Stanley "Tookie" Williams denied clemency

[barista.marxista]

US ex-gang boss denied clemency
California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has denied clemency to former gang leader Stanley "Tookie" Williams.

Barring a last-minute intervention by federal courts, Williams, 51, will be executed on Tuesday.

Earlier on Monday, California's Supreme Court and a federal appeals court both refused a stay of execution.

A co-founder of the notorious Crips street gang, Williams denies murdering four people in 1979.

"After studying the evidence, searching the history, listening to the arguments and wrestling with the profound consequences, I could find no justification for granting clemency," Mr Schwarzenegger said.

"The facts do not justify overturning the jury's verdict or the decisions of the courts in this case," the governor added.

Williams is scheduled to receive a lethal injection at 0001 (0801 GMT) at San Quentin prison, north of San Francisco.

During his 24 years in jail, Williams has won praise for his anti-gang books, earning Nobel Peace Prize nominations for his teachings.

However, the relatives of some of his victims have insisted he does not deserve clemency.

BBC source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4523098.stm)

Reactions to this state-sponsored lynching?

[BattleOfTheCowshed]

This is some of the most fucked-up shit. There should be fucking rioting in the streets, there should be protests. Another victim of the class-war.

[Intifada]

Why the fuck is this whole issue being decided upon by one man anyway?

Schwarznegger shouldn't have such powers.

[RedAnarchist]

Blood thirsty Republicans will never grant mercy to someone - they are like vultures swooping around carrion.


The death penalty is barbaric, which means it suits the US Republican Party.

[fpeppett]

pretty sad day tomorrow, anyone see the film on tookies life, played by jamie foxx, quite a fiar account of his life from my view.

Anyway theres no changiing the law now, even if it was decided by just ONE person, the judge practically overturned all the evidence supporting him.

R.I.P Stanley Tookie Williams

[Hefer]

I'm thinknig there will be riots in the LA area; idono if i should be worried, since I live in the LA area ;).

[BattleOfTheCowshed]

Actually some religious leaders in Los Angeles did issue a request that area people not riot if Tookie is killed. I dont know the exposure the the issue has there though. The last riots happened over the Rodney King trial which was all over the news, this issue doesnt seem to have the exposure however.

[Hampton]

This is some of the most fucked-up shit. There should be fucking rioting in the streets, there should be protests. Another victim of the class-war.

IF there is to be rioting, let it be because there are over a million men like Tookie in jail, not because he is dead.

[ReD_ReBeL]

hmmm didn't this guy not like murder a whole family? what about the people he killed? there life cannot be replaced

[Master Che]

Is he already dead?

[Master Che]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 09:55 PM
Blood thirsty Republicans will never grant mercy to someone - they are like vultures swooping around carrion.


The death penalty is barbaric, which means it suits the US Republican Party.
Republican party= Democractic party= National socialist party. Its practically the same shit!

[Correa]

Tookie's last words should be......"I call for all Crips to bang on the system and bring it down to its knees." I wish the LA gangs would stop fighting each other and attack the system that oppresses them all.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 09:37 PM
hmmm didn't this guy not like murder a whole family? what about the people he killed? there life cannot be replaced
if you consider his trial to be proof of this. but its not necessarly about what he did but the reasons why he is on death row (racism, class)

[lovebombanarchy]

keep in mind, he was also nominated for a nobel peace prize for his work against gang violence upon being incarcerated.

[Bannockburn]

I'm not surprised that Schwarzenegger decided on what he decided. However, despite William's murder by the state, I'm more concerned with the larger effects in general.

I'm under the assumption that Williams has killed in his youth, that he was dangerous, perhaps still dangerous, and he may or may not be guilty of what he is convicted for. Despite that assumption, that doesn't negate the fact of what his life has been prior to his original prison system.

The point to the penal system is two fold. One is to punish the offender, and two to deter potential crimes, and future potential criminals. That is one face. The other face of the penal system is to try to reform the prisoner. This is obvious, and I'm not speaking about anything new or extraordinary. However, I think all of William's work, all for what he has done should give him some kind of credit, and as a result his life should not be taken. I'm incline to think what kind of message will this be for other individuals? It doesn't matter how much you do for the community, for the youth, etc...its not good enough because of the age old argument, “not matter what he does he can't bring back the lives he stole”. Granted that is true. I don't disagree. However, how many lives has he saved for not being killed or stolen? Probably more than he took.

[pepsipaul]

Tookie's last words should be......"I call for all Crips to bang on the system and bring it down to its knees." I wish the LA gangs would stop fighting each other and attack the system that oppresses them all.

Wow, you really make your party look bad. I am a conservative republican to let you know. I can't believe that you want our system brought down to its knees. You left wingers are insane! You actually want a 4 time convicted murderer to get clemency? It's understandable if you're against the death penalty for religious reasons, but you're a lefty.

[Correa]

Wow, you really make your party look bad.

Our party already bumbrushed the white house. What else could we do to "look bad".


I am a conservative republican to let you know.

Bwhahahaha! :lol:


I can't believe that you want our system brought down to its knees. You left wingers are insane! You actually want a 4 time convicted murderer to get clemency?

Your president has a much higher body count asshole.


It's understandable if you're against the death penalty for religious reasons, but you're a lefty.

...but I'm a lefty? This isn't FOX's News forum....take your garbage to Opposing Ideologies. :angry:

[Zingu]

Wow, you really make your party look bad.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

WOW, Aren't you naive? You have alot of learning too.

Fuck political parties! You're talking to revolutionaries, not fucking reformists!

[Master Che]

Wow, you really make your party look bad.
Oh how so? :lol:



I am a conservative republican to let you know.
Liberal democrat=conservative republican=national socialist. Your just like the other 2 shitty parties.



I can't believe that you want our system brought down to its knees.
What would you expect, me and my family starved just so i could go to school when i was a kid. WHY would i like a system like that




You left wingers are insane! You actually want a 4 time convicted murderer to get clemency?
Its a hell of alot less then your feurers body count.



It's understandable if you're against the death penalty for religious reasons, but you're a lefty.

Man, take that bullshit to OI :angry: .

[Bannockburn]

Wow, you really make your party look bad. I am a conservative republican to let you know. I can't believe that you want our system brought down to its knees. You left wingers are insane! You actually want a 4 time convicted murderer to get clemency? It's understandable if you're against the death penalty for religious reasons, but you're a lefty.


Well, I tend to think that we are not a party. In fact, I'm sure if you read something outside of what you've been told you would know, according to Tocqueville that parties are the necessary evil or republican government. They form into a group and then tell you what to think, do and say. A minority to dictate the good of the majority. They choose the issues, and exclude issues. They include what is good for you, and not good for you. You don't decide. They decide.

How can you be such a slave? So, really ipso facto we are not a party.

What system do you mean? The penal system which incarcerated poor women, men and children of all races because they are considered a burden to the economic system? A work force behind bars? Victims of the very system you propagate and then blame for their circumstances? An incarceration rate which is almost as high as that of Hitler and Stalin? Perhaps you're not even talking about the penal system. Perhaps you are talking about the economic system which enslaves all people and brings out wage slavery, debt slavery, and a meaningless life. An economic system which encourages us to be lazy and hide behind opinions and customs and what businessmen tells us what is good.

They say profit is the reward of the risk capitalist take for investment. We say profit is theft of the surplus value which the workers create. They say businessmen take risk, and profit is their reward. We say the workers take risks everyday by putting their bodies, and lives on the line. Where is their reward?

We don't want to bring it to its knees. We want to bury it into a dark history of mankind and redistribute the material conditions.

Conviction is nothing. Bush says he has conviction of being a Christian, but is more than willing to kill and destroy for greed.

[Guerrilla22]

he's set to die in three minutes.

[TupacAndChe4Eva]

R.I.P. Tookie.

Born into a society that didn't want you, raised by that society to become what you became, locked-up, and then murdered.

Load of shit.

L.A. is going to burn.

[Tekun]

I hardly doubt that therez gonna be rioting in LA
Too many ppl have suffered as a result of gang warfare, and in the eyes of many, he represented gangs - even if he denounced them

Personally, I condemn America and its justice system
Its racist, biased, and hipocritical
Yet, Tookie murdered 4 ppl in cold blood

The man co-founded the West Side Crips....a gang that has murdered countless of innocent ppl in LA since the early 70's
I applaud all that he did, in jail, against gangs and their actions
In jail, he did more than many other ppl do in their entire lives

Yet, if u commit a vicious crime against innocent ppl, the state has the power to give u the punishment they deem
Those 4 ppl that Tookie murdered for $300, were innocent civilians that had done nothing
Doesn't matter under what government u live, if u kill for $$ or as a gang initiation, then u deserve whatever the courts give u

The same goes for anyone and even Cuba believes in executing those that commit severe crimes
So I believe in an eye for an eye, just like any revolutionary

BTW, I don't understand all these "Save Tookie, Fuck the death penalty" protests
I guess they haven't been paying attention to the number of Iraqi civilians that their government has killed

Just last night in Compton, a 17 yr old HS student, with no gang affiliation was shot to death while she sat in her car
Did anyone protest? No one did shit
Ppl in the community should be protesting and taking up arms to defend them and their community from gangs
Yet, their fear inables them to do this
^And for this I see those "protests" as ridiculous and unfounded

RIP Tookie

[dso79]

I have always been against the death penalty. Therefore I believe Tookie should not have been executed. However, I don’t regard him as some kind of hero or an innocent victim; he was a violent gang member who was fully aware of what he was doing.

It’s good to see that there have been so many protests, though I believe the protesters should have focused more on the fact that the death penalty is morally wrong, instead of trying to convince everyone that Tookie wasn’t a criminal.

[Craig]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 05:55 PM
I have always been against the death penalty. Therefore I believe Tookie should not have been executed. However, I don’t regard him as some kind of hero or an innocent victim; he was a violent gang member who was fully aware of what he was doing.

It’s good to see that there have been so many protests, though I believe the protesters should have focused more on the fact that the death penalty is morally wrong, instead of trying to convince everyone that Tookie wasn’t a criminal.
I think you have come closer to the truth than many other people who have commented here.

While we cannot ignore the fact that class and race play a heavy role in our so-called "justice" system, Williams is hardly the martyr some have made him out to be. That doesn't excuse his execution, but it does make us look silly when we argue that innocence and/or redemption are the reasons to spare his life. "Tookie" was murdered by the state as over 1,000 others have been since the Supreme Court brought the death penalty back in 1976. That's bad enough.

If we are opposed to the death penalty, then guilt or innocence is irrelevant. When we fall back on these lesser arguments, we look wishy-washy and leave ourselves open for attack. If we argue innocence and then new evidence comes to light, our argument falls apart. If we argue redemption and then he later returns to bad habits, our argument again falls apart. We should instead take a principled position: the state has no right to kill.

I would also add that the Crips are not a revolutionary or socially progressive force, and the guy that hoped for a gangster uprising against the corrupt system is dangerously naive.

Note: I edited this post for some minor grammatical errors!

[Correa]

Yet, Tookie murdered 4 ppl in cold blood

This is has to be proven. Tookie says he is innocent and there is not conrete evidence to convict him.


Those 4 ppl that Tookie murdered for $300, were innocent civilians that had done nothing

They were petty bourgeois that owned a motel. I won't miss em'. I'll miss tookie though.


Ppl in the community should be protesting and taking up arms to defend them and their community from gangs. Yet, their fear inables them to do this

No, the gangs need to bang on the system instead of each other. In other words, Revolutionary But Gansta! Just like Dead Prez (http://www.deadprez.com) rhyme about.

[Ownthink]

They were petty bourgeois that owned a motel. I won't miss em'. I'll miss tookie though.
That's awful asshole-ish of you to say. He murdered some Asians whom he called "buddha heads". Quit being a dick and saying people are "bourgeois" or "petty bourgeois" and look at his motives for a second. It wasn't revolutionary, it was gang violence that some innocent peopel got caught up in. Don't try to apologize or say "I won't miss them because they happen to own a motel and may happen to be petty bourgeois".

Yes, they MAY have been petty bourgeois. Or, they could've been immigrants who migrated here and started a small hotel in America, or wished to improve their lives. But please, do not dismiss their death as a non loss and this fucking gangster piece of trash as someone good. And to quote a relatively good movie... " Don't be so quick to deal out death and judgement!"

Who cares if they were "petty bourgeois" or middle class? They were people who weren't worker-exploiting money grubbing CEO's, so their death is a loss. Try not to classigy people so much. They were innocents caught up in gang violence, and I wish everyone would quit apologizing for this gangster murderer!

[Correa]

That's awful asshole-ish of you to say. He murdered some Asians whom he called "buddha heads". Quit being a dick and saying people are "bourgeois" or "petty bourgeois" and look at his motives for a second.

Assuming he did it. You assume he did? Guess so...


It wasn't revolutionary, it was gang violence that some innocent peopel got caught up in. Don't try to apologize or say "I won't miss them because they happen to own a motel and may happen to be petty bourgeois".

Revolutionary it was not and I think it is quite obvious. If I told you that I would miss them I'd be lying. Should I lie? ;)


Yes, they MAY have been petty bourgeois.

May? They were!


Or, they could've been immigrants who migrated here and started a small hotel in America, or wished to improve their lives.

Ah yes! Lets defend those who start small business! You can convince a worker to take up arms, but you can't convince a capitalist to join us. I think you miss the point. If Tookie Williams killed them, he killed class enemies? I'm not sure this is something to loos any sleep over.


And to quote a relatively good movie... " Don't be so quick to deal out death and judgement!"

What move is that?


Who cares if they were "petty bourgeois" or middle class?

"Me. That's who!" What movie is that from? :)


They were people who weren't worker-exploiting money grubbing CEO's, so their death is a loss. Try not to classigy people so much. They were innocents caught up in gang violence, and I wish everyone would quit apologizing for this gangster murderer!

Sure they were not at the top of the capitalist food chain. So what? A cappie is a cappie is a cappie. :P If anyone should apologizing for this "ganster murderer" it should be the capitalist! Not us!

[BattleOfTheCowshed]

Personally, I condemn America and its justice system
Its racist, biased, and hipocritical
Yet, Tookie murdered 4 ppl in cold blood

I assure you that for all of its problems, the American Justice system pales in its racism and oppression in comparison to the American ECONOMIC/SOCIETAL system. Tookie (and the millions upon millions of others just like him) are just products of American capitalism, as long as that exists, people like Tookie will continue to exist. Killing him will do absolutely nothing in the greater scope of "fighting crime".


Yet, if u commit a vicious crime against innocent ppl, the state has the power to give u the punishment they deem
Those 4 ppl that Tookie murdered for $300, were innocent civilians that had done nothing
Doesn't matter under what government u live, if u kill for $$ or as a gang initiation, then u deserve whatever the courts give u

The same goes for anyone and even Cuba believes in executing those that commit severe crimes
So I believe in an eye for an eye, just like any revolutionary

Oh..well, if Cuba does it then it MUST be good... :rolleyes: . First of all the fact that you blindly follow whatever Cuba does it somewhat sickening, and Che Guevara (who you rock in your icon) would be sickened at the thought. More importantly however, this ignores the fact that Cuba and the United States are distinctly different societies in which class dynamics play completely different roles in the justice system, equating them is incredibly stupid.


BTW, I don't understand all these "Save Tookie, Fuck the death penalty" protests
I guess they haven't been paying attention to the number of Iraqi civilians that their government has killed

The hell? How does supporting Tookie mean you don't follow the war or anything about Iraqi civilian deaths? In my mind the two seem to correlate more than anything. For your information I have been one of the organizers and main participants in those save-Tookie campaigns AS WELL as participating in nearly every anti-war protest in my area, participating in counter-recruitment campaigns, organizing an anti-war teach-in, etc. What have you done lately?


Just last night in Compton, a 17 yr old HS student, with no gang affiliation was shot to death while she sat in her car
Did anyone protest? No one did shit
Ppl in the community should be protesting and taking up arms to defend them and their community from gangs
Yet, their fear inables them to do this
^And for this I see those "protests" as ridiculous and unfounded

As someone who grew up about 10 minutes away from Compton in an equally gang-ridden neighborhood I can tell you that sadly that kinda stuff happens on an almost weekly basis. Protesting? How old are you? People have been protesting against violence for DECADES. Guess where its gotten them? NO WHERE. Why? BECAUSE GANG VIOLENCE IS THE RESULT OF SYSTEM POVERTY AND INEQUALITY, until you solve that you will always have gang violence. So the problem is changing the system. There was a very strong advocate for changing the system, a person who wrote about WHY gangs get formed and what society must do to stop them, someone who knew from first hand experience because he once was driven to gang violence by society too. Guess what? HE WAS KILLED AT MIDNIGHT PST YESTERDAY. As far as forming an armed citizenry to stop gangs, #1: people have thought of that before, and guess what? Generally mainstream America, the police and the government dont take too kindly to the thought of armed minorities running their own justice system. #2: What do you hope to accomplish? In the cases where this has been done and succeeded all it does is minimize gangs for a few years before they come back, poverty breeds crime and black market capitalism, a few armed people wont change that. #3: Who determines what in this vigilante system of justice? I hope you know that if you asked the majority of white supremacists who have lynched Black people the majority would say they were "defending their neighborhood from gangs" or some bullshit like that.

[BattleOfTheCowshed]

That doesn't excuse his execution, but it does make us look silly when we argue that innocence and/or redemption are the reasons to spare his life. "Tookie" was murdered by the state as over 1,000 others have been since the Supreme Court brought the death penalty back in 1976. That's bad enough.

If we are opposed to the death penalty, then guilt or innocence is irrelevant. When we fall back on these lesser arguments, we look wishy-washy and leave ourselves open for attack. If we argue innocence and then new evidence comes to light, our argument falls apart. If we argue redemption and then he later returns to bad habits, our argument again falls apart. We should instead take a principled position: the state has no right to kill.

Although I am against the death penalty, for the majority of us against Tookie's execution (at least for me anyway) Tookie was important NOT because he was an emblem of some fight against the death penalty, he was important because he exposed the REAL death penalty in the United States: being born an urban poor minority.


I would also add that the Crips are not a revolutionary or socially progressive force, and the guy that hoped for a gangster uprising against the corrupt system is dangerously naive.

And who exactly said they were? I've been following his case (and the arguments over it in this forum) for a while and I've never heard anyone except you make any kind of reference to the Crips being revolutionary or progressive. I would agree with Correa that they have the capability of doing so, but Tookie never said they were, he himself was a revolutionary force with his exposure of the poverty in the ghetto and the crime it breeds.

[BattleOfTheCowshed]

Yes, they MAY have been petty bourgeois. Or, they could've been immigrants who migrated here and started a small hotel in America, or wished to improve their lives. But please, do not dismiss their death as a non loss and this fucking gangster piece of trash as someone good. And to quote a relatively good movie... " Don't be so quick to deal out death and judgement!"

Who cares if they were "petty bourgeois" or middle class? They were people who weren't worker-exploiting money grubbing CEO's, so their death is a loss. Try not to classigy people so much. They were innocents caught up in gang violence, and I wish everyone would quit apologizing for this gangster murderer!

Well, I'm not sure I completely agree with Correa in that I'm not sure I would advocate immediate death for all bourgouis members, nonetheless, he is right, they WERE bourgeois. And, immigrants? So what? If they started a small hotel with the intention of "improving their lives" via capitalism then they were definitely members of the bourgeoisie. And, who cares if they were middle class? Well for one, the guy in your icon cared A LOT. Also, EVERY MEMBER of the bourgeoisie helps exploit workers even if they are not a CEO and are passive in any explicit class conflict. Let me just say that it makes me fucking sick that anyone who would ever claim to support Che would support a racist, bourgeois "justice" system in a racist, capitalist society. It's also sickening that people who claim to be Communist come on a REVOLUTIONARY website and argue in favor of the American justice system as if it in any way deals justice. You people are completely ignorant of any kind of a Marxist, materialist analysis of society, completely ignorant of the concept of class conflict. Ownthink, you should be glad Che is not alive today, he actually wrote quite a bit on the justice system in his native country where indigenous people were often subject to the same kind of oppresive penal system that blacks face in the US today. If Che had to choose between shooting a proletarian who advocated the destruction of a racist, capitalist bourgeois penal system and who had renounced his previous life as a black-market capitalist OR a pro-bourgeois, American penal-system-supporting non-Marxist, he would....well, I'll leave it up to you to figure out whom he would shoot ;)

[deak]

Ah yes! Lets defend those who start small business! You can convince a worker to take up arms, but you can't convince a capitalist to join us.

Um, last time I checked, people who own their own small corner store in the ghetto ARE fucking workers. Obviously you have never been to one. Asian corner stores are not rich money making cash cows, and you won't see them on the next NYSE report. They barely scrape by just like everyone else, and actually, IF they CAN afford to hire people, they provide much needed jobs within a community that pretty much no one else will even touch (yet talk about moronically from the outside). Or wait, does this mean that there are only one type of worker now? Or maybe if they just aren't the same kind of worker that you are then they don't count. Trust me, I've worked construction and retail, and both are equally hard for different reasons. So please, keep your juvanile labels and stick em up your ass.



Oh..well, if Cuba does it then it MUST be good... rolleyes.gif . First of all the fact that you blindly follow whatever Cuba does it somewhat sickening, and Che Guevara (who you rock in your icon) would be sickened at the thought. More importantly however, this ignores the fact that Cuba and the United States are distinctly different societies in which class dynamics play completely different roles in the justice system, equating them is incredibly stupid.

Wait now I'm confused, in the other forum on the same topic you just said that Cuba was administering "justice" with the death penalty, although to your defence, you did feel that murdering drug users was "a bit harsh." You can't have it both you know.

Look, I'm not trying to personally attack you here (even if i was a bit dickish just now), I'm just actually confused on your position. Also I did write you a lengthy responce on the other thread on the same topic (damn repeat threads) so I won't bother going into anything more in depth here.

*edited due to misspelling and screwed up wording

[Atlas Swallowed]

The justice system in the USA is too corrupt. Too many innocent people have been executed. I do not know if he is guilty or not, a conviction of guilt in a corrupt system should be meaningless. It is unfortunate that he has to go to a racist want to be faschist scumbag Schwarzeneger for clemency. Another death brought to you by the good old USA.

[BattleOfTheCowshed]

Um, last time I checked, people who own their own small corner store in the ghetto ARE fucking workers. Obviously you have never been to one. Asian corner stores are not rich money making cash cows, and you won't see them on the next NYSE report. They barely scrape by just like everyone else, and actually, IF they CAN afford to hire people, they provide much needed jobs within a community that pretty much no one else will even touch (yet talk about moronically from the outside). Or wait, does this mean that there are only one type of worker now? Or maybe if they just aren't the same kind of worker that you are then they don't count. Trust me, I've worked construction and retail, and both are equally hard for different reasons. So please, keep your juvanile labels and stick em up your ass.

These "juvenile labels" are based on decades of analysis of class dynamics in society rooted in historical materialism. Marx defined workers as people who only owned their labor, and not the methods or means of production. If the people own their own store, then they are members of the bourgeoisie. It doesn't really matter if they make no profit at all or if they are the biggest corporation in the world, that just means they may be petit-bourgeoisie instead of top-of-the-heap capitalists. As far as ever being to one (or "talking moronically from the outside") I grew up in a ghetto in South LA and now live in a very poor neighborhood in NYC, so trust me I've been around small liquor/corner stores A LOT (more than I would care to do so, in fact...). First off, these places rarely hire other individuals, and if they do, its usually a very poorly paid highly exploitative job just like any other capitalist enterprise is. Second of all, you act as if these people are welcome members of the community. I don't know where you live, but in LA these are often some of the most hated members of the community. Usually these store owners dont even live in the neighborhood and oftentimes they are HIGHLY racist. If only I had a nickel for everytime I was followed around a store by some owner who suspected I was going to rob something, probably just because I'm a minority (keep in mind I tend to be a very conservatively dressed "nerdy" kinda guy, so I dont look like your average "thug"). These places often economically exploit the poor too as (at least in LA) they are often the main source of crack pipes, needles etc. which they sell to drug addicts. I still dont think Tookie should have killed those people (I supported Tookie for realizing the reality of his past and for what he became, but I still do not fully support indiscriminately killing people), members of the bourgouisie or not, but I wanted to add my 2cents since you seemed to paint a completely different portrait of what these corner stores are like than to what I've experienced.


Wait now I'm confused, in the other forum on the same topic you just said that Cuba was administering "justice" with the death penalty, although to your defence, you did feel that murdering drug users was "a bit harsh." You can't have it both you know.

Look, I'm not trying to personally attack you here (even if i was a bit dickish just now), I'm just actually confused on your position. Also I did write you a lengthy responce on the other thread on the same topic (damn repeat threads) so I won't bother going into anything more in depth here.


I'll respond to you here. #1: I am not supporting the Cuban justice system, I'm not sure why you went off on ME since the quote of me you use in the other thread was of me CRITICIZING someone for blindly supporting Cuba #2: Yes, I definitely feel the Cuban justice system is far more just than the American one, #3: this does not mean I whole-heartedly support the Cuban justice system, especially in regards to the death penalty. #4: Much of my concern over the Cuban justice system lies in the fact that I do not consider Cuba to be fully socialist or egalitarian, and these inequaities could effect society and crime in the same way that poverty and racism do in the United States (obviously to a MUCH lesser extent) #5: In a Socialist society I would consider the use of the death penalty for counter-revolutionaries, those that perpetrate economic exploitation, rapists, murderers, international drug traffickers, etc. Keep in mind I said CONSIDER, I'm not saying I do or do not, its an issue I have questions about (oh and Im referring strictly to a justice system, I completely support revolution, I am NOT a pacifist) #6: I do not support the death penalty AT ALL for drug users or petty criminals in a bourgeois OR socialist society. I hope this clears some confusion up? #7: You can not equate Cuba to the United States AT ALL when discussing the legal system. The racism, class inequality etc. that plays a part in American society and in the legal system here does not exist to as great an extent in Cuba, this does NOT mean I consider Cuba's justice system to be flawless or perfect (as I said above), I'm not sure why its hard to understand that I think the Cuban system is fairer than the American one, BUT DO NOT CONSIDER THE CUBAN SYSTEM TO NECESSARILY BE AN IDEAL. Those are not mutually exclusive concepts! Not to mention there is a far lower motivation to even commit crime in the first place in Cuba...

[bolshevik butcher]

I by and large agree with what Craig says. Guilty or not, I dont think that in a normally functioning state the death penalty should be looked upon as a desirbale form of punishment.

As for the crips, they dont seem mutch better than any other gang, I wouldnt expect them to ever want to change America in any serious way, or to want to fight for the working class as a whole.

[Ownthink]

I never defended the horribly biased and corrupt American "justice" system.

I merely said Tookie was a murderer. Should he have been executed by the State? NO!

By Revolutionary Justice? If proven that he in fact did murder innocents, then YES!

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 10:20 PM
I never defended the horribly biased and corrupt American "justice" system.

I merely said Tookie was a murderer. Should he have been executed by the State? NO!

By Revolutionary Justice? If proven that he in fact did murder innocents, then YES!
I agree with you 100%.

[Correa]

Um, last time I checked, people who own their own small corner store in the ghetto ARE fucking workers.

Are you fucking serious?


Obviously you have never been to one.

I was born in raised in Puerto Rico, murder capital of the Americas (due to narcotics). Maybe 2nd to Columbia if anything. How dare you? :angry:


Asian corner stores are not rich money making cash cows, and you won't see them on the next NYSE report.

True, but what about a their doorbell that goes "nigga" whenever a black or hispanic walks in? ;)


They barely scrape by just like everyone else, and actually, IF they CAN afford to hire people, they provide much needed jobs within a community that pretty much no one else will even touch (yet talk about moronically from the outside).

Bwuahahaha! :lol: I think you are the one that has never been to a hood.

[/QUOTE]Trust me, I've worked construction and retail, and both are equally hard for different reasons. So please, keep your juvanile labels and stick em up your ass.[QUOTE]

I'm 25 how old are you rookie?

[deak]

Ok so here's when shit just gets out of hand. Like I said I started out my post being dickish because frankly both of these threads have made me sick. We've got people justifying the murder of Tookie and then we have people justifying the murder of Asian store clerks or owners. So like I said, I was not trying to do a personal attack. So, if for some reason you wish to know about me so you can feel superior or something, I am 25, I used to live in Cincinnati --edited out personal information because neither of us should have ever gotten into this immature line of attack nor do i want to use my experiences as some sort of badge of street authority--- as well as working for at least 5 years doing carpentry and breaking out basement floors to install water drainage systems (probably one of the hardes jobs next to working in a mine) while I went to school part time as I could afford it. So personal attacks asside, I understand that many shop clerks can be racist, but many patrons can be as well. How many times has someone gone into a Middle Eastern owned carry out and made some shitty comment about terrorism or Osama Bin Laden (made by both black folk and white folk)? Yes, I'll agree the prices in carryouts TEND to be more expensive in the poor parts of town (although convenient stores are more expensive in general because you're paying extra for there location near you and the fact that they don't get things in the same bulk that WalMart does) , HOWEVER the Krogers (big national chain) in downtown and in my neighborhood were just as bad if not worse. Just like I have to wait in line for 20 minutes to bank in NE Portland whereas in SE Portland you get almost imediate service, but I don't yell at the workers there because it's not their fault but the management. The system is fucked, but you can't blame Asian stoer owners for it nor can you assume that they are the problem. IF cities actually invested in their poor neighborhoods and dealt with the REAL causes (not merely the symptoms, which crappy carryouts are a manifestation of this problem not a root), better stores and all your happy national chains would move in gladly. But for now, it is almost necessary for people in poor areas to instead shop at their local only the non-corrperate corner stores that dare to provide people in bad neighboorhoods with any ability to get the things they need, even if they are shittier than shopping in rich areas (and yes some of them are outwardly racist, but shit I see a bunch of racist shit on this forum about Tookie and stuff and I'm gonna kill them). SO let's be blunt shall we, If you think for one second that you can justify killing immigrants who start up a store in poor areas because they can get grants from the government to do so (they don't get grants in rich parts of town) because supposedly they aren't members of the working class you're just a pissed off person who likes to throw around as much violence as everyone else. Furthermore, there are good coner stores with decent Asians, or whatever race, and then there are bad ones as well. To just assume that the people killed in this market or that one without knowing their buisness practices (not that a clerk being a dick warrents their murder anyways) is ludacris (and maybe with maybe a hint of racism towards Asians :o -- being facesious now since we are all throwing the word around). Finnally, I hate to quibble about this anymore, but I don't know about LA or whathave you, but most of the owners of the corner stores in downtown Cincinnati rent their store fronts from shitty as landlords who treat the people that live in the community like dogs. Therefore, what actually does a Corner store grocery person own, ok maybe the food in the store which amounts to pretty much NO monetary value unless people buy it, but other than that, if they fall behind on their rent or paying back bank loans or what have you they will end up with nothing just like everyone else. One last thing, I was chastized for saying that corner stores bring things to communities, well some do, at least in the communities I've lived in or near. One corner store employs community members to watch the door , make sandwiches to clean out in front every so often so that they can have a little cash (granted these aren't high paying gigs, but for some people who cannot get a job at Starbucks at their certain juncture in life, for whatever reason, a random job with no set squedual near where they live can be a blessing, or at least afford them some food or something). Another corner store 2 blocks down holds Raise the Peace Grill Outs once or twice a year and gives free food to the community. Not revolutionary I admit, but it's more than most people in the US, who drive down there only to buy drugs or don't stop at the traffic lights because they are so scared some mean old minority will get them, do. SO, to close, pretty much anyone who wants to justify killing people just because they're pissed that they get followed or because they aren't as cheap as Wal-Mart is just plain someone I don't need to waist anymore time trying to have a conversation with. You're as bad as the waccos on here who are supporting the execution of Tookie, a man who probably oppressed more people in his peak of gang banging than any Asian in any market has ever done. Just as you justify Tookie's actions as being caused by a fucked up capatalistic system, so too is the cause for the problems that exist in corner stores. So go lead a revolution against the people that actually would benefit society if they were gone, not store clerks or fellow community members who happen to be on a different corner or block from you.

**edited to say, sorry that this is kind of confusing, I just realized that I was debating with two different people and yet i kept using the you pronoun at the end. BattleOfTheCowshed I know that you stated that you weren't for the killing of the Asian store clerks, it was someone else who said to the effect of good ridence to them but I can't even remember who has said what anymore.

[FidelCastro]

I disagree with the death penalty because I believe it makes the Government look just as bad as the murderers but Tookie got what he deserved. He represented hate, abuse of the welfare system and only made stereotypes against black people worse. Justice was served, he is no martyr, no hero or victim. HE IS A THUG!

[deak]

and I

Anyway, I oppose the death penalty in all capitalist societies. The death penalty in Cuba is very different because it is presumable used as a tool of justice and not one of oppression. Nonetheless, a death penalty for robbery or drug-dealing or whatever still seems a bit harsh to me. Cuba is still not a completely stateless or classless society and as a society that is continually opposed by the capitalist world at large, it still faces many societal problems such as poverty (nowhere near as bad as in the rest of the world, but still present), occasional economic scarcity, isolation from much of the rest of the world, etc. and these should be taken into greater account when determining the justice system there. Thus I am a bit conflicted, overall I'm down for killing some multinational capitalist drug cartels, but some broke kid on the street trying to hustle cash? I dont think so...

again, how did I misinterpret what you said? You said that in Cuba, their death penalty administers JUSTICE (because it's communist i presume?) and that the death penalty should be used against drug cartel folks. Apparantly taking people and sequestering them from society in a humane living environment and then possibly attempting to educate and help them just isn't enough. Instead we must PUNISH them and KILL them. YAY! Go radical right, I mean left, I mean, what the fuck!

Now do you see why I had a bit of confusion with the two statements which are inherantly conflicting? I'm not grasping at straws here people.

Note: Don't forget, most of these drug lords wouldn't have half of their power if their governments and the US weren't continually protecting and arming them in exchange for bribes, political contributions, and access to greater control of local populations as well as aiding them in the destruction of any groups that begin to form a recolutionary army.

[Correa]

Who said anything about killing Asians? If you read and analyze what I have posted NOT ONCE did I say killing Asians was revolutionary. You need to seriously read through the post and analyze the information better. All that typing to argue against something that was not said or implied. You sound like a liberal more than anything else. Just assuming Cuba is "communist" goes to show that you have much reading to do my friend. No pun intended.

[Tekun]

I assure you that for all of its problems, the American Justice system pales in its racism and oppression in comparison to the American ECONOMIC/SOCIETAL system. Tookie (and the millions upon millions of others just like him) are just products of American capitalism, as long as that exists, people like Tookie will continue to exist. Killing him will do absolutely nothing in the greater scope of "fighting crime".

I realize that, but everyone has an option in life, follow a right (not perfect) path or a wrong path
U are not forced into gangs, u choose to be in gangs
The brother founded the West Side Crips...nuff said, I don't think anyone forced him to initiate the gang
Killing him won't deter crime, but when did I ever say it did?


Oh..well, if Cuba does it then it MUST be good... :rolleyes: . First of all the fact that you blindly follow whatever Cuba does it somewhat sickening, and Che Guevara (who you rock in your icon) would be sickened at the thought. More importantly however, this ignores the fact that Cuba and the United States are distinctly different societies in which class dynamics play completely different roles in the justice system, equating them is incredibly stupid.

When did I say or imply that I "blindly" follow whatever Cuba does?
Sorry bro, but you're jumping to conclusions based on a few words
Usually this action is a defense mechanism, I hope Im not threatening <_<
Im not equating anything, but severe crimes ARE punished in Cuba ( a state that focuses on helping the individual more than anything), the Cuban gov doesn&#39;t tolerate crimes that are severe in nature
If "supposedly" killing 4 ppl isn&#39;t severe than I don&#39;t know what is...


The hell? How does supporting Tookie mean you don&#39;t follow the war or anything about Iraqi civilian deaths? In my mind the two seem to correlate more than anything. For your information I have been one of the organizers and main participants in those save-Tookie campaigns AS WELL as participating in nearly every anti-war protest in my area, participating in counter-recruitment campaigns, organizing an anti-war teach-in, etc. What have you done lately?

If you didn&#39;t follow the reports, many of those opposing his execution were anti-death penalty supporters, Christians, and the religious
The same ppl that go to church and pray to the same God that Bush prays to
And, are they protesting his actions? Nope, they&#39;re single issue voters, determined to impose their religious agenda on the US, quietly ignoring what their state does overseas...
Their beliefs breed a sense of sympathy towards someone who committed a severe crime IMO

"For your infomation?" :rolleyes: U trying to show me up or what??
Thats good brother, keep organizing those protests - anti recruitment....
To me protesting was effective, centuries ago, b4 they invented windows and blinds
Any politicians nowadays can just close their window or blinds, and they can block out whatever your shouting
But I digress
Brother, who are u to judge me? I thought all of us at revleft were united?
Since u cannot stick to the issue......"For your information" :rolleyes:
I tutor kids from my neighborhood and I also due anti-recruitment work at the HS
I work mainly wit my community, the Latino community
Im arming underpriviliged kids with the weapons to clean up our neighborhoods and hopefully improve this miserable world we live in
I believe that if the youth is educated and led wisely, they will use these weapons to fight the battle and change our present situation


As someone who grew up about 10 minutes away from Compton in an equally gang-ridden neighborhood I can tell you that sadly that kinda stuff happens on an almost weekly basis. Protesting? How old are you? People have been protesting against violence for DECADES. Guess where its gotten them? NO WHERE. Why? BECAUSE GANG VIOLENCE IS THE RESULT OF SYSTEM POVERTY AND INEQUALITY, until you solve that you will always have gang violence. So the problem is changing the system. There was a very strong advocate for changing the system, a person who wrote about WHY gangs get formed and what society must do to stop them, someone who knew from first hand experience because he once was driven to gang violence by society too. Guess what? HE WAS KILLED AT MIDNIGHT PST YESTERDAY. As far as forming an armed citizenry to stop gangs, #1: people have thought of that before, and guess what? Generally mainstream America, the police and the government dont take too kindly to the thought of armed minorities running their own justice system. #2: What do you hope to accomplish? In the cases where this has been done and succeeded all it does is minimize gangs for a few years before they come back, poverty breeds crime and black market capitalism, a few armed people wont change that. #3: Who determines what in this vigilante system of justice? I hope you know that if you asked the majority of white supremacists who have lynched Black people the majority would say they were "defending their neighborhood from gangs" or some bullshit like that.

U grew up 10 min away from Compton, cool
I grew up in East Los Angeles, Lincoln Heights
I understand that gang violence happens on a daily basis
I&#39;ve seen it, lived it, and experienced it
But, no one protested, why??
Here was a girl, obviously killed by gang violence
And here was Tookie, once a symbol of gangs, getting mad protests and whatnot
Seems unfair, ridiculous, and hipocritical
Tookie cleaned up his life and at 51 he was writing books that would reach millions
Yet, here was this girl 17, an honor student, who could of changed situation for ppl in her neighborhood
Sad

"How old r u?"
There u go attacking me again, Im 20, I lived in East LA during the early 90&#39;s - I don&#39;t think I have to remind u what gangs warfare was like during the early 90&#39;s
I saw more protests at Tookie&#39;s execution then I&#39;ve seen anywhere in LA, in a good 5 yrs (in regards to gangs)
Tookie did alot of good, Im not debating that, now its up to other ex gang members, to follow up on Tookie&#39;s example
Since he did so much good, everyone is supposed to forget about those 4 lives that he took?
I mean, in a perfect world, that&#39;d be great
But this isn&#39;t a perfect word, your actions bring consequences
The Crips, his homeboys, his financial situation didn&#39;t pull the trigger, he did
An eye for an eye

Although the Black Panthers failed in the long run, they accomplished great things during the time that they were active
They changed their society to a certain degree, now its time for other groups to follow their example, and maybe they can accomplish far more greather things if they avoid the mistakes that the BP&#39;s made
We have to take back our streets, the cops aren&#39;t gonna do it, so its up to us

I see gang members, where Im living, and going to school
I&#39;ve tried talking to them at school or on the street, especially the one&#39;s I know
I&#39;ve tried explaining to them, how they&#39;re caught up in the system, acting ignorant and whatnot
They laugh....and this isn&#39;t just 1 or 2 g&#39;s , this is 7 or 8 of those who I&#39;ve talked to
So, since they won&#39;t learn the peaceful and understanding way, next time they kill a lil boy who&#39;s riding his bicycle or a lil girl who&#39;s watching TV in her livingroom, its time to take up arms and hunt these haters down

They&#39;re slowly killing our neighborhood
The police won&#39;t protect us, so we have to protect ourselves, or else who will

BTW, lay off the personal attacks mah man ;)
Were both in the same struggle, no need to break our unity


Our neighborhoods don&#39;t change bkuz the ppl are afraid to change them
If we&#39;re gonna improve our neighborhoods, its time that we stood up to these fools and told them "we&#39;re not gonna take it no mo"

In all honesty, if Tookie took the life of one of my family members
I, myself, would go out there with a piece and hunt him down
Wouldn&#39;t u?
:ph34r:

[BattleOfTheCowshed]

I realize that, but everyone has an option in life, follow a right (not perfect) path or a wrong path
U are not forced into gangs, u choose to be in gangs
The brother founded the West Side Crips...nuff said, I don&#39;t think anyone forced him to initiate the gang
Killing him won&#39;t deter crime, but when did I ever say it did?

I disagree completely. Economic necessity will always trump any kind of metaphysical concept of free choice in reality. In a situation where one has to choose between being poor and just or being a criminal and rich, the rational choice is crime. It may be wrong, but that is the injustice of the capitalist system, that individuals are forced into situations where real choice is minimized. Of course no one physically forces gang members to be in gangs, they are however economically forced into it. Yes, some individuals are smart enough to not fall prey to this system, but those are the ones who are acting irrationally in light of their economic opportunity.


When did I say or imply that I "blindly" follow whatever Cuba does?
Sorry bro, but you&#39;re jumping to conclusions based on a few words
Usually this action is a defense mechanism, I hope Im not threatening <_<
Im not equating anything, but severe crimes ARE punished in Cuba ( a state that focuses on helping the individual more than anything), the Cuban gov doesn&#39;t tolerate crimes that are severe in nature
If "supposedly" killing 4 ppl isn&#39;t severe than I don&#39;t know what is...

I argued against the death penalty, then you came into the thread and randomly stated that Cuba enforced a death penalty. What was I supposed to gather from that? I assumed either 1. you were arguing that the death penalty is a good thing due to Cuba having it or 2. you had some kind of mental deficiency that cause you to blurt random unrelated things out in a thread? I gave you the benefit and assumed you were attempting to make some rational argument. Also, although I support Cuba if you think that Cuba focuses on individualistic help then you are either severely delusional or know nothing about Cuba, it is a highly collectivized state. Doesn&#39;t mean I don&#39;t support them but that is not the reality of the situation in Cuba. More importantly, I am strongly beginning to doubt whether you and many others are even reading what me, Correa, barista and others are saying. We have never stated that killing four people isn&#39;t severe, we have stated that the death penalty and criminal justice system in America is systematically set to lead America&#39;s poor minorities into a vicious cycle of poverty, crime and oppression. Tookie spoke out against this and offered an acute analysis of how class plays an important part in that, for that I think he should not have been killed. That is not even mentioning the actual trial itself, which was highly flawed, which you and others have not addressed fully either.


If you didn&#39;t follow the reports, many of those opposing his execution were anti-death penalty supporters, Christians, and the religious
The same ppl that go to church and pray to the same God that Bush prays to
And, are they protesting his actions? Nope, they&#39;re single issue voters, determined to impose their religious agenda on the US, quietly ignoring what their state does overseas...
Their beliefs breed a sense of sympathy towards someone who committed a severe crime IMO

Right... although I consider myself an atheist and am generally anti-religious I&#39;m not foolish enough to ignore the fact that religious individuals often lead important struggles. I have met many Christians, Muslims, Pagans etc. in my travels who have been anti-death penalty or anti-war and they are worlds away from being the conservative evangelical Christians who support Bush. For the most part the only "agenda" they wish to impose is one of a liberated Christian theology that believes in compassion, brotherhood, etc. Ever heard of Liberation Theology? Catholic Workers Movement? Quakers? Do they lack a Marxist, materialist analysis of society? Yes, but then again so do you. Would I throw my chips in with them? No, definitely not. But I still recognize that theres a vast gulf there between the two things you are describing and religiousity does not automatically make one an authoritarian reactionary individual.


"For your infomation?" :rolleyes: U trying to show me up or what??
Thats good brother, keep organizing those protests - anti recruitment....
To me protesting was effective, centuries ago, b4 they invented windows and blinds
Any politicians nowadays can just close their window or blinds, and they can block out whatever your shouting
But I digress
Brother, who are u to judge me? I thought all of us at revleft were united?
Since u cannot stick to the issue......"For your information" :rolleyes:
I tutor kids from my neighborhood and I also due anti-recruitment work at the HS
I work mainly wit my community, the Latino community
Im arming underpriviliged kids with the weapons to clean up our neighborhoods and hopefully improve this miserable world we live in
I believe that if the youth is educated and led wisely, they will use these weapons to fight the battle and change our present situation


No. I used "For your information" because you seemed to imply that pro-Tookie protestors were ignoring the war, which is most certainly not the case. First of all, I think you underestimate the power of protest, I believe achieving some goals like stopping the war, etc. are extremely possible via protest. Now, as for revolution and what not, protest serves the extremely important purpose of building solidarity between leftists and in certain cases such as labor struggles, building class consciousness. The Sept. 24th protest in DC was as much for the protests as it was for the administration or government.

No, not everyone at RevLeft is united, there are large differences between anarchists vs. Marxists, Leninsts vs. Maoists vs. libertarians, etc. I "judged you" (or better yet criticized your comments) because I disagreed with them.

We actually have a lot in common, I too am Latino and I too participate in a tutoring program. However I think a big difference between us is that I am not tutoring kids because I believe they can somehow "clean up" the world in the future. As long as poverty and inequality exists gangs, crime, and misery will exist and as long as capitalism exists, poverty and inequality will also. I tutor because education is beneficial no matter what and because if I only can help those kids make substantive differences in their personal lives, then I am fine with that. An education also helps in analyzing ones world which I hope the kids I help will do.


U grew up 10 min away from Compton, cool
I grew up in East Los Angeles, Lincoln Heights
I understand that gang violence happens on a daily basis
I&#39;ve seen it, lived it, and experienced it
But, no one protested, why??
Here was a girl, obviously killed by gang violence
And here was Tookie, once a symbol of gangs, getting mad protests and whatnot
Seems unfair, ridiculous, and hipocritical
Tookie cleaned up his life and at 51 he was writing books that would reach millions
Yet, here was this girl 17, an honor student, who could of changed situation for ppl in her neighborhood
Sad

I&#39;ve been to Lincoln Heights before and I also think I addressed this question before. Trust me, I feel bad for the girl and the millions of other victims of gang warfare, what would a protest in her favor have done? Do you think the Capitalists and architects of society in power would&#39;ve seen the protest and decided to abandon capitalism? Tookie recieve so many protests in favor of him #1 because we had a chance to stop his death beforehand at the hands of the government #2 because he was exposing the systems of poverty that underlie crime, which may not have saved that young girl but which could have led to greater awareness of Capitalism&#39;s methods of operation and could have led to greater social change which could have saved the millions of other youth who stand to die in the future.


"How old r u?"
There u go attacking me again, Im 20, I lived in East LA during the early 90&#39;s - I don&#39;t think I have to remind u what gangs warfare was like during the early 90&#39;s
I saw more protests at Tookie&#39;s execution then I&#39;ve seen anywhere in LA, in a good 5 yrs (in regards to gangs)
Tookie did alot of good, Im not debating that, now its up to other ex gang members, to follow up on Tookie&#39;s example
Since he did so much good, everyone is supposed to forget about those 4 lives that he took?
I mean, in a perfect world, that&#39;d be great
But this isn&#39;t a perfect word, your actions bring consequences
The Crips, his homeboys, his financial situation didn&#39;t pull the trigger, he did
An eye for an eye

Asking age is an attack? I was asking age because it seemed as if you were unaware of the hundreds of anti-gang and anti-crime protests that have come before. Theres a reason people dont protest gangland deaths, because nothing short of a systematic change in society is ever going to stop them. As for Tookie, once again I take it you have not read my previous comments on this subject, if Tookie had not written childrens books or brokered truces or been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize I would still be campaigning for him because he was a victim of an oppressive class system and he was someone who realized that and spoke out against it, thats what I truly valued in this case. Yes your actions bring consequences, but your actions are also highly influenced by your material conditions. As far as an "eye for an eye", it&#39;s interesting that you attack Christianity earlier and then later use a Christian proverb to justify your claims. Someone (maybe you? I dont remember...) also said earlier in one of the Tookie threads something to the effect of "don&#39;t all revolutionaries believe in an eye for an eye" or some such nonsense. Where are you people pulling this from? Such a concept ignores the material reality of capitalist societies and the oppression the working class faces on a daily basis. More importantly it is a morally equating concept; I suppose you think in a class war if the proletariat attacks the bourgeoisie then the bourgeoisie has some "right" to attack back or something? I have a hard time figuring out how anyone who considers themselves a Marxist (as I presume you do from your Che avatar) can use such reactionary phrases that have been used by the bourgeoisie to oppress the proletariat for ages.


Although the Black Panthers failed in the long run, they accomplished great things during the time that they were active
They changed their society to a certain degree, now its time for other groups to follow their example, and maybe they can accomplish far more greather things if they avoid the mistakes that the BP&#39;s made
We have to take back our streets, the cops aren&#39;t gonna do it, so its up to us

Finally we agree on something. I have a hard time seeing how you manage to support the Panthers, who argued that police oppression, racism and poverty where methods of oppression and some of the reasons crime existed, with your viewpoint that ultimately everyone is responsible for their actions free of their material conditions.


I see gang members, where Im living, and going to school
I&#39;ve tried talking to them at school or on the street, especially the one&#39;s I know
I&#39;ve tried explaining to them, how they&#39;re caught up in the system, acting ignorant and whatnot
They laugh....and this isn&#39;t just 1 or 2 g&#39;s , this is 7 or 8 of those who I&#39;ve talked to
So, since they won&#39;t learn the peaceful and understanding way, next time they kill a lil boy who&#39;s riding his bicycle or a lil girl who&#39;s watching TV in her livingroom, its time to take up arms and hunt these haters down

They&#39;re slowly killing our neighborhood
The police won&#39;t protect us, so we have to protect ourselves, or else who will

So they&#39;re caught in a system that perpetuates their violence and poverty, but instead of attacking the system, you target them? I support self-defense from crime 100% but I don&#39;t really see what you&#39;re going to accomplish by attacking a gang other than that maybe that gang goes away for a few years before some other kids form another gang for protection and economic security. Unless you decide to live in a police state. I definitely don&#39;t like gang members, I grew up in a neighborhood infested with them, but I&#39;m also smart enough to know that short of a revolutionary change in the economic structure of society any kind of reform is only temporary and insecure. That is why I am a Marxist :).


BTW, lay off the personal attacks mah man ;)
Were both in the same struggle, no need to break our unity

Our neighborhoods don&#39;t change bkuz the ppl are afraid to change them
If we&#39;re gonna improve our neighborhoods, its time that we stood up to these fools and told them "we&#39;re not gonna take it no mo"

What personal attacks? I criticize because I disagree, not because I want to personally attack you. And I&#39;m not so sure we&#39;re in the same struggle, I don&#39;t think people can just change or that its ultimately a personal decision on how you live your life. Such a belief basically proposes that the reason working-class people turn to explicit crime far more often than the bourgeoisie is because they are "evil" or uneducated in bourgeois arts/sciences (as if math allows someone to escape the physical conditions of their existence) or just bad people, which I disagree with. I strongly believe the material conditions of society effect a person, just like they do for any other living organism. I definitely don&#39;t like gang members, but I also realize that my real enemy is the system that causes them to exist: capitalism.



In all honesty, if Tookie took the life of one of my family members
I, myself, would go out there with a piece and hunt him down
Wouldn&#39;t u?
:ph34r:

One a gut level I would say yes, but on a rational level, I would seek justice via the class war.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 09:55 PM
Blood thirsty Republicans will never grant mercy to someone - they are like vultures swooping around carrion.


The death penalty is barbaric, which means it suits the US Republican Party.
How many Death Row inmates did Grey Davis (D) give clemancy to? He would have killed Stan as well and probably have cited the same reasons:

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...topic=44045&hl= (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=44045&hl=)

The Democrats want to appear "tough on crime" and have often championed things in California like "3-strikes" laws.

[Ownthink]

We&#39;ve got people defending gang murder and people defending State murder.

They both suck.

[Correa]

What?&#33;?&#33; Who is defending gang murder? Please use quotes....

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 02:37 AM
They were petty bourgeois that owned a motel. I won&#39;t miss em&#39;. I&#39;ll miss tookie though.
So, in short, we shouldn&#39;t lose our sleep over the people he supposedly killed, because they were members of the petty bourgeoisie?

Well, if you want anyone to loose their sleep over the judicial killing of this member of the lumpenproletariat, you might consider finding better arguments.

Luís Henrique

[Correa]

That was not an arguement at all. I suggest you take Phil 102 (Critical Thinking). It clearly explains what an arguement is.

[deak]

They were petty bourgeois that owned a motel. I won&#39;t miss em&#39;. I&#39;ll miss tookie though.

oh man....


You sound like a liberal more than anything else

oh no....


That was not an arguement at all. I suggest you take Phil 102 (Critical Thinking). It clearly explains what an arguement is.

oh my...

so this conversation has completely degenerated....

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 02:38 AM
That was not an arguement at all. I suggest you take Phil 102 (Critical Thinking). It clearly explains what an arguement is.
As a matter of fact. I should never have called your ramblings "arguments". There is nothing logical there. You aren&#39;t against the death penalty, and you are not for it. You are for killing those you won&#39;t miss, and against killing those you would.

I stand corrected.

Luís Henrique

[Correa]

Exactly, I&#39;m generally against the death penalty unless they are counter revolutionaries seeking to preserve the capitalist system. Additionally I will not miss any capitalists, but will miss all proletariats.

[Jazzy]

Shwarznegger is nothing but a damned Nazi......