choose your side very carefully

[ChiTown Lady]

I am new here, but to the censors of this site – in case you happen to be anti-Christian – Che was IN FACT Christian, as he referred to Karl Marx as St. Karl in one of his writings. He would NEVER have deemed Karl a Saint, if he were not in FACT Christian by faith…….. therefore, the following, which are my personal rantings on the topic of The US, Bush, and Iraq etc. have merit in this forum – specifically.

I only posted the above – just in case the moderators of this site are anti-Christian docterine – specifically (I don't know the veiw here on that point) - however, all that is posted below is strictly in keeping with what I believe Che would think about this situation, and more importanly - this is my personal veiw of things, as they stand.


It is obvious to me that this is not about Iraq’ s “Weapons of Mass Destruction”, rather, this is about Capitalist Corporate interests abroad. Global Capitalist Interest and oppression to that variety of monetary end has dominated the globe from this hub (the US), for as long as this country has been in existence. The United Fruit Company is a perfect example of this practice, and many of our clothing and auto industry manufacturers are fine example in this century in both Latin America and Asia, not that the United Fruit Company has loosened their grip on Latin America specifically.

What I find interesting is this point: Mr. George W., who we MUST all know by now is a complete idiot, refer to this link which documents proof of this fact: http://dumbpresident.com/ The other thing that I found interesting is the fashion in which his State of the Union address was written. As I listened to it I had a definite problem, with not only the “real” content, but also with the underlying theme. His speech was written (I’m sure not by him), but it used biblical language throughout the entire speech, where he would replace what “The Bible” would refer to as God with “the United States”, as if the United States IS God. THIS Specifically IS blasphemy, as well as “Putting False God’s Before Him” – Commandment #1, if you are either a Jew or a Christen!!!

And let’s touch on the issue of “weapons of mass destruction” for a moment, if we may. The ONLY country Globally, to have ever USED “weapons of mass destruction” to any “real” degree, was the United States. The two incidences that stand out in the forefront of my mind are the nuclear bombing of the city of Hiroshima, Japan - For which children STILL today are being born with birth defects and other serious medical problems as a result. And the second most horrible occurrence of this such practice was in the case of the laboratory manufactured chemical known as “Agent Orange” that was sprayed all over the North Vietnamese peasants in the United States “quest” to silence Communism on the planet. This chemical, not only caused the young men spraying it to incur serious health problems and birth defects to occur in “their” children, but it is STILL TODAY is causing heath problems and birth defects to occur in the children of the North Vietnamese people.

Cuba has been put under a UN embargo for some 50 years now, instigated by the United States, while the United States STILL today has strong-armed it’s way into maintaining an official US Army Base in Guantanamo Bay. Cuba – on their land, and without the permission or approval of the Cuban government – which quite specifically has wanted all US influences and control to be “OUT of there” for some 50 years now. The Iraqi nation has enjoyed a similar UN embargo some 20 years now. It’s no wonder their economies are performing poorly, nobody is ALLOWED to trade with either of these nations. They would undoubtedly become impoverished under these circumstances. The entire scenario here is nothing but a sick game of Totalitarian/Capitalist power and greed, plain and simple.

Many of the young men and women who are members of the armed forces here in the US today have also been bribed into joining the US armed forces with the promise of being “Granted” a government paid college education in return for their time served. The deal is that if you serve 6 years with “us”, we will pay for your education. A sweet deal, for those who do not otherwise have the means to be educated in higher learning. This is the position these young men and women have now been put in. They are now liable to even Kill for this privilege of this “all coveted” higher education. I read an article the other day where some of these guys were being interviewed. I am not in a position to directly quote the text of the article at the moment, but I can give you the gist. The first guy was asked to tell how he felt about being sent to fight in Iraq, and he replied that he must do it because it is his “duty” but that the first thing he would be doing upon return to the US is to go to the church to confess all that he did or was involved in doing over there. The second guy that comes to mind was asked what he would do if a 10-year old kid were to jump out in front of him with a weapon to kill him, and he replied that he did not know what his reaction to a particular circumstance would be until and unless he were to find himself faced with it. This is a travesty in itself, for this type of power and control to have been put on our own people, in this respect and to the ultimate end of the ultimate Capitalist power mongers.

Europe – I shall make a brief comment about the thinking that is being perpetrated throughout this country regarding Europe specifically. France and Germany are the “Old” Europe, while a host of ex-East Block nations are NOW the “New” Europe? Helloooooooo? What’s that noise all about? Let’s examine that for a moment, if we may. France and Germany have both been there – done that, in both WW’s, and they know what time of day it is on this note. Listen to their wisdom – por favor (please). These so-called “New” European nations have all been promised sizable financial aid packages by the United States government, thus have been bought. They are selling their souls to the demon, in my eyes – specifically.

This so-called “war” that is being proposed and also perpetrated by the government of my current citizenship is NOT a “war”, but rather a proposed “massacre” of a people for the sake of the monetary Capitalistic gain of the few who purport to control the masses. This is the beast – Unbridled Capitalism, specifically – AKA – The New World Order!!!

The peasants who populate the city of Baghdad are extremely frightened at the moment, I’m sure – as are the young people that the government of this God/Ala forsaken nation has pressured and manipulated into committing mass murder and destruction in the name of “the United States/God” AKA the Ultimate Capitalist Interests - These young people are as equally as frightened about this whole scenario as well, I’m also very sure about that point. There is absolutely no question on my mind of the level of Terrorist Threat there and also here. The difference is that this threat is inevitable there and at this point ONLY speculatory here. What will be will be, God Save Our Souls.

Armageddon will be upon us no matter what: So It Is Written. The question is – What side will you be on? That of the Lord’s teachings or that of the Demon’s quest for “the” ultimate mortal power over humanity?

This is the real issue now, isn’t it?

I say NO to any manner of death and destruction proposed against any people, for any reason whatsoever. But what will be will be - no matter what, So It Is Written - choose your side very carefully.


(Edited by ChiTown Lady at 4:10 am on Feb. 13, 2003)

[peaccenicked]

There is very little censorship on this site and that tends towards extremely offensive material. If you believe that Che was a christian that is not in the least bit offensive to me and I am militantly atheistic. Indeed it is interesting to hear something new about Che even if it is probably wrong.

The following artice is one of the best of the short write ups on Che.

''Love and Hate in the Time of Che



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


by

Stew Albert

Che Guevara is my last hero. He was what Errol Flynn only pretended to be in "Robin Hood" and a couple of pirate movies. Che was a self-confessed "soldier of fortune" but he was not a mercenary. Guevara's adventurous and courageous ways were rooted in his idealism and utopian visions of a just and classless society. And he died young in the year of 1967 just before the Pentagon Demonstration where his blown up photograph was displayed by thousands of demonstrators as we laid siege to the war makers and their evil building. Che died young and without a hint of compromising corruption or dishonesty. And yes he was handsome and could turn a literary phrase. He was perfect.

After all these years and so much death, despair and sleazy selling out, a pure Che still lives on in our collective imagination. Highly publicized biographies are coming out and look for a Mick Jagger produced feature film - of course you certainly will want a Che Guevara wrist watch. Yup the Commandante may be on his way to becoming a bonafide millennial commodity. Perhaps there may be some good news in this if a few few people come to consider the meaning of his true life and actual ideas.

And this brings me to a personal sore point. If you've been around the block a couple of times you are probably familiar with this Guevara quote. "At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love." This is the most reproduced quote and it was something he penned in an essay on morality and art. But if these sentences are left alone, and so many "Christ-like" poster representations of Che, combined with the love quote do exactly that, it creates a misleading impression, since it makes him sound like a simple hippie or maybe a Jesus freak.

Che certainly believed in the transformative power of love but I'm sure he never hummed "love is all you need." Consider this quote from another essay written about the same time: "A people without hatred cannot vanquish a brutal enemy," or how about this golden oldie: "the oppressor must be killed mercilessly...the revolutionary must become an efficient and selective killing machine." Tough love wouldn't you say?

Che Guevara believed in selective love and hatred, not abstract philanthropy. He belonged to an era when revolutionaries really did commit themselves to loving the oppressed and hating their oppressor. And many like Che put their ideas in to practice and wound up being buried in unmarked graves in very obscure surroundings. It was the CIA and their allies who proved to be the more effective, if unselective "killing machine." Guevara's revolutionism was daring and dangerous. And it shouldn't be turned into sentimental pap and wind up someday as am image promoting Nike. It's definitely difficult these days to garner much support for "revolutionary hatred," with only right wing militia maniacs using and mocking the concept, but Che lived in a time when the game was played for real, and he was its high mountain of heroism. Let's leave him that way.''



From http://members.aol.com/stewa/che.html

Ortherwise your criticism of The war party is one of the best I have read thank you.

[redstar2000]

Well, Chitown Lady, you may rest easy in the assurance that the moderators on this board, to the best of my knowledge, are "neutral" on the question of "Christianity."

I'm quite sure that if Che ever referred to Karl Marx as "St. Karl" (he would have said "St. Carlos" actually), he was joking.

A few points:

Cuba is not under a United Nations embargo, only under a U.S. embargo. Cuba trades freely with many countries in the world today, including both Canada and Mexico. It's also thought that thousands of American citizens "break" the embargo every year by traveling to Cuba as tourists...though that number may decline sharply if, under the provisions of the "Patriot Act", travel to Cuba is declared to be "an act in support of terrorism." (Yes, they can do that now.)

There's nothing historically unusual about a national "leader" calling in "God" to "justify" the "leader's" imperial ambitions. Mussolini did it. Hitler did it. George W. Bush is just the latest to do it. One thing about "God" is that "He" is always available and evidently willing to be used for pretty much any purpose. The times when "God" would directly smite the evil-doer seem to have gone forever. :cheesy:

Confession of sin and petition for forgiveness may save the American mercenary from "eternal damnation"...it won't help much when he's in front of an International War Crimes Tribunal...where he belongs.

The people who live in Baghdad are not, for the most part, "peasants". They are urbanized people--city-dwellers--as much as you or I. After the war, of course, it quite likely will be otherwise...if they are still alive at all.

The word "Armageddon" as a symbol of a "final conflict" is interesting. It's derived from a place-name (in the north of Palestine, if I'm not mistaken) where a huge battle was fought between the Hittite Empire and the Egyptian Empire c.1300BCE. Although both sides claimed victory, as far as historians can tell, it was inconclusive. Only in the eyes of "Old Testament" writers, many centuries later, was it transformed from an indecisive battlefield into a "decisive" future battlefield.

I can't wait to see what a "demon" really looks like.

:cool:

[CheViveToday]

Ignore this post, read next one....

(Edited by CheViveToday at 3:55 pm on Feb. 13, 2003)

[CheViveToday]

I do remember reading that Che sometimes referred to Marx as St. Karl. However, something that stands out in my mind much more, is reading that Che WAS AN ATHEIST. Whether you choose to accept it or not, he WAS and ATHEIST. It's a common known fact. Read any of his bios, or even his own letters.

[pay feo 2003]

[quote]Quote: from redstar2000 on 3:13 pm on Feb. 13, 2003
Well, Chitown Lady,

I'm quite sure that if Che ever referred to Karl Marx as "St. Karl" (he would have said "St. Carlos" actually), he was joking.


lol. like when he quoted to a female reporter "I'm not religious, I'm communists."

hey, i grew up in christian-catholic based churches for most of my teen-life, never once did they mention Che. why? because the churches await "REVIVAL" not 'REVOLUTION" geez...Jesus was hanging out with tax collectors, jewish coucils, bad women...etc. and he was all about the same thing Che stood for which was a fight against capitalism because its unfair and unjust!

as far as saying Che was the picture of perfection, ah, maybe what he felt inside all on his own was close to "perfect" the man himself was not.





(Edited by pay feo 2003 at 10:18 pm on Feb. 13, 2003)

[pay feo 2003]

anyway, chitown, i enjoyed reading your post, ignore the fact that it got me excited. its has DEBATE written all over it. wish i had the time. thanks for sharing.

myself, i choose indestructable life. (could care less what you call it)

[ChiTown Lady]

I will now reply to you all individually, if I may:

In reply to peaccenicked:

If you want to be Atheist that’s fine my be, and that was a very nice article that you posted, however:

Yo boy Stew Altert states: “of course you certainly will want a Che Guevara wrist watch.”

Sorry but, not I – I would not “buy” into such a Capitalist ploy – thank you very much!!! Che Guevara wrist watches indeed!!! I do actually have a tee-shirt, and maybe that amounts to the same thing in the end – but somehow the idea of wrist watches just reminded me for a moment there of the ever coveted Mickey Mouse wrist watches – and I had a twinge of sickness over that particular idea. Personal thing on my part there – I think.

But thanks for your closing statement about my rantings. We can all see eye to eye about some points anyway. ;)


In reply to redstar2000:

I assure you that Che in fact referred to Karl and St. Karl – NOT St. Carlos. If Che meant to honor Karl – he meant to honor Karl as Karl – specifically, as he stated in the script that I read. And he was not joking – I’m too tired and it is too late at the moment, BUT I promise you this – I will look it up and quote what he said directly – later, for you benefit. ;) There was also a very moving poem about Christ that he carried in his backpack until his death. I will also quote that here – later, for your benefit. I promise you that.

Alright – Cuba is NOT under a UN embargo, but only a US embargo. But what does that amount to for them? They are still today driving 1940’s and 1950’s automobiles – who is selling them new technology and/or upgraded vehicles to tool around the island in? Nobody!!! UN – US What’s the fuckin’ different there on that point???

You can’t wait to see what the demon looks like? The demon look like unbridles Capitalism – Totalitarian control over the masses – here and there Corporately!!! That is WHAT the DEMON looks like!!!! Open your eyes and you will see.


In reply to CheViveToday:

I have read many writings of Che’s and many accounts of his life, and I personally do NOT remember ever reading anywhere that he was in fact an Atheist – however if he was, so be it. I am not personally an Atheist, and I believe that I hold most of not all of his beliefs in other categories that Che held – AND I am not afraid to spout off about what I think – specifically. I will only speak the truth – as I know it, as did he. Word!!!


In reply to pay feo:

Dude – you hit a particular nerve, specifically. “Jesus was hanging out with tax collectors, jewish coucils, bad women”.

Bad women!!! Let’s examine this for a moment is we may – please. What constitutes a “Bad” woman??? And what is the difference between a Bad Boy and a Bad Girl – specifically??? In the eyes of society- the Bad Boy is commended and even giving what amounts to as “high fives” for being such an individual – while a Bad Girl is ridiculed and called names for the same behavior. What? – Specifically is that all about??? I really want to know that point. Please enlighten me on that shit – if you can in an intelligent way that doesn’t sum up lame.

Sorry – I had to do it – nothing personal. ;)

And of course Che was not perfect – nor was Jesus, and nor am I (by a long shot – I specifically am not perfect!!!, and neither are any of you) – we ALL have one thing in common – we are all human.

And yeah – I know for a fact that my post had debate written all over it – but that is what I love for. So it’s cool.. I’m up for it. ;) :)

*** end of my replies

Thanks for talkin’ at me on this – I was in a chatty mood just now is why I decided to reply specifically too all. But still – the Totalitarian-Imperialistic tone is out there – and I’m sure you can all see that for what it is – with or without the God or Religious aspect being thrown in.


(Edited by ChiTown Lady at 4:13 am on Feb. 16, 2003)

[TheEndOfMan]

ChiTown Lady i commend you for your comments... Personally I believe that none of us should be arguing about religion... That is how the majority of wars/arguements are started!! Hell who cares if Che was a chrisstian or not.... I'm atheist... But i will not think any different of Che whether he was Christian or not.... As far as i'm concerned he was just HUMAN.... Like all of us... I mean sure religion plays a part in creating our attitudes and values... But when it comes down to it we all bleed red... Che was a wonderful revoltuionary.... I seriously don't think he would want us to be arguing over stupid matters such as his religious preference... Come on ppl... We all (for the most part anyway) do not support this war... Infact any sane person couldnt support such an inhumane thing.... So lets just concerntrate on stopping it.... NO WAR IN IRAQ! PEACE TO MOTHER EARTH!

[redstar2000]

ChiTown Lady, when I was in Cuba, Marx was always referred to as "Carlos Marx" and Engels was referred to as "Frederico Engels". Che was not, to my knowledge, fluent in English (or German), so, if he ever said such a thing, he almost certainly would have said "San Carlos" and he could not possibly have meant such a statement to be taken seriously.

Mao, I've heard, used to make a similar joke towards the end of his life...about his imminent departure for that "classless society in the sky." :cheesy:

Yes, there are still many 1950s model cars on the streets of Havana, but there are also later models. Russian cars from the 1960s and 1970s are seen as well as Japanese cars from the 1980s and 1990s.

Personal automobiles could be imported into Cuba if the Cuban Government wished to spend its scarce hard currency on such things...they have other priorities. Recently, for example, they used a loophole in the U.S. embargo to purchase American foodstuffs for hard currency...to replace the food crops destroyed in last fall's two hurricanes.

They do import many modern consumer durables from Europe and other places...things like refrigerators, air conditioners, etc. But the largest drain on the Cuban economy is their dependence on crude oil (they have their own refineries...but no oil or coal or natural gas deposits). A modern economy must have reliable electricity...and the Cuban Government sensibly makes that its first priority.

Thus, the end of the U.S. embargo would probably make little difference to the Cuban economy unless American capitalists were permitted to take over large chunks of that economy again. When American corporations owned sugar plantations in Cuba, the sugar entered the U.S. duty-free and even qualified for "price-support" purchases by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. "Socialist" sugar would today be hit with high duties...making it unlikely to be imported into the U.S. in significant amounts. Tobacco products and possibly coffee would be the only Cuban products imported into the U.S. and, as "luxury" goods, probably not in huge amounts.

The one thing Cuba would really gain from the end of the embargo is American tourists in substantial numbers with plenty of hard currency to spend. What effect this would have on Cuban socialism is difficult to predict...but I'm not optimistic.

I'm disappointed that "demons" look like Ken Lay, Jack Welch, or Bill Gates. I was hoping for something a little more "spectacular." :cheesy:

:cool:

[Doshka]

haha redstar rest assured demons in my mind always look like you :P
i dont know why ive waited till now to write...i printed out your origional post chitown and iver been reading it a lot...although i agree that we should never argue about relegion i am an atheist...i dont really care either way to me Che is god...he is perfect, maybe this is wrong but i look up to him like i would a god..he is not human, he is better than that.
i love your describtion of the war...really great...and i agree with most of your views though the stuff about god went through one ear and came out the other :P

[TheEndOfMan]

Good attitude Doshka.... If only everyone on this site just ignored stuff that they took persoanlly offencive... Like religion beliefs... Anyway.... I don't think Che is god because god to me is just a fictious symbol of hope that ppl created to make themselves feel safe and secure... And sure it can be a good thing... It's just i like to look at life realistically.... We are flesh and blood and no one gives a shit if we live or die... Anyway Che was an amazing revolutionary.... Everyone on this site would have to agree (Che-Lives... well u would have to be pretty stupid to come on here if u didnt)... PEACE.