Is it wrong to be patriotic [Archive]

The Grey Blur

18th December 2005, 19:23

Well, I'm Irish and I'm sort of 'unconciously' patriotic. For example, I partake in general Irish culture, I support Glasgow Celtic 'cause they're the 'Irish' team, etc.

Considering how the British have tried to supress and destroy Irish culture for hundreds of years it's not really surprising that I'm proud to be Irish.

I still recognize that people are divided more by class than nationality.

*In case I'm confusing you* - It's best explained by Connolly in his essays on Socialism & Nationalism and his practical invention of Irish Republicanism.

Socialism & Nationalism (http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1897/01/socnat.htm)

Socialism & Irish Patriotism (http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1897/xx/scirenat.htm)

Fidelbrand

18th December 2005, 19:36

Well, I think it is at least better than being capitalistic, so i leave room for myself and other comrades if they "feel" or are nationalistic (without being racist). :)

bolshevik butcher

18th December 2005, 19:52

I'd say that rpide in oyur country was foolish. I'm scottish, well kidna, My dad's engllish and mums sides ukranian. Im quite interetsd in Ukrnaian culture but I wouldnt say i was 'proud' of anything.

Tekun

18th December 2005, 20:00

Personally, instead of being proud of my country, I take pride in my family heritage and history
And in my case, my family has a history of socialism and revolution :D
There are too many evils in regards to nationalism
I was born in Guatemala and live in the US, but by no means do I support or am I proud of both these plutocracies

norwegian commie

18th December 2005, 20:04

its not wrong to be proud of your countrie!
it is ntural that you like the foootballl team of your countrie and is fond of the place you live.
People need to "identify" themselves with somethings, they need to be part of a community a place they share with people.
being proud of this is not wrong and is actually weary natural!

what is fucked up is amerikan patriotism with the phrases: god bless amerika.
and attitudes that amerika is the greatest nation, has the power to do anything.
it bringes forth arrogance and racism.
Amerika being the only super power in the world, nationalism florish.

any body who has even seen amerikan movie knows what im talking about.

I'd Rather Be Drinking

18th December 2005, 20:06

Is it wrong to be nationalist? No. But we're not interested in morality. Nationalism and communism are diametrically opposed. A communist revolution would destroy all nations and states.
To the extent that you still support these things, you'll be fighting against communism.

viva le revolution

18th December 2005, 20:15

A communist is without doubt a patriot. He expresses solidarity with his people and is unafraid to lay down his life for them. His loyalty is to his people not to his country, what is it but a pile of dirt.

Fidelbrand

18th December 2005, 20:31

Originally posted by I'd Rather Be [email protected] 19 2005, 04:06 AM
But we're not interested in morality.
I am.

RevolverNo9

18th December 2005, 20:34

I don't think it's wrong to 'enjoy' your own culture, as it were. There are minor traditions which are merely colourful - supporting a football team, an Irish carnival, Russian drinking tables etc...

The difficluties occur in any notion which declares one tradition or the other to be 'superiour'. This is profoundly irrational and only breeds strife and emphasises humankind's differences over what is in common.

To be simply 'proud' of one's completely arbitrary national deliniation is of course baseless. Always respond to such sentiments with the question: 'Why do I think that?'

Hegemonicretribution

19th December 2005, 00:35

Originally posted by Fidelbrand+Dec 18 2005, 08:31 PM--> (Fidelbrand @ Dec 18 2005, 08:31 PM)
I'd Rather Be [email protected] 19 2005, 04:06 AM
But we're not interested in morality.
I am. [/b]
Even capitalist morality? Religious morality?It can be useful to disregard morality as much as possible when making rational judgement. I wouldn't say that someone that was proud was neccessarily reactionary, but they must realise this is a particuarly irrational part of their character.

Dark Exodus

19th December 2005, 00:58

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 06:10 PM
To be ashamed of your heritage would be as stupid as being proud of it. You don't choose who your ancestors were or where you were born. However, may I ask you why you're "damn proud to be Canadian"? Any particular reason?
My views exactly, you did not choose it, you did not earn it, you did not work for it, you have no right to be proud of it.

FidelCastro

19th December 2005, 03:50

I am proud to be Canadian because I know I live in a country that was voted by the U.N. as the best place in the world to live. Canadians in general are very friendly, I have first hand experiance with that. I am proud to be able to walk through a Chinese neighbourhood, and Italian neighbour hood or an Black neighbourhood and not fear a bullet. I am proud to live in a country with strict gun-laws. However, there are some things about Canada I am ashamed about. I'm not going to go through all of those but the main one is our treatment of Native people. They live in shit and the government does nothing and that is just plain wrong. The bad however, doesn't outweigh the good.

I'm proud to be Irish because I live like a stereotypical Irishman. I go to the pub and I have fun, I have a lot of sex with women who I don't even now their names (I do not however, believe in paying for sex). If you get angry at me because of that I shall retort with the fact that Che got a lot of ass. He had sex with his parents housemaid in the kitchen while the family was in the dining room eating supper............when he was around 15-16. I see nothing wrong with it and neither did Che.

Really, it isn't the country i'm proud of, it is the people in it. Of course there are some bad people but the good outweighs the bad. I enjoy my countries customs, they aren't better than anyone elses. They are the customs I like and someone else may enjoy other ones. It is like someone's sexuality. One may be gay or straight but I don't care if someone is gay (i'm straight). They enjoy what they do and I enjoy what I do.

Janus

19th December 2005, 04:20

It is the desire of many to belong to some type of group, but this shouldn't be taken to far. You should free yourself from the petty squablings of the different nations that only worry about their self-interest. Take a lesson or two from the socialist parties that were caught up in the blind chauvinism during World War I. However, I still don't see how your personal life has anything to do with this discussion.

FidelCastro

19th December 2005, 04:54

I was asked why I was proud of my Irish heritage and Canadian Heritage. I act like an Irishman and I'm proud of it.

kingbee

19th December 2005, 12:17

It is an anthropological fact that people define their identity on both similarities with others, but also on their differences. I have found that by moving to university in England, I am a lot prouder of my Welsh place of birth- most of it is to do with the language and culture, but also the fact that many people are so ignorant about it drive me to be even prouder.

But patriotism to different countries have different variables, therefore most forms are going to be different.

norwegian commie

23rd December 2005, 18:07

am proud to be Canadian because I know I live in a country that was voted by the U.N. as the best place in the world to live

Norway was woted as the best place to ive in by the UN
i dont give a fuck.

Jimmie Higgins

23rd December 2005, 18:32

The problem with patriotism is it means you are not identifying with peple based on class. I'm not saying that this is what you are doing... just patriotism in general.

Patriotism would suggest that I have more in common and more mutual intrests with Bill Gates because we were both born in the US than I would with someone born a few hundred miles away in Mexico.

In the US there was a surge in patriotism after the world trade center was hit and I don't think initially it was a pro-war sentiment or anything like that, but an expression of solidarity with people in NYC. But then this was used by the ruling class to invade Afganistan and there were lots of photo-ops with bush wearing a hard hat with rescue teams. SO this "patriotism" was ready made to help our rulers convince people that their intrests were the same as Bush's rather than other poor people in Afganistan. In fact, our intrests are more alligned with people in afganistan who want to be able to live without worrying about bombs being dropped on them so that some clique of powerful rich people could become more powerful. In fact, Bush has more in common with Bin Lauden than he does with US workers.

I am proud of some aspects of US pop-culture and definately proud of some of the history of working class movements in the US, but I am more proud to be an internationalist.

Body Count

23rd December 2005, 18:36

I'm proud to be apart of the human race.

I'm proud that we have went from a barbaric species to what we have today.

At the same time however, I am ashamed of some of the things we have done as well.

Jazzy

23rd December 2005, 19:49

There is nothing wrong with being proud of who you are or your heritage or where your from just as long as you know that all that doesn't make you superior to others......

Ownthink

23rd December 2005, 20:01

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 02:49 PM
There is nothing wrong with being proud of who you are or your heritage or where your from just as long as you know that all that doesn't make you superior to others......
But being "proud" of where you're from does breed "superior" nationalistic emotions, even if not intended.

Dark Exodus

23rd December 2005, 20:20

Canadians in general are very friendly, I have first hand experiance with that.

No you don't.

Unless you know at least 50% of Canadas population very well?

Fidelbrand

24th December 2005, 16:22

Originally posted by Hegemonicretribution+Dec 19 2005, 08:35 AM--> (Hegemonicretribution @ Dec 19 2005, 08:35 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 08:31 PM

I'd Rather Be [email protected] 19 2005, 04:06 AM
But we're not interested in morality.
I am.
Even capitalist morality? Religious morality? [/b]
cheers~ Thanks for cutting it short for me! :ph34r:

Body Count

26th December 2005, 01:33

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 07:49 PM
There is nothing wrong with being proud of who you are or your heritage or where your from just as long as you know that all that doesn't make you superior to others......
I personally don't see the PURPOSE. You can't chose any of this. Also, if you didn't DO what you are "proud" of, whats the purpose?

I've always thought of this thinking as somewhat primitive. (Not disrespecting you, just saying, it seems rather useless today).

bolshevik butcher

26th December 2005, 13:00

I agree. There's nothing wrong with taking part in cultural activites and supporting your national football team, but when it comes to ebing patriotic, that's just devisive. It makes the working classes of differenct nation seem like enemies. We see it in action in Scotland through the SSPs nationalism.

kingbee

26th December 2005, 14:19

But where are all of you from then? How big are the nationalist feelings there?

Because, being from Wales, I feel that those who speak out against nationalism have had no experience of it whatsoever.

Don't knock it 'till you've tried it :P

Body Count

26th December 2005, 15:37

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 02:19 PM
But where are all of you from then? How big are the nationalist feelings there?

Because, being from Wales, I feel that those who speak out against nationalism have had no experience of it whatsoever.

Don't knock it 'till you've tried it :P
Black American

I've witnessed my fair share of black pride, American pride, African race pride, etc etc etc....but the truth is that while racism exist heavily in every class, rich people only seem to be around other rich people, middle around middle, working around working, etc etc etc.

I just personally don't see what the big deal of "culture" is.....people will live how they are told/how others around them live. With the right social engineering you could make people live there lives practically anyway you pleased (America anyone?) I tend to think that with industrialization, most "old customs" tend to deteriorate anyways. Some groups of people and individuals tend to try and "hold on" to these ways of life, but it would appear to me that for the most part, these are just imitations of the past.

Not that I'm for western nations bullying there way into poor countries and bullying people to fit some so called "civilized" way of life........but, I hope that one day, everyone has a sturdy house and not something made of mud or trees or something that is not as comfortable.

I'd like to know what you find so appealing about nationalism. Not trying to be condescending either, I just don't see how someone on the rev left could be for it.

Atlas Swallowed

26th December 2005, 17:06

The only use I have for my nations flag is to blow my nose or wipe my ass with it. We are all humanbeings does it matter what plot of dirt we happen to be born on? We did not choose our governments, what is thier to be proud of?

kingbee

16th February 2006, 15:29

We did not choose our governments, what is thier to be proud of?

It's different in every case. In my case, it's pride in a language that has survived 800 years of systematic oppression. That pride in the language is manifested in the symbol of the Welsh flag, it's history, it's culture and, most of all, the rugby team.

drain.you

17th February 2006, 00:38

If you get angry at me because of that I shall retort with the fact that Che got a lot of ass. He had sex with his parents housemaid in the kitchen while the family was in the dining room eating supper............when he was around 15-16. I see nothing wrong with it and neither did Che.

lol. Okay, the majority of people support Che here and myself included but he was not by any means the ideal person. I hate it when people justify their actions by saying that a certain person did the same and I hate it when people justify their arguement by quoting Marx or someone. They are our heroes, they were great people but you can't say that you are in the right because someone else did the same thing.
To cut my rant short, I don't agree with you (or anyone else, for that matter) treating womyn as sex objects and that seems the case as you say that you 'I don't even now their names' so you appear to have little interest in them other than sex. Thats horrible and don't justify it by saying someone else did so its okay for you to.

Suprisingly enough I don't agree with patriotism either as it can quickly escalate to nationalism, as seen with many sporting events when they are on a european or global stage. The only time I agree with nationalism is when a country is supressed or being invaded, otherwise it can become imperalistic and/or racist. I don't see how people become so proud of their countries and such. Its all dirt and rocks, I know that I could live anywhere in the world and still be who I am because my nationality does not dictate who I am entirely. I am a human, a creature on the planet earth and so are you, we shouldn't fight over land and discriminate people for being a different nationality to ourselves: we should be free to go anywhere and be proud of the world we live in.

Is it wrong to be patriotic?
Is it wrong to be a nazi?

Seong

17th February 2006, 01:41

I don't really have anything against patriotism, I just feel that it undermines feelings of pride in and connection to a global community. I don't care that much for my country. I love it because it's where a grew up an most of my good memories (and alot of bad ones) are here. My country is part of who I am but I don't believe that it does, or should, define me as a person.

Dark Exodus

17th February 2006, 03:13

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 03:56 PM

We did not choose our governments, what is thier to be proud of?

It's different in every case. In my case, it's pride in a language that has survived 800 years of systematic oppression. That pride in the language is manifested in the symbol of the Welsh flag, it's history, it's culture and, most of all, the rugby team.
Thats nice, so what did you do to be born in Wales?

piet11111

17th February 2006, 14:44

i hate my country with a passion its entire history is based on the exploitation of the working class and slavery.
(im from the netherlands)

our wars against foreign enemy's have made twisted aspects like merchants paying the poor to retreive cannon balls that they sold to our very own enemy's.
then you have it that we did an huge amount of colonialism for such a small country and we where the first slave traders.
the netherlands also where the most efficient collaborators with the nazi's (though we also had the largest % of resistance fighters)

though i am a frisian we used to be very independant and rebellious from the rest of the country and that never changed.

but a country is nothing more then a slab of land you call your own.
i think its more apropriate to take pride in my own actions.

rioters bloc

17th February 2006, 15:12

i don't think i'm 'patriotic', but i do feel as though i have a slightly larger sense of solidarity with people in bangladesh than i do with people from other countries. however, i don't think that that would be the case if bangladesh wasn't a third-world country fucked over by colonialism. in the same way, i have a sense of solidarity with oppressed peoples all over the world. i think it manifests itself in bangladesh because i go there regularly and almost all my family is there. it puts a more personal touch on it, which makes it easier to relate to/empathise with.

i've spent 80% of my life in australia, yet i have no ties to it, or feel any sense of belonging. i don't know why that is, but i think it could have something to do with the fact that the government and too large a slice of the population would prefer it if i and other 'immigints' would just leave.

kingbee

26th March 2006, 10:50

Thats nice, so what did you do to be born in Wales?

Do we really want to bring chance up in all of this?

If we do, we can bring it up in everything: why should the proletariat be socialist?

After all, what did they do to be born in the working class?

Face the music

26th March 2006, 11:13

I belong to human species. My loyalty lays there rather than the imaginary borders between them.

kingbee

26th March 2006, 11:50

Yes, but my loyalty and pride also happens to lie in the language and culture around me. That doesn't mean I don't respect other cultures however, as it is natural to have some type of pride in your upbringing and surroundings.

kingbee

26th March 2006, 16:16

but i think it could have something to do with the fact that the government and too large a slice of the population would prefer it if i and other 'immigints' would just leave.

How ironic!

Revolutionary Dave

26th March 2006, 16:18

Kingbee-Love the avater. Screamadelica was a kick ass album

I'd be more patriotic if I felt had something to be proud of.

Face the music

26th March 2006, 16:46

Yes, but my loyalty and pride also happens to lie in the language and culture around me

I've spoken two languages in my life (= I don't live in the country I was born for nearly equal time I live in another one). I've learnt many more languages, beneath them all is universal humanity. French person does not cry any differently to me than I do.

as it is natural to have some type of pride in your upbringing and surroundings

It is human beings who bring you up and your enviroment that surrounds you, that it has a label of a country and legitimised territorial insticts - that should not play a role in the bigger picture. One may be loyal to one's language and people, but does that have to be of more importance than any other? Pride is a luxury.

People who speak other language and have another culture are murdered for being 'unlucky' to be born in a different place than us and as such inferior or treated with lesser dignity afforded to the co-patriots.

'Divided we fall and united we stand'.

It may seem I advocate globalisation but not really, I just want to see it stoped that we are dehumanising anybody who is not like us. To acknowledge our humanity rather than nationality which is imaginary.

BillHicks

26th March 2006, 17:22

Nationalism and Patriotism do not mean one needs to buy into the mythopeia behind their construction. In an age of increasing globalization, nationalist movements and an identification with the nation-state rather than the marketplace is paramount in at least slowing the bastards down.

FinnMacCool

26th March 2006, 21:04

No theres nothing wrong with being patriotic. I myself am not patriotic though I am proud of my Irish heritage. There IS something wrong with blind patriotism but what people confuse many times is that patriotism should be love of country not, neccesarily, love of government.

enigma2517

27th March 2006, 00:05

But wait, if you love your country, doesn't that mean you're giving it special treatment? i.e. loving other countries (people) less? What isn't wrong with that?

For those of us in the first world, it just perpetuates an irrational paradigm. It is much like religion, because we say the same things: "theres nothing wrong with being religious unless you go on a crusade and kill a bunch of people"

Patriotism will almost always lead into some kind of crusade, just like religion, not because those people are "bad" or "immoral" but because the whole line of reasoning has no logical foundation!

Foot in the door, accepting first the small lies, then the big ones. Even if that DOESN'T happen its still not progressive.

Now, national liberation movements can be a different story. If you're fighting for self-determination and resisting imperialism then thats progressive for both parties involved.

Eleutherios

27th March 2006, 00:23

If you say your country has particular good qualities, what you're saying is that other countries have particular bad qualities. When you say people are generally nice in Canada, you are suggesting that people are not as nice elsewhere. Would you care to elaborate on which countries have meaner people and why they're inherently meaner?

If we are going to have a successful revolution, we have to make it known that our interests are not determined by the arbitrary geographical lines set up by the capitalists or the origin of the people we happen to be born to, but rather our class standing. All forms of patriotism/nationalism/racism will necessarily detract from this goal. Don't wave your country's flag unless it's burning.

anomaly

27th March 2006, 00:33

I live in the United States. I neither love my government nor love my country.

So, yea, patriotism, unless one is using patriotism to fight imperialism, is silly.

Black Dagger

27th March 2006, 10:12

In an age of increasing globalization, nationalist movements and an identification with the nation-state rather than the marketplace is paramount in at least slowing the bastards down

Are you talking about people living in 'western' countries identifying with 'their' nation states?

FinnMacCool

27th March 2006, 11:31

If you say your country has particular good qualities, what you're saying is that other countries have particular bad qualities.

So if I say I love my girlfriend, does that mean I'm saying that all other peoples girlfriends have inferior qualities and thats wrong? Bollocks.

Qwerty Dvorak

27th March 2006, 18:30

I think the main problem with loving one's country, from a Communist point of view, is that the nation is supposed to be a temporary concept, and that as we progress towards true Communism borders and nations will slowly fade away, until finally we are all one race under Communism. Therefore, it would be considered reactionary to support the concept of the nation.

27th March 2006, 18:42

lol its okay to be patriotic as long as its towards a good country. I'm a Cuban/Chinese/French/Soviet/Pan-Latin-American/Arab patriot and Anti-American!

FinnMacCool

27th March 2006, 20:24

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 01:51 PM
lol its okay to be patriotic as long as its towards a good country. I'm a Cuban/Chinese/French/Soviet/Pan-Latin-American/Arab patriot and Anti-American!
What's wrong with America?

bezdomni

27th March 2006, 21:50

Patriotism is a watered down form of nationalism, nationalism is contrary to internationalism, internationalism is revolutionary whereas nationalism is not. Therefore, patriotism is a watered down form of counter-revolutionary nationalism.

Anyway, patriotism is foolish. Why should you be proud about something which you had no control over? What makes your country "better" than the rest and what makes the inhabitants of that country better? Boundaries are arbitrary lines drawn in the sand and they do nothing more than divide humanity.

Patriotism/nationalism is the tool of bourgeois oppression.

anomaly

27th March 2006, 21:56

Originally posted by TragicClown
lol its okay to be patriotic as long as its towards a good country. I'm a Cuban/Chinese/French/Soviet/Pan-Latin-American/Arab patriot and Anti-American!
There are no 'good countries'. The only countries I support are those fighting imperialism. However, once they win the fight against imperialism, they will likely become imperialists themselves (China and Russia are great examples).

So, it's never 'okay' to be patriotic. We should be for mankind, not for any silly 'nations'.

kingbee

30th March 2006, 10:01

Anyway, patriotism is foolish.
What makes your country "better" than the rest and what makes the inhabitants of that country better? Boundaries are arbitrary lines drawn in the sand and they do nothing more than divide humanity.

I think people have a misguided view of patriotism. Perhaps there are different forms, but as a Welsh patriot, I don't believe that my country is "better" than anyone other country.

I just have pride in my language and culture after years of oppression. Is that wrong? I thought socialists were supposed to support the oppressed.

Why should you be proud about something which you had no control over?

I don't have control over the class I was born in. Nor has anyone else. Should class consciousness thus go out of the window?

Patriotism is a watered down form of nationalism, nationalism is contrary to internationalism, internationalism is revolutionary whereas nationalism is not. Therefore, patriotism is a watered down form of counter-revolutionary nationalism.

That is a very reductionist viewpoint.

What makes you decide what is "revolutionary" and what is not?

Ho Chi Minh was revolutionary wasn't he? Mao? Kim? Weren't all they promoters of the nation to begin?

Patriotism/nationalism is the tool of bourgeois oppression.

What makes you say this? Because I am proud of my language and my upbringing, does that mean that I am "oppressed"? How so? Does that mean I've been stupid and ideologically oppressed all this time?

I just don't think there is any harm in being patriotic. Patriotism comes from pride, an emotion, which is natural. You can't suddenly throw anything natural out of the window.

Wanted Man

30th March 2006, 11:05

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/...d-book/ch18.htm (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/works/red-book/ch18.htm)

STI

30th March 2006, 12:02

I just have pride in my language and culture after years of oppression.

Why have pride in that stuff?

It's not "wrong" in any moralistic sense of the word, it's just a bad idea.

RaiseYourVoice

30th March 2006, 14:00

There will always be a special relationship to were we come from, that is natural and no system will change that. The problem is not to love the woods you come from or the nice house or whatever. The problem is that nationalism becomes a dividing element which it should not be. how is the workers situation in one capitalist country different than in another? there are differences, but the situation as such is the same in every of these societies.

People say the USA sucks. Misstake number 1, how do you want to achieve WORLD revolution if you exclude a whole nation? communism is NOT exclusive its for everybody. Taking borders that only exist on in a book as something you love is counter productive.

kingbee

30th March 2006, 14:40

It's not "wrong" in any moralistic sense of the word, it's just a bad idea.

Can I ask why you think that?

Dr Mindbender

30th March 2006, 18:48

It really depends how you define 'patriotism'. Many would argue that the most 'patriotic' thing you can do is hold your leaders accountable for their mistakes (which the neo-cons tend to ignore or make excuses for) therefore communists/revolutionaries are actually more patriotic than the brain dead flag-wavers. I think theres a difference between patriotism and jingoism.

Personally, I attach a greater sense of civic pride towards my home city as opposed to my home 'country'. I would class my home city as Belfast, and in many ways its a place I attach many fond childhood memories to. I love the architecture, and particularly the history as we built the Titanic, and produced the linen, textiles and ships that went a long way towards fighting the nazis during the war.

Xanthus

30th March 2006, 19:01

I'm from Canada too, and yes, I do and will continue to cheer for the hockey team.

However, when I think of Canada in general, I don't see the happy, wonderful place that CBC dramas try to make it. I see a nation rich from imperialism. I see the nation with the 5th largest amount of direct forign investment of any country in the world, which is quite shocking considering Canada's relatively small population. I see very clearly that the factors (besides it's wide open spaces, which are quite nice) which make Canada the "best place to live in" according to the UN are a direct result of our ruling class exploiting most of the world and funneling money back here into Canada.

I also see a traditon of oppression of working Candians exactly the same as in any other capitalist country. I see a highly reactionary prime minister, and equally reactionary leaders of our four largest provinces (Quebec, Ontario, Alberta, and BC), who are effectively trying to end the right to strike. Here in BC not only has tons of back-to-work legislation been passed but whole industries such as construction have had all their unions busted. I see a history of large corperations buying up the "right" to harvest Canada's vast resources, such that ordinary people see none of the benefit from them. I see our armies currently occupying two forign countries (Haiti and Afganistan) and aiding the US in their occupation of Iraq, all to further our ruling class' imperialist goals.

So no, I'm not proud to be a Canadian... I will however still cheer for the hockey team, because it's where I was born and I have to cheer for someone's team, eh?

Dr Mindbender

30th March 2006, 19:09

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 07:10 PM
I'm from Canada too, and yes, I do and will continue to cheer for the hockey team.

However, when I think of Canada in general, I don't see the happy, wonderful place that CBC dramas try to make it. I see a nation rich from imperialism. I see the nation with the 5th largest amount of direct forign investment of any country in the world, which is quite shocking considering Canada's relatively small population. I see very clearly that the factors (besides it's wide open spaces, which are quite nice) which make Canada the "best place to live in" according to the UN are a direct result of our ruling class exploiting most of the world and funneling money back here into Canada.

I also see a traditon of oppression of working Candians exactly the same as in any other capitalist country. I see a highly reactionary prime minister, and equally reactionary leaders of our four largest provinces (Quebec, Ontario, Alberta, and BC), who are effectively trying to end the right to strike. Here in BC not only has tons of back-to-work legislation been passed but whole industries such as construction have had all their unions busted. I see a history of large corperations buying up the "right" to harvest Canada's vast resources, such that ordinary people see none of the benefit from them. I see our armies currently occupying two forign countries (Haiti and Afganistan) and aiding the US in their occupation of Iraq, all to further our ruling class' imperialist goals.

So no, I'm not proud to be a Canadian... I will however still cheer for the hockey team, because it's where I was born and I have to cheer for someone's team, eh?
Thats a good point actually about representation of sports teams. After the global revolution and all countries have been eradicated, this'll turn the Olympics into something of a one-horse race, wont it? :D

LoneRed

30th March 2006, 19:18

I dont support countries, I support people

mscommieparty

31st March 2006, 12:59

i have a lot of polish heritage. im proud of that. i was born in america. im not proud of that. americans think that they have a lot of culture. this is the most untrue thing that i have ever heard. i was sitting in my room one day, and i realized that we as a country have no 'good' culture. other than gangbanging, drug-using whores, we have nothing. and none of those qualities are anything to be proud of. we should have something, but clearly we dont. im not saying that we should improve as a country, but as communists in that country.

Abood

31st March 2006, 14:05

kingbee

31st March 2006, 16:39

Why are people proud of being born wherever they were born in? Or having whatever ancestors they have? You don't control where you come from or who your ancestors are, therefore you can't be proud or ashamed about it.

You can only be proud of what you choose to be. For example, I'm proud of being a marxist. I'm proud that I'm open-minded.

I will repeat this point again, as no one seems to listen to it: if we are going to bring chance into this (i.e. you can't choose your birthplace, and therefore there's no point being proud of it), then why be a Marxist? Especially if you are one of the proletariat, because you didn't choose to be born into the working class.

Being proud of your country is wrong. patriotism is the opium of the masses. One of the reasons people don't rebel against their government is because they have to like it. Patriotism blindens someone away from the corruption in the government.

Firstly, why is being proud of your country wrong? How is it "the opium of the masses"?

Secondly, being patriotic doesn't mean supporting your government at every turn. It simply means being proud of your culture, your language, your background etc.

RaiseYourVoice

31st March 2006, 18:21

Noah

31st March 2006, 18:42

I'm proud to be Iraqi, nothing will stop that. I eat Arabic food and like it, have Arabic ancestors, surrounded by other Arabic aspects of culture although I live in England.

I don't see why I shouldn't be 'dam proud to be Iraqi' in my area i'm surrounded by racists who hate Arabs, I want them to know that we are also people and not just 'ragheads' then can bomb the shit out of..

I don't go round putting flags up or anything however and I don't go round saying 'IM AN IRAQI AND I LOVE IT!' (unless i'm drunk).

Every culture has it's pros/cons, I embrace my heritage, however i'm not forcing my ways on anyone else.

Abood

31st March 2006, 18:59

I will repeat this point again, as no one seems to listen to it: if we are going to bring chance into this (i.e. you can't choose your birthplace, and therefore there's no point being proud of it), then why be a Marxist? Especially if you are one of the proletariat, because you didn't choose to be born into the working class.
I'm not of the proletarian class. I come from an upper class family - pretty much. Yet, I chose marxism, and that's something to be proud of. I'm proud to be different. I'm proud because I know that's the right route to take. I'm proud because I realized that what my dad does is wrong (he's a CEO). I'm proud of that!
But I'm not proud of being Kuwaiti. What's to be proud of? I'm not proud that I have Kuwaiti heritage. Why would I want to be proud of coming from ancestors who were male chauvinists? What's to be proud of about my language?

Firstly, why is being proud of your country wrong? How is it "the opium of the masses"?
Because if you support your country then you won't be an internationalist, but more of a nationalist.

Secondly, being patriotic doesn't mean supporting your government at every turn. It simply means being proud of your culture, your language, your background etc.
And may I ask, why are you proud of your culture? language? background?
What is your culture? Why are you proud of it?
What is your first language? What are you proud of it?
What is your background? Why are you proud of it?

I eat Arabic food and like it
I eat mexican food and like it, that doesn't make me a proud mexican - i'm not even mexican!
I eat chinese food and like it, and i'm not even chinese.
My point is, liking a certain type of food doesnt make you proud of where that food comes from.

I don't see why I shouldn't be 'dam proud to be Iraqi' in my area i'm surrounded by racists who hate Arabs You can be proud you're not racist. But being proud that you're Iraqi is like saying "Thank goodness I'm not English", which is racist.

Every culture has it's pros/cons, I embrace my heritage, however i'm not forcing my ways on anyone else.
Reactionary, are you? :blink:
Oh, people, let's all go back to the time when our culture was most dominant. I'll go back 100years in time and live with all the sexism, etc. involved. :lol:

Mariam

31st March 2006, 19:11

I agree with comrade SA.
I'm not proud of the country that i was born, grow up, and living in. There's nothing to be proud about it, and those who are proud can NOT see the truth of the rotten ruling system.
I've always had a problem with my belonging
I maybe proud of my family..an Arabic tribe that's well known around here for fighting against the British colonization, and they were banished from this place to another. However, they were stone cold killers too. :ph34r:
Foget about that..
I'm proud of what I've brought myself into.
I'm proud of what i am!!
I'm proud of myself, because i might be the only girl (in this country) who thinks about leftists issues.
I'm proud cuase i feel that i'm uniqe..i'm different.
That's what really one should be proud of.
:blush:

kingbee

31st March 2006, 20:03

I am not born in working class, i am born in an middle to upper middle class family. THAT is nothing to be proud or ashamed of. MY choice though was to not join the ranks of the capitalists. i do not have bonds like my dad, i do not want to drive a luxury car and i do not want more power for companies. i do want a society free from capitatlist oppression. that is my concious choice and that i can be proud of.

Ok. But if you are not working class, then should the working class be bothered about class consciousness?

I just don't think the "your nation is by chance" is a strong argument.

. a life as an oppressed individual is nothing i'd be proud of... fighting for freedom of you class would be.

...and if we replace "class" with "nation", does that mean that it is still reactionary?

If your nation is oppressed?

Because if you support your country then you won't be an internationalist, but more of a nationalist.

But does that mean you are "wrong" or does that prove that it is "the opium of the masses"? Look at Ho. Look at Mao. They were nationalists weren't they?

And may I ask, why are you proud of your culture? language? background?
What is your culture? Why are you proud of it?
What is your first language? What are you proud of it?
What is your background? Why are you proud of it?

My whole heritage revolves around the Welsh language. I am proud of it because for hundreds of years it has been oppressed by the English and has managed to survive like no other Celtic language has.

The pride in my language therefore manifests itself in the Welsh culture, and then the Welsh nation, as language is part of culture, and culture part of the nation.

It's just the fact that so many people denounce patriotism and nationalism when in fact it is natural. All patriotism stems from pride; pride in your background, culture, language etc.

In addition, it seems that people denounce patriotism/nationalism at the drop of a hat, without consideration. I imagine that most of these people come from England, the U.$, Germany etc. Because they aren't nationalistic, they immediately denounce it.

Admittedly, nationalism can be very dangerous, especially when extremists take over. But this is the same with every ideology, socialism included.

Lord Testicles

1st April 2006, 12:04

then should the working class be bothered about class consciousness

Yes, the working class should be bothered about class consciousness, the working class are oppressed and exploited every hour of every day, and the sooner we throw of these chains the better.

and if we replace "class" with "nation", does that mean that it is still reactionary?

If your nation is oppressed?

Yes it does. Your nation doesn’t mean a thing its just boundaries set up by the ruling class; it breaks down solidarity and is inherently reactionary when the human race as a whole is concerned.

But does that mean you are "wrong" or does that prove that it is "the opium of the masses"? Look at Ho. Look at Mao. They were nationalists weren't they?

Last time I checked Vietnam and China didn’t look remotely socialist.

My whole heritage revolves around the Welsh language. I am proud of it because for hundreds of years it has been oppressed by the English and has managed to survive like no other Celtic language has.

So what? It survived a few hundred years of oppression. Language is a barrier to international working class solidarity, it would have done us a favour to have died out a few hundred years ago.

I imagine that most of these people come from England, the U.$, Germany

I am Welsh myself and the nationalism here is as dangerous as the nationalism anywhere else. Anyone who has driven up to north Wales or through the country roads in the south are sure to spot racist graffiti directed at the English, that is a product of nationalism. I’m also sure you remember a young Iraqi was murdered in Swansea just after the Iraq war started, also a product of nationalism. The racism and anti-Semitism in Welsh schools is also ripe, another product of nationalism. Now you tell me how wonderful nationalism is?

Admittedly, nationalism can be very dangerous

No. Nationalism is very dangerous.

RaiseYourVoice

1st April 2006, 12:10

...and if we replace "class" with "nation", does that mean that it is still reactionary?

If your nation is oppressed?

there are no oppressed nations, only oppressed people.

7189

1st April 2006, 13:15

In the words of Oscar Wilde:

'Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious'.

kingbee

1st April 2006, 15:04

[/QUOTE]

Yes, the working class should be bothered about class consciousness, the working class are oppressed and exploited every hour of every day, and the sooner we throw of these chains the better.

And I could say that people should be bothered about their nation to keep their unique cultures and languages alive, because culture is what makes us human. Without diversity, who are we?

"and if we replace "class" with "nation", does that mean that it is still reactionary? If your nation is oppressed?"

Yes it does. Your nation doesn’t mean a thing its just boundaries set up by the ruling class; it breaks down solidarity and is inherently reactionary when the human race as a whole is concerned.

Ok. Well I personally believe that the Welsh nation has been oppressed for hundreds of years.

But because the "ruling class" invented the nation, then I should just lie down and let the language and culture die shouldn't I?

But does that mean you are "wrong" or does that prove that it is "the opium of the masses"? Look at Ho. Look at Mao. They were nationalists weren't they?

Last time I checked Vietnam and China didn’t look remotely socialist.

And they weren't to start off with? That's like saying that Russia is not socialist any more. Mao and Ho were nationalists, and socialists.

My whole heritage revolves around the Welsh language. I am proud of it because for hundreds of years it has been oppressed by the English and has managed to survive like no other Celtic language has.

So what? It survived a few hundred years of oppression. Language is a barrier to international working class solidarity, it would have done us a favour to have died out a few hundred years ago.

Of course, I forget that some "socialists" think that diversity is a bad idea, and everything should be monotonous.

Are you in favour of globalisation? That seems to be destroying languages pretty well!

I am Welsh myself and the nationalism here is as dangerous as the nationalism anywhere else. Anyone who has driven up to north Wales or through the country roads in the south are sure to spot racist graffiti directed at the English, that is a product of nationalism.

As I said above, nationalism can be bad when hijacked by extremists. It's the same for socialism or any other ideology!

Plus, I have personally never seen any anti-English graffiti in the South.

I’m also sure you remember a young Iraqi was murdered in Swansea just after the Iraq war started, also a product of nationalism.

What, you're blaming this on nationalists now?! Have you any proof that Welsh nationalists murdered this bloke?

The racism and anti-Semitism in Welsh schools is also ripe, another product of nationalism. Now you tell me how wonderful nationalism is?

I don't know what school you went to, but I, and no one else I know, has ever encountered any racism or anti-Semitism at all!

Where are these accusations coming from?!

Admittedly, nationalism can be very dangerous

No. Nationalism is very dangerous.

Well that's hardly a great argument.

But you believe what you want. I am proud of diversity, and proud of my language and culture.

Lord Testicles

1st April 2006, 16:04

And I could say that people should be bothered about their nation to keep their unique cultures and languages alive, because culture is what makes us human. Without diversity, who are we?

Just because there is no nation does not mean that there is no culture or diversity.

But because the "ruling class" invented the nation, then I should just lie down and let the language and culture die shouldn't I?

As a socialist you should believe that your nation has to go any way. As ive said before just because there is no nation does not mean that there will be no culture. Your language is bound to die anyway, give it another hundred years at the most.

Of course, I forget that some "socialists" think that diversity is a bad idea, and everything should be monotonous.

Are you in favour of globalisation? That seems to be destroying languages pretty well!

I don’t think that diversity is a bad idea all I was saying was that language sets up boundaries between workers of different countries.

I have personally never seen any anti-English graffiti in the South.

Its there if you look.

What, you're blaming this on nationalists now?! Have you any proof that Welsh nationalists murdered this bloke?

Look here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/4274319.stm) It was described as "cowardly, underhand, and racially motivated" and we all know that nationalism is the road to racism.

I don't know what school you went to, but I, and no one else I know, has ever encountered any racism or anti-Semitism at all!

Maybe being racist towards the English doesn’t count for you? But in the school I went to there was racism everywhere you looked mainly towards the English and people of Asian origin.

Disciple of Prometheus

1st April 2006, 16:14

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 08:33 PM
What's wrong with America?
A lot of things, ;) . I think the problem with being patriotic is that for the leftist it seems hypocritical in my opinion sense the State is viewed as either non-existant (like I believe), or just a stepping block towards a true communal society. By being patriotic and supporting the system; you are condoning a government that doesn't support you, or your cause, a government, that preaches a "multi-party," system, but if your a leftist who gains any kind of prominence or influence they start tapping your phones, and filing information on you, as was the case John Lennon, why be patriotic about that? Sure you can be proud of the people around, but why be patriotic about the State that doesn't really represent the peoples views? The States that taxes it's people into poverty, and then spends the money like drunken sailors at a whore house, why be patriotic about that? Or that sends the poor to fight wars, while they can sit back and debate about theocratic moral issues? I think if you must be patriotic, be patriotic to a country that supports the leftist views, like China or Cuba.

Lord Testicles

1st April 2006, 16:19

Originally posted by Disciple of [email protected] 1 2006, 04:23 PM
I think if you must be patriotic, be patriotic to a country that supports the leftist views, like China or Cuba.
:lol: lmao. I hope you’re not serious.

One minute you saying why people should not be patriotic about a country that taps your phones and files information on you, and then you tell them to be patriotic towards a country like china which does just that.

EDIT: Grammer.

Disciple of Prometheus

1st April 2006, 16:36

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 04:28 PM

One minute you saying why people should not be patriotic about a country that taps your phones and files information on you, and then you tell them to be patriotic towards a country like china which does just that.

I said if you must , meaning if you feel that you have to be patriotic to something might as well pick a leftist country, personally I don't think anyone should feel compelled to be patriotic, but again if you must might as well pick one of those. Oh, and no I wasn't being terriblely serious, more sarcastic than serious.

Abood

1st April 2006, 16:38

because culture is what makes us human.
I believe we're humans because we are homo sapiens.

Without diversity, who are we?
COMMUNISTS!

But because the "ruling class" invented the nation, then I should just lie down and let the language and culture die shouldn't I?
Yeh, that is the communist thing to to.

That's like saying that Russia is not socialist any more.
The last time I checked, Russia was capitalist. By the way, it was never socialist.
Classes always existed - even under Lenin.

Mao and Ho were nationalists, and socialists.
So was Hitler. :lol:

Are you in favour of globalisation? That seems to be destroying languages pretty well!
Eventhough it has many disadvantages, it has a great one. With globalization, workers from around the world get together - like in this website for instance.

What, you're blaming this on nationalists now?! Have you any proof that Welsh nationalists murdered this bloke?
Well, why would someone murder an Iraqi fellow? Maybe because he's Iraqi and isn't in Iraq? Isn't that nationalistic?

I am proud of diversity, and proud of my language and culture.
A conservative communist. Great oxymoron. :lol:

I think if you must be patriotic, be patriotic to a country that supports the leftist views, like China
Maybe not.

or Cuba.
Possibly. However, I am opposed to patriotism in any kind. The Castro regime is a nationalistic socialist one, which means that he isn't bothered about other countries but only his own. But I do support him to some extent.

kingbee

1st April 2006, 16:41

[/QUOTE]

And I could say that people should be bothered about their nation to keep their unique cultures and languages alive, because culture is what makes us human. Without diversity, who are we?

Just because there is no nation does not mean that there is no culture or diversity.

But in the Welsh case, it does.

But because the "ruling class" invented the nation, then I should just lie down and let the language and culture die shouldn't I?

As a socialist you should believe that your nation has to go any way.

As a socialist, I can believe what I want! I don't need to believe something because 'that's what socialists think'. If that means defending a culture even though it might go against some versions of socialism, then so be it.

As ive said before just because there is no nation does not mean that there will be no culture.

Yes, but defending a nation is part of defending a culture in many cases including this one.

Your language is bound to die anyway, give it another hundred years at the most.

You really think? I frankly find that quite insulting.

I personally believe that people will not let the language die out.

Of course, I forget that some "socialists" think that diversity is a bad idea, and everything should be monotonous.

Are you in favour of globalisation? That seems to be destroying languages pretty well!

I don’t think that diversity is a bad idea all I was saying was that language sets up boundaries between workers of different countries.

This from a person who claims that languages "would have done us a favour to have died out a few hundred years ago".

I have personally never seen any anti-English graffiti in the South.

Its there if you look.

Well, having lived here for the best part of 20 years, I have never come across it.

What, you're blaming this on nationalists now?! Have you any proof that Welsh nationalists murdered this bloke?

Look here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/4274319.stm) It was described as "cowardly, underhand, and racially motivated" and we all know that nationalism is the road to racism.

Racially motivated? Does that mean that this guy was a Welsh Nationalist?! Of course it doesn't!

I don't know what school you went to, but I, and no one else I know, has ever encountered any racism or anti-Semitism at all!

Maybe being racist towards the English doesn’t count for you?

"Being racist towards the English"? I think you need to do some more research on this topic.

Having been through Welsh language education, I have never encountered racism towards the English. Sure, I've heard it down the pub at rugby games, but never from a teacher.

But in the school I went to there was racism everywhere you looked mainly towards the English and people of Asian origin.

Were they card-carrying nationalists too, much like the aforesaid murderer then?

kingbee

1st April 2006, 16:49

because culture is what makes us human.
I believe we're humans because we are homo sapiens.

Ah. I believe culture does that.

Without diversity, who are we?
COMMUNISTS!

What, so communism doesn't allow for diversity?!

But because the "ruling class" invented the nation, then I should just lie down and let the language and culture die shouldn't I?
Yeh, that is the communist thing to to.

What, so to be a 'good communist' I must let cultures die out?

That's like saying that Russia is not socialist any more.
The last time I checked, Russia was capitalist. By the way, it was never socialist.
Classes always existed - even under Lenin.

I know classes always existed. That doesn't mean it wasn't socialist: it means it wasn't communist.

Mao and Ho were nationalists, and socialists.
So was Hitler. :lol:

Right you are!

Are you in favour of globalisation? That seems to be destroying languages pretty well!
Eventhough it has many disadvantages, it has a great one. With globalization, workers from around the world get together - like in this website for instance.

I've always been one for keeping culture alive, I don't really know about others.

What, you're blaming this on nationalists now?! Have you any proof that Welsh nationalists murdered this bloke?
Well, why would someone murder an Iraqi fellow? Maybe because he's Iraqi and isn't in Iraq? Isn't that nationalistic?

No, that's racist! There's a difference!

You think that I would go and kill someone because they weren't Welsh?

I am proud of diversity, and proud of my language and culture.
A conservative communist. Great oxymoron. :lol:

Hang on- so if I'm proud of my culture and language I'm a conservative?!

I never knew that such normal viewpoints would make me a bad communist!

Lord Testicles

1st April 2006, 16:58

But in the Welsh case, it does.

No it doesn’t, if Wales didn’t exist the people would still know there history, customs and culture. Take the Gypsies for example they have no country but they have a culture and customs.

As a socialist, I can believe what I want!

No as a socialist you believe in socialism, if you believed in anything else you wouldn’t be a socialist, it’s like the people who say "I’m a vegetarian, but I eat chicken."

You really think? I frankly find that quite insulting.

Yes I do think that. Frankly I don’t care if you find that insulting.

And if "Nationalism is the road to racism" does that mean that I am a racist?

You may eventually become one. As you’ve stated in your last post you would happily defend "your nation" ....

defending a nation is part of defending a culture
...so would you butcher a group of people because there culture was influencing yours or even wiping it out?

Having been through Welsh language education, I have never encountered racism towards the English. Sure, I've heard it down the pub at rugby games, but never from a teacher.

I was talking about the majority of the pupils, but now you’ve mentioned it I have heard it from a few teachers but I admit it is fairly rear.

Abood

1st April 2006, 16:59

As a socialist, I can believe what I want! I don't need to believe something because 'that's what socialists think'. If that means defending a culture even though it might go against some versions of socialism, then so be it.
You have to be able to differentiate between socialism as a goal or socialism as the huge tree with communism a branch of it. If you're a nationalistic communist, then that's an oxymoron, because communism is fundamentally internationalist.

I personally believe that people will not let the language die out.
We'll let time decide on that.

I don’t think that diversity is a bad idea all I was saying was that language sets up boundaries between workers of different countries.

This from a person who claims that languages "would have done us a favour to have died out a few hundred years ago".

That's exacly what he/she is saying. Languages have split the workers and therefore it would be better to end them.

Racially motivated? Does that mean that this guy was a Welsh Nationalist?! Of course it doesn't!
Maybe not, but it certainly is a nationalistic action. Why would a Welsh guy kill an Iraqi one?

And if "Nationalism is the road to racism" does that mean that I am a racist?
You will be if you become more nationalistic. However, as you are a communist, then I'm sure you're not. I just hope your nationalism doesn't dominate your ideology.

kingbee

1st April 2006, 17:27

No it doesn’t, if Wales didn’t exist the people would still know there history, customs and culture.

...which would be dying out. There is no coincidence that the Welsh language happened to die out when the English state took it over!

No as a socialist you believe in socialism, if you believed in anything else you wouldn’t be a socialist, it’s like the people who say "I’m a vegetarian, but I eat chicken."

But I do believe in socialism. Just because I believe in the Welsh language and culture, it doesn't mean that I am not a socialist! Or do we all have to think exactly the same?

You may eventually become one. As you’ve stated in your last post you would happily defend "your nation" ....

For a start, I didn't say I would defend my nation. I implied that I would defend my culture, as culture is part of a nation. Or at least it is in this age of nation states.

And thinking I will eventually become a racist- all I can say is you are very misguided.

.so would you butcher a group of people because there culture was influencing yours or even wiping it out?

Who do you think I am?!

When I say "defending my nation" I didn't mean by killing people! I mean through defending its history and culture, which has been oppressed all these years.

If you think I would "butcher" people just because I'm proud of my culture then you are either ideologically narrow minded, naive, or just plain stupid.

You have to be able to differentiate between socialism as a goal or socialism as the huge tree with communism a branch of it. If you're a nationalistic communist, then that's an oxymoron, because communism is fundamentally internationalist.

So is national liberation really against communism? I thought communism was against empires, and for self-determination.

That's exacly what he/she is saying. Languages have split the workers and therefore it would be better to end them

I personally believe that diversity is a good thing. Just because languages "get in the way" of workers solidarity, it doesn't mean they should be wiped out.

There are other ways of getting round problems.

Maybe not, but it certainly is a nationalistic action. Why would a Welsh guy kill an Iraqi one?

Murder is a nationalistic action?! Lol. You are having a laugh! It's a criminal action!

Why would a Welsh guy kill an Iraqi? I don't know.

But I'm sure it isn't because he is in favour of self-determination!

You will be if you become more nationalistic. However, as you are a communist, then I'm sure you're not. I just hope your nationalism doesn't dominate your ideology.

I think things here have been carried away.

Basically, I am a nationalist insofar as national liberation. I believe that nationalism, when fully fledged, can be destructive. I suppose that I am a patiot then (De Gaulle put it best: Patriotism is when pride of your nation comes first; nationalism is when hate of others comes first).

I am just proud of my language, which has been oppressed for hundreds of years. I don't believe in "my nation, right or wrong", or any of that bollox.

It's just that people don't seem to understand where nationalistic/patriotic discourses come from, and it also pisses me off when people seem to think that socialists should think this way or another (that is not a comment against you guys specifically, it's just against numerous socialists).

Nathe

2nd April 2006, 00:58

Originally posted by I'd Rather Be [email protected] 18 2005, 08:15 PM
Is it wrong to be nationalist? No. But we're not interested in morality. Nationalism and communism are diametrically opposed. A communist revolution would destroy all nations and states.
To the extent that you still support these things, you'll be fighting against communism.
i think most of us think that communism is 'good' morally
and nationalism is opposed to communism
so dosent it follow that nationalism is wrong.

our beliefs about the morality behind political ideoligies is what causes us to conform to a particular ideology, or modify a particular ideology to what makes sense to us. therefore our fight for communism is essentially a fight for a belief about morality. and anything that opposes our beliefs in a way that its existence denies the application of our beliefs/ideology, is morally bad.

kingbee

2nd April 2006, 11:04

Ah, but morality shouldn't really come into it because isn't morality merely the product of the capitalist superstructure?

Lord Testicles

2nd April 2006, 19:04

...which would be dying out. There is no coincidence that the Welsh language happened to die out when the English state took it over!

No it’s not a coincidence the welsh language started to die out because the law decreed it shouldn’t be taught. What im trying to say is that if the world was nation-less, people would still have culture, it wouldn’t all of a sudden go bland and boring.

But I do believe in socialism. Just because I believe in the Welsh language and culture, it doesn't mean that I am not a socialist! Or do we all have to think exactly the same?

No of course not and there is nothing wrong in believing in the welsh language and culture, its the believe in a nation or the idea of nations that im against.

When I say "defending my nation" I didn't mean by killing people! I mean through defending its history and culture, which has been oppressed all these years.

I think you will find its is no longer oppressed and some aspects of the culture are starting to flourish.

you are either ideologically narrow minded, naive, or just plain stupid.

I think you will find I am neither, there is no reason to plummet to the level of petty insults.

So is national liberation really against communism? I thought communism was against empires, and for self-determination.

National liberation can be progressive, but nationalism gets to a point were it becomes reactionary. The end goal of communism is a classless stateless society.

I personally believe that diversity is a good thing. Just because languages "get in the way" of workers solidarity, it doesn't mean they should be wiped out.

I never said it should be wiped out, all im trying to point out is that a worker in Japan might be able to relate to a worker in France if they spoke the same language. Although I do think that eventually due to globalisation and other aspects a dominant language will emerge.

Murder is a nationalistic action?! Lol. You are having a laugh! It's a criminal action!

Why would a Welsh guy kill an Iraqi? I don't know.

When a Welsh guy kills an Iraqi guy because he is an Iraqi, that is when it becomes nationalistic.

I think things here have been carried away.

Agreed.

I believe that nationalism, when fully fledged, can be destructive. I suppose that I am a patriot then (De Gaulle put it best: Patriotism is when pride of your nation comes first; nationalism is when hate of others comes first).

I think there may have been a misunderstanding.

EDIT: Spelling

kingbee

3rd April 2006, 11:33

What im trying to say is that if the world was nation-less, people would still have culture, it wouldn’t all of a sudden go bland and boring.

Agreed. I think I've got the wrong end of the stick when you said "If Wales didn't exist". I assume you mean if no other nation states did either, rather than if Wales didn't get independence.

its the believe in a nation or the idea of nations that im against.

I think (perhaps unbelivabley) that I am too. It's just in this era of the nation state, it's impossible to suddenly want all nations gone. I think we have to be realistic.

I think you will find its is no longer oppressed and some aspects of the culture are starting to flourish.

True (I didn't say otherwise), but it [i] has [/b] been oppressed for hundreds of years. The Welsh language has a much smaller influence on Welsh life than what it did in 1282.

When a Welsh guy kills an Iraqi guy because he is an Iraqi, that is when it becomes nationalistic.

I still personally don't agree with this one bit.

Anyways, I think this has runs its course by now!

Noah

3rd April 2006, 21:25

I eat mexican food and like it, that doesn't make me a proud mexican - i'm not even mexican!
I eat chinese food and like it, and i'm not even chinese.
My point is, liking a certain type of food doesnt make you proud of where that food comes from.

No no, the fact is that it's part of my heritage and I enjoy it. I eat other foods too but if I like my culture, my heritage my people, who suffer on a daily basis, why shouldn't we stand united and be proud of our country and instead of being stepped all over.

You can be proud you're not racist. But being proud that you're Iraqi is like saying "Thank goodness I'm not English", which is racist.

Again SA you made an assumption. I'm an Iraqi, nothing I can do will change where I was born, who my ancestors are thus what I'm saying is that 'Why not enjoy the advantages of what you've been given?'

Reactionary, are you?
Oh, people, let's all go back to the time when our culture was most dominant. I'll go back 100years in time and live with all the sexism, etc. involved.

I'm a Mandaean Arab my friend, we lived seperately from many Muslims in Iraq and we have different culture and heritage than Iraqis. However 'Arabic' heritage will because if I went around saying I was 'Mandaeaic arab' it would confuse people.

However, you did ignore my full sentence. I said all cultures have pros/cons why not be proud of the good acheivements and aspects.