'Real' Communism.

[RedSabine]

Now, I've been reading the posts on this site, and I have seen a lot of people saying stuff like " Oh china isn't a real communist nation" or something like that about other nations. Now, Can anyone give me a deffinition of a REAL communist nation?

[STABD]

No money, NO GOVERMENT.

[KC]

There is no such thing as a "real communist nation". The phrase is contradictory, as communism has no nations, no countries, no states. Communism abolishes the state. Communism is basically "a classless, stateless society." You cannot have a stateless state, and you cannot have a classless society living in a capitalist world.

[Punk Rocker]

Now, Can anyone give me a deffinition of a REAL communist nation?

Well actually there can't be a communist nation, because in communism there is no state. But yeah STABD is right.

The countries that dumbasses call "communist countries" are really socialist. Socialism is a state to transition to communism, where the industry is run through democracy.

[KC]

The countries that dumbasses call "communist countries" are really socialist. Socialism is a state to transition to communism, where the industry is run through democracy.

Most of the time that isn't even true.

[Spartacus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 11:09 PM
Now, I've been reading the posts on this site, and I have seen a lot of people saying stuff like " Oh china isn't a real communist nation" or something like that about other nations. Now, Can anyone give me a deffinition of a REAL communist nation?
True Communism is stateless. True Communism is classless. True Communism is common ownership of the means of production. True Communism is abolishment of private property. True Communism entails the absolute triumph of human freedom, fraternity, and fellowship.

Don't let right-wing politics misguide you to think that USSR, China, and such nations were Communistic establishments.

[Hiero]

You can say a nation is Communist if you mean that there ideology is Communism.

[Spartacus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 04:52 AM
You can say a nation is Communist if you mean that there ideology is Communism.
Yeah, but what good is the nation if they don't practice Communism or even try to establish it? :huh:

[Jadan ja]

Now, I've been reading the posts on this site, and I have seen a lot of people saying stuff like " Oh china isn't a real communist nation" or something like that about other nations. Now, Can anyone give me a deffinition of a REAL communist nation?

If you are asking for the difference between socialism and communism, socialism is a social and economic system that comes between capitalism and communism. While communism is "from everyone according to abilities, to everyone according to persons needs", socialism is "according to persons work."

Maybe what you want to ask is what is the difference between socialism and the system existing in China today. It is very simple. look who do workers receive wage from: if it is from the capitalist, the country is capitalist and not socialist.

If you are asking for the difference between socialism and a dictatorship and that existed in many countries which called themselves socialist the difference is also simple: socialism is democratic and that means that people are both politically (people vote on elections) and economically (workers control the factories where they work) equal.

[Governmentally Confused]

But if there is no government, doesn't that mean basically chaos? In every successful empire, nation, w/e, there has been a gov't. Sometimes, those forms of gov't are not completely right. I have to say that, like everyone else says, there is no real Communist gov't. And I have to say that it is ideal...if it worked. But can "Real" Communism ever really work?

[Comrade Martin]

Hello, new here, but I think I can add to the debate. I think what is important here, after clarifying what Communism is, is to approach the Socialist question, since the original poster was inquiring about China. China obviously isn't Communist yet, particularly based on the very good definitions provided by other comrades here.

What is Socialism, in that event? Very basically, Socialism is the abolition of exploitation of man by man, and the assumption of rulership of the Proletariat over the state. Viz, the dictatorship of the Proletariat.

There are those who think that China's Communist Party has undergone complete revisionism from within its ranks and restored Capitalism by privatizing 2/3 of its economy. Others, however, contend that because the Chinese Communist Party still has control of the government and, by extension, property, business is still technically under the control of the working class via the CPC. This is assuming, on Marxist-Leninist terms, that the Party reprsents the working class anyway. But moving back to China, those who believe the latter proposal generally also think that a renationalization of China's economy is in its future, and that this is merely a Chinese version of Lenin's "New Economic Policy" which, like China, partially restored Capitalist property relations. My contacts with Chinese Communist Party members showed that there is a division even within the CPC, but there is definently a tendency among older members to eventually return to the traditional Socialist path once the economy has grown in proportion to the needs of its population.

That is a really long and detailed post and I apologize if I got too winded and overexplanatory. Hope it helps, somewhat!

[poetofrageX]

Originally posted by Governmentally [email protected] 5 2005, 12:09 AM
But if there is no government, doesn't that mean basically chaos? In every successful empire, nation, w/e, there has been a gov't. Sometimes, those forms of gov't are not completely right. I have to say that, like everyone else says, there is no real Communist gov't. And I have to say that it is ideal...if it worked. But can "Real" Communism ever really work?
Yes it can work, and no, it's not chaos. As long as socialism is allowed to develop into communism, the very mentality of humankind would evolve, and there would be no real need for a government. Thats why there is a transitional period of socialism, becuase if u go straight from capitalism to true communism, you would end up with a state of chaos, becuase people would still be operating in a capitalistic state of mind.

[Simotix]

Just wondering, if there is no nations or states then who ...


Pays for new roads?

Pays for education? Is it all like private schools where you have to pay to go?

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 10:03 PM
Just wondering, if there is no nations or states then who ...


Pays for new roads?

Pays for education? Is it all like private schools where you have to pay to go?
communities work in a gift economy. its called mutual aid, you do your job because someone else is doing a job thats helping you. there is no money, so community councils decide what resources need to go where to build what. its up to the people.

[Simotix]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 02:37 AM
so community councils decide what resources need to go where to build what.
Council as in gathering of people or council as it elected people?

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 09:52 AM
You can say a nation is Communist if you mean that there ideology is Communism.
If your'e going to refer to countries by ideology then the correct term is Marxist-Leninism, not communism. Those countries never claimed to be communist, they claimed to be socialist, it's just ignorant right-wingers who called them communist.

[KC]

Council as in gathering of people or council as it elected people?

Council as in a workers' council elected by direct democracy and recallable at any time. Meetings are public and everyone is encouraged to go.

[Simotix]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 05:59 AM


Council as in gathering of people or council as it elected people?

Council as in a workers' council elected by direct democracy and recallable at any time.
But they are still elected, what is to stop them from being corrupt and using their power in the wrong way?

[KC]

But they are still elected, what is to stop them from being corrupt and using their power in the wrong way?

What power? They are workers, they hold a normal job like everyone else. The "government" position is extra work that they voluntarily pick up to help their community. Plus, they don't have any power. The council as a whole decides on issues, and all members are recallable at any time.

[Simotix]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 04:35 PM
The council as a whole decides on issues, and all members are recallable at any time.
Yes, but is the council not elected?

Could fear prevent others from being elected?

Also members are recallable, but what do you mean by "recallable"?

I am not trying to go against or "bash communsim", I am just trying to find out some awnsers that I have not found yet. (Figured I would through this in before I get called something I am not).

[KC]

Yes, but is the council not elected?

Yes it is.


Could fear prevent others from being elected?

Fear of what? What's there to fear?


Also members are recallable, but what do you mean by "recallable"?

It means that if someone has a legitimate problem with one of the council members, that they can request a recall vote to see if that person will be voted out of office.

[Spirit of '94]

In a communist society, you have to understand that the democratic process is going to look very different from what you have now.

We're used to voting, electing and largely forgetting about our elected officials before voting them back into office. We expect them to "govern" FOR us. In a post-revolutionary society, the working class governs ITSELF. Not a vanguard, not a party bueracracy, not some psuedo-Marxist state overseas, not even the Revolutionary bodies in the next county. YOUR action and YOUR ideas, along with those in your immediate community, are responsible for YOUR "governance". There is no physical, central power; all power lies in within all men and women, all potential in all men and women.

Communist societies are somewhat chaotic, especially immediately following a "revolution"; efficiency won't matter a whole lot, simply because the whole damn economy has to be reorganized. This isn't something that's going to happen overnight. It would take years, and it would hectic, inefficient and absolutely democratic. The most significant political difference is that, once a decision is reached democratically, that's only a mandate: the workers themselves will be responsible for putting plans and words into action. No one's going to provide for them.

I think that's where critics go terribly wrong, and you start getting arguments about "human nature" which should be avoided whenever possible. They seem to think that socialists, communists, et. al. simply want to create a massive paternalistic State. And some do. In truth though, what we're trying to create is a society where the individual, through his interaction with the community, is able to enjoy the joys of simply being a human being and a member of his community. You are not forced to do anything; no one has any authority to MAKE you do much of anything.

All of the consequences, good and bad, will come from your action and your community's.

For instance:

You're nominated as head of a planning committee to redistribute housing after our hypothetical (and successful) revolution. You win your election, but it's close. In turn, because you're tainted by your time in a captialist society (:P ;) ) you end up giving some of the sweeter pads to your personal friends and allies, violating the temporary Constitution or common law established by revolutionary bodies.

The people who voted you in find out. They get pissed. They vote you out. No huge campaigns, no TV commercials, no glittering BS. They meet, both parties produce evidence and answer questions, then take a vote by secret ballot. In this case, you'll probably be prosecuted in a court of law. Don't ask me what Communist justice looks like; I don't have a real good answer. After this is all done, the Committee you once headed now starts over, probably with a completely new group of individuals.

There's not any outside influence over this decision making process. All decisions are carried out and monitored by the working classes who are directly affected. There would be huge amounts of social pressure to be involved; afterall, you're probably only working a few hours a day in any "job" and have housing, food, heat, etc. provided, so really have no excuse not to be involved in community planning.

This a really broad (and longwinded) response, but once people understand that there is NO "blueprint" for a Worker's Republic. If you're interested, I think that the Paris Commune and the Spanish Revolution are your best choices for seeing how a Communist society could function.

Sorry, this got long winded... but obviously, it's a topic that all of us have put some thought into. :)

[Simotix]

Could fear prevent others from being elected?

Fear of what? What's there to fear?
Fear (threats)/pressure from others to drop out of the election.



[QUOTE]It means that if someone has a legitimate problem with one of the council members, that they can request a recall vote to see if that person will be voted out of office.

Is there a percentage of votes needed? Is this like how someone that is to be "impeached" process is?

[Global_Justice]

mate you can't say "is there a number of votes needed" because this is just theory, like people have been saying, there is no blueprint.

[KC]

Fear (threats)/pressure from others to drop out of the election.

Why would there be threats? Society would look upon these people with respect, as they are willing to take on extra work for the good of society.



Is there a percentage of votes needed? Is this like how someone that is to be "impeached" process is?

You can't go into that much detail. It is just theory. That is what will be determined when the proletariat gets there.

[Simotix]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 10:21 PM

Fear (threats)/pressure from others to drop out of the election.

Why would there be threats? Society would look upon these people with respect, as they are willing to take on extra work for the good of society.
Well is that not, in theory what the American Revolution was suppose to do? We were suppose to look up to people such as George Washington (as President) with respect, however, over time things have changed.

[KC]

Well is that not, in theory what the American Revolution was suppose to do? We were suppose to look up to people such as George Washington (as President) with respect, however, over time things have changed.

The American Revolution was supposed to give more power to the people while still protecting the property rights of those who had accumulated more wealth. Its intention was in no way to give all the power to the people, as is so ignorantly stated so often. There is a reason that they didn't give too much power to the states, or to the people, and that is because they knew that if they did then they wouldn't be able to maintain their wealth.

[commie anarchist rebel]

im a new communist and ive got a very good idea of wat communism is. the way i see it from a non-lenist view that a revolution to end capitalism will start from then we enter the transition from capitalism to communism witch is socialism but instead of the dop we used a direct dimocracy once we have reached communism (after we've compleately destroyed capitalism) we can get rid of the state and live in a wonderful classless stateless community.
p.s. correct me if im wrong im new at this and this is only wat ive piced up so far as being an anarcho-communist

[red_fanatical_vn]

If u r a autual communist, u shouldnt give a quetsion about it : real communism ?
It is in a far future, so, now, we have to struggle for it, well...

[commie anarchist rebel]

i dissgaree with u just becauz u kno about the basics on real communism doesnt mean u cant learn more