Peace and Freedom Party

[WUOrevolt]

This is what the Peace and Freedom Party stands for:


The Peace and Freedom Party, founded in 1967, is committed to socialism, democracy, ecology, feminism and racial equality. We represent the working class, those without capital in a capitalist society. We organize toward a world where cooperation replaces competition, a world where all people are well fed, clothed and housed; where all women and men have equal status; where all individuals may freely endeavor to fulfill their own talents and desires; a world of freedom and peace where every community retains its cultural integrity and lives with all others in harmony. We offer this summary of our immediate and long-range goals:

Socialism
Labor and Full Employment
Peace and International Justice
Equal Rights and Liberties
Women
Ending Racism & National Oppression
Language Rights
Undocumented Workers
Native Americans
Sexual Orientation
The Disabled
Retired Workers
Defense of the Environment
Transportation
Agriculture
Education
Housing and Rent Control
Freedom, Justice and Crime
Voting and Elections
Health Care
Taxes
Mass Media
Religion
Socialism

We support social ownership and democratic management of industry and natural resources. Under capitalism, the proceeds of labor go to the profits of the wealthy few. With socialism, production is planned to meet human needs.

To us, socialism is workers' democracy, including the principle that all officials are elected, recallable at any time, and none receives more than a worker's wage. Socialism can only be brought about when we, the working class, unite and act as a body in our own interests. Our goals cannot be achieved by electoral means alone.We participate in mass organization and direct action in neighborhoods, workplaces, unions and the armed forces everywhere.



While organizing for the future, we work in the present, challenging the system with the following immediate and transitional goals:

Labor and Full Employment

We demand a socially useful job at union pay levels or a guaranteed dignified income for everyone.
We support the establishment of a Universal Basic Income (UBI) to alleviate poverty and homelessness.
We call for a 30-hour work week for 40 hours' pay and abolition of forced overtime.
We demand a legally mandated annual paid vacation of at least 4 weeks.
We demand expansion and enforcement of job health and safety laws. We call for the restoration of all labor rights previously won by women and their extension to men as well.
We demand paid parental leaves and time off work for childcare.
No prison labor for private profit. Living wage and full union rights for any prison labor.
Defend workers' rights to organize, form union caucuses, strike, and boycott.
No replacement of striking workers.
Federally-funded public works programs to rebuild the nation's infrastructure and restore the environment.
International solidarity of workers against international capitalist schemes such as NAFTA and WTO in defense of jobs, wages, working conditions and environmental laws.
International trade agreements must guarantee the protection of workers and democratic rights in all participating countries.
A rank and file socialist-oriented labor movement to mobilize working-class people to assume ownership and control of the economy.

Peace and International Justice

The drive for greater profits by multi-national corporations which direct U.S. foreign policy is a major cause of war. We stand for peace between nations and the right of all peoples to self-determination. We support an ongoing socialist transformation everywhere. We therefore call for:

The U.S. to renounce nuclear first strike, and take the initiative toward global disarmament by eliminating all of its nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.
No U.S. intervention anywhere. End all support and aid to repressive regimes and all military and police training aid everywhere. End efforts to destabilize foreign governments. End U.S.-directed economic warfare against other countries. Abolish the CIA, NSA, AID and other agencies for interference inother countries' internal affairs. Withdraw all U.S. troops and weapons from all other countries.
Stop all U.S. arms exports and trade.
Dissolve all military pacts.
Convert from military to peaceful production; reallocate the resulting "peace dividend" for social benefit.
Abolish the Selective Service System.
No weapons in space.


Equal Rights and Liberties

The capitalists use every difference in society, including sex, ethnicity, language, sexual orientation, age, and physical abilities to divide workers in order to depress wages, maintain a surplus labor pool, and prevent working-class unity. We demand equal treatment of all people by employers, businesses and government. We stand for a world free from all forms of oppression.




Women

We demand full equality for women in all aspects of life. Sexism is a major instrument for teaching relations of domination and inequality and for keeping one-half of the workforce underpaid or unpaid. We work to end oppressive sex roles in society. We must ensure equal rights and responsibilities in child raising. Unions must do more to organize women and promote women's leadership. We demand:

Adoption of an equal rights amendment.
Equal pay for equal work, and for work of comparable worth.
Enforce non-discrimination in hiring and promotion with affirmative action where necessary.
Provision of free, high-quality, community-controlled child care.
Convenient provision of safe, free birth control information and materials to men and women of any age.
Free abortion on demand.
No forced abortions or sterilizations.
Safe prenatal care.
End violence against women.


Ending Racism and National Oppression

Accompanying the continuing economic crisis, we see a rise in racial discrimination, increased terrorism against racially and nationally oppressed people, and retrenchment in civil rights. Minority families are disproportionately victimized by cutbacks in health care, education, child care, welfare, food stamps and jobs.We demand:

End all forms of racial discrimination.
Enforce non-discrimination in hiring and promotion withaffirmative action where necessary.
Prosecute and punish police and prison officials who brutalize and murder.

Language Rights

Restore to the State Constitution co-equal status for Spanish as an official language of California in recognition of its cultural, historical, economic and demographic importance to the people of this state.

Abolish all English-only laws and policies, including those of private employers.


Undocumented Workers

Immigrant workers are hounded by government authorities, worked and housed in substandard conditions by unscrupulous bosses, and blamed by Republican and Democratic demagogues for society's problems.

We call for open borders.
We demand an end to deportations of immigrants.
We demand full political, social and economic rights for resident non-citizens.


Native Americans

We support self-determination of indigenous peoples and sovereignty for Native nations. We demand:

Honor treaty obligations with Native American nations and recognize California tribes.
Stop the theft of natural resources located on reservation lands.
Honor Native American water, hunting and fishing rights.
Free the prisoners of the FBI/BIA war against Native Americans, end all harassment.
Stop destruction of sacred burial sites.


Sexual Orientation

Equal treatment and benefits under the law for all families. Guarantee equal child custody, adoption, visitation privileges, and foster parenthood rights for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people.
Equal treatment for all people in the military regardless of sexual orientation.
The right to gay marriage and partners' benefits.
Accurate sex education courses in public schools. Truthful information about sexuality in society and history.


The Disabled

The disabled are entitled to special consideration and planning in education, housing, health, recreation, transportation and attendant care to enable fuller participation in all aspects ofsociety.




Retired Workers

Retired workers must be guaranteed a decent living at union wage levels. We demand:

Immediate improvements in economic benefits and social services.
Free, quality, multi-lingual and multi-cultural medical and home health care.
Accessible transportation.
An end to all forced retirement.
Stop the segregation and isolation of senior citizens.


Defense of the Environment

The same corporate forces and economic system that exploit and brutalize the world's working class people are destroying the world's biosphere. These social policies and ecollogical destruction often overlap. Socialism is necessary to end the ecological destruction caused by capitalism. Our goal is a society that is in harmony with nature as it is in harmony with its own people.

We therefore favor:

Planning for urban and regional environment based on principles of sound ecosystems management.
Create public open spaces in all communities.
Tighter regulation of pesticides, herbicides, industrial wastes and genetically modified foods to protect human food, air and water, employees in theworkplace, and species habitat. No release of genetically engineered or transgenic organisms into the wild. No patenting of life forms.
A multi-source energy system, development of solar technology and other renewable, non-polluting energy sources. Eliminate nuclear power plants. End fossil fuel dependence.
Public ownership of public utilities.
Protect species habitat such as old-growth forests to preserve biodiversity.
Massive development of free public transportation.
International trade agreements must guarantee the protection of the environment in all participating countries.
End environmental racism, including the immediate cessation of nuclear testing and toxic waste dumping on reservation lands, the disproportionate creation of landfills in poor communities of color and eliminate the mass development of maquiladora plants.


Transportation

Massive development of public transportation systems that are reliable, frequent, free or at nominal fares and environmentally sound.
Expand safe routes for foot and bicycle traffic.


Agriculture

We want an agricultural system that ensures enough food and other farm products to meet human needs, guarantees a high standard of living to farmers and farm workers, protects humans and the ecosystem from environmental degredation and encourages organic farming. To that end, we call for:

An end to subsidies and tax breaks for corporations.
Food distribution by farm and consumer cooperatives.
Extension of all labor rights to farm workers, including wage and hour regulations.
An end to cruel methods of animal husbandry.
No use of recominant bovine growth hormone (RBGH) in meat or dairy cattle.
No genetically engineered organisms in food production.
A ban on "terminator" seeds.
No export of chemicals banned in the U.S. or import of agricultural products treated with them.

Education

Education is critical to individual survival and civilized human values, but U.S. capitalism is dismantling public education.Inadequate and unequal funding of schools perpetuates racism,crime and inequality.We demand:

Integrated, democratically-run schools with up-to-date plant and equipment and smaller classes.
Teach the history of workers' struggles and labor's creation of society's wealth and progress.
Multi-lingual and multi-cultural education at all levels.
A federal law requiring and funding equal average per-pupil expenditures by every public school district, with extra funds for students with special needs such as disability or economic deprivation.
Tuition-free higher education available to all.
Restore cutbacks in public education and public library services.
No school voucher schemes.


Housing and Rent Control

We recognize the right of everybody to quality, secure housing. We demand:

Production and rehabilitation of non-profit, community-controlled housing through public financing with immediate emphasis on housing the homeless.
Rent and eviction control laws and collective bargaining for tenants.
Resident-controlled community renovation programs to create, not destroy, low- and moderate-income housing.
Enforce local affordable housing quotas.


Freedom, Justice and Crime

We call for the defense and extension of the liberties guaranteed in the Bill of Rights, including freedom of speech, press, assembly and association, and the right to keep and bear arms for individual and collective defense. The ultimate guarantee of those rights is the organized strength of the working class.

Capitalism and poverty breed crime and repression. Working class people are the primary victims both of street crime and of police reaction to it. The bosses use laws against victimless activities, "legal" and illegal expansion of police powers, military and paramilitary occupation of poor and minority communities, and diversion of resources to police and jails, to keep workers intimidated and dependent.We demand:

Stop state-sponsored spying on and violence against progressive organizations.
Democratically-controlled police review boards with powers of subpoena and discipline.
Abolish the death penalty.
Repeal the Three Strikes law.
Stop trials and imprisonment of juveniles as adults.
Treatment of prisoners as human beings; rehabilitation, not vengeance.
Decriminalize victimless activities including drug use and consensual sex. Legalize marijuana. End the "war on drugs," which is primarily directed against poor and working-class people.
Stop unwarranted searches and seizures of persons and property. Restore constitutional rights.
Prosecute crimes of the wealthy and powerful against workers and the environment.
Freedom for all political prisoners.

Voting and Elections

Proportional representation to promote legislative representation of the wide variety of political viewpoints.
Enforce and extend voting rights for people of color, non-English speakers, and homeless people.
Election should be by direct vote of the people. Eliminate the Electoral College.
Enforce and extend voting rights for people of color, non-English speakers, and homeless people.
Free and equal access to radio and television for all candidates.


Health Care

We believe that access to quality medical and dental care is a basic human right. We stand for a democratically-controlled, publicly-funded health care system. We support health practices that emphasize education, prevention and nutrition. We demand:

Free, high-quality health care for everyone.
Eliminate for-profit health care.
Free immunization programs.
No private patents on drugs developed through publicly-funded research.
Price controls on drugs and medical technology.
Safe pre-natal care, including women's choice of birth alternatives.
More medical facilities to provide services and education in low-income neighborhoods and rural areas.
More substance abuse treatment and needle-exchange programs.
More research into diseases and disorders caused by man-made substances.
More community health care facilities.
Support non-standard proven methods.
Special attention to preventing epidemics of communicable diseases, such as AIDS.


Taxes

Public services and infrastructure have deteriorated as government has increasingly shifted the tax burden from corporations to workers. Our long-range goal is a socialist society without conventional taxes, with public services to be funded from the proceeds of social production. We demand:

Repeal Proposition 13. Tax property for profit, not property for personal use. Remove property taxes on modest owner-occupied homes.
Repeal the sales tax.
Include aggregate of real property and stocks, bonds, etc. in a steeply-graduated property tax.
Restore the renters' tax credit.
Double registration fees on luxury vehicles.
Tax unearned income at a higher rate than earned income.
Eliminate or reverse income tax on low- and moderate-income families.
Re-enact California's unitary tax on multi-national corporations.
Tax the business activities of churches on the same basis as other organizations.
Take the cap off social security taxes, make the rates progressive so burden falls on the wealthy.

Mass Media

Ownership of television and radio stations, print media, and other forms of communication has been increasingly concentrated into the irresponsible hands of fewer corporations, and any checks and balances previously available to the people have been eliminated.

We call for public control of the public airwaves.
We demand restoration of a strengthened Fairness Doctrine and the Equal Time Provision.
We oppose the legislated extinction of the VHF spectrum, which should be used for public monitoring of legislative bodies and for other civic purposes.
We defend the Internet from censors and commercial interests.
We call for enforcement of antitrust laws on media conglomerates.
We support new media for grassroots communication to enhance freedom of self-expression and information distribution.

Religion

We demand strict separation of religious and government institutions and activities.

[WUOrevolt]

These were their presidential candidates:


1968 - Eldridge Cleaver
1972 - Benjamin Spock
1980 - Maureen Smith
1988 - Herbert Lewin
1992 - Ronald Daniels
1996 - Marsha Feinland
2004 - Leonard Peltier

[JKP]

Yet another reformist party out of the woodwork; I think I'll pass.

Real communists and anarchists don't vote.

[our_mutual_friend]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 07:08 PM
Real communists and anarchists don't vote.
I'm sorry, what do they do?
Revolt??
Revolutionise the world in one glorious sweep, killing all in their path and killing all who oppose them in their future goals???

Wouldn't it make more sense to have a candidate and then democraticaly elect said candidate, this by recruiting followers to the cause and changing their minds through crushing speeches, rather than by crushing opposition.

How exactly do you propose for an ideal like Communsim to become a reality if you are wiling to sit back and do nothing or make an attempt at revolution that would fail without the support of a high majority behind it????

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by our_mutual_friend+Nov 26 2005, 01:18 PM--> (our_mutual_friend @ Nov 26 2005, 01:18 PM)
[email protected] 26 2005, 07:08 PM
Real communists and anarchists don't vote.
I'm sorry, what do they do?
Revolt??
Revolutionise the world in one glorious sweep, killing all in their path and killing all who oppose them in their future goals???

Wouldn't it make more sense to have a candidate and then democraticaly elect said candidate, this by recruiting followers to the cause and changing their minds through crushing speeches, rather than by crushing opposition.

How exactly do you propose for an ideal like Communsim to become a reality if you are wiling to sit back and do nothing or make an attempt at revolution that would fail without the support of a high majority behind it???? [/b]
Overcoming the bourgeois norms of elections is a near impossible task. Chavez is a good example of this, he has most of Venezuelan society supporting him yet it a struggle for him to retain his post.

And there still remains the fact that one type of state cannot change into another without a radical transformation at the base. Without a revolution by the workers their can be no workers’ republic.

[our_mutual_friend]

But as Communism is an ideal and has never fully worked, how can you be sure that a total revolution is needed for working class to have a workers' republic? You'd probably say this is dictatorial but what about a change FOR the workers but also made WITH the workers and with others supporting it. Surely this would work better than an all-out revolution that would, of course, have large opposition at any point in its completion (such is humanity, apparently) ?

I'm afraid I believe in elections as they appear to be the fairest way of electing the people's choice. Unfortunately this appears to be an ideal much like Communism - it never (or so it seems from many points of view) seems to work correctly. I am certainly not impressed with Britain's democracy, but that's probably because dear Mr Blair is in government.

I still dont see that an all-out revolution could ever work.

[More Fire for the People]

I still dont see that an all-out revolution could ever work.
What the hell?
Have you never heard of the French Revolution? American Revolution? October Revolution? Chinese Revolution?

[our_mutual_friend]

I think the French revolution was not so successful due to the use of the guillotine to execute many upper class.
I do not agree with the use of violence to get your point across, except for extreme circumstances that are beyond your control. I do not see how it can benefit people when so many have to die (so many unwilingly) for someone else's cause.

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 12:03 AM
I think the French revolution was not so successful due to the use of the guillotine to execute many upper class.
I do not agree with the use of violence to get your point across, except for extreme circumstances that are beyond your control. I do not see how it can benefit people when so many have to die (so many unwilingly) for someone else's cause.
Well put.

[WUOrevolt]

I agree with Emma Goldman to only use violence in self defense, with very few exceptions.

[JKP]

We are not here to toss a few concessions to the proletariat; we are here to abolish class society altogether. We have tried reformism for the past 150 years and it got it us nowhere closer to communism. Indeed it was the open rebellion of the Paris commune, and the civil war in Spain during 1936 that got us anywhere near communism.

You cannot be non-violent in the most violent society ever created.

[Comrade-Z]

I'm inclined to support a diversity of approaches. I think it should be publicly and ardently expressed that voting will not solve all, or even many, of our problems--that's it's ultimately a game for the rich and not the solution to our problems. But I think we can also use it in the meantime, as long as we remain cognizant that when we use tools, they use us back! We must not disproportionately invest too much time and effort in such an avenue or get emotionally dependent on our successes in such an avenue. But I do think there is a place for working within the system, if only to earn trust among people who haven't already been convinced of the need for revolutionary change and to show that we are doing things in the here-and-now to give practical aid to people.

As far as the national electoral system, though, as it is right now, it's beyond use, it seems to me. We need some serious electoral reform (run-off voting, etc.) before it could ever become of any use to us.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 07:08 PM
Real communists and anarchists don't vote.
Of course they do, well maybe not the anarchists. But political parties are another tool in the proletariat's arsenal. Why not harass the bourgeois even in their seats of power?

Once the party understands that its taking orders from the proletariat of course. I suspect that a number of such parties will srping up when the time comes.

[Xvall]

What's their policy on drugs?

[khalam_1232000]

Real communists and anarchists don't vote.


i disagree with u strongly, i mean unless ur actually planning on armed uprising what are u gonna do?, in american i suppose i can see the point of not voting considering its a 2 party state, but here in canada we do vote because we can get in, in fact we have had 3 members elected to parliment, so we do have some what of a history

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 08:34 PM
What's their policy on drugs?
they want marijauna to be legal

[Xvall]

What about the other ones?

[khalam_1232000]

can someone please explain this to me, like why is the american government so centralised on two parties the democrats and the republicans? i mean does anyone else really actually have a chance to get into power? i know ralph nader got like 2 million votes few years ago, and i could not get over the fact that he was not part of congress or whatever its called, here in canada 2 million votes and ur almost pm lol

[JKP]

Electing a few socialists to power to enact social welfare programs are in no way related to communism. That's just putting a few "band-aids" on class society.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Wow, reformism. A sop to the working class. Suffice to say I am really unimpressed with those of you supporting reformism.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Yeah, bourgeois "democracy" seems to be big around here.. it's a discredit to the name of the board.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 02:24 AM
Electing a few socialists to power to enact social welfare programs are in no way related to communism. That's just putting a few "band-aids" on class society.
And who said anything about democratic socialists? It is perfectly possible to carry out a parliamentarian and revolutionary campaign at the same time. The armalite and ballot box approach so to speak.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Not everything that worked in Russia in 1916 works today.

[ComradeOm]

Where does Russia come into this? Surely its common sense that as the class consciousness of the proletariat develops then we will see the development of parties that mirror this?

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Diego [email protected] 26 2005, 01:57 PM
American Revolution?
I hate to nit-pick, but I would definitely not characterize the American "revolution" as anything even close to an all out revolution.

[our_mutual_friend]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 09:01 PM
You cannot be non-violent in the most violent society ever created.
How do you know that this is the most violent society? Do you believe it is because you happen to be aorund in this society? What about in Ancient times? In Rome? In Greece? They were brutally violent! They went round conquering and destroying, so how can you call this the most violent society when you have never experienced any other? (Though admittedly, from where I stand, it is pretty violent. And if you meant man by that then I would have to agree).
But violence is not the only way and as far as I'm concerned it solves nothing as people die for something they dont believe in - not matyrdom, just plain terrors and massacres of oppostion. I see that as a cowardly way out.

Surely it is better and benefits more if more people believe in the abolishment of a class system and everything else and consequently vote (in this slightly twisted electorial system) for this to happen?

JKP appears to believe in anarcho-communism and a stateless society?

[bolshevik butcher]

I sympathise with your kantian ideals to an extent, however what happens when the state is as engles put it, 'Reduced to a body of armed men defending private property.'

Good luck defending socialism against the capitalist armies without weapons. In venezuela the people are now forming militias with 100 000 ak47s. They are needed to defend against reationary elements form within venezuela and against U$ imperialism.

[our_mutual_friend]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 27 2005, 12:50 PM
I sympathise with your kanian ideals to an extent, however what happens when the state is as engles put it, 'Reduced to a body of armed men defending private property.'
We can only hope that that will never happen. Unfortunately that is just it - hope. And hope never won a war or an election. Good luck to the world, but people will continue to hope.

[bolshevik butcher]

Hope alone will not win the class war. We have to be prepaired to fight the beugoirse, with weapons and words.

And as for that paticualr hope, i think that if we are to truly challenge capitalism, it is inevitable that the state will become a body of armed emn defending private porperty.

[our_mutual_friend]

Armed men defending private property? Sad. It's like farming gone wrong.

Personally I choose words. They physically hurt less. Call me a pacifist if you will, but weapons will never help anyone. Unfortunately we will never be able to completely do away with them. Wishful thinking gets you nowhere really.

[bolshevik butcher]

Pacifism gets more people killed and often to no avail. Of course there is a time for non violence. I have attended many non-violent demos, but there will be a time and a place for violence, and the worst thing that we could do for the working class would be to leave them unarmed and nprepaired. For a revolution to uscceed the worlking class has to be armed. This was learned in chile the hard way.

[Cyber Communist]

I'm sorry, what do they do?
Revolt??

YES!!!


Revolutionise the world in one glorious sweep, killing all in their path and killing all who oppose them in their future goals???

That's not revolution!

That sounds like the histroy of the German army in World War Two.

Strange that, given Hitler was elected.


Wouldn't it make more sense to have a candidate and then democraticaly elect said candidate, this by recruiting followers to the cause and changing their minds through crushing speeches, rather than by crushing opposition.

NO!

You cannot overthrow or abolish capitalism if you work within the very political system that capitalism created. Do you honestly think the capitalist class are that stupid, that they would create a system that could be done away with that easily???

Im sorry, but if I were an average man on the street and you came up to me saying that to overthrow the current system I live under, I need to go and vote and show my puplic support to the very system you told me I should oppose.

It is a contradiction that is so obvious that it has failed in history time and time again.

There is not one example of a reformist 'path to socialism/communism' ever occuring throughout history.

All reformist governments have either been overthrown in a capitalist counter-attack (Chile 1973, Iran 1953, Guatemala 1954, Burkina Faso 1987 and Pakistan 1977) or we can see that many other reformist governments have sold out their original policies and instead follow the line of the ruling capitalist class (France 1981-86, Germany 1998-2005, Italy 1995-96, U$A under all Democratic governments and Spain 1982-1996/2003-)

Reformism has cost the lives of millions of now dead workers both by allowing the capitalist enemy to return to attack us and impose their oppression on us or through allowing capitalism to contiue it's parasitic existence. Not once has reformism ever empowered the people or brought us any closer to the liberation that all oppressed peoples seek.

If you wish to back up your opinion that somehow we are all missing out by not following the enslaving belief system that is reforism and capitalist elections, then please show us a successful historical example, though I bet you will not be able to.


How exactly do you propose for an ideal like Communsim to become a reality if you are wiling to sit back and do nothing or make an attempt at revolution that would fail without the support of a high majority behind it????

No one has said anything about starting a revolution without popular and deep rooted support amongst the working class.

No one ever made that point so don't twist the words of others to back up your poorly though out ideas.

Besides using violence to take power without popular support is a coup d' etat.

Revolutions and coups are very different, yet you seem to blur those differences. Please invest in a dictionary as you really do need one!


But as Communism is an ideal and has never fully worked

And how do you know this considering communism has NEVER existed in human history yet!

Communism is a classless, moneyless, society without any religion or superstition or the nuclear family or any form of social, economic or political oppressive relations beween different humans.

Until communism has actually come into existence, please don't make immature assumptions as you cannot use any objective examples and your only furthere displaying your ignorance of history.


how can you be sure that a total revolution is needed for working class to have a workers' republic?

Remeber something called history???

That tells us a lot on why revoltuions are the way to a workers republic.


You'd probably say this is dictatorial but what about a change FOR the workers but also made WITH the workers and with others supporting it. Surely this would work better than an all-out revolution that would,

No it would not!


of course, have large opposition at any point in its completion (such is humanity, apparently) ?

The large opposition you talk about is why revolution is needed and not sell out refromism. Revolutions do a very good job at dealing with the capitalist opposition.

You also cannot make such assumptions about the condition of the human race without some back up and evidence. And Im guessing such evidence is not in your possesion.


I'm afraid I believe in elections as they appear to be the fairest way of electing the people's choice.

Which is why the likes of Hitler and Bush and Sahron etc... came to power.

It's very fair isn't it. I mean 20% of America's population of voting age vote and put G.W. Bush into the White House and then they get their pensions cut, the Medicare budget is cut, civil liberties (what littles ones existed) are gone at the stroke of a pen and Bush signs the Patriot Act.

Please can you at least make an effort to put your arguements across, as this is beyond intellectual laziness.


I am certainly not impressed with Britain's democracy, but that's probably because dear Mr Blair is in government.

I was never impressed with British so-called democracy, from it's birth it was ripe for destruction!


I think the French revolution was not so successful due to the use of the guillotine to execute many upper class.

Errr, that was one of the reasons why it was successful.

Ever read up on the royalist counter attacks on Revolutionary France, the royalists were in league with the Russian Empire and the British Empire.

The death of vile parasitic French aristocrats was a golden era in human history.

But of course the poltically blind, such as yourself are indifferent to such events.


I do not agree with the use of violence to get your point across,

Which means if you oppose capitalsim, you will never get your point across!


I do not see how it can benefit people when so many have to die (so many unwilingly) for someone else's cause.

Given that your blind to historical facts and to the basics of communist ideology, Im not suprised you can't see the many benefits of revolution.

Besides, a cruel slave owner who beat and sometimes killed his slave, there were many of these types in the Carribbean in the slave revolts of the 1800s.

Im sure the slaves benefited when the slave master got his well deserved execution.

Im sure the French peasants benefited when they saw their old aristocratic master get the chop.

Im sure many Cubans were happy to see Batista's thugs get what awaited them at the firing squads set up by Che Guevara.


How do you know that this is the most violent society? Do you believe it is because you happen to be aorund in this society? What about in Ancient times? In Rome? In Greece? They were brutally violent! They went round conquering and destroying, so how can you call this the most violent society when you have never experienced any other?

Well the fact that we have now developed industrialised killings and the worlds population is now at around 6.5 billion mean that the most humans who were killed at the hands of other humans took place in the 20th century.

More people died in the two world wars in the 20th century than the total human population of the Ancient times of Rome and Greece.

And how can you claim that the Ancient societies were more violent if you were not there?


But violence is not the only way and as far as I'm concerned it solves nothing

Good for you, I don't think those people fighting revolutions as we speak actually care for your incoherent ranting.


as people die for something they dont believe in

Yes they do!

Those who fight with the revolution die for their communist/socialist beliefs and those defending the capitalist system die for their beliefs.

Communists and socialists have in most cases made an effort to minimise civilian casualties in revolutions. The deaths of innocent civilians usually can be attributed to the capitalist state. Yet the funny thing is you ask us to lay on our stomachs and give up resistance to the very system which does use violence every day against the innocent.


I see that as a cowardly way out.

Your statements reeking of pacifism and of giving up the struggle to compramise with our class enemy are acts of cowardice.

Don't lecture on others about cowardice when you yourself are one.


Surely it is better and benefits more if more people believe in the abolishment of a class system and everything else and consequently vote (in this slightly twisted electorial system) for this to happen?

NO!

I have already given you my arguements against reformism and so have others.

For heavens sake, stop asking the same pointless questions when people have told you the same answer.


JKP appears to believe in anarcho-communism and a stateless society?

It appears most RL members are generally speaking, anarcho-communist.

Great shame you are not, just a dull obselete reformist with rehashed out of date 'arguements' on elections.


We can only hope that that will never happen.

It has happened, open up and read any history book.

Chile 1973

Guatemela 1954

Dominican Republic 1965

Greneda 1983

Spain 1936-39


Unfortunately that is just it - hope. And hope never won a war or an election. Good luck to the world, but people will continue to hope.

And if you criticise those who seek revolution, only to tell us that 'hope' is all we have, then your a bigger idiot than I had thought.

Hope does FUCK ALL!


Call me a pacifist if you will,

Like all pacifists, I will call you an idiot.


but weapons will never help anyone.

Yes they do.

I would love you to tell that to someone who is fighting for their life against an opposing army or a woman who uses her personal pistol to shoot dead a rapist.

Weapons have on simple objective, kill those who would kill you to keep yourself alive.

So many people benefit from weapons.


Unfortunately we will never be able to completely do away with them.

GOOD!


Wishful thinking gets you nowhere really.

Thats because if your ideas are typical of wishful thinking, most people are intelligent to stay well clear from them.


I still dont see that an all-out revolution could ever work.

Thats because your an idiot.

[Correa]

Another reformist party as previously mentioned. I suppose if you are a Democratic Socialist this party would be appealing. However using "their" platform won't work. We must destroy the system and build a new one from scratch. If we play by "their" rules we will never have the upper hand.

[our_mutual_friend]

Cyber Communist?
Shut the hell up.
Do I go round shooting all your beliefs and arguments? No. I take them into account and compare them to my own, formulating new ideas and beliefs from new knowledge. It's a shame that some people are so bloody pig-headed and narrow-minded that they believe they are superior to every other person's beliefs.

I can take the rest, but I do not appreciate being called a coward.

I give up no struggle, but as see things as they are and I see that you are sadly deluded in what you believe. Good luck to you.

[Correa]

You make a great point. Read, analyze, and come to your own conclusion. Although I believe you will be a full blown communist by the time you are done. ;)

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by black banner black gun+Nov 27 2005, 06:20 AM--> (black banner black gun @ Nov 27 2005, 06:20 AM)
Diego [email protected] 26 2005, 01:57 PM
American Revolution?
I hate to nit-pick, but I would definitely not characterize the American "revolution" as anything even close to an all out revolution. [/b]
Indeed, the American Revolution was more of a group of merchants engaging in guirrella warfare with ties to a pseudo-army supported by the French. As for reformism I haven't seen anyone other than perhaps the self-proclaimed liberal advocating reformism.

[Cyber Communist]

Shut the hell up.

NO!

If you can't take criticism, get out of here, as I have my views criticsed and so do others.

The inability to take criticism is a sign of weakness in your beliefs and the way you debate them. Mind you, looking at the immature and sloppy methods and complete lack of evidence in any of your posts, that in no suprise to me at all.


Do I go round shooting all your beliefs and arguments?

Errr, No!

That is because you have not made any posts in response to mine beforehand!

You can't make exmaples and comparisons of things that did not take place.


No. I take them into account and compare them to my own, formulating new ideas and beliefs from new knowledge.

You did not display any of this in any of your posts on this thread.

Unless you can prove otherwise, Im sticking by my posts and comments.


It's a shame that some people are so bloody pig-headed and narrow-minded that they believe they are superior to every other person's beliefs.

And I suppose your neither "bloody pig-headed" or "narrow-minded"?

Well a look at one of your sentences will prove that you are both!


I see that you are sadly deluded in what you believe.

Such open midenedness on your part! :rolleyes:

At least I managed to put historical examples and made an effort to put forward why I think the way I do, in my posts.

I only see emotiaonal gut reactions towards pacifism in your posts.

No concrete arguement on why you hold the views you do.

And you have ignored any historical exmaples that I gave you on why pacifism is a complete waste of time.

I don't mind people who can put different views across if they make an effort to make some sense and provide a good back up with some evidence and base their views on factual data, none of which you have done.

If you want people to take a note of your arguement, give them good reason too, not make baseless comments about how it was not nice for the French arsitocracy to get their heads chopped off, without any explanation.

[/b][/quote]I can take the rest, but I do not appreciate being called a coward.


Can you take the rest?

Well instead of telling me to shut up, give some [b]answers to the points I made about pacifism, reformism and elections being an utter waste of time.

And you did label those who take to revolution as cowards.

Here is what you said:

[quote]But violence is not the only way and as far as I'm concerned it solves nothing as people die for something they dont believe in - not matyrdom, just plain terrors and massacres of oppostion. I see that as a cowardly way out.

So by your poor 'definition', class liberation or revolution is a 'cowardly way out'.

Don't label as cowards people who risk their lives for their own freedom, whther it be in Colombia, Iraq, Nepal, Turkey etc....

I don't see you risking your life for anything, like all those pacifists and hippies, just hiding their complete irrelevance behind psuedo-philosophical BS about the evils of violence.


Good luck to you.

Thanks but no thanks, Im not into superstition.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by Diego Armando+Nov 27 2005, 08:06 PM--> (Diego Armando @ Nov 27 2005, 08:06 PM)
Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 27 2005, 06:20 AM

Diego [email protected] 26 2005, 01:57 PM
American Revolution?
I hate to nit-pick, but I would definitely not characterize the American "revolution" as anything even close to an all out revolution.
Indeed, the American Revolution was more of a group of merchants engaging in guirrella warfare with ties to a pseudo-army supported by the French. As for reformism I haven't seen anyone other than perhaps the self-proclaimed liberal advocating reformism. [/b]
It was a beugoirse reovlution. It was progressive in the sense that it was the beggining of the emergence of a capitalist society in america, rather than the old one with ties to the feudal one in britain.

[BattleOfTheCowshed]

Bravo to Cyber Communism, a very eloquent defense/advocacy of using revolutionary methods to free humanity :) Hopefully the day of reformism has ended and the true class struggle can continue.

As for 'our mutual friend', I take it you are very young and have much to learn, hopefully you will stick around. However, I sense that you harbor a certain sense of, err, relativism I guess. Your pacifism and reformism seems to spring from a belief that all opinions and viewpoints should be accepted and debated but kept free from judgement. I fear that you will not find much sympathy for such views here. Many of us are members of the working class for whom Socialism is not only an ideal political model but a matter of personal/economic emancipation. Therefore the struggle for Communism/Anarchism/what-have-you is not a struggle to change the political system because we have arbitrarily decided that change is good; the class struggle is a real life-and-death matter for millions of people, in fact THE MAJORITY of the world. You will not find much sympathy for French royals or for the Tsar or for other people who spent their lifetimes exploiting and massacreing the masses for their own personal benefit. I would say, such people got what was coming to them :).

[Correa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 02:17 PM
Bravo to Cyber Communism, a very eloquent defense/advocacy of using revolutionary methods to free humanity :) Hopefully the day of reformism has ended and the true class struggle can continue.

As for 'our mutual friend', I take it you are very young and have much to learn, hopefully you will stick around. However, I sense that you harbor a certain sense of, err, relativism I guess. Your pacifism and reformism seems to spring from a belief that all opinions and viewpoints should be accepted and debated but kept free from judgement. I fear that you will not find much sympathy for such views here. Many of us are members of the working class for whom Socialism is not only an ideal political model but a matter of personal/economic emancipation. Therefore the struggle for Communism/Anarchism/what-have-you is not a struggle to change the political system because we have arbitrarily decided that change is good; the class struggle is a real life-and-death matter for millions of people, in fact THE MAJORITY of the world. You will not find much sympathy for French royals or for the Tsar or for other people who spent their lifetimes exploiting and massacreing the masses for their own personal benefit. I would say, such people got what was coming to them :).
Well said, well said.... :marx: :hammer: :engles:

[justice]

with my first post on this forum i would like to show my support for those advocating a non-violent approach to change. The revolution that needs to take place globally is within the minds of people; I can tell with certainty that an ak-47 is not an appropriate tool for changing someones mind. Rather knowledge is. If you truly have faith that a classless, socialist, or whatever other type of society you advocate is the "best" thing for the world, then you should also have faith that everyone, if given the truth would see things way.

Obviously, I understand that there are times when violence becomes neccassary. However, lashing out vengefully at those who have used the last 400 years toacquire personal wealth is not that time. As long as we have an oppurtunity to change the world without an ak, we should try to do it. In fact, people all over the world have fought and died for that oppurtunity specifically.

I would like to pose a question to all "the real communists" out there: Why do you support revolution?

I will give you my answer. I rebel for the people that I love. With that being said, I would not take the right to express themselves politically from the people. Elections are a popular acheivement of thousands of years. Revolution in the name of progress cannot take that away, or else it has lost its meaning. Great change is not only possible, it is garunteed. People are the power that will bring this change about; if people continue to live afraid of constant wars and violence then this change will be in a dark direction, towards a withdrawal from international communities, re-envigorated arms races, and eventual self destruction. Personally, I dont support this xenophobic vision of the world.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 09:17 PM
Bravo to Cyber Communism, a very eloquent defense/advocacy of using revolutionary methods to free humanity :) Hopefully the day of reformism has ended and the true class struggle can continue.

As for 'our mutual friend', I take it you are very young and have much to learn, hopefully you will stick around. However, I sense that you harbor a certain sense of, err, relativism I guess. Your pacifism and reformism seems to spring from a belief that all opinions and viewpoints should be accepted and debated but kept free from judgement. I fear that you will not find much sympathy for such views here. Many of us are members of the working class for whom Socialism is not only an ideal political model but a matter of personal/economic emancipation. Therefore the struggle for Communism/Anarchism/what-have-you is not a struggle to change the political system because we have arbitrarily decided that change is good; the class struggle is a real life-and-death matter for millions of people, in fact THE MAJORITY of the world. You will not find much sympathy for French royals or for the Tsar or for other people who spent their lifetimes exploiting and massacreing the masses for their own personal benefit. I would say, such people got what was coming to them :).
I'd agree with you except for the age thing. I'm younger than our mutual friend and yet have opinions that are similar to you.

In reply to justice. How do you hope to impose socialsim, without an armed working class? If there is a prtoaletarian reovlution in flow and the beugorise is using all it has at its desposal to stop us the last thing we need to be doing is running at them to tlak to them and convince them that actaully socoialism might be a good idea. Why would they think that? It goes against there class interest. Imagine if when the winter palace was being stormed lenin and trotsky had decided to convince the tsarists instead of fighting.

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by Clenched Fist+Nov 27 2005, 03:05 PM--> (Clenched Fist @ Nov 27 2005, 03:05 PM)
Originally posted by Diego [email protected] 27 2005, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 27 2005, 06:20 AM

Diego [email protected] 26 2005, 01:57 PM
American Revolution?
I hate to nit-pick, but I would definitely not characterize the American "revolution" as anything even close to an all out revolution.
Indeed, the American Revolution was more of a group of merchants engaging in guirrella warfare with ties to a pseudo-army supported by the French. As for reformism I haven't seen anyone other than perhaps the self-proclaimed liberal advocating reformism.
It was a beugoirse reovlution. It was progressive in the sense that it was the beggining of the emergence of a capitalist society in america, rather than the old one with ties to the feudal one in britain. [/b]
America didn't do away with feudalism until the American Civil War.

[JKP]

Read this:

Each link is different by the way.

http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.ph...rt_from=&ucat=& (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1082817374&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.ph...rt_from=&ucat=& (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1082987394&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.ph...rt_from=&ucat=& (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1083034613&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.ph...rt_from=&ucat=& (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1085538656&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.ph...rt_from=&ucat=& (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1092670396&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.ph...rt_from=&ucat=& (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1095195674&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.ph...rt_from=&ucat=& (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1098113614&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

[BattleOfTheCowshed]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 27 2005, 09:48 PM

I'd agree with you except for the age thing. I'm younger than our mutual friend and yet have opinions that are similar to you.


I am very young too! :) I did not mean to suggest that he was unknowledgable because he was young, merely that he was BOTH unknowledgable and young, and thus had lots of time to read and learn.

In response to 'Justice', I think you misunderstand our aims. The goal of Revolutionary Leftists is NOT to merely create some new political structure and force it on others. Our movement is based on the masses of workers, the poor, peasants, the oppressed around the world, only when their consciousness has reached revolutionary levels will one occur. In this scenario your question about forcing other people to submit to Communism with an AK-47 is irrelevant. Our struggle is not to conquer others, but to FREE OURSELVES, by any means necessary!

[enigma2517]

Why not harass the bourgeois even in their seats of power?

Because we don't have an infinite amount of time and energy. We have to focus on the things that actually work

[justice]

Our struggle is not to conquer others, but to FREE OURSELVES, by any means necessary!

A sucessful revolution is never fought for selfish purposes. A true revolutionary should have already freed him or herself. Freedom is a state of consciousness; once we have attained that state it is our responsibility to assist others in that process. A Revolutionary lives a selfless life.

Democracy is in fact a perfectly viable tool for the establishment of socialism. If a majority of people would vote for socialists, we would have our sollution. Holding on to stagnant ideologies (namely strict communism--marxism in particular) is actually a way of alienating and dividing those who would/should be allies in the struggle. The way forward (that is on the journey of human progress) is through compromise; it is through building unity of thought, not destroying those institutions we have built out of such unity.

Perhaps, if we were to focus our attention on electing these socialist leaders, and empowering ourselves through democratic means, and violent oppisition became apparent, it would be neccassary, as in venezeula to begin the process of preparation for a violent struggle. However, we (speaking to my countrymen in the US) are nowhere near this point in the struggle.



In reply to justice. How do you hope to impose socialsim, without an armed working class? If there is a prtoaletarian reovlution in flow and the beugorise is using all it has at its desposal to stop us the last thing we need to be doing is running at them to tlak to them and convince them that actaully socoialism might be a good idea. Why would they think that? It goes against there class interest. Imagine if when the winter palace was being stormed lenin and trotsky had decided to convince the tsarists instead of fighting.

As i have already explained: elect socialist leaders. There is no prolitariat revolution in flow; "talking" as you put it would not undermine any efforts being made currently. In fact it would be more proactive than anything going on now (again i speak to my countrymen) Also, if you think the rich are using every tool at their disposal to prevent us from rising you are gravely misinformed; the freedoms that we do have (although under attack) grant us great power, if we would pull our heads out of our ... and realize it. We are fortunate because we do represent the masses; in simple terms a majority of people. Its our own fault that the majority doesnt realize this. We have failed to teach them, inform them, and bring them the truth they need. Violent struggle is not going to convince them our way is better, because violence is not better.

Finally, the contemporary situation in America is not the Russian Revolution. In the case of Russia the revolution was being fought to unseat a deeply entrenched, and historically legitimated monarchy as well as to institute communism (in the case of the october revolution specifically).


To the rest of the world: I admit and concede that violence is probably neccassary. In my efforts to learn the truth in such matters my duties as a revolutionary will soon take me to Nepal a country which offers many lessons to those of us who would assist our brothers from other nations in their struggles. I will share with you all that I learn along the way.

If anyone reading this is from Nepal, I would greatly appreciate any advice, warnings, or information you think may be of service to me along the way.

Hasta victoria siempre....
Revolution.

Justice,
of the conscious army.

[Correa]

You're a Democratic Socialist. An ally none the less. Welcome.

[justice]

i try not to put boxes on myself or others, as long as you beleive that revolutionary change is in order i consider you an ally...at least until i get irritated ;)

thank you for the welcome.

[Cyber Communist]

A sucessful revolution is never fought for selfish purposes. A true revolutionary should have already freed him or herself. Freedom is a state of consciousness; once we have attained that state it is our responsibility to assist others in that process. A Revolutionary lives a selfless life.

This is abstract romanticism with no objective foundation to reality.

Im sorry but there is nothing wrong with being selfish, as without such a feeling, the human race would never advance beyond cavemen.

The working class acting together to overthrow their oppressors is a selfish act.

Communists are in favour of collective selfishness on behalf of the working class and their struggle for liberation.

Im not interested in abstract pie in the sky statements like your one above as they are based on no evidence or historical facts, no data to back it up. It is all just one long rant of incoherant unstable emotions and gut reactions.

Marxism bases it's observations as a social science, using emperical evidence and tried and tested formulas. We have no time for liberals with emotional porblems.

Also, freedom is very much an objective reality, not a state of mind.

A Jew in a Nazi concerntration camp could say in his mind that he was free, that means fuck all as the objective situation stands, he is still a prisoner waiting to be thrown into the gas chambers.


If a majority of people would vote for socialists, we would have our sollution.

You liberals/reformists/social democrats may have a misguided solution, but the working class would not.


Holding on to stagnant ideologies (namely strict communism--marxism in particular)

Then why are you here???

Go away and bother delusional liberals with your meaningless ranting and poor excuses at putting a so-called political belief system across.

RL is for communists and socialists, don't like it, that is not our problem.

The 4000 or so RL members are not going to change everything because a few reformists and delusional pacifists have decided to flood the forums with crappy, badly argued posts on their lack of faith in anything related to some kind of political reality.


The way forward (that is on the journey of human progress) is through compromise; it is through building unity of thought, not destroying those institutions we have built out of such unity.

That is the way forward for further oppression and misery.

You rally are stupid, more so than I could have thought of from a reformist.

Yes, Im sure those who suffer under capitalism would love to hold hands with their capitalist mass murdering masters and jump around on green hills under a rainbow in fields filled with cute little bunny rabbits! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Im sorry but anyone who says we should unite with our enemies for the greater good is worse than the actual enemy.


Its our own fault that the majority doesnt realize this. We have failed to teach them, inform them, and bring them the truth they need.

Wow!

You should of auditioned for the original Moses film, you seem to be way more suited as a prophet to the dumb masses than Charlton Heston was. :rolleyes:

Preaching and talking down to the working class, as if they were stupid animals is not the best way to get their support.

I take it you have never worked in nor will ever work in any job that involves having good social skills.


Hasta victoria siempre....
Revolution.

How cute!

Another person who is nothing but a reformist with no knowledge of the class struggle, communism, socialism, capitalism, history etc... yet tries to look cool by using Che as some accessory to his own identity.

Well rest assured the likes of Che Guervara would turn in their grave to see reformists such as yourself using the far left to push your obselete reformism and abstract hippy values on the rest of us.

[justice]

As for revolutions and selflesness:

Alexandra Kollontai describes women in the october revolution marching "selflessly"

An Iranian explains “Revolution means selflessness. This is exactly what was prevalent in the streets of the capital in 1979. People gave blood for the ones injured and nobody had what-is-in-it-for-me type of attitude either,“ he said.
While I understand that Iran is far from perfect, the sentiment here is the one I was trying to communicate: Those geurillas on the frontlines dying dont do it for themselves. they do it for the people they love. this is in fact selflessness.

If Iranian Revolutionaries and "heros" of the october revolution are too romanitsized for this forum, I apologize. just remember, a revolution is fought for the people. Name one revolutionary who fought for "him/her" self?

This concept ties very much into the next topic i wish to adress: the idea of freedom being a state of consciousness. First of all, it is impossible for you to objectively tell me what freedom is. Freedom is a complex concept and the most you can do is tell me how you understand it.

To me freedom is having the oppurtunity to know oneself, (ie being free from basic survival needs--knowing that you are likely to eat a meal tommorow, that you have the sufficient shelter you need, and clean water, etc) so that you can figure out who you are and be that without persecution (this ties into freedom of beleif and of expression but also includes social freedoms). If you are allowed to know and be yourself it is likely that you will enjoy yourself; after all, deep down many of us are good people. Once we have personal freedom taken care of we look at the greater picture: structural impediments to other people being free. This is what revolution is fought against. First we build a foundation of revolutions that take care of survival needs: the agricultural revolution, and to some extent the industrial revolution. Then we will fight political revolutions, so that people may be and express themselves freely. Today a revolutionary is natural oriented towards overthrowing the imperialist powers, as they are the ones telling people to be other than they are.



Preaching and talking down to the working class, as if they were stupid animals is not the best way to get their support.

The last thing I would ever do is talk down to an individual who represents the working class. In fact the first thing I would do is listen to them. I would try and understand the way they saw the world and their interests. Through genuine conversation carried out respectfully, I think it would be possible to find enough commonalities between myself and them to build a relationship and move forward with creating change.

As a quick addition to this statement, I have made somewhat of a life of listening to the worlds working class; I have had extensive conversations with the worlds poor in many American cities, as well as throughout China, Southern India, and Jordan/West Bank, and Egypt. I have to inform you that very few of them support vio,lent sollutions to the worlds problems. Violence leads to one thing: more of the same, and this knowledge is quite widespread.



Im sorry but anyone who says we should unite with our enemies for the greater good is worse than the actual enemy.

I never said we should unite with our enemies. Rather we should take care to unite our allies. The truth of the matter is that the number of people who have a genuine interest in maintaing the status quo is quite minimal; accordingly all the rest of us are potential allies in revolution. As i have said, through knowledge and truth we can unify a greamt many people. However, it is my experience in the world (of which I do have some) that strict communism is almost as popular an idea as neo liberal capitalism. Only not quite...sorry, but to me it seems better to move forward than to try and force an unpopular ideology on the world violently.


why are you here???
I am here because I thought this was where we came together to discuss how we can build a better tommorow through revolutionary action.


I take it you have never worked in nor will ever work in any job that involves having good social skills.

I wonder if this response is an example of social skills I should learn from?


Also, freedom is very much an objective reality, not a state of mind.

Finally, Maybe you could tell me what this objective state of reality is?

Seunos fe justicia.

ps. i took great care to respond to you in a responsible manner. it is easy to resort to insulting anothers knowledge, or to say there is something wrong with the other. It is difficult, but much more rewarding and valuable to actually engage what a person has said.

[justice]

Ps. I just stumbled across an interesting description of the cuban revolutionaries:

" there burned in the hearts and minds of all who took part, a flame of idealism, patriotism, selflessness, courage and loyalty toward their country."

the emphasis was mine...

[Cyber Communist]

ps. i took great care to respond to you in a responsible manner. it is easy to resort to insulting anothers knowledge, or to say there is something wrong with the other. It is difficult, but much more rewarding and valuable to actually engage what a person has said.

I have no issue with debating with opponents, be they capitalist, fascist or reformist.

I just ask that they make an intelligent arugement based on facts, as Im not interested in peoples emotional responses or their idealised utopias.

The first post I responded to sounded to airy fairy, without any facts or historical expamples of why you support reform. I can't really give too much sysmpathy for those people becuase they should know better or at least make a better effort to put their own point of view across.

Someone who just says we are all humans and all humans regardless of class should put their differences aside and bring world peace is an idiot and I won't shy away from saying the obvious.

As for some other areas, I can see I did not understand what you really meant as you were unable to put your point clearly and made it confusing, in particular your bit about uniting with the enemy and building upon existing institutions.

However, Ill still disagree with the general points of your post, to which Ill respond tomorrow, as Im going offline now.

[Correa]

You will find life as a Democratic Socialist could be tough at times here at Rev Left. I think you have good intentions although I disagree with your methods. Keep in mind that you DO belong here, we are not into the business of scaring away curious moderate leftist, but at the same time people are brutally honest.

[justice]

I am fine with a tough life....in fact i embrace it. Thank you for your comment...I will work on my methods, and do my best to maintain myself as a respectful and responsible member of this community.

To continue this conversation I would like to state something I find quite obvious:
Anyone who says we are anything but human according to our class is an idiot. Certainly in life there will develop great differences in humans; however these differences dont undo the ultimate truth that we are all human.


Holding on to stagnant ideologies (namely strict communism--marxism in particular) is actually a way of alienating and dividing those who would/should be allies in the struggle. The way forward (that is on the journey of human progress) is through compromise; it is through building unity of thought, not destroying those institutions we have built out of such unity.

Just for clarities sake I would like to look at the original post; no where in the statement does it mention enemies and compromise; the topic was clearly allies in revolution, and moving forward with revolution by not alienating those who should be allies in the struggle.


I am saddened by the fact that you consider me an opponenet; it is this sentiment exactly which frightens me most about any real advance in my lifetime. We are obviously on the same side. We love the working people of the world, and want to see their quality of life improve; we are committed to that, and will do whatever is neccassary. We are rebels against an imperalist system of perverted capitalism.

Correa, it is comments like yours which strengthen my beleif that we can make actual differences in my lifetime.


respect.
--justice

[Correa]

I say we unite to bring the capitalist pigs down! There are bigger fish to fry than fellow leftist. I think we agree that capitalism must come to an end more than we disagree on how to do it. Does that make sense?

[justice]

that makes perfect sense. fry the big fish and we eat for weeks...

[our_mutual_friend]

Justice - i applaud your strength of will and resiliance to oppostion.
I thank Correa for his positive commentary and realistic attitude.
I apologise to Cyber Communist for resorting in my anger to insult him in the spite of his own posting, but I still stand by what I said.
I also apologise to this whole thread for not having succint enough arguments that are not always based in historical fact (or at least historical facts that I am aware of) and for letting my own personal beliefs and emotions control arguments that should be made dispassionately, using cold hard facts and figures.

:huh:

I apologise for my youth and ignorance on matters of historical/philosophical/political nature, but I am what I am and I can but learn - that is why I am here; in order to learn more about what I am interested in, despite being of moderate left liberal democratic inclination. I feel that my beliefs belong in no category but my own and I wish people like Cyber Communist to respect that, as well as giving me a chance to speak for myself and attempt to see where my political stance lies in the future.

But I still hold to what I say, because I believe in them, even if no one else does and there is nothing to back it up except for my own opinons. Respect that, please.

[farleft]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 12:14 PM
Justice - i applaud your strength of will and resiliance to oppostion.
I thank Correa for his positive commentary and realistic attitude.
I apologise to Cyber Communist for resorting in my anger to insult him in the spite of his own posting, but I still stand by what I said.
I also apologise to this whole thread for not having succint enough arguments that are not always based in historical fact (or at least historical facts that I am aware of) and for letting my own personal beliefs and emotions control arguments that should be made dispassionately, using cold hard facts and figures.

:huh:

I apologise for my youth and ignorance on matters of historical/philosophical/political nature, but I am what I am and I can but learn - that is why I am here; in order to learn more about what I am interested in, despite being of moderate left liberal democratic inclination. I feel that my beliefs belong in no category but my own and I wish people like Cyber Communist to respect that, as well as giving me a chance to speak for myself and attempt to see where my political stance lies in the future.

But I still hold to what I say, because I believe in them, even if no one else does and there is nothing to back it up except for my own opinons. Respect that, please.
For a communist it's hard to respect a liberal reformist.

RevLeft is a communist forum, communists believe that capitalism cannot be reformed into socialism or communism; it must be destroyed and replaced.

It would be wonderful if this could be done via peaceful means but it CANT this may be hard to deal with but its the way it has to be.

If your interested in learning more about communism, id suggest you check out RedStar2000 Papers (there's a link in my sig, communism made easy).

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

And besides, it's called RevolutionaryLeft.com, not ReformistLeft.com...

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 09:07 PM
You cannot be non-violent in the most violent society ever created.
A statement like that only alienates the working class

[JKP]

Originally posted by Rage Against The Machine+Nov 28 2005, 07:42 AM--> (Rage Against The Machine @ Nov 28 2005, 07:42 AM)
[email protected] 26 2005, 09:07 PM
You cannot be non-violent in the most violent society ever created.
A statement like that only alienates the working class [/b]
Not really.

I'm just being honest.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 01:10 AM
[


In reply to justice. How do you hope to impose socialsim, without an armed working class? If there is a prtoaletarian reovlution in flow and the beugorise is using all it has at its desposal to stop us the last thing we need to be doing is running at them to tlak to them and convince them that actaully socoialism might be a good idea. Why would they think that? It goes against there class interest. Imagine if when the winter palace was being stormed lenin and trotsky had decided to convince the tsarists instead of fighting.

As i have already explained: elect socialist leaders. There is no prolitariat revolution in flow; "talking" as you put it would not undermine any efforts being made currently. In fact it would be more proactive than anything going on now (again i speak to my countrymen) Also, if you think the rich are using every tool at their disposal to prevent us from rising you are gravely misinformed; the freedoms that we do have (although under attack) grant us great power, if we would pull our heads out of our ... and realize it. We are fortunate because we do represent the masses; in simple terms a majority of people. Its our own fault that the majority doesnt realize this. We have failed to teach them, inform them, and bring them the truth they need. Violent struggle is not going to convince them our way is better, because violence is not better.

Finally, the contemporary situation in America is not the Russian Revolution. In the case of Russia the revolution was being fought to unseat a deeply entrenched, and historically legitimated monarchy as well as to institute communism (in the case of the october revolution specifically).


To the rest of the world: I admit and concede that violence is probably neccassary. In my efforts to learn the truth in such matters my duties as a revolutionary will soon take me to Nepal a country which offers many lessons to those of us who would assist our brothers from other nations in their struggles. I will share with you all that I learn along the way.

If anyone reading this is from Nepal, I would greatly appreciate any advice, warnings, or information you think may be of service to me along the way.

Hasta victoria siempre....
Revolution.

Justice,
of the conscious army.
I don't think that it's a simple case of an election victory. If the working class did ever actually go out and elect a socialist parliment do you think the establishement would jsut apack up and say tally ho chaps you can take power now to the working class?

It will probably take struggle with the ruling class; the heads of buissness, the tops of the church, possibly even the tops of the monarchy and hte house of lords. If we get a socialist paliment that will only be half the battle. Look at venezuela, there is a socialsit parlmient there but it is taking more struggle and an armed working class to really get what they want through, as well as a left wing parliment.

[justice]

I don't think that it's a simple case of an election victory. If the working class did ever actually go out and elect a socialist parliment do you think the establishement would jsut apack up and say tally ho chaps you can take power now to the working class?

no but as i explained earlier it is certainly a good place to start. after we have tried that, and our democratically sollution is attacked i will gladly support, join, orchestrate the defense of that sollution by any means neccassary. I merely beleive violence to be an ultimate tool; death is an ultimate end. Accordingly, i think it would be irresponsible to assume that revolution must be violent, and even moreso to engage in violent revolution without first exploring other avenues.

i also would like to make it quite cleare that i am not a reformist. i do not wish to reform a global system of capitalism; capitalism is a failed ideology. after enjoying decades of hegemony over the worlds development we are left in a dismal state.

However, i do not see the idea of democracy and capitalism as being integrally linked. Capitalism and Freedom, by milton freidman is a good book to read if you want to know the exact opposite of what i beleive. Capitalism has proven itself a destructive force for humanity.

I am committed to doing what i can to overcome this scourge on humanity. i just happen to beleive that people will support our cause if we educate them, and listen to them, and communicate with them. accordingly i seek ways to increase my knowledge and share with others.



And besides, it's called RevolutionaryLeft.com, not ReformistLeft.com...

violence does not equal a revolution. please also refer to Correa's posts...

Respect to you all

Justice.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 04:00 AM

And besides, it's called RevolutionaryLeft.com, not ReformistLeft.com...

violence does not equal a revolution. please also refer to Correa's posts...

Respect to you all

Justice.

And revolution does not equal voting in the very systems we seek to destroy!

Don't any of you reformist twits understand the ultimately self-defeating nature of using capitalism to abolish capitalism?

[bolshevik butcher]

To dismiss parliment completely is also foolsih, it can be used as a propoganda platofrm, and a place to try and thrash through some positive reforms. But as already stated, you cannot create socialsim within the current apparatus.

[Poum_1936]

As a member of the Peace and Freedom Party I have no faith in them that they will bring anything meaningful about. But there are leftists in the party you can work with and organize with and make connections with. Waste of time?

[FleasTheLemur]

Pas de replâtrage, la structure est pourrie.
No replastering, the structure is rotten.

[justice]

Don't any of you reformist twits understand the ultimately self-defeating nature of using capitalism to abolish capitalism?

how is voting using capitalism to abolish capitalism? voting is using "democracy" to abolish capitalism. one is an economic system the other political.

certainlythe american democracy has given birth to many specific policies which have strengthened and developed the capitalistic world system we have, but there is no reason why it couldnt also be used to empower policies which did the opposite.

[wet blanket]

Originally posted by black banner black gun+Nov 27 2005, 12:26 PM--> (black banner black gun @ Nov 27 2005, 12:26 PM)
Diego [email protected] 26 2005, 01:57 PM
American Revolution?
I hate to nit-pick, but I would definitely not characterize the American "revolution" as anything even close to an all out revolution. [/b]
:lol: What? From a historical perspective, the american revolution was the most successful bourgeois revolution in history. It was no proletarian revolutions, but even Marx recognized the success of bourgeois revolutions.

Anyway, the peace and freedom party is a joke filled with cadres who feel they're making a difference by waving signs and voting.


how is voting using capitalism to abolish capitalism? voting is using "democracy" to abolish capitalism. one is an economic system the other political.

certainlythe american democracy has given birth to many specific policies which have strengthened and developed the capitalistic world system we have, but there is no reason why it couldnt also be used to empower policies which did the opposite.
There are plenty of reasons why bourgeois democracy in the united states could never be used to abolish capitalism. The military-industrial-complex, for example, is the biggest part of our economy... we're talking billions of dollars and an established war-industry which millions of americans depend on for work. Do you think we can vote someone into office and have anything done about this? Do you think that there's anything a president, senator, or member of congress could do to end the wage and profit systems on which almost every business is built upon?
There is no way that this could be stopped through participation in the political system, and I really don't think anyone with even the slightest understanding of how the economy functions and the actual scale of these issues really believes that anything could be accomplished by participation in the system. The only way anything can get done is outright refusal and active, organized resistance(civil whenever possible, violent when necessary).

... but it's much easier to just punch a hole in the ballot, put it in the box, and tell yourself that you're making a difference without much effort, all this revolution business is pretty uncertain and discomforting right?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 08:48 AM

Don't any of you reformist twits understand the ultimately self-defeating nature of using capitalism to abolish capitalism?

how is voting using capitalism to abolish capitalism? voting is using "democracy" to abolish capitalism. one is an economic system the other political.

certainlythe american democracy has given birth to many specific policies which have strengthened and developed the capitalistic world system we have, but there is no reason why it couldnt also be used to empower policies which did the opposite.
It's quite simple really - corporations like Halliburton that depend on government power simply won't allow it.

[justice]

It's quite simple really - corporations like Halliburton that depend on government power simply won't allow it.

When the time comes that halliburton rises to violently attack a democratic sollution to the capitalism we have in america, i am prepared to violently respond. but we should at least try. The point remains that this post did not answer the question: how is voting using capitalism to abolish capitalism?


millions of americans depend on for work
this is a very important issue. the truth is that whether or not a sollution comes through voting or violent revolution we will still have to overcome the military industrial complex and the restructuring of economic arrangments (obviously). at least if we managed to do it non violently we would still have the infrastructure intact to assist us in this process. and we would avoid alienating the many millions of working people who would resist violence.

fighting a violent revolution does nothing to change the nature of the difficulties we would face in abolishing capitalism. it merely exacerbates them.


Do you think that there's anything a president, senator, or member of congress could do to end the wage and profit systems on which almost every business is built upon?


I do not think that a single person would have the power to actually bring the change about; however, one of the most important powers elected leaders have in our country is the power to set the agenda: to decide what gets talked about. the more we can talk about the ideas that we beleive to be true (in the simplest of forms, our opposition to capitalism) the more people will hear of them. I truly beleive that there are few, if any, working class people who would oppose revolution away from capitalism if they understood what we stand for. the more discussion of this that can take place in mainstream arenas the better off our cause is.


... but it's much easier to just punch a hole in the ballot, put it in the box, and tell yourself that you're making a difference without much effort, all this revolution business is pretty uncertain and discomforting right?

By no means do i think voting is the only thing we should be doing. nor is it the only thing i am doing. It is stupid to think that democracy must go along with capitalism. it is also stupid to remove democracy from the tools we seek to use. revolution is uncertain, but it is by no means discomforting. My life is forever the peoples. I will do whatever whenever i can to help all of the people in the world progress; moving away from capatilism is deffinitely progress. I am just not convinced that our continued understanding of violence as being anything but a last resort is progress.