Hello to everyone

[Jadan ja]

Hello.

I am from Croatia, but I dont live there anymore. I have been reading the discussions on these forums and I decided to join and express my opinions and ideas.

[rioters bloc]

welcome lots :)

what kinda stuff are you into in particular?

[Ouroboros]

Welcome.

[RedAnarchist]

Welcome to the forum.

What is your opinion on the former Yugoslavia, as a Croatian and a leftist?

[Jadan ja]

In my opinion former SFR Yugoslavia was probably most succesful socialist country in eastern Europe. The standard of living was higher and GDP grew 5.4 times from 1950 to 1980 (not a percentage, GDP in 1980 was 5.4 times larger than the GDP in 1950). I belive self-management was much better way of managing the companies than the systems that existed in other socialist countries (and certainly better than what exists in capitalist countries).

[Ouroboros]

I think Yugoslavia experiment had two major problems. The first one is atrocities done in the name of communism after WWII and break up with Soviet Union. These atrocities were never investigated, and that is the huge problem.

Other problem is that people never ever accepted communism. They accepted Tito as a leader, they accepted to some degree even Yugoslavia as solution of the national problem - but they never accepted communism as idea. In fact, they were not interested in communism at all. I never heard anyone but students of philosophy to actually read even the simplest Marx's works. Tito lived as king, and state organized lottery - sending the message that it is OK to get rich without work. In early 80's it looked like everyone is ashamed of the word "communism", even songs from the congress of the League of Communists in 1986 speak about peace, self-management and non-aligment - but not about communism.

Yugoslavia has shown that socialist economy can be more powerful than capitalist one- i.e. economy of modern Croatia is not a shadow of what it was 30 years ago. And that is really valuable fact.

[Jadan ja]

Investigating the crimes after WWII would most likely have the same impact as investigating the crimes done in war 15 years ago now has on people who fought in the war. To them, it sends a message that what they fought for was a crime, what they did is a crime and what they created is a crime. They do not want Ante Gotovina to be put on a trial, since he is a symbol. I think it would be possible that investigating crimes in 1940s would have had similar impact. I know that some (but not all) old partisans today are saying that those crimes never happened. I am not trying to justify not invastigating those crimes, I am just saying what impact would it possibly have.

[Ouroboros]

Investigating the crimes after WWII would most likely have the same impact as investigating the crimes done in war 15 years ago now has on people who fought in the war. To them, it sends a message that what they fought for was a crime, what they did is a crime and what they created is a crime.

Well, you are an optimist. I think that they support war crimes if done for their thing.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

ZDRAVO!

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Yugoslavia has shown that socialist economy can be more powerful than capitalist one

Comrade, there was nothing socialist about Yugoslavia's economy-- it was a market economy!

[Ouroboros]

Comrade, there was nothing socialist about Yugoslavia's economy-- it was a market economy!

Zdravo, druze.

Market-Plan economy is not white or black, it is matter of degree, and there are many levels of grey.

Surely, Yugoslav economy was more market, less plan regulated than majority of socialist countries in Europe, but still much, much less market regulated than any modern capitalist country, including Sweden and similar countries.

[Jadan ja]

Comrade, there was nothing socialist about Yugoslavia's economy-- it was a market economy!
You shouldnt equate planned with socialist and market with capitalist. The difference between socialism and capitalism is in who owns the means of production. That means that certain degree of a market economy can coexist with socialism. Also, capitalism can be planned, but it would not make it authomathically socialist

[Ouroboros]

Jadan Ja, I'd partly agree and partly disagree with you about that market-plan thing. In market economy, the main, almost sole criteria which determines how human and material resources are used is profitability, i.e. potential of given activity to increase invested capital. Hence, market economy = capitalism.

However, it can be still socialism - in the meaning "from each according to his ability, to each according to his work." Maybe it can be even some communism, because state could be sole buyer on the market, and then distribute things it bought to those in need, maybe not the most efficient communism, but still communism ...

Oh it is so complicated ...