ELN to begin talks in Cuba with Colombian gov't

[WUOrevolt]

Colombia rebels in Cuba for talks

Members of Colombia's second-largest rebel group have arrived in the Cuban capital to hold preliminary peace talks with the Colombian government.
A spokesman for the left-wing ELN said the meeting in Havana represented a big step in the search for peace.

The aim of the talks is to pave the way for a fully-fledged process to end the long-running conflict in Colombia.

A similar attempt in Cuba two years ago collapsed after a failure to agree on a framework for negotiations.

Rebel representatives from the National Liberation Army (ELN) and the Colombian authorities will hold several preparatory meetings throughout the week, ahead of the opening of formal exploratory talks on Friday.

Diplomats from Spain, Norway and Sweden are expected to attend.

The ELN and the larger Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (Farc) have been involved in a 40-year conflict with state forces and right-wing fighters.

'Convinced'

The government delegation is led by the country's high commissioner for peace, Luis Carlos Restrepo.

Mr Restrepo is expected to meet a number of leading ELN members, including the group's military commander, Antonio Garcia.

"We are convinced of the importance of this moment for the country to search for peace", ELN spokesman Francisco Galan told a news conference.

Galan is serving a 30-year sentence for rebellion, terrorism and kidnapping.

But the government allowed him to leave jail for three months in September in the hope that he would convince the rebels to begin talks.

The ELN has been active since 1964 and is believed to have 4,000 members.

Colombian President Alvaro Uribe has already started a peace process with the country's main right-wing paramilitary group, the United Self Defence Forces of Colombia (AUC).

Earlier this week, at least 2,000 combatants and a key leader of an AUC faction surrendered their weapons.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4523920.stm

[violencia.Proletariat]

i heard about this a while back. i find it funny how these talks are being held in Cuba. too bad for all those "christian revolutionaries" their only example is giving up :lol: why am i not suprised?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

"We are convinced of the importance of this moment for the country to search for peace", ELN spokesman Francisco Galan told a news conference.

So they want to lay down their arms?

[ReD_ReBeL]

meh FARC-EP and ELN r both corrupted rebel groups in my opinion, hijacking planes is not acceptable, and neither is taking tourists acceptable, these groups have got there guns mixed up with the ideology. they need to both drop there arms and Colombia needs a new Marxist group who jst strickst he military and military targerts. I dont want a reply saying well the government in Colombia and the paramilitaries have done far worse coz that is'nt an excuse for a Marxist group to go shooting the place up, thn becomes on par with the others groups. a struggle to free the peasants and the working class should never have to take the life of even 1 innocent being . therefore couldent giv a shit if thy give up arms or not

[violencia.Proletariat]

r both corrupted rebel groups

corrupted in what sense? that they use tactics you dont like? that doesnt make them corrupt.


hijacking planes

hah ive never heard this? evidence


and neither is taking tourists acceptable

i dont think they "attack" tourists. they may tax them or hold them for ransom but its guerilla warfare, what do you expect?


these groups have got there guns mixed up with the ideology

farc wants to end us imperialism, that requires guns, and lots of them.


they need to both drop there arms and Colombia needs a new Marxist group who jst strickst he military and military targerts.

the eln IS DROPPING THEIR ARMS, did you not read the article? who cares about them anyways.

farc does not need to drop their weapons, they will loose everything they have gained and they need them in their attacks on the state. they have to aquire funding in other ways (taxing coca, ransom [if this is even true] )


a struggle to free the peasants and the working class should never have to take the life of even 1 innocent being .

completely fucking unrealisitic. are you kidding me? people die in war, whether their on your side or not. you arent going to have a liberation struggle without violence.


therefore couldent giv a shit if thy give up arms or not

then why are you replying in this thread? what you are saying belongs in an "i hate the farc/ep because they shoot imperialists" thread.


you quote lenin!!!!!! lenin was responsible for TONS of peoples deaths. and they all werent those "evil capitalists". innocent people died in the russian civil war as in every other civil war and every war for that matter.

[ReD_ReBeL]

Mass abductions

The ELN rebels are the biggest kidnappers in Colombia and took over 800 hostages for ransom during 2001.

They also hit the headlines with a series of mass kidnapping operations starting in April 1999, during which they hijacked a domestic airliner, forced it to land on a deserted jungle airstrip and kidnapped the passengers and crew.

This was swiftly followed by the abduction of an entire church congregation during a service in the city of Cali. Guerrillas burst into the church and herded 150 worshippers and the priest into waiting trucks
ELN link to ^that article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1746914.stm)

And just becoz i quote Lenin does not mean i have to agree with everysingle thing he did.

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 02:26 AM
meh FARC-EP and ELN r both corrupted rebel groups in my opinion, hijacking planes is not acceptable, and neither is taking tourists acceptable, these groups have got there guns mixed up with the ideology. they need to both drop there arms and Colombia needs a new Marxist group who jst strickst he military and military targerts. I dont want a reply saying well the government in Colombia and the paramilitaries have done far worse coz that is'nt an excuse for a Marxist group to go shooting the place up, thn becomes on par with the others groups. a struggle to free the peasants and the working class should never have to take the life of even 1 innocent being . therefore couldent giv a shit if thy give up arms or not
AGREED. Well put red rebel, I applaud you.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

You fucking liberals are pathetic... I think you'd be better suited for http://www.liberalforum.org/

The ELN has been in strategic retreat since they were infiltrated by the "Liberation Theologists" and have taken every opportunity to take up reformism, so this is really nothing new. Soon many of them willl join their former enemies in the AUC in parliment and they'll take turns fucking the working class and poor peasantry.

FARC on the other hand refuses to discuss anything with the government and continues to control a sizeable chunk of the country.

[Correa]

ELN has betrayed the worker's cause. They are traitors in a similar fashion Evo Morales is. Viva FARC! :hammer:

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 05:25 AM
ELN has betrayed the worker's cause. They are traitors in a similar fashion Evo Morales is. Viva FARC! :hammer:
So true. I support FARC completely. It always pisses me off when people on this board attack FARC for their methods, "bombings, hijackings and kidnappings aren't acceptable, I'm a liberal posing as a leftist."

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by Guerrilla22+Dec 14 2005, 10:22 AM--> (Guerrilla22 @ Dec 14 2005, 10:22 AM)
[email protected] 14 2005, 05:25 AM
ELN has betrayed the worker's cause. They are traitors in a similar fashion Evo Morales is. Viva FARC! :hammer:
So true. I support FARC completely. It always pisses me off when people on this board attack FARC for their methods, "bombings, hijackings and kidnappings aren't acceptable, I'm a liberal posing as a leftist." [/b]
So you think bombings, hijackings, and kidnappings are okay? The FARC-EP, I believe has good aims, but they have caused poor peasants to flee their homes from the civil war. Why don't they just organize the wrokers in the giant peice of land granted to them by the colombian government, create a socialist utopia there, and maybe the workers in other areas of the country will follow. And if those other workers are attacked by the AUC, then the FARC should provide them with self defense.

[bolshevik butcher]

I have to say that I havenever thought of mutch of FARCs activities as being good for the socialist movement. However, I still support them against the columbrian government and the right wing paramilitaries.

[violencia.Proletariat]

The ELN rebels are the biggest kidnappers in Colombia and took over 800 hostages for ransom during 2001.

so what? this isnt a country where you can hold up your little sign and get waves. ITS A FUCKING WAR.


They also hit the headlines with a series of mass kidnapping operations starting in April 1999, during which they hijacked a domestic airliner, forced it to land on a deserted jungle airstrip and kidnapped the passengers and crew.

evidence?


This was swiftly followed by the abduction of an entire church congregation during a service in the city of Cali. Guerrillas burst into the church and herded 150 worshippers and the priest into waiting trucks

good! :lol: i hadnt heard of this but if its true it just made my day.


And just becoz i quote Lenin does not mean i have to agree with everysingle thing he did.

but you support him. so if you are gonna play that game, then why dont you just "ignore" the kidnappings. why not just ignore those "nice" capitalists too. why dont we just ignore the proletariat.

on a side note, LEARN TO SPELL. thank you.

[violencia.Proletariat]

So you think bombings, hijackings, and kidnappings are okay?

yes, its called guerilla warfare for a reason.


The FARC-EP, I believe has good aims, but they have caused poor peasants to flee their homes from the civil war.

they havent. they gain control over territories liberating peasants from government controlled land. if peasants choose to "flee" thats their own decision. in times of combat, you cant blame it on the farc for people fleeing to not get in the cross fire, its just as much the gov's fault.


Why don't they just organize the wrokers in the giant peice of land granted to them by the colombian government

the government would not do this. thats why they resort to the tactics they use.


create a socialist utopia there

and live happily ever after with the animals :lol: comepletely unrealistic if they havent seized state power.


And if those other workers are attacked by the AUC, then the FARC should provide them with self defense.

they already do that.

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by leftistmarleyist+Dec 14 2005, 03:17 PM--> (leftistmarleyist @ Dec 14 2005, 03:17 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 10:22 AM

[email protected] 14 2005, 05:25 AM
ELN has betrayed the worker's cause. They are traitors in a similar fashion Evo Morales is. Viva FARC! :hammer:
So true. I support FARC completely. It always pisses me off when people on this board attack FARC for their methods, "bombings, hijackings and kidnappings aren't acceptable, I'm a liberal posing as a leftist."
So you think bombings, hijackings, and kidnappings are okay? The FARC-EP, I believe has good aims, but they have caused poor peasants to flee their homes from the civil war. Why don't they just organize the wrokers in the giant peice of land granted to them by the colombian government, create a socialist utopia there, and maybe the workers in other areas of the country will follow. And if those other workers are attacked by the AUC, then the FARC should provide them with self defense. [/b]
The land they were granted was taken by the Colombian government. Federal soldiers invaded the area that they were granted and attacked FARC and ELN forces.

As far as kidnappings and bombings go, you do what you have to win the war. A guerrilla war isn't nice, their methods may seem crude to you but they do what they have to. The Colombian government is supplied with weapons from the uS. They are just as bad as FARC if not worse.

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by Guerrilla22+Dec 15 2005, 09:55 AM--> (Guerrilla22 @ Dec 15 2005, 09:55 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 10:22 AM

[email protected] 14 2005, 05:25 AM
ELN has betrayed the worker's cause. They are traitors in a similar fashion Evo Morales is. Viva FARC! :hammer:
So true. I support FARC completely. It always pisses me off when people on this board attack FARC for their methods, "bombings, hijackings and kidnappings aren't acceptable, I'm a liberal posing as a leftist."
So you think bombings, hijackings, and kidnappings are okay? The FARC-EP, I believe has good aims, but they have caused poor peasants to flee their homes from the civil war. Why don't they just organize the wrokers in the giant peice of land granted to them by the colombian government, create a socialist utopia there, and maybe the workers in other areas of the country will follow. And if those other workers are attacked by the AUC, then the FARC should provide them with self defense.
The land they were granted was taken by the Colombian government. Federal soldiers invaded the area that they were granted and attacked FARC and ELN forces.

As far as kidnappings and bombings go, you do what you have to win the war. A guerrilla war isn't nice, their methods may seem crude to you but they do what they have to. The Colombian government is supplied with weapons from the uS. They are just as bad as FARC if not worse. [/b]
I agree that the colombian government is worse than the FARC-EP, but that doesn't excuse what the FARC-EP does. If they are gonna have a guerrilla war, then just attack AUC military targets and the colombian power structures, and please do it in a way to limit the number of casualties, if there need to even be any.

[Guerrilla22]

Again, they have to do what they have to to win. This will not be accomplished by limiting attacks and by being careful to keep casaulties down. Che was crticized by the directorate for his measures, such as bombing the train and for calling for bank robberies. Che knew that a war can only be won by taking the necessary actions to win.

[violencia.Proletariat]

I agree that the colombian government is worse than the FARC-EP, but that doesn't excuse what the FARC-EP does.

maybe not but there is no better alternative in columbia. therfore if you are going to support something in columbia, it should be farc.



If they are gonna have a guerrilla war, then just attack AUC military targets and the colombian power structures, and please do it in a way to limit the number of casualties, if there need to even be any.

civilian casualties arent "planned". if farc is shoot "civilians" there is obviously a reason for it. they dont shoot people for fun. they may have been revealing information to the army on their whereabouts, etc.

[ReD_ReBeL]

what i dont get is how some of you people show support to the ELN because they use Liberation theology which is Christian based. and one of the main members of the ELN was a young catholic priest. i'm not saying i disagree with thm becoz of this becoz im open-minded towards religion.

"Liberation theology is an important and controversial school in the theology of the Catholic Church after the Second Vatican Council. It is often cited as a form of Christian socialism"

[Phalanx]

I can't believe there are people here that don't side with FARC! Revolution doesn't come by the peaceful minds of the optimists, it comes through those who realize that a tough struggle will bring a better life to those disenfranchised.

If FARC made it a policy to bomb a marketplace full of workers, there would be cause to break sympathies with them. But, we've seen their policy is to attack government forces.

I wish they could stop the cocoa trade, but does anyone have a better idea how to fund their struggle?

[violencia.Proletariat]

what i dont get is how some of you people show support to the ELN because they use Liberation theology which is Christian based. and one of the main members of the ELN was a young catholic priest. i'm not saying i disagree with thm becoz of this becoz im open-minded towards religion.

who are you talking about? i dont/never did support the eln. neither did a few other people here.

liberation theology is useless, obviously.

[ReD_ReBeL]

not completely useless, it still tried to help the poor and opressed just through god, which i admit is kinda dodgy , but as long as they do sumthing to try and help, while there is people sitting on there asses all day doing nothing.
Nelson Mandela is a Christian and he done alot for South Africa

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 09:05 PM
not completely useless, it still tried to help the poor and opressed just through god, which i admit is kinda dodgy , but as long as they do sumthing to try and help, while there is people sitting on there asses all day doing nothing.
Nelson Mandela is a Christian and he done alot for South Africa
liberation theology is very very very minute on the scale of the religious world. and its biggest advocates are now giving up, and im not suprised.

nelson mandela has nothing to do with this. he was not a revolutionary communist.

[Correa]

Sounds like reformist arguements to me. Who's side are you on? FARC's or the Uribe Government?

[ReD_ReBeL]

whos is that question pointing too Correa? if you are asking me it is probably FARC even though i dont like them but thy are trying to bring socialist change so has to be that.

[WUOrevolt]

I think that bank robberies are fine as a part of a revolution, but kidnapping is not acceptable. And if you are gonna bomb somewhere, you should at least make sure that people are evacuated before the bomb goes off.

If the FARC, ELN ,EZLN, etc. are gonna kill somebody, then they should be a soldier trying to kill them, so as to be acting in self defense.

Oh and guerrilla 22, did anyone die in the train bombing that Che called for?

[Guerrilla22]

Part of war is going on the offensive also. Nothing will ever be accomplished by simply shooting only when shot at. The point is people could have dies in the train bombing, sometimes FARC kills civillians inavertently and sometimes they don't its part of war. Liberals don't understand revolutionary movements.

also who is the EZLN killing? They haven't attacked anyone in years.

[ReD_ReBeL]

leftistmarleyist i'll tell the train bombing Che called for was not an public train, it was an government armoured train carrying weapons and equipment and soldiers

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 05:33 AM
leftistmarleyist i'll tell the train bombing Che called for was not an public train, it was an government armoured train carrying weapons and equipment and soldiers
was anyone killed?

[WUOrevolt]

The EZLN hasnt attacked anyone in years, and the people in their hands are doing much better than they were 12 years ago. They have made advances without going to war.

I absolutely love the EZLN.

[ReD_ReBeL]

not sure if anyone was killed but they were just Mines which derailed the train so i wouldent think so and if so just a handful of ppl, more likely just injuries

[Guerrilla22]

I love the EZLN also, however the EZLN is not a revolutionary movement, its a much different movement bassed on indigeneous rights.

[WUOrevolt]

Now I havent really develpoed this theory in great depth, it kind of just came to me, but what if rebel groups were to say in a declaration something like this: "We are the FARC, ELN, CCP, etc. and we are and represent the people of the mountain region of Colombia, Peru, Mexico, and we are fed up with your rule. We have established zones under rebel control, and no longer wish for you to govern us as we have a system of direct democracy in place with freedom, justice, and democracy for all. We do have X number of militants made up of villagers over 18 years of age from the villages which make up the rebel zones. We are ready and very prepared to defend ourselves against an army or paramilitary attack from the state that is directed at us."

Or something like that.

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 05:43 AM
I love the EZLN also, however the EZLN is not a revolutionary movement, its a much different movement bassed on indigeneous rights.
I would still consider them to be a revolutionary movement. Why don't you?

[Guerrilla22]

Not persay, their aim is not to change the Mexican politcal structure and government, but to secure a treaty with the mexican government gauranteeing them the right to their land and the right to a certain amount of self determination.

[Correa]

Anybody that is complaining about FARC's methods. We have better things to do that trash FARC. At least you support our side.

[ReD_ReBeL]

so what do you FARC loving people think of this barbaric action...

BOGOTA, Colombia -- The appalling story of
a rural woman who was blown apart by a
bomb placed around her neck after she
refused to meet the extortion demands of
Marxist guerrillas triggered a tidal wave of
indignation around Colombia on Tuesday.


``We are horrified. We are indignant, but
most of all we're determined to put an end to
this barbarity,'' President Andres Pastrana
said as he suspended a round of peace talks
with the nation's largest rebel group set for
May 29.


Even in a nation besieged by murders and
violence, the terrifying photos of a pitiful Elvia Cortes, 55, rigged
with a necklace
bomb moments before her death on Monday provoked a cry of anger from
outraged Colombians.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 11:41 PM
so what do you FARC loving people think of this barbaric action...

BOGOTA, Colombia -- The appalling story of
a rural woman who was blown apart by a
bomb placed around her neck after she
refused to meet the extortion demands of
Marxist guerrillas triggered a tidal wave of
indignation around Colombia on Tuesday.


``We are horrified. We are indignant, but
most of all we're determined to put an end to
this barbarity,'' President Andres Pastrana
said as he suspended a round of peace talks
with the nation's largest rebel group set for
May 29.


Even in a nation besieged by murders and
violence, the terrifying photos of a pitiful Elvia Cortes, 55, rigged
with a necklace
bomb moments before her death on Monday provoked a cry of anger from
outraged Colombians.
source? for all we know it could have been some drug dealer who did it and the government slapped the FARC label on it.

[violencia.Proletariat]

but kidnapping is not acceptable

i dont think you understand. the FARC is not some kind of invincible military force with endless supplies. they have to make money, one way they do this is by kidnapping tourists from wealthy countries and ask for money for their return.



Now I havent really develpoed this theory in great depth, it kind of just came to me, but what if rebel groups were to say in a declaration something like this: "We are the FARC, ELN, CCP, etc. and we are and represent the people of the mountain region of Colombia, Peru, Mexico, and we are fed up with your rule. We have established zones under rebel control, and no longer wish for you to govern us as we have a system of direct democracy in place with freedom, justice, and democracy for all. We do have X number of militants made up of villagers over 18 years of age from the villages which make up the rebel zones. We are ready and very prepared to defend ourselves against an army or paramilitary attack from the state that is directed at us."

Or something like that.

thats exactly what the farc has done. except for the part about how many members they have (that is a very stupid thing to reveal) and that they are all over 18. why cant a 16 or 17 yr old fight? they are opressed just as much as an 18 year old.

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 08:05 AM

but kidnapping is not acceptable

i dont think you understand. the FARC is not some kind of invincible military force with endless supplies. they have to make money, one way they do this is by kidnapping tourists from wealthy countries and ask for money for their return.



Now I havent really develpoed this theory in great depth, it kind of just came to me, but what if rebel groups were to say in a declaration something like this: "We are the FARC, ELN, CCP, etc. and we are and represent the people of the mountain region of Colombia, Peru, Mexico, and we are fed up with your rule. We have established zones under rebel control, and no longer wish for you to govern us as we have a system of direct democracy in place with freedom, justice, and democracy for all. We do have X number of militants made up of villagers over 18 years of age from the villages which make up the rebel zones. We are ready and very prepared to defend ourselves against an army or paramilitary attack from the state that is directed at us."

Or something like that.

thats exactly what the farc has done. except for the part about how many members they have (that is a very stupid thing to reveal) and that they are all over 18. why cant a 16 or 17 yr old fight? they are opressed just as much as an 18 year old.
But kidnappings and bombings and extortion are not included in what I wrote for a reason.

[WUOrevolt]

16 and 17 year olds are not legally adults, they are children and children should spend their days in school.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Actually in Colombia they are adults. The legal age for adulthood in Colombia is fourteen for males and twelve for females; ie. that's the age of consent. (Source: http://www.un-instraw.org/revista/hypermai...rs/en/0317.html (http://www.un-instraw.org/revista/hypermail/alltickers/en/0317.html) )

And as was said, they don't choose to be oppressed; but they are. Denying them the right to take up revolutionary action against their oppressors is just reactionary.

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 05:06 AM
16 and 17 year olds are not legally adults, they are children and children should spend their days in school.
They wouldn't be able to attend school anyways. Public school ends at elemetry school in most latin american countries. Those who want to contiue their education must pay to go to a private school.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Right, I mentioned the age of adulthood above, and the age most Colombians become employed is 15 for males and 14 for females. (Source: http://www.right-to-education.org/content/age/ )

And the Colombian Constitution of 1991 states in article 67, paragraph 3, that: "The State, society and the family are responsible for education, which shall be compulsory for children between the ages of five and fifteen years..."

[Spirit of '94]

Off Topic:

A comment was made earlier regarding the EZLN and how they were an indigenous rights movement.

I have to disagree with you, vehemently. The EZLN is very much about dismantling the Mexican political structure and government and replacing it with something else. They simply don't believe that their movement needs to install a political plan (even if they were able to) on the rest of the nation. They aren't a vanguard, if that's what you're craving.

The treaty that was referred to as the goal the EZLN is "seeking" is probably the San Andreas accord. This is indeed a kind of limited guarantee of indigenous autonomy as well as a peace plan. The EZLN has never, to my knowlege, called on ANY civil organization in ANY part of the world to discontinue the struggle against global capitalism, in all it's forms.

Check out "Our Word Is Our Weapon", edited by Juana Ponce de Leon. It's a collection of communiques and dispatches from the Zapatista General Command and Marcos. There's also copies of the documents all over the web.

Back on Topic:

At the risk of being labeled "reformist", I wonder: Do you believe that terrorism is a viable "tactic" in war when employed by the enemy?

For example, let's say the Uribe government orders the kidnapping of FARC family members. Is this a viable military action, regardless of it's strategic viability?

To me, it's absolutely inexcuseable. Strike military or economic targets. Yes, you're going to have civilian casualties. If you assault a major bank, you're probably going to kill several of the workers your movement attempts to mobilize. It's the nature of the thing. As said before, war, especially revolutionary ones, cannot be fully controlled. The bank is part of the state's physical infrastructure, and is therefore a legitimate target.

Somtimes, the line is going to overlap. If you're planning a strike against a major public figure (politician, cop, general, etc.) do you stop the operation because he's walking with his kids?

Unfortunately, you can't. But do you go to the kid's school, yank him out of class at gunpoint, possibly killing teachers, other staff or kids? No, you don't. It's counter-productive and smacks of the twisted nature of the enemy we're all united against.

I'm not passing judgement on FARC, because frankly, I can't get a good feel for what's going on down there. The right-wing paramilitaries are obviously the most sadistic organizations in Columbia, though, and it's only fairly recently that you could even distinguish them from the Columbian state aparatus. In some cases, you still probably can't.

Sitting here, I have no right to pass judgement. That said, I do question some of their tactical decisions. Car bombings? Narco trafficing? Are these really "revolutionary" activities?

What are some good news sources for Columbia? Is there anything like the Venezuela news sites on the net?

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 01:04 AM

But kidnappings and bombings and extortion are not included in what I wrote for a reason.
i really find this funny. do you think the FARC gives a shit about what you think? you dont live in columbia, you dont know the struggle. (im not saying that if you havent been places you cant have opinions on them) they HAVE to wage guerilla warfare. they arent strong enough to rely on standar military tactics. why does it matter? i dont expect the farc to be perfect liberators who would never harm a hair on any innocent persons body. but they are BETTER than the columbian government.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

on a side note, LEARN TO SPELL. thank you.

You have made some spelling mistakes, yourself.

[metalero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 10:41 PM
so what do you FARC loving people think of this barbaric action...

BOGOTA, Colombia -- The appalling story of
a rural woman who was blown apart by a
bomb placed around her neck after she
refused to meet the extortion demands of
Marxist guerrillas triggered a tidal wave of
indignation around Colombia on Tuesday.


``We are horrified. We are indignant, but
most of all we're determined to put an end to
this barbarity,'' President Andres Pastrana
said as he suspended a round of peace talks
with the nation's largest rebel group set for
May 29.


Even in a nation besieged by murders and
violence, the terrifying photos of a pitiful Elvia Cortes, 55, rigged
with a necklace
bomb moments before her death on Monday provoked a cry of anger from
outraged Colombians.
blatant lies! this is a well known sad episode of inhumanity that happened in Colombia 3 years ago; but it had nothing to do with the armed conflict. Common deliquency did extort that lady to pay some millions, and the motherfuckers killed her. As soon as the government knew about this, instead of investigating to find out the perpetrators, they blamed the FARC (as they usually do) since such a horrible crime would had been useful for propaganda against the insurgents. Some days later the own corporate media said it was common delinquency, and the militaries had to swallow their lies.
Actually most of kidnappings and extort against middle-class is perpetrated by common delinquency, something the government and the media take advantage of to portray FARC as "terrorists".
I'm actually not surprised you brought such an example of media manipulation. Why don't you bring the chainsaw massacres and tortures perpetrated by the paramilitary and their military allies? have you ever heard of "El Salado massacre"? have you realized that the 2 million displaced poor peasants leave their land to flee from state terror? Do you know who has these lands now? It's called counter-agrarian reform.
You keep bringing sensationalist news without doing the least research or analysis on class struggle and objective historical conditons. These kind of misinformation paramilitaries and the colombian oligarchy use to justify the statuo-quo. I'm getting suspicious of you.

[ReD_ReBeL]

WTF why are you suspicious of me? i dont know a whole great deal about FARC and posted that to get your opinions on it, and if you were meaning by 'im suspicious of you' as in that im some counter-revolutionary capitalist , thn you are wrong , im not, just becoz im a leftist does not mean i have to support every single movement. I dont support the IRA's stragetic moves. But i like there cause , but there actions rule them out in my opinion.

[metalero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 07:14 PM
WTF why are you suspicious of me? i dont know a whole great deal about FARC and posted that to get your opinions on it, and if you were meaning by 'im suspicious of you' as in that im some counter-revolutionary capitalist , thn you are wrong , im not, just becoz im a leftist does not mean i have to support every single movement. I dont support the IRA's stragetic moves. But i like there cause , but there actions rule them out in my opinion.
ok. it's that paramilitaries usually talk that way over here. If you don't know about the Colombian history, nor have done any objective research about this undeclared civil war, you should abstain from making such comments and quote ill-biased news.

[ReD_ReBeL]

ah right its ok lol i aint no right winger, you from Colombia?

[Correa]

I'm afraid he does. :P ;)

[Guerrilla22]

I have to disagree with you, vehemently. The EZLN is very much about dismantling the Mexican political structure and government and replacing it with something else. They simply don't believe that their movement needs to install a political plan (even if they were able to) on the rest of the nation. They aren't a vanguard, if that's what you're craving

Yes however they do not call for nor is their movement about overthrowing the Mexican government. They simply wish to change thinking in mainstream mexican politics. If you read through various communiques put out by them you can see that their ideology is not Marxist based, but one based on indigeneous rights.


This is indeed a kind of limited guarantee of indigenous autonomy as well as a peace plan.
Yes, this can be described as the right to self determination, which I stated earlier.


At the risk of being labeled "reformist", I wonder: Do you believe that terrorism is a viable "tactic" in war when employed by the enemy?

I don't consider FARC to be the enemy. My argument is based on the reality that a Guerrilla army needs to go on the offensive and employ techniques like bombings, in order to be effective. Most if not all of FARC's bombings do target military or politcal targets, however at times their acts have caused collateral damage, which is innetvitable in war.

As far a skidnappings and being involved in the drug trade goes, they have no choice but to engage in these kinds of activties to raise money for their cause. The US provides the Colombian government with 2 billion in arms and hardware annually, as well as help from US special forces.

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 06:51 AM


I have to disagree with you, vehemently. The EZLN is very much about dismantling the Mexican political structure and government and replacing it with something else. They simply don't believe that their movement needs to install a political plan (even if they were able to) on the rest of the nation. They aren't a vanguard, if that's what you're craving

Yes however they do not call for nor is their movement about overthrowing the Mexican government. They simply wish to change thinking in mainstream mexican politics. If you read through various communiques put out by them you can see that their ideology is not Marxist based, but one based on indigeneous rights.
Just because they aren't Marxists doesn't mean that they don't deserve our full-fledged support. They are definitely a Socialist movement, even if their doctrine doesn't say that directly. Just look at what they're doing in Oaxaca, Chiapas, and Guerrero.

Communists supported and assisted in the end of Apartheid, played a huge role in the end of colonialism, etc. These were not Marxist causes, but still a step toward liberation.

Don't be all Soviet-Orthodox about who you support. The EZLN is making some very visible strides in the thinking within Mexican society, when I went back to visit family in Michoacan over the summer I saw a great deal of support and sympathy for the Zapatistas. Michoacan is also one of the most Left-wing states in the country, but regardless. The EZLN doesn't have the funding, the resources, or the size to overthrow the Mexican government or even put up a reasonable fight against it, and they're doing what they can with what they have, which is little. What they are doing is extremely respectable and should be supported by all of us.


Arriba el Ejercito Zapatista de Liberacion Nacional!

But yeah, FARC is okay based on the little I know about them, they are obviously the better alternative but I am not incredibly nostailgic (sp) about them.

[Spirit of '94]

Yes however they do not call for nor is their movement about overthrowing the Mexican government. They simply wish to change thinking in mainstream mexican politics. If you read through various communiques put out by them you can see that their ideology is not Marxist based, but one based on indigeneous rights.

We're splittin' hairs. I still disagree with you, but if you want to talk more about it, I'd be happy to. PM me. :) I don't think further comparison with the EZLN is fair to FARC or neccessary for the discussion here. You're point is valid, though, just a matter as to what extent.


I don't consider FARC to be the enemy. My argument is based on the reality that a Guerrilla army needs to go on the offensive and employ techniques like bombings, in order to be effective. Most if not all of FARC's bombings do target military or politcal targets, however at times their acts have caused collateral damage, which is innetvitable in war.

Oh no! :ph34r: I don't consider FARC the enemy either!

I should have been more clear. Enemy = Columbian State/Right wing paras/U.S. support base.

It seems like we're just going over the same issues here:

The need for FARC to use guerrilla tactics is RECOGNIZED by, I think, most everyone here. My question is whether kidnapping, carbombings in heavily populated civilian areas, narco trafficking, etc. are "guerilla" tactics or just terrorism.

Changing the "cause" doesn't make a suicide bomber a revolutionary. A communist suicide bomber running into a disco is still a terrorist.

Striking legitimate targets (state economic/military) is neccessary. I think we all kinda agree that this is acceptable.

I think we all acknowledge that in war, innocents die. If we're going to voice support for FARC, we accept these casualties. It's a tragedy, but so is the "peaceful" situation in Columbia.

My main point was that FARC has used terrorism and narco trafficking in addition to, what I view as, legitimate military tactics. I'm not saying "STOP SUPPORTING THEM!", I'm just saying that they've used tactics I view as immoral and counterproductive.

But, shit, I'm sitting in the northwestern U.S. They're the ones fighting.

I just think that if they'd curtail the narco trade and try communicating with the international community they'd be better off. It's these tactics that are, in my view, keeping them from receiving substantial outside support, and are therefore counter-productive to their military campaign.

We even have leftists posting the U.S. machine's propoganda. :ph34r: I think there's a need for the FARC to get its message out to people. And that message can't include car bombs and cocaine.

[Tekun]

I support las FARC and all that they stand for
But what bothers me, is not the kidnappings or the car bombs that are intended for political/military targets, but the drugs
Which in my opinion, do more harm to their reputation as revolutionaries, than any violence in which they engage in
I mean, therez been certain reports that implicate them as taxing drug harvesting
But other reports, implicate them as meeting with drug kingpins
Can anyone clarify this for me

[Guerrilla22]

Just because they aren't Marxists doesn't mean that they don't deserve our full-fledged support.

I completely support the EZLN, I was just saying that there is a distinct difference between the revolutionary struggle of FARC and the EZLN in terms of tatics and what each group is trying to accomplish.


I don't think further comparison with the EZLN is fair to FARC or neccessary for the discussion here.

An excellent point, the two struggles really isn't fair since FARC is in fact a vanguard movement.



Which in my opinion, do more harm to their reputation as revolutionaries, than any violence in which they engage in
I mean, therez been certain reports that implicate them as taxing drug harvesting
But other reports, implicate them as meeting with drug kingpins
Can anyone clarify this for me

Here's why they need to be involved in the drug trade to support their movement:

On July 13, 2000, President Clinton signed Plan Colombia into law, making Colombia the third largest recipient of US foreign aid, and a focus of US foreign policy.

Through Plan Colombia and related initiatives, the U.S. has invested nearly three billion dollars in Colombia's civil war. Most of the aid is attack helicopters, weaponry, hi-tech surveillance planes and equipment. Much of the money outfits and trains "counter-narcotics batallions" for a Push into Southern Colombia. These batallions combat left-wing guerrillas, and they include soldiers who violate the human rights of Colombian civilians. More than 2000 US military personnel are stationed in Colombia, providing direct support to the Colombian government in the counter-insurgency war.

Every budget cycle has included new increases in aid to Colombia and neighboring countries. In 2003, using the "War on Terror" as a justification, the Bush Administration won more increases in military aid and involvement, including a $100 million military aid project to protect an oil pipeline in Northern Colombia. That money was attached directly to the Bush request for funds for the war in Iraq!

http://www.antiwarcommittee.org/resources/Colombia/

[metalero]

My question is whether kidnapping, carbombings in heavily populated civilian areas, narco trafficking, etc. are "guerilla" tactics or just terrorism.


Kidnapping is wrong. It is the weakest point in guerrilla warfare. The question is why they do it or who they kidnapp. Besides, the number of forced abductions and disappearances perpetrated by state security forces largely outnumber the kidnapping of oligarchs. Here is a quote from this interview (http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~lporras/Compassionate%20Communication/interviewreyes.htm) with FARC commander Raul Reyes where he explains it:

"Then how does the guerrilla movement support itself?

Reyes: From its creation in 1964 - on 27 May we celebrated our 37th anniversary -the FARC has developed several ways to self-finance itself.

Wherever we are, depending on the climate, the fronts, blocs and companies produce. What do they produce? Beans, sugar cane, brown-sugar loaves, fodder. We raise cattle, pigs and chickens. In this region - San Vicente del Caguan - there are about 100,000 fish in breeding ponds.

We have large plantain and yucca crops. There are also businessmen and owners of shops who provide us with rice, beans, sugar, clothes and things like that. In addition to all this, the FARC charges a tax. We have explained this openly in law 002. This law consists of demanding that national businesses and private citizens with more than 1 million dollars to their name must pay taxes.

We have been charging this tax. And the people pay it because they know they have to do so. There are others who do not want to pay the tax and they are the "tax evaders".

Because the FARC has no jails, these people are held until they pay. They are the ones we are said to have kidnapped. They also describe as kidnapped those soldiers and policemen taken prisoners in combat. Later, this entire story about the kidnappings also becomes part of the campaign of those who are seeking to show the FARC as an organization that violates the principles of humanitarian international law.

The people, however, are the victims of violation of their human rights by the governments."

Double standards are commonly used by the media to twist the revolutionary class war. Here's another interview that can answer your questions:

"Do you have any message for the activists in the United States who are opposed to U.S. intervention in Colombia?

The case of Colombia has been the subject of massive disinformation in the world and particularly in the United States. This is a result of manipulation of public opinion by reactionary and pro-war sectors.

Our struggle is just and necessary. Our objective is the building of a new Colombia in peace with social justice and sovereignty. We are a revolutionary organization that has nothing to do with drug trafficking or terrorism. We do not target the interests of the people, of which we are an integral part.

The war we are living through is the responsibility of the state, because it has left no other road. The battles that we carry out are against the organs of the state and the promoters of the dirty war.

It is not true that we carry out so-called "takeovers" of towns. Our objectives are the army barracks and police stations that the state irresponsibly locates in the interior of towns. Generally the neighbors of these targets are themselves part of the state security organisms, not civilians as it is presented.

Neither does the FARC-EP carry out "armed strikes" [work stoppages]. Rather, we call on the people to mobilize themselves and struggle in every form. The stories of armed strikes correspond to the manipulation of information in order to justify whatever actions are taken against the people participating in strikes, blockades or meetings. With this excuse they murder leaders and pass them off as guerrillas infiltrating the campaigns of mass struggle.

Military intelligence and enemies of the current talks and the FARC-EP have mounted a campaign of threats against many people, which are broadcast by the big media in order to de-legitimize us. But they never talk about the hundreds of people in exile and the nearly two million displaced people. This is clear proof of their well-defined class conception, where on one side there are those beyond reproach and on the other those of secondary importance--the ignored, the poor.

We thank Workers World for the possibility of bringing this information to the U.S. people. We are sure that the people of the United States will know how to display their solidarity with the Colombian people in this struggle for the construction of peace and for national liberation."

full article http://www.workers.org/ww/2000/farc0406.php