Venezuelan opposition leader jailed

[WUOrevolt]

Venezuela jails opposition leader


A Venezuelan court has sentenced one of the most prominent leaders of the opposition to 15 years in prison.
Carlos Ortega, who once led powerful trade unions, was found guilty of inciting civil unrest during a strike that began in late 2002.

The two-month strike paralysed Venezuela's vital oil industry.

Ortega said the verdict was politically motivated, and his lawyers immediately announced an appeal.

Ortega was arrested in the capital, Caracas, in March.

He was found in possession of identity papers with an assumed name, a police official said earlier.

Family members said Ortega secretly returned to Venezuela in last August after fleeing to Costa Rica in 2003.

The strike failed to oust President Hugo Chavez.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4526642.stm

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

One down..

[WUOrevolt]

But 15 years in prison, isnt that a little ridicluous.

Also, I dont see what his big crime was.

[Xvall]

But 15 years in prison, isnt that a little ridicluous.

You're right. It's way too short.

[Commie Rat]

This worries me-

1) he was leading a strike - which to me is a legitimate form of politcal protest
and thus should not have been jailed

2) But he was - to me this seem like it is not directly from the strike but because he is from the opposition

3) If he is a unionist then why is he fighting Chavez? They are both fighting for a better future for the workers of Venezuela

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

He was a member of the labor aristocracy, not a prole.

He was paid by the CIA to distabalize the country.

[ReD_ReBeL]

ahhh fuck me 15 years thats far to long, i thought at the most 3 years or even less!
you think that Hugo Chavez's true colours may be starting to show?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Hugo Chavez didn't sentance him.

[ReD_ReBeL]

lol yea i know i don't know what i was thinking when i typed that :wacko: it's just all this talk bout Chavez. everytime sumthing happens in venezuela i think of Chavez. but do you recon he is a genuine 'champion of the poor'? or do you think he has a hidden agenda?

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 06:19 AM
He was a member of the labor aristocracy, not a prole.

He was paid by the CIA to distabalize the country.
Sources?

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Commie [email protected] 13 2005, 07:56 PM
This worries me-

1) he was leading a strike - which to me is a legitimate form of politcal protest
and thus should not have been jailed

2) But he was - to me this seem like it is not directly from the strike but because he is from the opposition

3) If he is a unionist then why is he fighting Chavez? They are both fighting for a better future for the workers of Venezuela
I think strike is a misnomer. The bosses went on "strike" and locked out all the workers. It was not a strike seeking any benefit for workers.

[Morpheus]

Didn't he support the attempted coup in April '02?

[Clarksist]

do you think he has a hidden agenda?


He's a politician.

Politicians will always have a hidden agenda.

[Correa]

He's lucky to be alive. I consider this a merciful act by the Venezuelan people. He is our class enemy, have some of you lost your mind?

[Clarksist]

He's lucky to be alive. I consider this a merciful act by the Venezuelan people. He is our class enemy, have some of you lost your mind?


If a leftist in the US was jailed for 15 years for having a peaceful riot, and wanting Bush out of office... we'd be burning down fucking building. :lol:

I think we need to have a bit of humility and think about it this way: he's only expressing dissenting views, he didn't kill anybody.............. yet.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 12:50 AM
If a leftist in the US was jailed for 15 years for having a peaceful riot, and wanting Bush out of office... we'd be burning down fucking building. :lol:

I think we need to have a bit of humility and think about it this way: he's only expressing dissenting views, he didn't kill anybody.............. yet.
I suggest you learn about what took place in Venezuela before making these assertions. He may not have pulled the trigger, but Chavez supporters came under sniper fire during a pro-government rally, killing and injuring some. The opposition then spun this to enable their coup.

And I consider attempting to overthrow a popular democratically elected leader in order to make things safer for foreign business a bit more serious than "dissenting views."

[YKTMX]

Consdering he's a supporter of the attempted coup and almost certainly a CIA agent, I think 15 years is lenient.

If Venezuela followed American's example, he'd be locked up 23 hours in some camp subject to periodical torture.

[rebelworker]

For me the issue here is how dissent is dealt with.

This guy deserves to be punished but is the state the body that should be deciding this.

Revolution should be directed from the base, why have members of that union allowed that guy to remain its leader? people should be organizing in local labour assemblies to deal with problems like that. Im suprised after the coup attempt people like him wernt dealt with by the mass of workers, perhaps this is a problem that people arnt taking initiative because they have already become dependant on the state.

The state will never lead to revolution, only the self activity of the workers themselves will do, and the state has always been shown do dissipate self activity and stifle real revolutionary change.

The state should never be the body to decide what form of dissent is acceptable.

my two cents.

[The Red Scare]

If any of you have seen the documentary "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised," you would know what a piece of shit this guy is. He's lucky he wasn't thrown in prison the first time around....Chavez has been EXTRA lenient on him. I say good riddance.

[Reuben]

i wish people would stop refferring to Ortegas crimes simply as dissent. THis is an enormous understatement. In october - just before the sabotage of the oil industry ( which i might point out is publically owned and funds the massive food, health and literacy capaigns of a venezuelan government) Ortega wasw caught on tape expressing his support for a dictatorship of 10-15 years after Chavez was forced from office. Central to this plan was the crippling of theo il industry which did not simply amount to workers withdrawing their labour but to industrial sabotage.

[bolshevik butcher]

Yes, as ahs already been said, the coup was brutal. Lots of people were killed by snipers planted by the people planning the coup. Most of the people invilved unfrotunatley escaped to of all places Miamai.

The coup was indeed a bosses lockout. Although it backfired in places thankfully, and ended in workers runing lots of factories themselves.

[danny android]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 02:19 AM
He was paid by the CIA to distabalize the country.
I'd really like to see where you got this information.

[bolshevik butcher]

Atually, it's well known that the Americans gave underhand help to the coup in 2002 and the bosses lockouts.

Members of the coup met in the offices of the American embassy in venexuela .

[Intifada]

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

He should have been locked up for life, as he is an enemy of the working class.

[Clarksist]

And I consider attempting to overthrow a popular democratically elected leader in order to make things safer for foreign business a bit more serious than "dissenting views."


You could easily twist that to a leftist dissenter in the US right now:

And I consider attempting to overthrow a popular democratically elected leader in order to make things safer for workers a bit more serious than "dissenting views."

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 01:33 PM
You could easily twist that to a leftist dissenter in the US right now:

And I consider attempting to overthrow a popular democratically elected leader in order to make things safer for workers a bit more serious than "dissenting views."
Yes, and? I would not support someone who attempted to install a dictatorship and destroy a democratically elected and popular regime, whatever their cause.

Though one could argue there are substantial differences between trying to take over the government and use it against the people, as opposed to using it for the people.

[Clarksist]

Though one could argue there are substantial differences between trying to take over the government and use it against the people, as opposed to using it for the people.


All I'm saying, is that rightists have the same right to dissent that leftists do.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 04:03 PM

Though one could argue there are substantial differences between trying to take over the government and use it against the people, as opposed to using it for the people.


All I'm saying, is that rightists have the same right to dissent that leftists do.
No.

Rightist do not have a right to dissent from a Leftist trying to establish a somewhat more equal society and benefit the poor.

Rightists suck ass, anyways.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 03:03 PM

Though one could argue there are substantial differences between trying to take over the government and use it against the people, as opposed to using it for the people.


All I'm saying, is that rightists have the same right to dissent that leftists do.
This isn't a case of dissent, this is a case of murder and attempting to install a rightist dictatorship that will serve as a puppet for corporate interests. He hates the government? Fine. But organizing this sort of action against the desires and needs of the people is unacceptable.

[Luís Henrique]

If a leftist in the US was jailed for 15 years for having a peaceful riot, and wanting Bush out of office... we'd be burning down fucking building. :lol:

He didn't have a peaceful riot; he participated in an attempt to topple the constitutional government of Venezuela.


I think we need to have a bit of humility and think about it this way: he's only expressing dissenting views, he didn't kill anybody.............. yet.

No, he wasn't expressing dissenting views. He participated in an attempt to topple the constitutional government of Venezuela. In that attempt, people were killed. I am pretty sure that he didn't pull the trigger in any of those cases, but he was part of the conspiracy that resulted in such deaths.

He is not a dissenter, he is a criminal. In the United States, he would have got the death penalty for high treason. In Venezuela, he got 15 years, with the possibility of parole.

Luís Henrique

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by Ownthink+Dec 15 2005, 02:16 AM--> (Ownthink @ Dec 15 2005, 02:16 AM)
[email protected] 14 2005, 04:03 PM

Though one could argue there are substantial differences between trying to take over the government and use it against the people, as opposed to using it for the people.


All I'm saying, is that rightists have the same right to dissent that leftists do.
No.

Rightist do not have a right to dissent from a Leftist trying to establish a somewhat more equal society and benefit the poor.

Rightists suck ass, anyways. [/b]
Everyone has rights. What is wrong with you?

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by leftistmarleyist+Dec 15 2005, 04:51 PM--> (leftistmarleyist @ Dec 15 2005, 04:51 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 02:16 AM

[email protected] 14 2005, 04:03 PM

Though one could argue there are substantial differences between trying to take over the government and use it against the people, as opposed to using it for the people.


All I'm saying, is that rightists have the same right to dissent that leftists do.
No.

Rightist do not have a right to dissent from a Leftist trying to establish a somewhat more equal society and benefit the poor.

Rightists suck ass, anyways.
Everyone has rights. What is wrong with you? [/b]
I think most here would say what is wrong with YOU?

Rights for Nazis? Advocate that and you are no comrade of mine.

[Guerrilla22]

Ortega is a fuck, he has sabotoged the Venezuelan oil industry, a terrorist act and has amitted to planning the overthrow of the democratically elected Chavez administartion. He also wants to install a right wing dictatorship in Venezuela to replace Chavez.


We are going to need about 10, 12 or 15 years of dictatorship to rescue the country, I have no problem with that," said Ortega.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1240

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 09:51 PM
Everyone has rights. What is wrong with you?
Yes, everybody has rights. Even nazis have rights. But do you have the right to topple the government of your country?

In the same way, Ortega never had the right to do what he tried. Let's not confuse "rights" in general with specifical rights.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by Commie [email protected] 14 2005, 01:56 AM
3) If he is a unionist then why is he fighting Chavez? They are both fighting for a better future for the workers of Venezuela
Ever heard of yellow unionism?

Luís Henrique

[danny android]

Originally posted by Ownthink+Dec 14 2005, 10:16 PM--> (Ownthink @ Dec 14 2005, 10:16 PM)
[email protected] 14 2005, 04:03 PM

Though one could argue there are substantial differences between trying to take over the government and use it against the people, as opposed to using it for the people.


All I'm saying, is that rightists have the same right to dissent that leftists do.
No.

Rightist do not have a right to dissent from a Leftist trying to establish a somewhat more equal society and benefit the poor.

Rightists suck ass, anyways. [/b]
That sounds a little ignorant. If your going ot call for extreme measures to overthrow a right-wing government, then what do you expect from right-winged people when a leftist government is in place. Just because you don't agree with somebody doesn't mean they can't play by the same rules that you do. However Ortega got what he deserves I mean attempting a coup=treason

[Spirit of '94]

Plenty of evidence to put him away for life. He was an important player in events resulting in the massacre of Venezuelan citizens, themselves demonstrating peacefully.

15 years is, if anything, a bow to international relations.

But atleast he isn't plotting the next blow, living it up in Miami...

[BattleOfTheCowshed]

Bravo to Venezuela for jailing that jerk. He was not a true Unionist, he led the right-wing, ultra-corrupt CTV union that led a "bosses strike" that basically shut out workers from their work. The CTV is now practically discredited as most actual workers have now organized under the pro-Chavez UNT union.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 09:31 PM
The CTV is now practically discredited as most actual workers have now organized under the pro-Chavez UNT union.
As far as I understand, the UNT is not pro-Chavez, it is pro-workers.

Luís Henrique

[danny android]

Originally posted by Luís Henrique+Dec 19 2005, 02:39 PM--> (Luís Henrique @ Dec 19 2005, 02:39 PM)
[email protected] 18 2005, 09:31 PM
The CTV is now practically discredited as most actual workers have now organized under the pro-Chavez UNT union.
As far as I understand, the UNT is not pro-Chavez, it is pro-workers.

Luís Henrique [/b]
the two tend to run together in Venzuela.

[Commie Rat]

QUOTE (Commie Rat @ Dec 14 2005, 01:56 AM)
3) If he is a unionist then why is he fighting Chavez? They are both fighting for a better future for the workers of Venezuela


Ever heard of yellow unionism?

Luís Henrique

No im sorry i havent, i will google it


However Ortega got what he deserves I mean attempting a coup=treason

Hypothetical sittuation; In a commune treason wouldn't exist as you cant conspire against the state if there is none?

[danny android]

Well concidering Venezuela is not a mass commune but is a state, in that case it is treason. However if you lived in a peoples commune i do believe there could be treason. If you saught to create a totalitarian society I would concider treason against the people. So in a commune treason would be creating totalitarianism.

[Commie Rat]

I agree Danny, i know Venzueala is not at the commune stage it was just a hypothical Q.

[danny android]

Oh I know. I didn't see the question mark at first so i went back and added my two cents about treason in a commune.