A 'Type III human civilisation'

[TheComrade]

Nikolai Kardashev - a Russian astronomer - invented the Kardashev scale, a method of classifying how technologically advanced a civilization is. He states that there are three classes of human exsistance:

Type I - A civilization that is able to harness all of the power available on a single planet.

Type II - A civilization that is able to harness all of the power available from a single star.

Type III - A civilization that is able to harness all of the power available from a single galaxy.

It does go further -

Type IV Colonization of the Local Supercluster. Can escape the universe via creating a black hole.

Type V Colonization of the Visible universe


I find this bizzare. I understand about the Dyson Sphere which gives us the possability of a Type II civ...but...type III. What do you think of this - what do you think of the scale? Is it just fevered dreams of madmen?

[Xvall]

Can escape the universe via creating a black hole.

Wtf? You would be incinerated, stretched out, and DESTROYED. The majority of energy from anything will go directly to feed the black hole. I say the bastard was on drugs. All of these just seem hypothetical anyways. This is outrageous bullshit!

[KC]

Wtf? You would be incinerated, stretched out, and DESTROYED. The majority of energy from anything will go directly to feed the black hole. I say the bastard was on drugs. All of these just seem hypothetical anyways. This is outrageous bullshit!

I think he meant wormhole. Could've got lost in translation.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 06:26 AM
I find this bizzare. I understand about the Dyson Sphere which gives us the possability of a Type II civ...but...type III. What do you think of this - what do you think of the scale? Is it just fevered dreams of madmen?
In 1300 people would have never imagined that we would be able to harness energy by spitting an atom in half 650 years later. Think of the earth 650 years from now (if the cappies haven't destroyed it yet). We will have come a long ways. There will be new things that people nowadays haven't even imagined. You wouldn't be able to believe the technological progress that the world has made. It will truly be unbelievable.

[Zingu]

Wtf? You would be incinerated, stretched out, and DESTROYED. The majority of energy from anything will go directly to feed the black hole. I say the bastard was on drugs. All of these just seem hypothetical anyways. This is outrageous bullshit!

Actually that isn't true, I can't remember I read it, but they've done work that if you were to fly to it at a certain angle you could get in. But of course, no-one will ever know what happens on the outside. Since no information can escape the horizon of the blackhole, and it would appear that you just froze in time due to relativity.

Scientists take this guy's classifications seriously btw.

We're like, .3 type hehe.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I've always taken the Kardashev scale to mean the total aggregate of energy consumed by a civilisation. For example, a civilisation is spread over a few dozen stars, has no dyson spheres, but in total consumes as much energy as a single main sequence star like our sun can provide.


I find this bizzare. I understand about the Dyson Sphere which gives us the possability of a Type II civ...but...type III. What do you think of this - what do you think of the scale? Is it just fevered dreams of madmen?

As I said above, since I consider the Kardashev scale to represent an aggregate of power consumption, it's quite possible to become a Type III civilisation by colonising enough galaxies.

Another way one could do it is by reactivating the sleeping quasar in the centre of the galaxy by feeding it stellar material, and building a hollow sphere around the quasar to provide living space - effectively a Dyson sphere the size of a galaxy with a quasar providing light, heat and energy.

[TheComrade]

As I said above, since I consider the Kardashev scale to represent an aggregate of power consumption, it's quite possible to become a Type III civilisation by colonising enough galaxies.

That may be so but do you not think it obsurd to even talk of such things when we have no hope of even being close to imagining how it could possibly be done. We haven't even built anything on our own moon - let alone on a hugely distant planet. Besides don't you think we should sort out our own planet first (sorry - off topic but thats what I tend to think once I get over the amazing fantasies I have of a Star Wars like galactic republic)

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

That may be so but do you not think it obsurd to even talk of such things when we have no hope of even being close to imagining how it could possibly be done.

Of course not. The Kardashev scale is simply a way of classifying civilisations. Kardashev probably devoted no more resources than a pencil, a sheet of paper and a couple of hours of his spare time.


We haven't even built anything on our own moon - let alone on a hugely distant planet.

Just to nitpick, but we have left a mirror to reflect laser beams on the moon.
Nobody was claiming that the Kardashev scale was a blueprint for the future.


Besides don't you think we should sort out our own planet first (sorry - off topic but thats what I tend to think once I get over the amazing fantasies I have of a Star Wars like galactic republic)

"sorting out or own planet" is fine as a sentiment but all our efforts will be nought if we're wiped out by an asteroid dropping in on us and ruining our shit.
It's best not to have all one's eggs in one basket.

[Che NJ]

No matter how this thread is interpreted, I think this civilization classification is just stupid. The fact that there is a step three, four and five seems way too optimistic to me. if we ever managed to leave our star system, we would not be able to communicate with the home planet without at least a 40 year delay. Communication and coordination of something like space colonization from multiple planets to even more planets is near impossible. and that's if we can even leave the solar system.

I agree with the eggs in more baskets thing, but I think "sorting out the planet" Is way more important right now. You can still protect yourself from asteroids from your own planet.

[Zingu]

Originally posted by Che [email protected] 6 2005, 01:43 PM
No matter how this thread is interpreted, I think this civilization classification is just stupid. The fact that there is a step three, four and five seems way too optimistic to me. if we ever managed to leave our star system, we would not be able to communicate with the home planet without at least a 40 year delay. Communication and coordination of something like space colonization from multiple planets to even more planets is near impossible. and that's if we can even leave the solar system.

So?


Communication took a long time between continents for centuries in Human Civilization. Till now, with the internet, radio waves and satillites.


Who says we can't find a way for inter-solar or even inter-galatical communication?

[KC]

Pockets of light shot through worm holes would probably do it.

[TheComrade]

"sorting out or own planet" is fine as a sentiment but all our efforts will be nought if we're wiped out by an asteroid dropping in on us and ruining our shit.
It's best not to have all one's eggs in one basket.

But why does space travel help protect this planet? Depending on the size of the asteroid - nukes will probably do the trick and if it is still too big well then we should accept our fate or at least try and get some people into huge bunkers.



Kardashev probably devoted no more resources than a pencil, a sheet of paper and a couple of hours of his spare time.

I'd imagine it took him a little longer than a few hours - it might seem quite simple but then so does trigonometry but that certainly took more than 'a few hours' to develop. I mean I am not saying people shouldn't look and be interested in stuff like this - I'm just pointing out that it is irrelevant to all but those that fantasise about such things as a ring world, star ladder or dyson sphere...


Who says we can't find a way for inter-solar or even inter-galatical communication?

Your right but there are certain things that we now know (or at least we THINK we know) to be impossible, for example travelling at the speed of light and without that it would take a lifetime to travel from one end of the galaxy to another - thereby rendering an inter-galactic colony impossible.

Another point but not really about the topic - how do you think us humans would react to another civilisation that maybe was Type 2/3/beyond?

[KC]

Your right but there are certain things that we now know (or at least we THINK we know) to be impossible, for example travelling at the speed of light and without that it would take a lifetime to travel from one end of the galaxy to another - thereby rendering an inter-galactic colony impossible.

Actually, there are several theories on how to get around this. One would be wormholes. The most probable theory in my opinion, though, is having a spaceship open up a "bubble" of space-time around itself. In this way, it can travel faster than the speed of light, as it isn't really moving.

[Dark Exodus]

But why does space travel help protect this planet?

Because when/if an asteroid hits us or our sun goes supernova we won't become extinct.
It does not protect our planet (though the technologies gained probably will) it protects us.

[BuyOurEverything]

No matter how this thread is interpreted, I think this civilization classification is just stupid. The fact that there is a step three, four and five seems way too optimistic to me.

That's ridiculous. We shouldn't have classifications for technology that we don't currently have? I guess we should just collectively eliminate the concept of faster than light travel from our collective consiousness because it's too far in the future...

Anyways, I could be wrong but my understanding was that this was sort of a guide for communicating with extraterrestrial civilzations. We can detect energy use, so we know roughly how large a civilization is, etc, etc.

[Che NJ]

Communication took a long time between continents for centuries in Human Civilization. Till now, with the internet, radio waves and satillites.
I'm just saying we could have colonizers from different planets planning to colonize more planets, they would probably run into each other all the time or show up at a planet already colonized after spending multiple generations on some spaceship. If they were going to master the galaxy they would need a game plan for every star before we left and assume everything would go ok on every one. radio waves and satellites are relatively simple, but if you imagine that in the future anything is possible, you're probably going to be disappointed


Actually, there are several theories on how to get around this. One would be wormholes.

we don't even know if a wormhole will bring you to another part of our universe or another universe entirely. even if it did, how do you control where it goes. And how do you create one. Our typical vision of the future is usually our situation today with all of the problems solved. Let me point out that dreams can be unrealistic.


Because when/if an asteroid hits us or our sun goes supernova we won't become extinct.
It does not protect our planet (though the technologies gained probably will) it protects us.

first, our sun isn't big enough to "go supernova."
and you're right, spreading out won't save our planet, the point is we will have more people to start over than we would if we were all standing on it when it was hit by something.



That's ridiculous. We shouldn't have classifications for technology that we don't currently have? I guess we should just collectively eliminate the concept of faster than light travel from our collective consiousness because it's too far in the future.

I personally think this thing is stupid. I agree with whoever proposed the "on drugs" theory. And as far as I'm concerned, FTL travel is impossible. I'm not saying give up on physics, but I am saying start considering more realistic options than ones that don't exist yet.

EDIT: Sorry about the quotes

[KC]

we don't even know if a wormhole will bring you to another part of our universe or another universe entirely. even if it did, how do you control where it goes. And how do you create one. Our typical vision of the future is usually our situation today with all of the problems solved. Let me point out that dreams can be unrealistic.

1. Read into wormholes.
2. See my other example for faster-than-light-travel.

[Che NJ]

2. See my other example for faster-than-light-travel.


The most probable theory in my opinion, though, is having a spaceship open up a "bubble" of space-time around itself. In this way, it can travel faster than the speed of light, as it isn't really moving.

Stopping time from your perspective and moving with it would require you to be in a black hole and somehow be able to move it. Time would still be ticking away on every other planet either way.

[KC]

http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/gmis9805.htm

[Che NJ]

Ok, star trek science, I get it now.


Suppose you wanted to send the American Space Shuttle to the nearest stars. Suppose that you had a pretty good artificial hibernation process for humans, and you were happy for the journey to take 1,000 years. Well, the fuel needed to get it there in that relatively long period of 1,000 years would be much greater than all of the mass of the Universe - in fact, over 10,000 million million million million million million million million million million times greater than all the mass in the entire known Universe!
as told by "Dr." Karl.


The Voyagers will take about 40,000 years to come close to another star
As told by wiki-pedia.
How can something that is maybe double the size of voyager and traveling 40 times as fast need "10,000...million" universes to reach the next star when the voyagers are heading to the same place under the principles of "old science" using an unmeasurable fraction of the universe's energy.

[KC]

How can something that is maybe double the size of voyager and traveling 40 times as fast need "10,000...million" universes to reach the next star when the voyagers are heading to the same place under the principles of "old science" using an unmeasurable fraction of the universe's energy.


1,000 years

40,000 years

[BuyOurEverything]

I personally think this thing is stupid. I agree with whoever proposed the "on drugs" theory. And as far as I'm concerned, FTL travel is impossible. I'm not saying give up on physics, but I am saying start considering more realistic options than ones that don't exist yet.

That's not really my point. I'm saying that it is ridiculous to dismiss the very existance of classifications or concepts of things just because we can't currently acheive them. Plus, if I understand correctly, which I may not, these classifications were more geared towards extraterrestrial civilizations rather than our own.

[Xvall]

Actually that isn't true, I can't remember I read it, but they've done work that if you were to fly to it at a certain angle you could get in. But of course, no-one will ever know what happens on the outside. Since no information can escape the horizon of the blackhole, and it would appear that you just froze in time due to relativity.

When something falls into a black hole, usually about 10% of the mc2 energy gets radiated away as the material approaches the black hole. The other 90% gets absorbed into the blackhole and simply adds to its mass. The problem is not "getting in" but that upon "getting out" most of you would be gone and used as fuel for the black hole.

[Morpheus]

Nikolai Kardashev was a leader in the USSR's Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence. When studying CTA-102 he thought he might have detected signals from an extraterrestrial civilization, although it was later shown that this was probably due to natural causes. His classification scheme was invented as part of his work looking for aliens, not as speculation about the future. He reasoned that since the universe has been around for billions of years and humans are only 100,000 years old there's a good chance that any alien civilization we find will have come around before us, possibly millions or billions of years. What would a billion year old civilization look like? These type I,II & III classification look rediculous from the vantage point of a young species, but it's not unreasonable to think that aliens whov'e been around for millions or billions of years might have worked their way somewhere up that level.