God or Marx

[DisIllusion]

I have been an unbaptized "Christian" for about 3 or 4 years now, before I read the Communist Manifesto, before I read or learned anything about Marx or Lenin. My question is, what should I do now? I have learned enough about Marx to know that there is no place for religion in a Marxist society, and whenever I talk about my religious beliefs in the Political ID thread in the Politics forum, I catch a lot of flak about it. My question is, is there any way that Marxism and Christianity can co-exist together? And if not, what should I do?

[Arca]

I do not believe Communism and religion can co-exist, there are numerous threads (a sticky?) to explain why.

I would advise to fuck religion, but of course it's entirely up to you. You're going to get conflicting views here, that goes without saying, so ultimately you need to make your own decision about what to do with the dead weight of christianity you're carrying around.

[Ownthink]

Yeah, Fuck Religion. Honestly, burn your Bible, if you have one. Religion sucks ass.

[DisIllusion]

Thank you comrade Arca, I thought about it some more and talked about it with some Christian friends and realized that I'm not even sure if Jesus really was resurrected. I know that he was a real person who died for a good cause but i'm not sure if there was any higher power behind it.

So I am now officially not sure.

Atheism(---|-------)Christianity
me

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 08:16 PM
I know that he was a real person who died for a good cause but i'm not sure if there was any higher power behind it.

So I am now officially not sure.

Atheism(---|-------)Christianity
me
what good cause? how do you know what jesus really said? everything written in the bible was written 40 years after his death, and for all we know could be FLAT OUT LIES.

belief in a god is reactionary, plain and simple.

i suggest you become non religious since there is no scientific evidence of god!
you cannot be a communist and be religious, communists rely on material evidence to make decisons, those who have "faith" do not.

what are you afraid of? just do it! no god is going to "strike you down" or else all of us atheists would be dead already.

[DisIllusion]

Originally posted by nate+Dec 1 2005, 06:52 PM--> (nate @ Dec 1 2005, 06:52 PM)
[email protected] 1 2005, 08:16 PM
I know that he was a real person who died for a good cause but i'm not sure if there was any higher power behind it.

So I am now officially not sure.

Atheism(---|-------)Christianity
me
what good cause? how do you know what jesus really said? everything written in the bible was written 40 years after his death, and for all we know could be FLAT OUT LIES.

belief in a god is reactionary, plain and simple.

i suggest you become non religious since there is no scientific evidence of god!
you cannot be a communist and be religious, communists rely on material evidence to make decisons, those who have "faith" do not.

what are you afraid of? just do it! no god is going to "strike you down" or else all of us atheists would be dead already. [/b]
I understand that belief in a higher being is somewhat of a crutch. It's comforting to me and other weak minded people that there is something watching over you and something going on after this life.

Maybe i'm still too weak-minded to let go right now, but at least I can see the chains that shackle my mind.

[Arca]

I think of it like this.

The bible has too many holes, contradictions, and flat out crap to be taken seriously. I think you know this, it has been pointed out often enough. You could fit the good stuff (out of 67 books, or around that number) into a small pamphlet. And most of that is common sense.

This means the bible, the 'holy' book of christianity, is crap, and that leaves nothing. Christianity is based on that book. This doesn't leave much to believe in...


Originally posted by DisIllusion
, but at least I can see the chains that shackle my mind.
We're offering you a hacksaw :D

[bcbm]

Forget these hacks, stick with religion. At least then if its right you have a chance of seeing your utopian vision come true, which is more than can be said for us dirty commies. :lol:

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 11:33 PM

I understand that belief in a higher being is somewhat of a crutch. It's comforting to me and other weak minded people that there is something watching over you and something going on after this life.

Maybe i'm still too weak-minded to let go right now, but at least I can see the chains that shackle my mind.
ask yourself what this "afterlife" is going to be like if god lets little incedents like the holocaust, hr. katrina, fascism, etc come about. sounds like a sick person to me. you are going to have to ask yourself whether you believe in whats really HERE or whats supposedly (no evidence) "up there".

[Hopes_Guevara]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 03:33 AM
I understand that belief in a higher being is somewhat of a crutch. It's comforting to me and other weak minded people that there is something watching over you and something going on after this life.

Maybe i'm still too weak-minded to let go right now, but at least I can see the chains that shackle my mind.
I understand the contradictions happening inside your own. It's not completely easy for human to give up their belief. Serriously, a true Marxist never believes anything without material evidences, hence he/she never believes in God. As Marx said, religion are just like opium of human. And I think you were right to say that religion is just for the weak minded people, including unlucky people who have lost their belief in and hope on present life and so, they expect and desire for better things coming up them after this life. But I think religion won't been wiped out right now. Once people feel weaker than nature and misery, unfortune and poverty follow up us religion will remain existing. Religion cannot be destroyed, it can just wither away when the material bases for existence of itself disappear. So, the question is you must realize that yourself no need religion longer but isn't because Marx denied it.

But, I think nowadays to a certain extent, a man can be still Marxist and religious. I believe that with a logic and lucid brain of a Marxist, he will be gradually from less to no religious longer.

[Publius]

Though I myself am an atheist, I think this is one of the 'theories' major flaws. Most people are too religious to ever support Marxian socialism, or even socialism in general.

I don't think it's something that can be fixed.

It's, fundamentally, an intelligence problem, a logic problem. Most people are too stupid or too insecure to stop believing in a deity.

Avoid it if you choose, but you're not going to convert many Christians to atheism, no matter what you do.

People are not logical. People will accept any sort of drug to protect them from reality.

And what I think further dooms your efforts, is if capitalism does 'turn bad' and fail, people are going to become MORE not less religious.

If this world falls apart, they'll choose to look towards the next one.

They won't abandon their dreams.

[DisIllusion]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 09:55 AM
Though I myself am an atheist, I think this is one of the 'theories' major flaws. Most people are too religious to ever support Marxian socialism, or even socialism in general.

I don't think it's something that can be fixed.

It's, fundamentally, an intelligence problem, a logic problem. Most people are too stupid or too insecure to stop believing in a deity.

Avoid it if you choose, but you're not going to convert many Christians to atheism, no matter what you do.

People are not logical. People will accept any sort of drug to protect them from reality.

And what I think further dooms your efforts, is if capitalism does 'turn bad' and fail, people are going to become MORE not less religious.

If this world falls apart, they'll choose to look towards the next one.

They won't abandon their dreams.
Religion is an emotional crutch. It's for weakminded people who want the idea of somebody protecting them or something happening in the next life. You bring up some interesting points, such as people will turn more to religion as capitalism fails. Though people may be weak-minded enough to have a belief in religion, they aren't necessarily stupid, and will look for alternatives in the economic system. After all, the Bible never said to only follow capitalism blindly, just itself.

[Martyr]

What made you turn away frome Religion? Whatever I read I will never turn from my beliefs but I'am saying what caused you.

[DisIllusion]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 06:46 PM
What made you turn away frome Religion? Whatever I read I will never turn from my beliefs but I'am saying what caused you.
Well, I started reading a lot of Marx and Luxembourg and Goldman. This got me thinking about how religion will only work as long as the people are afraid and unwilling to think for themselves. To quote Emma Goldman, "How cruel the black monster of religion is! God is everything, man is nothing, God says." How can we be expected to worship a God who wants us to think that he is so much better than us but is still said to "love" us.

Religion is somewhat of a crutch, as i've stated above. It is for people who like the thought of something watching over them and something happening after this life. If you are truly strong minded and ready, you will be ready to go it alone.

But ultimately, the choice is still up to you. I'm just trying to convert you to agnosticism, since I believe a somewhat Christian Marxist is still possible, after all, I was one for a few months. You just won't be able to totally associate with most of Marx's works and thoughts as he meant his readers to. Still, you will get the main idea, just not the more deeper details.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

I think that a person can start out somewhat religious when they first become leftist, but they will have to choose "one or the other" at some point, because religions tend to be extremely counterrevolutionary and to force their members to be counterrevolutionaries.

[STI]

It's comforting to me and other weak minded people that there is something watching over you and something going on after this life.


Think about this:

If there's no afterlife, no re-incarnation, no nothing, then this life is all you have. You therefore owe it to yourself to make as much of what you have now without being bogged down by the commandments, moralities, and irrationalities of what some guy (who I'm pretty sure you'll conclude doesn't exist) wants you to do.


It's, fundamentally, an intelligence problem, a logic problem. Most people are too stupid or too insecure to stop believing in a deity.

About 85% of Europe, outside of Ireland and Poland, is non-religious.

What was that number like 200 years ago?

Or even 50?

Progress is being made.


And what I think further dooms your efforts, is if capitalism does 'turn bad' and fail, people are going to become MORE not less religious.

That's not what happened in Spain in 1936. They didn't "become more religious", they summariliy executed priests!

Why wouldn't that happen again?


But ultimately, the choice is still up to you. I'm just trying to convert you to agnosticism, since I believe a somewhat Christian Marxist is still possible, after all, I was one for a few months. You just won't be able to totally associate with most of Marx's works and thoughts as he meant his readers to. Still, you will get the main idea, just not the more deeper details.

Unfortunately, that isn't ture. At its very core, Marxism is a materialist theory. This is one of its most basic elements, and is diametrically opposed to any belief in the supernatural.

You can't be a "Christian Marxist" because it's impossible to believe in Christ and still be a Marxist.

[DisIllusion]

Originally posted by The wise old [email protected] 5 2005, 08:37 PM
I think that a person can start out somewhat religious when they first become leftist, but they will have to choose "one or the other" at some point, because religions tend to be extremely counterrevolutionary and to force their members to be counterrevolutionaries.
That's basically what happened to me. And I chose Marxism.

[Jesus Christ!]

I think that it's easy for people to say " fuck religion" when it playes not part in their lives but if thats how you were raised and thats what you beleive it's kinda hard to just drop it all. Personally I'm extremely atheist and would love to go along with the "fuck religion" sentiment but I know thats stupid advice that doesn't help anything. There is also such a thing as being a good person and being christian as opposed to most people's beliefs there are some out there.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 05:55 PM
Though I myself am an atheist, I think this is one of the 'theories' major flaws. Most people are too religious to ever support Marxian socialism, or even socialism in general.

I don't think it's something that can be fixed.
It is being fixed as we speak. When the material conditions for religion disappear then so shall it.

Lets take a case study:

Up to 30 (in some places less than 20) years ago in Ireland the Church ran the country. Forget your local TD or sergeant, it was the parish priest that people listened to. For decades the Church decided what was permitted and what was unacceptable. Condoms and any blasphemous material (including the Life of Brian) were banned. And people supported this. We were a god fearing country.

But throw in an economic boom and see what happens. Today mass attendances are at an all time low. Atheism is rife, the seminaries are empty, shops open on a Sunday, scandals have rocked the clergy and no one gives any notice to the priesthood. People have woken up because they have no need of superstitions in their life.

[STI]

I think that it's easy for people to say " fuck religion" when it playes not part in their lives but if thats how you were raised and thats what you beleive it's kinda hard to just drop it all. Personally I'm extremely atheist and would love to go along with the "fuck religion" sentiment but I know thats stupid advice that doesn't help anything. There is also such a thing as being a good person and being christian as opposed to most people's beliefs there are some out there.

I was raised Baptist. My dad is a deacon and teaches an adult Sunday School class. My mom runs "Jr. Church", and I've done stuff in kids' programs at church.

Fuck Religion.

It's sure as hell not easy. It's scary! But it wasn't "polite discussion" that convinced me to drop the foolery and go atheist. It was seeing religious arguments completely demolished publicly.

Not to say that everybody will respond to this, but conflict against religion definately does work for some people.b

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

What made you turn away frome Religion? Whatever I read I will never turn from my beliefs but I'am saying what caused you.

Religion never really made any sense to me, I sort of just went along with the motions.

By the time I was 7 I knew it was bullshit. None of it made any sense. Even as a child I could find giant holes in it that no one could explain.

"That's just the way it is" didn't work with me because I was raised to ask question and seek the truth. If only my parents had "practiced what they preached"! :lol:

[Noah]

When I was 12, I was VERY religious, I prayed everyday.

One day my friend said 'Do you believe in God' and I thought about it. Looked at her and said 'No, Fuck God, the bastard' just to look cool. You should have seen her face she was Christian at that time and as I said it, I felt something punch me in the stomach, it was fear, a psychological thing.

From that day on I realised, there's no such thing as God. We are just like any other creature, we live, survive, reproduce and die.

I know it's not easy to break away from religion, when you're in a religious environment but once you do it my friend you will recognise the burden you have been carrying on your back and the metaphorical chains that restrained that extra freedom will have gone. And it felt good.

The other reason I am athiest is because religion has brought nothing but mass death, conflict and is baseless, therefore one must have 'faith'. Well my religion is gnostic and 6000 years old but the stuff is very out dated (based on science and astrology) but still...

Noah

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 10:15 PM
But ultimately, the choice is still up to you. I'm just trying to convert you to agnosticism, since I believe a somewhat Christian Marxist is still possible, after all, I was one for a few months. You just won't be able to totally associate with most of Marx's works and thoughts as he meant his readers to. Still, you will get the main idea, just not the more deeper details.
I agree; you cannot really be a Marxist Christian but you can certainly phase through. Obviously materialism is not compatible with superstition; though you can still apply the logic tangentially and use conflict theory. As anyone does so, I suspect their “faith” with shrink, like an irradiated tumor.
Speaking of agnosticism, I have a thread debating agnosticism (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=38361), if you are interested.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 01:15 AM
Yeah, Fuck Religion. Honestly, burn your Bible, if you have one. Religion sucks ass.
This must be the worst most unconstructive post... ever.

[Gidoot]

religion is good. All religions on this planet tell u the same thing, love all living creatures. Jezus, Mohammed, budda ect ect where socialists! b.t.w. You are responsible for your own beliefs! I believe in god and Jezus in my own way! I don't listen to the church.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Gidoot, I agree and disagree with you. Religions do create moral codes, but not all how you have highlighted, there is prejudice taught also. If you take your own religion then good, it may be possible in this case, albeit by obscure means, to reconcile your belief and Marxism.

However I can not think of one church that is compatible with Marxist thought.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 06:15 PM
religion is good. All religions on this planet tell u the same thing, love all living creatures. Jezus, Mohammed, budda ect ect where socialists! b.t.w. You are responsible for your own beliefs! I believe in god and Jezus in my own way! I don't listen to the church.
Read some real history.

None of what you posted corresponds in any way with known historical fact. :o

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Gidoot]

Read some real history.

None of what you posted corresponds in any way with known historical fact. :o

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Sorry I'm a teacher secondary school and I teach history! And yeah Stalin said that he was a communist but he was not! So a lot of people think they do things in the name of god but thats NOT true!! I believe in God and Jezus, but in my own way. Next to that i'm by all means very left! I'm left and I always will be!

[visceroid]

Originally posted by ComradeOm+Dec 7 2005, 10:27 AM--> (ComradeOm @ Dec 7 2005, 10:27 AM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 05:55 PM
Though I myself am an atheist, I think this is one of the 'theories' major flaws. Most people are too religious to ever support Marxian socialism, or even socialism in general.

I don't think it's something that can be fixed.
It is being fixed as we speak. When the material conditions for religion disappear then so shall it.

Lets take a case study:

Up to 30 (in some places less than 20) years ago in Ireland the Church ran the country. Forget your local TD or sergeant, it was the parish priest that people listened to. For decades the Church decided what was permitted and what was unacceptable. Condoms and any blasphemous material (including the Life of Brian) were banned. And people supported this. We were a god fearing country.

But throw in an economic boom and see what happens. Today mass attendances are at an all time low. Atheism is rife, the seminaries are empty, shops open on a Sunday, scandals have rocked the clergy and no one gives any notice to the priesthood. People have woken up because they have no need of superstitions in their life. [/b]
i think that publius already covered that, with the other quote

"And what I think further dooms your efforts, is if capitalism does 'turn bad' and fail, people are going to become MORE not less religious."


if a boom makes people less religious, if capitalism turned bad, there is a good chance they will turn more religious.



i know it sounds defeatist of me, but i agree with publius.


i think the biggest barrier to the revolution, when the time is right, will be religion. we must do as much as possible in the present to eliminate the influence of religion now, so when the time is right, people will more likely turn to revolution than religion.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Gidoot
Sorry I'm a teacher secondary school and I teach history!

Poor kids! :o

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 04:46 PM
LPoor kids! :o

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif
LMAO :lol:

Seriously though gidoot, if you are sceptical of the history of what has passed for "religion" where do you draw your own from? What are you influences? Do you follow any texts, or articular teachings? Or are you completely original?

[Publius]

About 85% of Europe, outside of Ireland and Poland, is non-religious.

Defined how?

I would dearly like to see these numbers.

How many are 'superstitious' or 'spiritual' or 'mysitical' or Deists or whatever?

I'd need to know exactly how it was phrased.



What was that number like 200 years ago?

Or even 50?

Progress is being made.

Not really.

I don't think Europe is at all close to a proletarian revolution or whatever, or really even moving towards it.

I suspect that it is moving towards an economic crisis though.

If/when their economies fail, watch as people flock back to church. Also note how they don't revolt.

Guess which class has more religious people. Guess which has more atheists.



That's not what happened in Spain in 1936. They didn't "become more religious", they summariliy executed priests!

Why wouldn't that happen again?

And yet I believe Spain is one of the more religious countries in Europe, is it not?

[Publius]

It is being fixed as we speak. When the material conditions for religion disappear then so shall it.

What 'material conditions'?

Stupidity? Ignorance? Insecurity? Groupthink?

While you're busy fixing those problems, why don't you make me a sandwich.

Start with the sandwich though; I'm hungry now.




Lets take a case study:

Up to 30 (in some places less than 20) years ago in Ireland the Church ran the country. Forget your local TD or sergeant, it was the parish priest that people listened to. For decades the Church decided what was permitted and what was unacceptable. Condoms and any blasphemous material (including the Life of Brian) were banned. And people supported this. We were a god fearing country.


And of course the opposite appears to be happening in America.



But throw in an economic boom and see what happens. Today mass attendances are at an all time low. Atheism is rife, the seminaries are empty, shops open on a Sunday, scandals have rocked the clergy and no one gives any notice to the priesthood. People have woken up because they have no need of superstitions in their life.

And as they get richer they see they have no need for revolution.

I don't really know the validity of your claims. Being from America, my perception is skewed, but I think you're seriously underestimating the amount of religion.

Toss in 'spirituals', 'mystics', 'doubtfuls', 'agnostics', 'deists' and other hokey half-steppers and see where the numbers lie.

Enter an economic/political/social crisis and see what people flock to.

They don't rush to the library to worship logic and read Principia Mathamatica; they go to chruch, read the Bible and pray.

It's unavoidable.

[Gidoot]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Dec 20 2005, 04:46 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Dec 20 2005, 04:46 PM)
Gidoot
Sorry I'm a teacher secondary school and I teach history!



http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif [/b]

Poor kids! :o

Ask my kids!

I belief in my own beliefs! Nobody can change that!

Matthew 19:21
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven

32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.
33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all.
34 There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales
35 and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

[OkaCrisis]

Today mass attendances are at an all time low. Atheism is rife, the seminaries are empty, shops open on a Sunday, scandals have rocked the clergy and no one gives any notice to the priesthood. People have woken up because they have no need of superstitions in their life.

Although you are right about Church attendances being at an all-time low, studies have shown that exactly as many people today express a 'belief in god' as 20 years ago (around 85%).


I was always anti-organised-religion, but thought that there might be a God, so my beliefs might have been defined as Agnostic.

However, I now believe (like many, I assume) that god and religion are nothing more than Capitalist constructs used to control and pacify the people. I don't believe that anyone has the right to judge me but me, and I refuse to live a 'life devoted to god' in misery and complacency, only in exchange for any kind of paradise/reincarnation later.

I will live now as best I can and love every minute of my 'sinful' 'blasphemous' life.

"FUCK YOUR GOD" - Maynard James Keenan

[OkaCrisis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 01:50 PM

Read some real history.

None of what you posted corresponds in any way with known historical fact. :o

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Sorry I'm a teacher secondary school and I teach history! And yeah Stalin said that he was a communist but he was not! So a lot of people think they do things in the name of god but thats NOT true!! I believe in God and Jezus, but in my own way. Next to that i'm by all means very left! I'm left and I always will be!
Oh yeah, and I refuse to believe that you're ANY sort of secondary school teacher. Your spelling and grammar are atrocious, and you have no strong arguments in favour of religiousness, you just quote the Bible and assume that it speaks for itself.

Anyone who taught ANYTHING in a school would know that texts are to be interpreted, not taken at face value. So, you might then recognise that in opposition to so many atheists, quotes from the Bible are not going to be taken as anything more than mere propaganda.

You would do well to do more research, stop letting the Bible "speak for itself", and develop some serious arguments in favour of religion instead of just posting Bible quotes that will only fall on 'deaf eyes'.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by Gidoot+Dec 25 2005, 12:15 PM--> (Gidoot @ Dec 25 2005, 12:15 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 04:46 PM

Gidoot
Sorry I'm a teacher secondary school and I teach history!



http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

Poor kids! :o

Ask my kids!

I belief in my own beliefs! Nobody can change that!

Matthew 19:21
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven

32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.
33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all.
34 There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales
35 and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need. [/b]
dont even try to use your bullshit bible versus. there are hundreds of verses that FAR outweight the one you provided in being reactionary garbage.

another thing, jesus was not a communist! communism IS NOT CHARITY. in jesus's perfect world (if this bastard even said any of the shit in the bible) there can still be enormously wealthy people, just as long as they give the poor a few scraps to live. as a communist i have this to say, FUCK THAT SHIT.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by OkaCrisis+Dec 25 2005, 12:44 PM--> (OkaCrisis @ Dec 25 2005, 12:44 PM)
[email protected] 18 2005, 01:50 PM

Read some real history.

None of what you posted corresponds in any way with known historical fact. :o

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Sorry I'm a teacher secondary school and I teach history! And yeah Stalin said that he was a communist but he was not! So a lot of people think they do things in the name of god but thats NOT true!! I believe in God and Jezus, but in my own way. Next to that i'm by all means very left! I'm left and I always will be!
Oh yeah, and I refuse to believe that you're ANY sort of secondary school teacher. Your spelling and grammar are atrocious, and you have no strong arguments in favour of religiousness, you just quote the Bible and assume that it speaks for itself.

Anyone who taught ANYTHING in a school would know that texts are to be interpreted, not taken at face value. So, you might then recognise that in opposition to so many atheists, quotes from the Bible are not going to be taken as anything more than mere propaganda.

You would do well to do more research, stop letting the Bible "speak for itself", and develop some serious arguments in favour of religion instead of just posting Bible quotes that will only fall on 'deaf eyes'. [/b]
You would be surprised. I have some teachers worse than this guy/girl.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Gidoot+--> (Gidoot)Ask my kids![/b]

To what end? If they leave your "class" as ignorant as they arrived, would they even be aware of that?

Perhaps in "the age of the internet", they might! It's even possible that one or two might be on this board at this very moment...maybe posting in one of the "high school" threads about the awe-inspiring ignorance of their so-called "teachers".


Matthew
If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.

There are scattered passages like this one in all the "gospels", if I'm not mistaken.

And it always raises an interesting question.

Do Christians really believe that there are "classes" in "Heaven"?

Do the saints live in "Heavenly penthouses" -- because they "laid up so much treasure in Heaven" that they can afford the rent. While the marginally pious must content themselves with a small basement apartment in the "low-rent" district of the "Heavenly City".

What else is distributed in "Heaven" according to "how much treasure" you've "laid up there"?

Food? Health? Sex? :lol:

And what about social status? Do you get invited to all the "right parties" if you were "especially good on Earth"? But if you were just "barely saved" then a bigshot like St. Paul wouldn't even speak to a loser like you on the street.

The only time you'd ever "see Jesus" would be on the dummyvision.

If you could afford "Heavenly cable service". :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[STI]

Defined how?

I would dearly like to see these numbers.

How many are 'superstitious' or 'spiritual' or 'mysitical' or Deists or whatever?

I'd need to know exactly how it was phrased.

It's true that the question may have been ambiguous. The stats were in another thread in this forum, somewhere. If you don't feel like it, I'll try digging them up sometime a little later.

But, either way, it should be obvious that atheism is much more widespread today than it was even 20 years ago.


Not really.

I don't think Europe is at all close to a proletarian revolution or whatever, or really even moving towards it.

I suspect that it is moving towards an economic crisis though.

If/when their economies fail, watch as people flock back to church. Also note how they don't revolt.

.

Last time there was a huge economic crisis, people didn't "flock back to church" - because they knew it wouldn't work!

Europe has been turning away from religion so consistantly since 1789 that the Vatican was scrambling to sign concordats with whoever would have them (not least of all the Lateran Treaty with Moussolini's Italy and the Reichskoncordat with the Third Reich).


Guess which class has more religious people. Guess which has more atheists

That only demonstrates the social role of religion: "keeping the workers down", for lack of a desire to come up with a better term. More workers are duped by religion because that's what religion is supposed to do!


And yet I believe Spain is one of the more religious countries in Europe, is it not?

I'm not sure. It's tough to tell what living under a fascist dictatorship for 30-some years can do to a society, though.

[OkaCrisis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 01:59 AM

Defined how?

I would dearly like to see these numbers.

How many are 'superstitious' or 'spiritual' or 'mysitical' or Deists or whatever?

I'd need to know exactly how it was phrased.

But, either way, it should be obvious that atheism is much more widespread today than it was even 20 years ago.
Not true.
Like I said, almost exactly the same percentage of people today (from 84% in the 80's to 81% today) express belief in a God as they did 20 years ago. The source for that is actually lecture notes, so I don't know if you want it cited in order for it to be considered 'definitive'.

Project Canada National Survey: 2000

Believe in God:
Yes, definitely or Yes, I think so:
81%

Practise private prayer:
Daily to once a month:
56%
(Opposed to 44% who said: "Never")

Just some stats.
Atheism is NO MORE WIDESPREAD today than ever. The people are still being controlled.

[STI]

Believe in God:
Yes, definitely or Yes, I think so:
81%

Practise private prayer:
Daily to once a month:
56%
(Opposed to 44% who said: "Never")

Just some stats.
Atheism is NO MORE WIDESPREAD today than ever. The people are still being controlled.

Those stats are just for 2000, what were they in 1980?

And how about for Europe? They're better off than we are when it comes to religion (or lack thereof).