American Democracy and Capitalism

[justice]

I found this post to be quite wonderful, and amusing. More power to you freind, for being yourself.


1) Marxist-Leninist

2) Marx's idea that free communism will lead to anarchistic self-rule.

3) None, American Democracy fuels the capitalist monster.

4) Protestant.

It was number 3 which inspired this thread. I am wondering if American Democracy fuels capitalism because the voters allow it to, or if there is an instiutionalized mechanism(s) which are the fuel. Of course I have a few different theories, but I am more interested in others opinions....

[TheComrade]

American politics is fuled entirely by capitalism - it is dominated by economics. The richest candidate will be the winner simply because he has the most friends, allies and can make sure the black votes are tossed into the Mississippi... (Georgey B.)

[Ouroboros]

There is nothing wrong with democracy, the problem is with demos. The truth is that people simply WANT the system as it is, they do not want anything more human. And it is not the worst thing, in Germany 1934 or in Rwanda few years ago, majority wanted genocide.

There is no way out of that. Communist must recognize the truth that roughly 1% of population support them, and work hard to get another 1% of support. Marathon starts with one step. Find your favorite communist party and vote.

[Red Leader]

Ouroboros: I agree that we are few in numbers, however, I dont understand what you mean when you say there is nothing wrong with democracy. Only 1% support communists, so how is this effective in a system that only listens to the majority? Voting for a communist pary does very little in the long run. I am not saying not to vote, for gods sake it would be ridiculous not to, but there has to be a better way to gain a majority of left wing thinkers. In Canada, you either vote Liberal or Conservative, there is of course the NDP ( a sort of left wing party that was originally based on social democracy, which introduced free health care in canada, it is now just a capitalist party painted red thats led by a guy with a porno mustache) , and countless other parties, however they have never been in power. My point is, I don't see the effectivness of majority rule in the USA or any other democracy. Whoever wins the election is by no means determined by the people . It is determined by cutthroat politics, economics and scandles that bring current governments to power. The "majority" of people may not always be right. Just look at the USA. The majority of citizens voted in Bush, however the majority also opposes the war in iraq. Go figure.

[justice]

American politics is fuled entirely by capitalism - it is dominated by economics. The richest candidate will be the winner simply because he has the most friends, allies and can make sure the black votes are tossed into the Mississippi...

I agree completely; contemporary american politics are fueled completely by capitalism, more specifically the dollar. however... maybe the reason for this is that american people are easily bought? perhaps finding ways to teach people that there are things more important than money is a good idea; such a change is certainly revolutionary. however, such a change could conceivable take place non violently? (sorry for my continued insistence upon non violence)



My point is, I don't see the effectivness of majority rule in the USA or any other democracy. Whoever wins the election is by no means determined by the people . I agree; the winner of an election cannot be called the peoples choice; but elections, are at this point in our development, the most effective way of determining popular opinion.

Finally, I think maybe the key to actually acheiving something through democracy is just doing it. (like nike :ph34r: ) if a group of revolutionaries who were committed to the people, to the working class, and to the ideals which matter most to us also made commitment to democracy we could "instituionalize revolution."

Just kickin around ideas....i deffinitely dont mean to offend....

respect.
Justice.

[TheComrade]

Justice - I believe a revolution can take place without violence - see the 'Revolution?, The "masses"' topic in Learning.

The system of democracy must be utilised in order for Communists to gain honour and support - instituionalised revolution is the way forward, the things to consider.

[redstar2000]

Lights! Cameras! Democracy! (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1083337292&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Guerrilla22]

To those in the US government and many US citizens capitalism=democracy.

[DisIllusion]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 12:30 AM
I found this post to be quite wonderful, and amusing. More power to you freind, for being yourself.


1) Marxist-Leninist

2) Marx's idea that free communism will lead to anarchistic self-rule.

3) None, American Democracy fuels the capitalist monster.

4) Protestant.

It was number 3 which inspired this thread. I am wondering if American Democracy fuels capitalism because the voters allow it to, or if there is an instiutionalized mechanism(s) which are the fuel. Of course I have a few different theories, but I am more interested in others opinions....
Hey I wrote that thing.

I believe that American Democracy fuels capitalism because capitalism works as long as the common worker is ignorant to the world around them. If you pay attention to the past two elections, both of the major parties; Democratic and Republican, basically supported the same things. There is really no clear difference in ideals between them, which makes sense, since our politicians are naturally pragmatic as to stay in power longer.

To prove my belief that the common voter/worker is completely ignorant, let's look at the typical young 20 year old who is plugged into pop culture. He or she probably listens to celebrities talk about politics, the most infamous of them being Green Day. Now, if any of you have heard Green Day's latest album "American Idiot", it is possibly the most hypocritical, lying piece of politcally-charged "punk-rock" bullshit I have ever heard. Truth is, you don't even have to listen to the album to see and hear their lies. During the last election, they were parading around their "left-wing" beliefs and letting one and all know how they voted for Kerry.

The true, educated, left winger would have researched both candidates' ideals and plans for the country. They would have seen that Kerry would have raised taxes in order to heal the deficit the Bush caused in his years in office when we were already in an economic slump, thereby hurting the common worker even more. For the hot-button issue of Iraq, Kerry actually wanted to ship two more divisions of troops to Iraq to "finish the war". Now, I'm not much of a supporter of the troops, but I don't want to see anybody die for some dumbshit war that was started on false terms, and sending more troops to Iraq would hardly seem to help the situation and might even make it worse, since most Islamic countries might see it as a American colonization if more American troops went over.

Back to the common 20 or so year old worker, they probably wouldn't research that much, and just look at the surface. They would see all the celebrities' opinions, and that would influence their own personal opinions. They would see that Bush started the war and is a bad leader, which is true, but in a blind rage to get Bush out of office, they are willing to take any other substitute, on the basis that "They are not Bush." Which is undoubtably ignorant and very dangerous, since a fascist posing as a good substitute to the current leader could easily take power. Look how close the last election was.

Capitalists love to argue with me that "Communism only works on paper." But I say that Democracy only works on paper. "Government for the people, by the people" probably sounded good to our founding fathers, but they probably didn't take into account the ignorance, laziness, and total lack of interest in political matters that the common person would have in the next two hundred or so years.

As for my religious beliefs, I already explained that in the "Politics" forum.

Ok, rant over.

[DisIllusion]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 02:56 PM
To those in the US government and many US citizens capitalism=democracy.
Yeah, that seems to be the common belief here in the U.S.

[I'd Rather Be Drinking]

Asking whether democracy fuels capitalism is a backward question. Democracy (like dictatorship) is a political form for managing capitalism. The modern state and modern democracy came along at the same time as the rise to power of the bourgeoisie. They are the way that the individual competing capitalist interests are brought together into a community. Democracy doesn't "only work on paper", democracy works very well at managing capitalist countries. It is "government by the people for the people". And as Joe Hill once said, "'the people' and the working class have nothing in common."

Democracy is the way we are ruled. Working class people sometimes vote for the lesser evil, but no one believes politicians are working for our interests any more. More often than not we just don't vote.

And what is the response of the "revolutiony left"?

"People simply WANT the system as it is."
We need to "teach people that there are things more important than money."
"The common voter/worker is completely ignorant."

This is the kind of elitist bullshit that exposes what most lefties really want--to change the world, so that they, and not the current politicians, get to run the police, the government and the economy. Which of course is the "common sense" view that most American proles will voice if you ask someone about "communism".

[RedStarMilitia]

I agree with TheComrade, George Bush wins because he has extremely rich allies, these allies push capitalism and global warming further. I believe simply that if they vote for him he will deny any social/global problem; look at his lack of input with regards to the state of global warming - he has many allies in the oil industry.

[DisIllusion]

Nonetheless, I still think Bush was a better choice than Kerry. And sorry if I sounded a elitist, I just needed a good rant.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 06:33 PM
Nonetheless, I still think Bush was a better choice than Kerry. And sorry if I sounded a elitist, I just needed a good rant.
Holy shit. :o

[DisIllusion]

Holy shit? :huh:

[Ouroboros]

"People simply WANT the system as it is."

This is the kind of elitist bullshit that exposes what most lefties really want--to change the world, so that they, and not the current politicians, get to run the police, the government and the economy.

Oh, no, no - if I said "people simply want the system as it is", it is not important who am I. I can be elite, or base, I can crave for power - or not. I can be pacifist, lunatic, nazist, Fidel Castro, sumo fighter or whatever. It simply does not matter. Only thing that matters in the scope of this discussion is - is it true or false.

And yes, it is damn true - people simply WANT the system as it is now. At least in America.

[I'd Rather Be Drinking]

People obviously have certain contradictory ideas, and I'm not saying that a referendum at the moment would lead us to communism. At the same time, this is complete bullshit. Most working class people want more healthcare, and we don't have it. Most are against the war, yet the war is going on. And on a more basic level people in the US are deeply dissatisfied with their lives under modern 21st century capitalism. If you really think people are just happy with the status quo, then what is the basis for any kind of change?

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 10:00 PM
Holy shit? :huh:
Bush a better choice than Kerry? They both suck ass.

[fpeppett]

American democracy is as contradictory as saying your protetestant and lenninst/marxist.

BUsh and Kerry are the same thing, there is no difference between the republicans and democrats, just one party pretending to be two means there is no opposition.

[DisIllusion]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 01:58 PM
American democracy is as contradictory as saying your protetestant and lenninst/marxist.

BUsh and Kerry are the same thing, there is no difference between the republicans and democrats, just one party pretending to be two means there is no opposition.
It might be contradictory, but I just find it hard to let it all go this quickly. Right now in my mind, i'm always debating over Christianity and Marxism with myself. So far I have realized two things:

1)I'm only still a Christian because i'm afraid of Jesus' second coming/the apocalypse and the fact that i've sinned quite a bit and might look bad.

2)I talk to myself too much.

So yeah I don't know, following a religion that only works on people's fear of being sent to Hell doesn't seem too hot. (no pun intended)

That, and plus my capitalist Christian mom would probably kill herself if I told her i'm going Agnostic.

[bolshevik butcher]

American democracy is really an illusion as most of it is based upon funding from corporations. A real leftist candidate would never be able to stand, as they wouldnt recieve the funding necessery to mount a campaign, and the media would blanket there campaign.

Through this election process, this veil of so called democracy passess over the american people and most just accept it as sutch.

[fpeppett]

Its a shame socialist groups can only get funding from thier true supporters, as there will be no companies benefiting from their rule, the ONLY reason capitalist governments get funded.


It might be contradictory, but I just find it hard to let it all go this quickly. Right now in my mind, i'm always debating over Christianity and Marxism with myself. So far I have realized two things:

1)I'm only still a Christian because i'm afraid of Jesus' second coming/the apocalypse and the fact that i've sinned quite a bit and might look bad.

2)I talk to myself too much.

So yeah I don't know, following a religion that only works on people's fear of being sent to Hell doesn't seem too hot. (no pun intended)

That, and plus my capitalist Christian mom would probably kill herself if I told her i'm going Agnostic

Yea man, wasn't really having a go, I just wanted my 'contradiction' point to sound good, that was the first thing i saw.