Nelson Mandela

[ReD_ReBeL]

I love Nelson Mandela and think he done wonders for the black people of south africa which where very oppressed under British rule, also i am currently reading his autobiography A Long Walk To Freedom, what are all you folks think of him?

[ReD_ReBeL]

under british and apartheid rule i mean***

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 06:21 AM
I love Nelson Mandela and think he done wonders for the black people of south africa which where very oppressed under British rule, also i am currently reading his autobiography A Long Walk To Freedom, what are all you folks think of him?
I agree with you on your opinion of him. I have never read the book you are currently reading, but I am reading The Wretched of the Earth by Frantz Fanon which is somewhat related, as it has to do wiht colonialism and African independence.


I also believe that Marcos(of the EZLN) had supported him, in his famous quote where he said Marcos is black in South Africa, Gay in San Francisco etc.


Also on this subject, I do believe that Steve Biko was a great man in his struggle against apartheid in South Africa.

[ReD_ReBeL]

lol i may be dumb but whos Steve Biko?, how great is this in 2003 Mandela said that 'the united states is a threat to world peace'
yes, thts speech by Marcos is really nice, and i do like the EZLN, but i read sumwhere not sure if it is true but Marcos supports ETA, who r responsible for bombing attacks on civillians

[WUOrevolt]

Steve Biko was born in King William’s Town, South Africa. He was the third child in an average family where his father was a clerk and his mother was a maid. Biko was not offered the opportunity to know his father because he died when Biko was only four years old. Steve Biko excelled in school as a youth but his political activities caused him to be expelled from Lovedale High School. Biko was still able to continue on to college where he received a scholarship to attend St. Francis College in Natal, a liberal Catholic boarding school. While in Medical School, Biko became involved in the NUSAS (National Union Of South African Students), a multiracial politically moderate organization.

It was while he was in Natal that Biko began truly questioning the apartheid system and the conditions that his people were forced to endure. Biko became more involved in the daily struggle that faced Blacks, and he decided to quit medical school.

In 1968, Steve Biko became the cofounder and first president of the all-Black South African Students’ Organization (SASO) The primary aim of the organization was to raise black consciousness in South Africa through lectures and community activities. Biko concluded that the apartheid system had a psychological effect on the Black population, which had caused Blacks to internalize and believe Whites’ racist stereotypes. According to Biko, Blacks had been convinced that they were inferior to Whites, which resulted in the hopelessness that was prevalent in the Black community. Biko preached Black solidarity to “break the chains of oppression”.

Biko’s political activities eventually drew the attention of the South African government resulting in him being banned in 1973. The banning restricted Biko from talking to more than one person a time in an attempt to suppress the rising political movement. The banning did not stop Biko’s commitment to activism. For the next four years, he continued to spread his message at gatherings and with his underground publication called "Frank Talk". During this period Biko was often harassed, arrested, and detained by the South African Police.

On August 18, 1977, Biko was seized by the police and detained under section 6 of the Terrorism Act. This draconian law had resulted in the loss of freedom of over 40,000 Blacks in South Africa since 1950. The law permitted the police to hold Biko in jail indefinitely, however the end of his term was due to his violent death, not freedom. Biko was held in prison for twenty-four days were he was interrogated, starved, and brutally beaten. It wasn’t until Biko was laying unconscious, that the doctors suggested that he be transported to Pretoria for medical treatment, 740 miles away. On September 12, 1977, Biko became the forty-first person in South Africa to die while being held in the custody of the South African Police.

The South African government claimed that Steve Biko’s death was caused by a hunger strike and claimed their innocence. The then Minister of Police, Jimmy Kruger, was quoted as saying crassly: "Biko's death leaves me cold". However, the official autopsy concluded that Biko’s death was due to brain lesion caused by the “application of force to the head”. The officers who were responsible for Biko while he was detained were absolved of any wrong doing by a South African court.

Biko’s tragic death had a great impact on the people of South Africa and stunned the world. His funeral was attended by more than 15,000 mourners, not including the thousands that were turned away by the police. Steve Biko’s legacy lives on through the struggle he helped to ignite and through the freedoms that South Africans now possess.


http://zar.co.za/biko.htm


Marcos does not support the ETA, that came up in a letter he wrote to someone(a rival) about his secret identity, and which the mood of the letter was extremely sarcastic, and he jokingly referred to the ETA, without really taking a clear position on it.

[ReD_ReBeL]

cool Biko seems a cool guy, and yea sorry i guess Marcos doesnt support the ETA, i wish more leftist guerilla groups would be more like the EZLN instead of carrying out shit loads of bombings recklessy

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 06:46 AM
cool Biko seems a cool guy, and yea sorry i guess Marcos doesnt support the ETA, i wish more leftist guerilla groups would be more like the EZLN instead of carrying out shit loads of bombings recklessy
That is so true, I truly think the EZLN is a model all revolutionaries should follow.

[LA GUERRA OLVIDADA]

I've read that book.. Good book.

I like how he explained how as he was a younger man he was more ignorant and rejected more leftist ideals but as he matured in thinking he became more leftist and less capitalist.

[Atlas Swallowed]

Anyone who dedicates thier life to fighting oppression and racism has my respect and love.

[Hiero]

Mandela isn't less capitalist. There is still capitalism in South Africa, i don't think he had a plan to overthrow aparthiad and continue the class war to socialism. Also the remenants of aparthiad still exist in South Africa as many Black people are still waiting for their land back and are caught up in a beureucratic system

[kingbee]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 02:27 AM

I agree with you on your opinion of him. I have never read the book you are currently reading, but I am reading The Wretched of the Earth by Frantz Fanon which is somewhat related, as it has to do wiht colonialism and African independence.


fanon is brilliant. i read a bit of his work (black skins, white masks; wretched of the earth) a few years back. it's just a pity that i haven't got time to reread them now.

re:mandela, i don't know why anyone would be against him. he was a figurehead for african resistance for 27 years.

[SanPatricio'sSoul]

Originally posted by leftistmarleyist+Dec 3 2005, 02:27 AM--> (leftistmarleyist @ Dec 3 2005, 02:27 AM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 06:21 AM
I love Nelson Mandela and think he done wonders for the black people of south africa which where very oppressed under British rule, also i am currently reading his autobiography A Long Walk To Freedom, what are all you folks think of him?
I agree with you on your opinion of him. I have never read the book you are currently reading, but I am reading The Wretched of the Earth by Frantz Fanon which is somewhat related, as it has to do wiht colonialism and African independence.


I also believe that Marcos(of the EZLN) had supported him, in his famous quote where he said Marcos is black in South Africa, Gay in San Francisco etc.


Also on this subject, I do believe that Steve Biko was a great man in his struggle against apartheid in South Africa. [/b]
I read The Wretched of the Earth, it is an incredible work. I also am a huge fan of Mandela and the EZLN.

[Xiao Banfa]

Mandela isn't less capitalist. There is still capitalism in South Africa, i don't think he had a plan to overthrow aparthiad and continue the class war to socialism. Also the remenants of aparthiad still exist in South Africa as many Black people are still waiting for their land back and are caught up in a beureucratic system

Hiero it seems that no progress is better than less than total revolution to you. The fact that South Africa is liberated from apartheid is a huge victory to all progressives in this planet.

Apartheid South Africa used to be a cancerous sore on the African continent, backing their Mao-Allied proxies to fight the communist MPLA.
Thankfully Nelson Mandela and the ANC closed this dark chapter of history.

[Hiero]

Hiero it seems that no progress is better than less than total revolution to you. The fact that South Africa is liberated from apartheid is a huge victory to all progressives in this planet.

I was making positive criticism. It is no good to parade around while more work needs to be done, and in South Africa alot of work needs to be done, that is what i was pointing out.

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 07:22 PM

Hiero it seems that no progress is better than less than total revolution to you. The fact that South Africa is liberated from apartheid is a huge victory to all progressives in this planet.

I was making positive criticism. It is no good to parade around while more work needs to be done, and in South Africa alot of work needs to be done, that is what i was pointing out.
True, but the end of apartheid was a huge victory for South Africa and the world.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by leftistmarleyist+Dec 3 2005, 01:16 AM--> (leftistmarleyist @ Dec 3 2005, 01:16 AM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 06:46 AM
cool Biko seems a cool guy, and yea sorry i guess Marcos doesnt support the ETA, i wish more leftist guerilla groups would be more like the EZLN instead of carrying out shit loads of bombings recklessy
That is so true, I truly think the EZLN is a model all revolutionaries should follow. [/b]
if that were the case then no one would be fighting revolutions. ;)

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by nate+Dec 9 2005, 06:42 AM--> (nate @ Dec 9 2005, 06:42 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 01:16 AM

[email protected] 3 2005, 06:46 AM
cool Biko seems a cool guy, and yea sorry i guess Marcos doesnt support the ETA, i wish more leftist guerilla groups would be more like the EZLN instead of carrying out shit loads of bombings recklessy
That is so true, I truly think the EZLN is a model all revolutionaries should follow.
if that were the case then no one would be fighting revolutions. ;) [/b]
Do you mean if all leftist groups followed the model of the EZLN then there would be no people fighting revolutions?

It isn't very clear what you are saying here, to me at least.

[UltraLeftGerry]

Well there was a flight of some white middle and upper class types out of SA, it seems to me that this whole dismantling of apartheid was a smooth affair designed to diffuse a more revolutionary situation that could have occured if apartheid had stayed in place. I'm willing to bet the vast majority of blacks who vote ANC are far, far to the left of how the actual ANC operates. I've been told that the gap between the rich and the poor has expanded since the end of apartheid. That does not justify apartheid, but it shows that the SA bourgeoisie is enriching itself. Had they enriched themselves through neo-liberalism and retained apartheid, you would have a very real revolutionary situation. Mandela is just a figure head, to show that "Look blacks, you've really made it!" The SA black proletariat is unfortunately still living off of the euphoria that the end of apartheid created. The end of apartheid was once step, there must be another. Thabo Mbeki and his clique are nothing more than a black bourgeoisie.

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 04:56 AM
Thabo Mbeki and his clique are nothing more than a black bourgeoisie.
Which is a shame, Mbeki's father was a very influential member of the South African Communist Party. I do, however, think that Nelson Mandela is one of the most universally respectable individuals in history. Regardless of your political ideology (unless you're a Neo-Nazi), you have to appreciate what the guy has done and what he has been through in his lifetime.

[WUOrevolt]

I just thought this was a good qoute by him:

"Communists have always played an active role in the fight by colonial countries for their freedom, because the short-term objects of Communism would always correspond with the long-term objects of freedom movements. "

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by leftistmarleyist+Dec 8 2005, 11:21 PM--> (leftistmarleyist @ Dec 8 2005, 11:21 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 06:42 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 01:16 AM

[email protected] 3 2005, 06:46 AM
cool Biko seems a cool guy, and yea sorry i guess Marcos doesnt support the ETA, i wish more leftist guerilla groups would be more like the EZLN instead of carrying out shit loads of bombings recklessy
That is so true, I truly think the EZLN is a model all revolutionaries should follow.
if that were the case then no one would be fighting revolutions. ;)
Do you mean if all leftist groups followed the model of the EZLN then there would be no people fighting revolutions?

It isn't very clear what you are saying here, to me at least. [/b]
this belongs in another thread so if the debate progresses lets take it somehwere else. what i was saying is that the ezln is not wageing revolution anymore. if every group was like the ezln, no one would be violently resisting the state anymore.

[unite2fight1984]

South Africa is a more complicated issue than most other African nations but they have made great strides and most of the work can be attributed to Mandela. In fact, South Africa is about to legalize gay marriage making them more progressive than the US and many "western" countries.

[Guerrilla22]

Mandela wasn't a socialist or communinst or what have you, but he fought against a racist system and ultimately helped to end it, so I applaud him for that as well as Desmond Tutu.