Who was Ho Chi Minh.

[barista.marxista]

I've recently been curious about Ho Chi Minh (realizing I know little to nothing about him), his role in Vietnam, and his ideas and practices. What were his philosophical ideas, what were major historical actions of his, and how did he relate to the arguably conservative Stalinist trend in the Communist movement at his time?

[Comrada J]

Originally posted by http://members.fortunecity.com/stalinmao/Vietnam/index.html
Ho Chi Minh's importance

Among 20th-century revolutionaries, Ho waged the longest and most costly battle against the colonial system of the great powers. One of its effects was to cause a grave crisis in the national life of the mightiest of capitalist countries, the United States. As a Marxist, Ho stands with the Yugoslav leader Tito as one of the progenitors of the "national Communism" that developed in the 1960s and (at least partially) with Communist China's Mao Zedong in emphasizing the role of the peasantry in the revolutionary struggle.

[Fidelbrand]

My dad said he said to his wife "Yo sweetie, im going downstairs to buy a pack of ciggarettes. " Then......

he disappeared for more than a decade to build the revolution.

[farleft]

1930 - Ho Chi Minh founds the Indochinese Communist Party (ICP).


Images of founding father Ho Chi Minh abound
Born 1890
Founded Indochina Communist Party 1930
President of North Vietnam 1945-69
Died 1969


2003: Ho Chi Minh legacy wears thin

1941 - ICP organises a guerrilla force, Viet Minh, in response to invasion by Japan during World War II.

1945 - The Viet Minh seizes power. Ho Chi Minh announces Vietnam's independence.

1946 - French forces attack Viet Minh in Haiphong in November, sparking the war of resistance against the colonial power.

1950 - Democratic Republic of Vietnam is recognised by China and USSR.

1954 - Viet Minh forces attack an isolated French military outpost in the town of Dien Bien. The attempt to take the outpost lasts two months, during which time the French government agrees to peace talks in Geneva. At the Geneva conference, Vietnam is split into North and South at the 17th Parallel.

1956 - South Vietnamese President Ngo Dinh Diem begins campaign against political dissidents.

1957 - Beginning of communist insurgency in the South.

1959 - Weapons and men from North Vietnam begin infiltrating the South.

1960 - American aid to Diem increased.

1962 - Number of US military advisors in South Vietnam rises to 12,000.

1963 - Viet Cong, the communist guerrillas operating in South Vietnam, defeat units of the ARVN, the South Vietnamese Army. President Diem is overthrown.

US enters the war

1964 - US destroyer allegedly attacked by North Vietnamese patrol boats. This triggers start of pre-planned American bombing raids on North Vietnam.

1965 - 200,000 American combat troops arrive in South Vietnam.

1966 - US troop numbers in Vietnam rise to 400,000, then to 500,000 the following year.


US, South Vietnam failed to stop communist-led unification
Vietnam War, known as "American War" in Vietnam, claimed millions of lives 1955-1975
58,000 Americans died


Vietnam War: History
On This Day 1975: Saigon surrenders
In pictures: The Vietnam War

1968 - Tet Offensive - a combined assault by Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese army on US positions - begins. More than 500 civilians die in the massacre at My Lai.

1969 - Ho Chi Minh dies. President Nixon begins to reduce US ground troops in Vietnam as domestic public opposition to the war grows.


This is a nice lot of info, comes from BBC News website under Vietnam: Timeline

[Janus]

Ho Chi Minh or Uncle Ho was a Vietnamese revolutionary leader who battled against imperialism for most of his life. Ho's doctrine consisted of Confucianism, nationalism, and communism. Of course Ho rejected Stalin's conservative stances and refused to accept the division of Vietnam into two separate nations. During his presidency, Ho became the center of a personality cult similar if not greater than that of Mao. During the Vietnam War, almost every Norrthern soldier has a portrait of him and after the war, Saigon was named after him becoming Ho Chi Minh City. Ho Chi Minh was a man who just wanted to break his nation from the bonds of imperialism in order to unite it, but was blocked from accomplishing this through much of his life by France and later on, the US.

[The Red Scare]

Ho Chi Minh is one of the greats...he was a revolutionary in the best sense of the world. He blended nationalism and communism perfectly and fought a brilliant war for liberation. He dedicated his whole life to the cause.

I lived in Vietnam for 4 months earlier this year, so I know a good deal about him. He is hugely respected in Vietnam, almost to the point of a personality cult. Its too bad that the new reformist government there is dismantling socialism bit by bit

[Wiesty]

I know that they're was a road named after him called the Ho Chi Minh Trail, which was a tactical path, holding 2 roads, for supply trasnport etc. If one road was bombed, the other was easily accessed.

[ReD_ReBeL]

here's quite a good short biography of him if you want to check it out.......Ho CHi Minh Bio (http://www.time.com/time/time100/leaders/profile/hochiminh.html)

Cool The Red Scar, what was you doing in Vietnam? Whats it like there?

[The Red Scare]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 12:06 AM
here's quite a good short biography of him if you want to check it out.......Ho CHi Minh Bio (http://www.time.com/time/time100/leaders/profile/hochiminh.html)

Cool The Red Scar, what was you doing in Vietnam? Whats it like there?
Well, I was studying abroad there for the semester. I lived in Hanoi, but made several trips around the country and I also spent a few days in Cambodia.

Vietnam is a beautiful country (despite that much of its ecology was destroyed during the war). Ecologically, its a very diverse place, with beautiful sandy beaches and coral reefs down south, and cooler, mountainous regions up north near the Chinese border. The people are all extremely friendly, and didn't seem bothered that I am an American. In fact, several old men came up to me and told me their stories about the war. Some fought for the Communists, some for the Americans, but no one was hostile towards me. Many young people are studying English in school, and would always want to talk with me.

Politically speaking, Vietnam obviously still calls itself "communist," and there is still a good deal of socialism there today since most of the economy is publicly owned. However since 1986 when they adopted an economic 'renovation' policy, they've been slowly making a return to capitalism. In fact, the country is flooded by American goods (or fake American goods from China, its hard to tell the difference). People who say that there is no religious freedom in Vietnam (I think I heard someone say that on these boards a couple days ago) don't know what the heck their talking about. There are vibrant religious communities and organizations across the country.

Overall, it was easily the best experience of my life. I would go back in a heartbeat. Here are some of the pictures I took on my travels throughout Vietnam and Cambodia:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a343/brynlb/bigtree.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a343/brynlb/sapachildren.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a343/brynlb/girlwithumbrella.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a343/brynlb/children.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a343/brynlb/childinfield.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a343/brynlb/buddhistmonk.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a343/brynlb/boyonbranch.jpg

[ReD_ReBeL]

ah wow seems like you had a great time yea i watched a programme over here on british tv bout Vietnam and the people all seemed really nice and they had alot of there own culture. My mate went to Nicaragua in August to help build schools and stuff with his college, i know they arent communist now but i can post some pictures on here if u like once i get the pictures off him.

[which doctor]

It looks like an entirely different life then the one I'm living in America.
Cute kids.
Nice pictures as well, I like them a lot.

[Taboo Tongue]

I would like to note one thing about the Vietname War (pasted Wikipedia), and shows that Uncle Ho was in the right in the Vietnam War.

After the Viet Minh's historic victory over the French at the battle of Dien Bien Phu all of Indochina was granted independence, including Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam. However, Vietnam was partitioned at the 17th parallel, above which the former Viet Minh established a Communist state and below which an anti-communist state was established under the Emperor Bao Dai. As dictated in the Geneva Accords of 1954 the division was meant to be temporary pending free elections for national leadership. The agreement stipulated that these two military zones, which were separated by the temporary demarcation line, "should not in any way be interpreted as constituting a political or territorial boundary," and specifically stated "general elections shall be held in July 1956." But such elections were not held as Diem, who had not signed the Geneva Accords, refused to hold them. The U.S. supported this move to maintain its Southern ally, also later claiming that Ho had no intention of holding free elections. The majority of Vietnamese were angered that the scheduled elections for the unification of the country never took place. Neither of the two Vietnamese countries signed the election clause in the agreement. The United States, fearing a Communist takeover of the region, supported Ngo Dinh Diem, who had ousted Bao Dai, as leader of South Vietnam while Ho Chi Minh became leader of the North.

[Martyr]

I'am a minhist and follow his ideals. For freedom no matter what the cost is even if you go agaisnt your political Idiologies. There were reports that he wasnt even a communist.

[Martyr]

I'am a minhist and follow his ideals. He taght to fight freedom no matter what the cost is even if you go agaisnt your political Idiologies. There were reports that he wasnt even a communist.

[Martyr]

^^ sorry I douple posted

[Comrada J]

Whoa see that tree? Awesome.

[Wiesty]

You are a pretty skilled photographer

[Hiero]

Of course Ho rejected Stalin's conservative stances and refused to accept the division of Vietnam into two separate nations

What do you base that on? I have read various things writen by Ho none that criticise Stalin.

In regards to the Soviet-Sino split (which Stalin wasn't around for if that is what your thinking) Ho thought he could find a middle path and be on good terms with both.

[The Red Scare]

^^^No, Comrade Qiu is correct. Stalin didn't think that their would be a socialist revolution in the south, and believed that the country should remain divided. Of course, Stalin died in 1953, the year before even North Vietnam became communist. So Ho Chi Mihn never really had to directly criticize Stalin.

[Martyr]

Although Vietnam is plagued by disease and by the aftermath of the war I can see the people's spirit is still high. I would like to go there someday and see it to believe it.

[Janus]

[QUOTE]What do you base that on? I have read various things writen by Ho none that criticise Stalin.

I didn't say that Ho criticized Stalin. I simply stated that Ho was determined to unify Vietnam and wasn't going to let 10 years of sacrifice go to waste simply because of the Geneva Accords, which the Soviets were in favor of. Throughout this whole period, the Soviet Union continually advised the Ho to be cautious and settle for what he had gained rather than launch a war. This isn't surprising since Stalin acted the same way towad Mao by repeatedly advising him to settle down into a minor role. The Soviet Union's cautionary advice disappeared when the US began bombing North Vietnam in 1964 and Vietnam was able to skirt the Sino-Soviet split (which I wasn't mentioning by the way since it didn't occur untill the early 60's) and gain the support of the USSR and the PRC.

[Invader Zim]

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm#Purges


Vietnam, post-war Communist regime (1975 et seq.): 430 000

* Jacqueline Desbarats and Karl Jackson ("Vietnam 1975-1982: The Cruel Peace", in The Washington Quarterly, Fall 1985) estimated that there had been around 65,000 executions. This number is repeated in the Sept. 1985 Dept. of State Bulletin article on Vietnam.
* Orange County Register (29 April 2001): 1 million sent to camps and 165,000 died.
* Northwest Asian Weekly (5 July 1996): 150,000-175,000 camp prisoners unaccounted for.
* Estimates for the number of Boat People who died:
o Elizabeth Becker (When the War Was Over, 1986) cites the UN High Commissioner on Refugees: 250,000 boat people died at sea; 929,600 reached asylum
o The 20 July 1986 San Diego Union-Tribune cites the UN Refugee Commission: 200,000 to 250,000 boat people had died at sea since 1975.
o The 3 Aug. 1979 Washington Post cites the Australian immigration minister's estimate that 200,000 refugees had died at sea since 1975.
+ Also: "Some estimates have said that around half of those who set out do not survive."
o The 1991 Information Please Almanac cites unspecified "US Officials" that 100,000 boat people died fleeing Vietnam.
o Encarta estimates that 0.5M fled, and 10-15% died, for a death toll of 50-75,000.
o Nayan Chanda, Brother Enemy (1986): ¼M Chinese refugees in two years, 30,000 to 40,000 of whom died at sea. (These numbers also repeated by Marilyn Young, The Vietnam Wars: 1945-1990 (1991))
* Rummel
o Vietnamese democide: 1,040,000 (1975-87)
+ Executions: 100,000
+ Camp Deaths: 95,000
+ Forced Labor: 48,000
+ Democides in Cambodia: 460,000
+ Democides in Laos: 87,000
+ Boat People: 500,000 deaths (50% not blamed on the Vietnamese govt.)
* ANALYSIS: I'd say the most likely total would be 430,000. That's 65,000 executions + 165,000 camp deaths + 200,000 boat people. It's unlikely that VN alone caused 460+87T democides


I have written on the reliability of such estimates before, however such statistics can not be entirely ignored.

[RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog]

Was Ho Chi Minh so much different than Stalin and Mao in regard of politics and tactics?

Was Vietnam more than one of SU's sattelite states?

[The Red Scare]

Originally posted by RevolutionarySocialist [email protected] 16 2005, 11:21 AM
Was Ho Chi Minh so much different than Stalin and Mao in regard of politics and tactics?

Was Vietnam more than one of SU's sattelite states?
Yes, Vietnam was much more than that. In fact, Ho Chi Minh was extremely successful in taking advantage of the Sino-Soviet split by playing both sides against each other to get the most from them. Politically, the Vietnamese government was probably closer to the Soviet side, but tactically (especially during the war), is suppose it more resembled the Chinese experience (given that like China of 1949, Vietnam was a backwards, peasant society that overthrew the government through a guerilla war based primarily in the countryside).

So yeah, Vietnam was surely neither a Soviet nor Chinese puppet. Early on, Vietnam was very close to China, but during the Cultural Revolution in China, Vietnam began to look more towards the Soviet Union for support. After Mao died, Vietnam shifted ever further away from China. There was even a short war between China and Vietnam after Vietnam overthrew the quasi-fascist Pol Pot regime in Cambodia (a regime which was supported by the Chinese government at the time).

[Martyr]

Actually Ho Chi Minh was not a full communist nor did he rule with a communist heart. In his bio it said Ho Chi Minh in the beginning liked the whole idea of freedom from oppresion from the oppresors but later shifted farther from communism. He was more socialist in were he mixed Marxism with paternalism and very little of communism. He let people work together took away the lands from french and gave it to the peasants, he only wore peasant clothing and people were aloud to keep their crops and everyone worked together and people said what they wanted freedom of religion and everything and elections. His minister who was Chinese ordered to kill wealthy peasants and was then fired from his post by Ho Chi minh who later gave those lands for free to those victims family.

Ho Chi minh socialism was interesting but it was not fully relaized becuase of the Vietnam war. However in my opinion he was one of very very very rare people in history who knew what socialsim was.

[RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog]

Originally posted by The Red [email protected] 16 2005, 06:19 PM

Yes, Vietnam was much more than that. In fact, Ho Chi Minh was extremely successful in taking advantage of the Sino-Soviet split by playing both sides against each other to get the most from them. Politically, the Vietnamese government was probably closer to the Soviet side, but tactically (especially during the war), is suppose it more resembled the Chinese experience (given that like China of 1949, Vietnam was a backwards, peasant society that overthrew the government through a guerilla war based primarily in the countryside).


But was the upheaval - so to say - a socialist revolution, in regard of the changing property relations. Or was it more of a bourgeois revolution freeing the Vietnamese of a dictatorial regime?

[Martyr]

Freeing the Vietnamese