Irish History

[SanPatricio'sSoul]

First and Foremost I apologize if this is supposed to be in the learning section, cause this is historical.

I as many Irish-Americans feel a strong cultural bond with Ireland. But I realized not to long ago, that other then the struggle of the San Patricios (which is Irish-American history) I don't know a thing. I've noticed a couple of Irish brothers up on here, so if you guys could enlighten me some I would be greatly appreciated.

Peace Love,
Dave

[ComradeOm]

Well a pretty good place to start, as with everything, is Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ireland). Have a look through that and if you’ve any questions give me a shout :)

Its been pretty much Celtic society and culture before the 12th century or so and struggle against increasing English influence from then until 1922 (to the present including the North). Compared to mainland European history its not very exciting but perhaps that’s because I’ve grown up with it.

[barista.marxista]

I just bought a used out-of-print copy of Ireland and the Irish Question, a collection of Marx's writings on the subject. I've yet to receive it, but anticipate it, as Ireland remains in almost the exact same status today as it did then, so it should prove to be very interesting and pertinent.

[symtoms_of_humanity]

ComradeOm I don't seem to understand your Engels quote :huh:

[ComradeOm]

I've yet to receive it, but anticipate it, as Ireland remains in almost the exact same status today as it did then, so it should prove to be very interesting and pertinent.
In what way? Irish society has seen some major changes in the past decade alone.


ComradeOm I don't seem to understand your Engels quote
No? It seems pretty straightforward to me. What do you find difficult about it?

[symtoms_of_humanity]

I don't get why he said it, and what it is supposed to mean, becuase Irish aren't carefree and what ever it said

[The Grey Blur]

What's wrong with that quote? It's entirely true! - Us Irish are carefree, cheerful, potato-eating children of nature; everyone knows that!

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 08:40 PM
I don't get why he said it, and what it is supposed to mean, becuase Irish aren't carefree and what ever it said
I use this quote because 1) I find it amusing and 2) it illustrates that all men are products of their times.

[RevolverNo9]

Engels is responsible for an immense amount of the ills that Marxism has suffered in ideolgical terms.

[Seven Stars]

You can go to Up The Ra (http://www.upthera.net) and there is some links in the forum (http://www.upthera.net/forum).

[unite2fight1984]

The fight against Limey oppression is one of the most just causes of nationality and freedom that has existed. It is not some imaginary line for which the RAs are fighting but rather the unity of the Emerald Isle and all its people.

[Atlas Swallowed]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 08:40 PM
I don't get why he said it, and what it is supposed to mean, becuase Irish aren't carefree and what ever it said
Ireland had a great culture and was a center for learning before the English tried to destroy thier culture. The English have always tried to portray the Irish as simple uneducated bufoons and drunkards. They even went as far as making thier native language illigal. The quote is racist and idiotic.

[Vanguard1917]

ComradeOm, where did Engels make that statement? If he did actually make that statement I'd really like to read the context in which it was made - because, in isolation, that statement comes across as simple-minded racism and 'Atlas Swallowed' has a point. So could you provide the source?

[The Grey Blur]

ComradeOm is from Ireland and thus can appreciate the hilarity of Engels' statement and it is also a good way of making the point that "all men are a product of their time" like Engels' thinking the Irish are cheerful, potato-loving people, like Marx saying a couple of things that sound insane/racist nowadays.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 12:30 PM
ComradeOm, where did Engels make that statement? If he did actually make that statement I'd really like to read the context in which it was made - because, in isolation, that statement comes across as simple-minded racism and 'Atlas Swallowed' has a point. So could you provide the source?
A source? Here we go, it was an article (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/05/16.htm) (Issue 51, the last on that page) for some German paper (at least I assume that's what Schweizerischer Republikaner was) criticising Daniel O'Connell, the pre-eminent Irish politician of that time. As an aside on the history, its an interesting criticism of the Emancipator and his unwillingness to use his popularity to demand anything more than piecemeal rights.

Though if you think that this statement is racist its mild compared to some other choice lines in the article. Apparently Engels believed that the Irishman was a half savage whose first contact with civilisation was working in England. No wonder that we are in a "state of permanent irritation, of continually smouldering fury, which makes [us] capable of anything."

Do these statements lessen any of the respect I have for Engels? Of course not. The romantic notion of the cheery/angry Gael is one that has persisted until recently and one that even the most intelligent of men have believed. Like the idea of the "noble savage" its condensing and born out of ignorance. As I said, all men are products of their time and environment.

Despite this the piece in question is still an excellent and accurate insight into O’Connell and the Anglo-Irish politics of the period.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by Rage Against The Machine+--> (Rage Against The Machine)ComradeOm is from Ireland and thus can appreciate the hilarity of Engels' statement and it is also a good way of making the point that "all men are a product of their time" like Engels' thinking the Irish are cheerful, potato-loving people, like Marx saying a couple of things that sound insane/racist nowadays.[/b]

Indeed. It is a point I think that many people miss, Engels and Marx were bourgeois intellectuals.

Therefore if the materialist concept "being determines consciousness" holds true, Marx and Engels "being" will have effected their "consciousness."

Therefore certain comments by both Marx and Engels can be dismissed as bourgeois waffle.


Originally posted by RevolverNo9+--> (RevolverNo9)Engels is responsible for an immense amount of the ills that Marxism has suffered in ideolgical terms.[/b]

Could you elaborate on this? .....I know some people have a problem with Engels version of dialectal materialism and some Marxists think that the foundations of Leninism can be found in Engels work.

I think Engels certainly can be attributed some of the blame for Kautsky and "reformism." And perhaps he can also be blamed slightly for Leninism, but I don't think in either case, Engels deserves that much blame.


Originally posted by unite2fight1984
The fight against Limey oppression is one of the most just causes of nationality and freedom that has existed.

If you are not aware, I will point it out. Not many people here are tolerant of ethnic slurs and the word "limey" certainly fits in that category when applied to someone from England.


[email protected]
The romantic notion of the cheery/angry Gael is one that has persisted until recently and one that even the most intelligent of men have believed.

I think certain stereotypes of the English colonies are relatively accurate. The Welsh for instance were backward and it is my opinion that English rule has actually advanced Wales.

Wales is one of the few colonial success stories.


ComradeOm
As I said, all men are products of their time and environment.

Indeed.

[Batman]

James Connolly's Labour in Irish History is a good start. http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1910/lih/

There are hundreds of books on Irish History around the place.

[Re-visionist 05]

I personally think that Johnathan Swifts "a moderate proposal" has the best solution for the problems of the Irish. As morbid as it is, its pretty much a fool-proof aurgument.

I think what brought Ireland to fall so easily inder english control, was the fact that it had no central ruler. It was ruled by a high king, who was chosen from about a dozen different ones. Unity has always been a problem for the Irish people, and it continues to this day, in my opinion.