b]
But arent Socialists/Communists/Anarchists just instilled with theories and philosophies created by "long dead men", as you put it.

[Schwarzwald]

Also, the moral behind "obey your master as you would Me" is that if your patient freedom will come and that if he is not truly fit to be master than something will come to pass that will take his power. An example is this; God makes Bush the President, Bush abuses power, Bush administration plummets into its current form.

[DisIllusion]

But arent Socialists/Communists/Anarchists just instilled with theories and philosophies created by "long dead men", as you put it.

Not exactly, the oppressed will always yearn for freedom, the lacking will yearn for fufillment. Those theories are just the compilations and translations of those basic wants and desires. A baby fresh out of the womb will learn that it would want basic freedoms and fufillments long before it hears the implorings of religion. In fact, religion isn&#39;t really necessary at all to survive, one could say that it&#39;s just a misleading way of trying to feel secure.

[DisIllusion]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 09:37 PM
Also, the moral behind "obey your master as you would Me" is that if your patient freedom will come and that if he is not truly fit to be master than something will come to pass that will take his power. An example is this; God makes Bush the President, Bush abuses power, Bush administration plummets into its current form.
And yet, there are many who still approve of what he&#39;s doing because of his so called, "Christian" agenda.

[Schwarzwald]

So, there are still many that love Hitler but that doesnt give the Nazis power. Facts are that Bush is going down and people who call his agenda Christian well what about them? Some people call bin Laden a man with a Muslim agenda but that doesnt make him a Muslim. As far as the oppressed yerning for freedom, thats true but you dont need Marx or Bakunin to do it; Vietnam didnt need communism to have a revolution because God willed it to be regardless of whether or not the Vietnamese had read Das Kapital or the Communist Manifesto.

[LSD]

God chooses our leaders but what they do from there on is not His responsibility

And what if we don&#39;t want "God&#39;s leaders"?

Will he "smite" us? "Cast us out"?

Sorry, but I don&#39;t want a "God" that appints "masters" to "rule over us". If such a "God" did exist, it would be our duty to fight him.

Luckily, of course, "he" is just a superstitious myth ...and one that is rapidly losing influence.


You can deny God&#39;s existence if you want

:lol:

You seem to be confused on the way the logic works.

Allow me to explain.

If you make an insane propositiong, like say there&#39;s an invisible man in the sky, it is up to you to provide evidence for it.

If you are unable to so, we must conclude that your contention is false.

So...what do you got?


Wrong, communism and socialism are fueled on one basic belief that people should get what they deserve

No&#33;

Communism is not based in "belief" in anything.

It is based in the objective materialist analysis of socioeconomic conditions.

"Belief" and "faith" have no place in a civilized society.


But arent Socialists/Communists/Anarchists just instilled with theories and philosophies created by "long dead men", as you put it.

Yes, but we do not accept theese theories "blindly", we demand proof&#33;

Anyone who takes communism "on faith" is not a true communist. "Faith" is the moral enemy of all progressive ideologies.


Vietnam didnt need communism to have a revolution because God willed it to be regardless of whether or not the Vietnamese had read Das Kapital or the Communist Manifesto.

And did "God will" the two million odd deaths that ensued in that war?

Did "God will" the atrocities in neighbouring Cambodia?

So, by your own logic, this "God" that you worship and revere is nothing more than sadistic fuck who allows and even "wills" great suffering and death upon millions.

Well, fuck "Him"&#33; :angry:

[Schwarzwald]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 06:06 AM

God chooses our leaders but what they do from there on is not His responsibility

And what if we don&#39;t want "God&#39;s leaders"?

Will he "smite" us? "Cast us out"?

Sorry, but I don&#39;t want a "God" that appints "masters" to "rule over us". If such a "God" did exist, it would be our duty to fight him.

Luckily, of course, "he" is just a superstitious myth ...and one that is rapidly losing influence.


You can deny God&#39;s existence if you want

:lol:

You seem to be confused on the way the logic works.

Allow me to explain.

If you make an insane propositiong, like say there&#39;s an invisible man in the sky, it is up to you to provide evidence for it.

If you are unable to so, we must conclude that your contention is false.

So...what do you got?


Wrong, communism and socialism are fueled on one basic belief that people should get what they deserve

No&#33;

Communism is not based in "belief" in anything.

It is based in the objective materialist analysis of socioeconomic conditions.

"Belief" and "faith" have no place in a civilized society.


But arent Socialists/Communists/Anarchists just instilled with theories and philosophies created by "long dead men", as you put it.

Yes, but we do not accept theese theories "blindly", we demand proof&#33;

Anyone who takes communism "on faith" is not a true communist. "Faith" is the moral enemy of all progressive ideologies.


Vietnam didnt need communism to have a revolution because God willed it to be regardless of whether or not the Vietnamese had read Das Kapital or the Communist Manifesto.

And did "God will" the two million odd deaths that ensued in that war?

Did "God will" the atrocities in neighbouring Cambodia?

So, by your own logic, this "God" that you worship and revere is nothing more than sadistic fuck who allows and even "wills" great suffering and death upon millions.

Well, fuck "Him"&#33; :angry:
If you dont want His leaders than do something about it but I doubt you&#39;ll have much progress and where&#39;d you get the idea that religion is dying? Christianity has billions of followers and Islam will eventually overcome it in numbers as the credibility of communism continues to falter. I cant either prove or dis-prove God&#39;s existence, its faith-based but for those brave enough to get off the high horse of damning God theres all sorts of scripture you can read which you can find proof in if your not to much of a hard-ass. While were talking about proof Ive yet to see a communist or anarchist society unless you count all the dictatorships who call themselves communist. I never said God wanted to see people die; He thought it was time for Vietnam to be free, He enabled them to do it and everything else played itself out. If you die in a just war you go to Heaven as a martyr so I dont see a problem anyhow.

[Schwarzwald]

Also, if theres no God and you all believe in freedom and I feel better with my faith than without it...what do you care if I believe in God or not and if Im the one who has to give proof why are you trying so hard to talk me out of my faith?

[LSD]

and where&#39;d you get the idea that religion is dying?

The number of self-described religious as well as attendance at religious services have been dropping pretty progressively for the past 30 years.


I cant either prove or dis-prove God&#39;s existence

Just like you can&#39;t "prove or dis-prove" the existance of Zeus ...but I take it you don&#39;t believe in him.


its faith-based but for those brave enough to get off the high horse of damning God theres all sorts of scripture you can read which you can find proof in if your not to much of a hard-ass.

:lol:

If it&#39;s "faith-based", then by definition, there&#39;s no "proof", scriptual or otherwise.

And while we&#39;re on the subject, how do you know that this "scripture" is worth the paper its written on?

How do you know that the Muslim "Scripture" is valid, but the Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, Classical Greek, and Zoroastrian ones aren&#39;t?

There is exactly as much evidence supporting the Popul Vah as there is supporting the Koran, but you chose to "believe" in one but not the other.

You, sir, are a hypocrite, a dogmatist, and a superstitious sucker.

And I am forced to ask, as I do to all self-avowed "religious" members of this forum, what is your position on the politicaly controversial statements of your "holy text"?

Do you, like your recently restricted Muslim "brother" death88junkie, feel that homosexuality is "sickening", or in the words of "Allah", "abomination"?

Do you think that women are "weaker" and "more easily fooled"?

Do you think that stoning is a just punnishment for "lewd thoughts"?

Answer carefuly, your "imortal soul" is on the line&#33; :lol:


I never said God wanted to see people die;

Then why doesn&#39;t he "will" that they don&#39;t?

Why doesn&#39;t he end war and murder? Why doesn&#39;t he bring us all into "heaven"?

Still sounds like a sadistic jackass to me. :angry:


Also, if theres no God and you all believe in freedom and I feel better with my faith than without it...what do you care if I believe in God or not

Because your "belief" does not just affect you, it also affects your choices.

A religious population is a reactionary population and a reactionary population can never overthrow oppression.

And that does matter to me.

[Schwarzwald]

Homosexuality is sickening and an abomination and men are above women, you asked I answered. The reason God doesnt do everything you say He should is because that would be tampering with free-will and if He does that He cant tell His followers apart from infidels like you. He gives us free-will and offers His path; if we take it He&#39;ll know whos with Him and whos not but if He forced us all to worship Him than we really wouldnt be His worshippers. Long deal short is He wants us to come to Him of our free will. Its better than waiting for a revolution that will never come.

[DisIllusion]

The reason God doesnt do everything you say He should is because that would be tampering with free-will and if He does that He cant tell His followers apart from infidels like you. He gives us free-will and offers His path; if we take it He&#39;ll know whos with Him and whos not but if He forced us all to worship Him than we really wouldnt be His worshippers.

So let me get this straight; "He" got bored one day and made us. He made us imperfect on purpose so it would be more interesting. He gives us free will, as long as we carry out His will with it. And if we don&#39;t abide by all his rules on this "test" of a world, we all go to hell. But before we leave this earth, we have to be labelled and ridiculed as "infidels" and "unbelievers" and continually have all sorts of religion pushed on us, not just Islam.

Sounds pretty sadistical to me.


Its better than waiting for a revolution that will never come.

Better to work for something better on this earth that we know exists than to blindly hope for something better in the next. If said afterworld exists. Bit of a gamble there eh? With all the other religions condemning all who don&#39;t believe in their religion?

[LSD]

The reason God doesnt do everything you say He should is because that would be tampering with free-will and if He does that He cant tell His followers apart from infidels like you.

And why does he want to do that?

Why even have "followers"?

"He" created an entire universe and race of people just so that they could all sit around and worship his fat lazy ass?

You know what, he&#39;s not just a sadistic bastard, he&#39;s a narcisist too&#33;


He gives us free-will and offers His path;

But he&#39;s omnipotent, right? So he created all the conditions that lead us to make our decision. And he&#39;s omniscient, so he already knows what decision we&#39;ll make.

In other words, you are contending that there is an infinitely powerful being that knows all there is to know and sees all there is to see who decided to construct a world entirely under his control, knowing full well that the majority of people in it would suffer, but choses to do nothing about it. Instead, he dropped little tiny clues about his existance, only in the middle east, but also left giant pieces of evidence disproving his existance just to test whether or not people would have "faith" and willingly abandon the rational minds that he had endowed them with in the first place&#33;

Now, the obvious question here is ...WHY???


Homosexuality is sickening and an abomination and men are above women

SIGH...

What&#39;s with the crazy rash of fanatical Muslims lately?

Consider yourself warned, restricted, and polled for banning.

[DisIllusion]

Consider yourself warned, restricted, and polled for banning.

Why is he being polled for banning? Restricting is fine because he&#39;s just preaching typical religious rhetoric.

[Schwarzwald]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 07:38 AM


But he&#39;s omnipotent, right, so he created all the conditions that lead us to make our decision. And he&#39;s omniscient, so he already knows what decision we&#39;ll make.

In other words, you are contending that there is an infinitely powerful being that knows all there is to know and sees all there is to see who decided to construct a world entirely under his control, knowing full well that the majority of people in it would suffer, but choses to do nothing about it. Instead, he dropped little tiny clues about his existance, only in the middle east, but also left giant pieces of evidence disproving his existance just to test whether or not people would have "faith" and willingly abandon the rational minds that he had endowed them with in the first place&#33;

Yes.

PS. Dont ban me, he asked a question and I answered it.

[LSD]

Yes.

...OK.

Again, though, WHY?


PS. Dont ban me, he asked a question and I answered it.

And that answer indicated that you are a homophobe and a sexist. Two things that are not tolerated on this board.

Your poll is currently before the CC. If it were up to me, though, I would have already banned you.

[Schwarzwald]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 08:09 AM


WHY?

Why not?

[LSD]

Why not create a create a world full of suffering when you just as easily not?

Why not give a race the ability to use rational thought and then demand that they not use it?

Ostensibly because you&#39;re a decent person.

Certainly any being worthy of "worhip" would not commit such monstrous deeds. But then again, that&#39;s why religious attendance is dropping isn&#39;t it?

It doesn&#39;t make any fucking sense&#33; :lol:

[Schwarzwald]

Neither does it make sence that 100 years after Marx&#39;s death people still go along with his theories with no results except continuous failure.

[LSD]

Does that mean that you can&#39;t answer the question?

How typical... <_<

[Schwarzwald]

Of course I cant answer the question, God is ultimately unknowable.

[LSD]

Then what fucking good is "He"?

We have no evidence that "He" exists, and even if "He" did, all indications are that he&#39;s a sadistic narcistic with no interest other than his own glorification.

"Unknowable"? Maybe that&#39;s because no one wants to know such a lowlife scumbag.

I certainly wouldn&#39;t invite a creep like that into my home&#33;

[Schwarzwald]

Dont be suprised if some sort of catastrophe comes upon you.

[boosh logic]

Wow that last post is a bit extreme - and moronic. What is so important about your god that he will smite down anyone who doesn&#39;t believe in him. Hes quite egotistical really, I mean, he never admits hes wrong, what he says goes, the list goes on. You are one oppressed *****&#33;

[Schwarzwald]

Im not oppressed, if anything Im blessed.

[Schwarzwald]

Am I the only person here who believes in God?

[RedAnarchist]

You are blessed alright... with naivety, the sheep mentality and a subservient mind. Why not try to be your own master for a while? You will like it, i&#39;m sure.

[Schwarzwald]

Dont get me wrong; Im a class-conscious socialist specialized in radical politics but Im also a Muslim and I have a right to my beliefs.

[RedAnarchist]

I have nothing against people who have religions, it is their beliefs that I dislike.

[LSD]

Dont get me wrong; Im a class-conscious socialist specialized in radical politics but Im also a Muslim and I have a right to my beliefs.

Not when those beliefs extend to the shaping of society. Not when they contribute to the oppression of women and homosexuals.

Then you are just as bad as the capitalists you supposedly oppose. You are keeping the workers seperate by perpetuating divisive superstitions and anachronistic hates.

A reactionary people can never be revolution and religion is always reactioanry.

[boosh logic]

I don&#39;t believe in your god - I&#39;m an Olympian, I worship Zeus, Apollo, Mars, Dionysis, Posseidon - but not Aphrodite, because my mind has been brainwashed by my beliefs to think that you shouldn&#39;t make love unless you have a certificate saying you are binded together.

Do you believe in your God because your family raised you that way? If so, then you have been blinded - let me explain:

So you believe in it because you grew up in a Muslim family

This means you have to accept that if you had been brought up in a Christian/Jewish/Hindu/Sikh etc family then you would follow their ways

Therefore you have no justifyable reason for believing in it, other than you refuse to ignore the lie.

Its just like santa clause, ain&#39;t it?

[Schwarzwald]

I was born Christian and was Christian my entire life, raised in an all Christian family until I converted to Islam five months ago. Im not sexist or homophobic either; although I see men as superior I still think women are deserving in justice and equal treatment as any other human and although I dont agree with the act of homosexuality doesnt mean I hate gay people, gays deserve equality and justice also.

[LSD]

although I dont agree with the act of homosexuality doesnt mean I hate gay people

Yes it does.


Im not sexist

I see men as superior

see Hypocrite (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hypocrite).

[Schwarzwald]

LSD...I cant begin to describe how pig-headed you are.

[RedAnarchist]

here he goes with the ad hominem attacks :lol:

[LSD]

LSD...I cant begin to describe how pig-headed you are.

:lol:

That&#39;s quite rich coming from an admitted chavinist.

Anyway, that&#39;s flaming. Warning point given.

[Schwarzwald]

Flaming like you, homo. Give me another one.

[RedAnarchist]

Why do trolls bother? Surely even they must grow up eventually.

[Schwarzwald]

If growing up means denouncing the center of my life, my religion, my God than screw that. You grow up.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 12:16 PM
If growing up means denouncing the center of my life, my religion, my God than screw that. You grow up.
The centre of your life that you arrived at 5 months ago?

Regardless, you clearly have no place on a communist forum.

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 12:07 PM
Flaming like you, homo. Give me another one.
I was referring to this quote actually.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 09:12 PM
I&#39;m asking you what is a moral?
It&#39;s a collection of idea&#39;s on how human beings should interact with each other.


Is it given from God or some other higher being?

God or a "higher being" doesn&#39;t exist.


Should we follow "morals"?

In terms of anarchism, that&#39;s an interesting question. Peter Kropotkin wrote an essay called &#39;Anarchist Morality&#39; (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/kropotkin-peter/1897/morality.htm) in which he claims that the only "moral" an anarchist should have is: "don&#39;t do what you would not want done to yourself."

Is that a moral? It could be described as one I suppose and I would say that was the only "moral" I followed.

Other than that, no one should "follow" morals.

[commiecrusader]

As long as they aren&#39;t detrimental to others, follow as many morals as you want I think, pretty much. Why you would need more morals than TAT&#39;s one though I don&#39;t know...

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 07:39 AM
I was born Christian and was Christian my entire life, raised in an all Christian family until I converted to Islam five months ago. Im not sexist or homophobic either; although I see men as superior I still think women are deserving in justice and equal treatment as any other human and although I dont agree with the act of homosexuality doesnt mean I hate gay people, gays deserve equality and justice also.
Thats like saying slavery is ok if the slaves are treated well. You are a hypocrite and a religious moron. I like how you resort to the "lighting will strike you down" threat just like Pat Robertson does. Guess what, it never happens. Your god is not fucking real and we are gonna fucking remove your way of thought from society by putting all your historical objects in history mueseums, to tearing down your mosques/churches/synogogs. We will also shoot your priests too if they spout out your scripture and take it 100% literally as the word of god.

[Schwarzwald]

Now whos the hypocrite? You say communism is freedom and that it protects the worker&#39;s rights but if he has another opinion you shoot him, sounds like Stalinist dictatorship you advocate instead of socialist democracy.

[commiecrusader]

Democracy is the mask of capitalism. In socialism people would only be shot in extreme circumstances. The truth of the matter is that once socialism kicks in people won&#39;t need to look to a &#39;higher being&#39; to make the &#39;here and now&#39; tolerable. Religion will die its death, and along with it, the careers of priests and preachers. Sorry Schwarzwald

[DisIllusion]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 12:22 PM
Now whos the hypocrite? You say communism is freedom and that it protects the worker&#39;s rights but if he has another opinion you shoot him, sounds like Stalinist dictatorship you advocate instead of socialist democracy.
Remember that religion, chauvinism, and any phobia against another lifestyle are all considered reactionary , which have no place in a Communist/Socialist world.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 04:22 PM
Now whos the hypocrite? You say communism is freedom and that it protects the worker&#39;s rights but if he has another opinion you shoot him, sounds like Stalinist dictatorship you advocate instead of socialist democracy.
Bullshit arguement and you know it too. I dont advocate socialist democracy, I advocate revolution and the instant destruction of the bourgeois state and in its place workers direct democracy. Now people who are religious and keep it to themselves, thast fine, but when they start organizing churches they must be supressed. Organized religion is a tool of supression and indoctrinization and reaction, therefore its a direct threat the workers revolution. No fucking priest will stand in communisms way.

[Kittie Rose]

Morality should have nothing to do with religion, or any of this "Moral Relativity" rubbish. It should be based on a logical construct determining possible beneficial or harmful outcomes and how concious the perpretrator is of them.