any group for me?

[ernesto]

Dear comrades;
I grew up in a lower working class family in the U.S. and we had only the bare minimum materially and financially. I am still of that status as a 45 year old man as I have worked throughout my life for rich people and helped them become wealthier. I have read about socialism and it always appealed to me--this desire of being equal to others. I have also supported the theories of peace, no oppression of peoples, etc. The only part of all of this that I could never accept is the atheistic part of it as i was raised devoutly Christian and will never change. As a Christian, I have always wished that no person on the earth was oppressed in any way. By the way, the suffering, misery,et al doesn't come from above it comes from Satan. My question is is there any socialist party out there that I would be welcomed into with my belief in Christ?

Ernesto

[Jimmie Higgins]

In the US there is the "catholic worker" org. which is based in Revolution-theology. Either that or you could become a Quaker, thet arn't socialist but they are pasifists and tend to be active in anti-war stuff.

Many disagree with me on this, but I don't think religon is necissarily a barrier to activism or revolution. I do however think it is problematic if you think that the evils of daily life come from Satan rather than from the stuctures of the system itself.

[Orthodox Marxist]

Many disagree with me on this, but I don't think religon is necissarily a barrier to activism or revolution. I do however think it is problematic if you think that the evils of daily life come from Satan rather than from the stuctures of the system itself.


I tend to agree with gravedigger for the most part being religious doesnt mean you cant be an activist or a leftist however it does mean that you cannot be a true communist this takes years and it involves shedding all your preceptions and looking within yourself it also means that you can think for yourself without blind obedience to the church The church and religion is an organization that exists to brainwash the masses into following them they require blind faith and assert their right to run your life they tell you what to think whats right what isnt right what you should wear what you should do what customs you should observe As I have said many times before the church is a parisite that exists to for the sole purpose to manipulate the people into conforming by accepting the church you are saying that the church has the dominant will power and you are thus accepting their dominance over you

As a communist I find this unnaceptable religion is a barrier to the achievment of true communism and to self actualization that is why I can never accept religion

[More Fire for the People]

Welcome. I'm a Christian panentheist. I call myself a "post-materialist Marxist" because I reject materialism but accept class struggle, proletarian dictatorship, and revolutionary socialism.

[Led Zeppelin]

My question is is there any socialist party out there that I would be welcomed into with my belief in Christ?


I sure hope not, but there are probably some pseudo-"Socialist"/"Communist" parties out there who would welcome you, the CPUSA comes to mind.

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by Marxism-[email protected] 10 2005, 05:10 PM

My question is is there any socialist party out there that I would be welcomed into with my belief in Christ?


I sure hope not, but there are probably some pseudo-"Socialist"/"Communist" parties out there who would welcome you, the CPUSA comes to mind.
The ugly Leninist mentality rears its head, "you either obey the party line or your not socialist!".

[Led Zeppelin]

Materialism at its best.

[Faceless]

Diego, your branding of "leninism" based upon this prick's sectarian attacks are immature and certainly show an ignorance of "leninism", whatever that is.

and mr marxism-leninism, if you dont think a person can be a lefty because of their religion then fine, but dont give "materialism" the burden of your sectarianism.

[Tekun]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 06:16 PM
In the US there is the "catholic worker" org. which is based in Revolution-theology. Either that or you could become a Quaker, thet arn't socialist but they are pasifists and tend to be active in anti-war stuff.

Many disagree with me on this, but I don't think religon is necissarily a barrier to activism or revolution. I do however think it is problematic if you think that the evils of daily life come from Satan rather than from the stuctures of the system itself.
Very well said brother :)
I too agree, although I try to live my secular life according to my beliefs
I do not limit/suppress socialism or our revolution by what religious leaders or authorities establish as decrees
As a matter of fact, I rarely attend religous institutions just for this simple fact

Ppl have manipulated religion to suite or justify their imperialistic tendencies, as is the case in the US

[ZeroPain]

The only part of all of this that I could never accept is the atheistic part of it as i was raised devoutly Christian and will never change. As a Christian, I have always wished that no person on the earth was oppressed in any way.

Well most people don't have a problem with religious individuals, only organized religion as a vehicle to oppress the working class.

In any government it is impossible to control what people believe, so a persons personal ideas are to be respected so long as they do not force it on others.

I would recommend that you meet some people from several different groups and see if they will respect your right to think what you want, and from there decide based on ideology. However I don’t think you will find to many pro-religion parties so you will have to recognize that religion has been used for less spiritual reasons in order to oppress people (Talking about all religions).

[viva le revolution]

Well given your religious views and progressive world outlook, i would suggest reading books on liberation theology before jumping into marxism.

[bolshevik butcher]

I personally welcome religous comerades. While religon might stop someone fomr seeing with a dialectical materialist view point, it doesnt stop them from being progressive and fighting for change.

[Floyce White]

Ernesto, I am about the same age and from about the same background.

I don't believe in telling others what to do, so I'm not going to tell you what to think. In my opinion, "communism" is all of the struggle of the poor against the rich. Lots of poor people believe in religion. Lots of poor people believe in luck, and worship at the casino. So what? That has nothing to do with communism, because communism is the action of people, not a belief system.

What I would like to see is all working-class activists in every city getting together to form local study-and-action groups. These groups would not exclude anyone on the basis of belief or on the basis of any other memberships or behaviors, such as belonging to a church or socialist party or being a dope smoker or not advocating gay marriage. They would only exclude landlords, employers, merchants, investors, and other direct exploiters and anti-worker elements such as executives, cops, and fascists.

Ernesto, there is a wide variety of leftist beliefs. In my opinion, they are all variations on liberalism. I don't think they have anything to do with communism. Most people who call themselves "communists" don't agree. That's fine. I hope you'll enjoy the discussions anyway.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

My question is is there any socialist party out there that I would be welcomed into with my belief in Christ?

Yeah, there's a bunch. None worth joining in my opinion, but I'm a communist (which means I'm an atheist).

The CP-USA, SP-USA, I'm pretty sure the SWP, and others allow theists to join..

[romanm]

If you are amerikan and think you are exploited or proletarian then It's Right To Rebel at irtr.org (http://irtr.org) is not the group for you. You can't be religious and be Marxist. I would say that scientific socialism and Maoism isn't for you. Hope to see you at the next anti-war protest though.

[Sabocat]

As a Christian, I have always wished that no person on the earth was oppressed in any way.



So somehow Christianity's requirement of blind obedience to the "word of god" and earthly suffering for a heavenly afterlife isn't oppressive?


Are anyone else's contradiction bells ringing ? :lol:

[bolshevik butcher]

Why are you being so openly hostile to someone who is clearly a potential comerade and shares a progressive outlook?

Grow up seriously, thats blatant immaturaty and dogmatism.

[Sabocat]

Sorry. Anyone blinded by "faith" is no comrade of mine. Its shows lack of critical thought in my opinion.

Personally, I don't give a fuck how dogmatic it sounds.

[bolshevik butcher]

That's just pathetic. When the revolution comes you'll be on the same side of the baricades belief in god or not.

[ZeroPain]

Sorry. Anyone blinded by "faith" is no comrade of mine. Its shows lack of critical thought in my opinion.

Critical thought?

Alienating a group of people who are a potential asset to the revolution seems quite uncritical.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 19 2005, 04:38 PM
That's just pathetic. When the revolution comes you'll be on the same side of the baricades belief in god or not.

history begs to differ. they may be into whats "revolutionary" but they will never be a fellow communist.

ernesto, you will find that a lot of the revolutionary left movement is not very accepting of theists. and as you have state, suffering comes from "the devil", it is obvious why. if you want to be a communist you are going to have to realize that material conditions is whats real not imaginery people who you can blame all bad things on.

[ZeroPain]

ernesto, you will find that a lot of the revolutionary left movement is not very accepting of theists. and as you have state, suffering comes from "the devil", it is obvious why. if you want to be a communist you are going to have to realize that material conditions is whats real not imaginery people who you can blame all bad things on.

But why make an enemy of a *Small* group (Christian Far-Left) that would help aid the revolution when they are of little or no threat post-revolution?

It is doubtful that they will ever change their minds and it is unlikely that they will be popular in a post-revolution environment.

What’s the point in excluding them based on their own (If not misguided) personal faith.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by nate+Dec 20 2005, 04:26 AM--> (nate @ Dec 20 2005, 04:26 AM)
Clenched [email protected] 19 2005, 04:38 PM
That's just pathetic. When the revolution comes you'll be on the same side of the baricades belief in god or not.

history begs to differ. they may be into whats "revolutionary" but they will never be a fellow communist.

ernesto, you will find that a lot of the revolutionary left movement is not very accepting of theists. and as you have state, suffering comes from "the devil", it is obvious why. if you want to be a communist you are going to have to realize that material conditions is whats real not imaginery people who you can blame all bad things on. [/b]
I have no doubt that they will be fellow revolutionary socialists though.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

Just because they might fight along with us during the revolution, doesn't mean we should sympathize with them: they're still blinded fools wanting to oppress everyone with their personal beliefs (well, now I may be generalizing somewhat, but most of them are). Rather than calling them comrades, try to show them their logical fallacy. Maybe then can we call them comrades.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 11:51 AM
My question is is there any socialist party out there that I would be welcomed into with my belief in Christ?

Ernesto
Probably a number of them don't have any rule that you absolutely must be an atheist to be admitted to membership. Maybe the best idea would be to figure out which party you're closest to politically, and then ask them what their policy is on membership for religious believers.

Certainly most left parties are not so dogmatically intolerant as the attitudes expressed here. This board has a certain ultraleft lean to its membership. The tendency to write off all religious believers as "irrational" or incapable of critical thought tends to come from some of the less rational and critical-thinking members of the board.

Every revolution that has ever been made, has been made with the participation of millions of religious believers. People who are serious about making more revolutions, and not just abstract revolutionary-sounding rhetoric, recognize that reality.

Romanm, stop spamming.

[Sabocat]

Just out of curiosity, what were Pope John Paul's views on communism? I think we all know the answer.

There may certainly be a number of Christians (for example) that consider themselves Socialists or Communists, (these people of course are mostly the same that will state "Jesus was a communist") but in reality, the VAST majority, would react to communism in the manner which is dictated to them from the Vatican.

As an example, look at how "the church" views gay marriage/civil unions. Their party line is that it should be rejected as a sin and aberration, thus discriminating against a segment of the population. The reaction from the majority of those that consider themselves "good Christians" or "church-goers" has been to adopt that line.

If you think for a moment that in the event of a revolution that "the church" and the ruling class wouldn't work together to try to condemn it and arm themselves against it, you're kidding yourself. My bet is that when the line is drawn, the devout religious will show their true colors and become our enemy.



The tendency to write off all religious believers as "irrational" or incapable of critical thought tends to come from some of the less rational and critical-thinking members of the board.

:lol:

Coming from you, I consider that a compliment.

[ZeroPain]

There may certainly be a number of Christians (for example) that consider themselves Socialists or Communists, (these people of course are mostly the same that will state "Jesus was a communist") but in reality, the VAST majority, would react to communism in the manner which is dictated to them from the Vatican.

I agree with the stipulations:

1. The religious left should not be excluded.
2. Not all christians are catholic.



We are talking about the members of the religious left, not the current organized religious infrastructure.

[Rex0230]

Sorry. Anyone blinded by "faith" is no comrade of mine. Its shows lack of critical thought in my opinion.

Personally, I don't give a fuck how dogmatic it sounds.

I agree with you at certain level... I really dislike religious ppl, but I don't mind "spiritual but not religious" ppl... I don't have problem with Buddhist or Pagans or Hindus, cuz Christianity (one of my worst enemy) was and is oppressin' them.

And I'm also disgusted with lot of so called marxist... Not here, but other places I visited... Didn't Marx said: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people"? So how can you call yourself a marxsist if you don't respect what the man said? Like a muslim who likes pork... ridiculous!

Just my humble oppinion :)

[F9]

wow men this topic is from 2005!:ohmy::ohmy:

[Rex0230]

wow men this topic is from 2005!:ohmy::ohmy:

Oh shit! I didn't saw that... sorry :lol:

But it is interesting topic tho

[KrazyRabidSheep]

I don't care how old this topic is; it is a timeless political debate.

I never minded Jesus; only his fan club (that is not to say Christians; only the loudest ones such as Pat Robertson and Pope Innocent III.)

I hate when a government takes an official stance for atheism as much as one that takes an official stance on religion.
Religion belongs in a government as much as gravel belongs on a peanutbutter sandwich; you've just got a mess and it is hard to swallow.

That said, don't let die-hard atheists detract you. It is no better then when one religious group attacks another.
What you do on Sundays is your own damn business (and what I do is my business). I am just arguing for a separation of church and state.