Name A Successful Communist Country

[armyman]

Really, because i am having a hard time finding one China is no longer really communist as they have had to adapt to the world market. So anyone got one? That hasn't killed millions of people or commited mass murder or squash human rights? I can find many defunct communist states however.

[CCCPneubauten]

Because China was really communist.... :rolleyes:

:lol:

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

A communist state is an oxymoron.

[More Fire for the People]

Cuba
The Soviet Union (1917-1956)
China (1945-1976)
And many other governments.

[armyman]

Cuba
The Soviet Union (1917-1956)
China (1945-1976)

I said SUCCESSFUL what part of that word do you not understand? I also said ones that have not murdered people in the billions.

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 06:00 PM

Cuba
The Soviet Union (1917-1956)
China (1945-1976)

I said SUCCESSFUL what part of that word do you not understand? I also said ones that have not murdered people in the billions.
Yes, none of those countries have murdered billions of people.

[armyman]

A communist state is an oxymoron.

technically.



Because China was really communist.

I don't care about emoticons........

I said name ONE if you can't shut up and leave space for people that might be able to.

[armyman]

Yes, none of those countries have murdered billions of people

*sigh* Don't get pissy.

Cuba is not SUCCESSFUL my frontlawn has more culture and technoloy then that whole 3rd world shit hole. Russia was not SUCCESSFUL either otherwise the USSR would still be around. Both China and Russia killed millions of people.

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 06:08 PM

Yes, none of those countries have murdered billions of people

*sigh* Don't get pissy.

Cuba is not SUCCESSFUL my frontlawn has more culture and technoloy then that whole 3rd world shit hole. Russia was not SUCCESSFUL either otherwise the USSR would still be around. Both China and Russia killed millions of people.
Cuba has the most advanced health care in the world. There living standards however are only slightly better than other Latin American countries due to the US embargo and the loss of major trading partners — the Soviet Union and Central Europe.


Russia was not SUCCESSFUL either otherwise the USSR would still be around.
Russia collapsed under the pro-capitalist regime of Gorbachev, but the downfall began with the rise of the capitalist-roader Kruschev.


Both China and Russia killed millions of people.
No they haven’t or at least not in the sense you’re implying.

[armyman]

Cuba has the most advanced health care in the world. There living standards however are only slightly better than other Latin American countries due to the US embargo and the loss of major trading partners — the Soviet Union and Central Europe.

I have travlled all over the world mainly Europe, and to Australia. Australia seems to have the best healthcare system in the world. Maybe it has the best in Latin America. But the people live in piss poor slums whats the point of having the best healthcare if you can die from a common cold? while still having to watch out for the "black death" Also i doubt a doctor from Cuba would be trianed as well as a doctor from Europe. Even if there was no embargo Cuba would still be a 3rd world shit hole like all the other latin american countries.


Russia collapsed under the pro-capitalist regime of Gorbachev, but the downfall began with the rise of the capitalist-roader Kruschev.

Russia collapsed because it was communist. Want a comparison East and West Germany why did people build tunnels to try and escape if communism is soooo great?(how embarassing that was for Russia) Why is East Germany still poor compared to West Germany? why is it a breeding ground for neo nazi's?


No they haven’t or at least not in the sense you’re implying.

http://www.freedomsnest.com/rummel_prc.html

Includes 15,700,000 killed in Chinese concentration camps.

These totals do not include the 27,000,000 people who starved to death due to Mao's mismanagement of Chinese agriculture in the early 1960s. This was the worst famine in human history, and it was caused entirely, though not deliberately, by politicians.

Additionally, there is the difficult question of involuntary abortion, of children desired by the parents, at the behest of the state or its agents. Whether the killing of a foetus is murder, and if not, whether it becomes murder when done against the mother's will, is the problem. It is not clear if these abortions should be included in the democide totals.

But one may consider that Chinese abortions are often administered by allowing the mother to go through labor, then crushing the child's skull with forceps as it is being born. This seems quite a bit like murder. Additionally, there have been numerous reports of infants being murdered following birth. Infanticide is not the official policy of Communist China. It is, however, the actual policy, official denials not withstanding.

The number of deaths resulting from coerced abortions and infanticide since 1971 is estimated at over 110 million, making this perhaps the greatest crime in all of history.

[armyman]

The first indication of things to come were the dogs running amok who greeted us upon our arrival at the hospital entrance. We were taken upstairs to the tourist ward, a segregated unit of the facility. My son and I were the sole foreigners registered. The surgeon on duty examined my son and ordered an ultrasound and x-ray.

We went through these paces, and then the English-speaking nurse, Betty, attempted to connect an IV to my son's arm. After a considerable ordeal involving several nurses, they managed to connect it in his wrist. The tube was so taut that my son couldn't move his arm a fraction of an inch. We settled in at about midnight and tried to get some sleep. My son awoke at about 3 am with the IV tube disconnected, his sheets covered with blood. I got up and tried to find the nurse. When I went out into the darkened corridor, there was no one in sight. I called out for the nurse, but she was asleep in another room.

I awoke to learn that plans were made to transfer my son to the pediatric hospital across town. I saw nurses smoking in the hallway where we were and thought that the conditions at the pediatric hospital would improve.

I was also getting very concerned because insurance policies are strict about making contact with them to obtain approval for the green light to proceed with these types of plans. I was attempting to make phone calls from the hospital to do just that, but I couldn't get through. It's difficult to get phone calls through at even the best of times from Cuba, and in the meantime the office manager was getting very insistent about how I would pay. They then contacted the Canadian Counsel in Varadero who said she would meet me at the pediatric hospital.

Finally at noon, we were transferred to the pediatric hospital and were once again greeted by dogs running wild. The atmosphere inside the hospital was bedlam and my son was becoming increasingly distressed. Two English-speaking specialists examined him and concluded that he might have acute appendicitis, which required immediate exploratory surgery with the laparoscope. I was stricken with horror but tried to stay calm because my son was so distressed. The conditions in that building were more suitable for a minimum security prison than a pediatric hospital. My mind was racing because I didn't feel competent to challenge the doctors, and I knew what the consequences might be if my son did in fact have appendicitis, and I didn't allow them to follow through with their procedure.

I went into the small OR with the assembled group of physicians, who proceeded with their task without surgical gloves, hospital gowns, etc. They told me that if he had AA they would take out his appendix right then and that in turn would require a one-week recuperation period in the hospital. This was Wednesday and our flight home was Saturday; I still hadn't contacted the insurance company about any of this. My guardian angel appeared during that harrowing surgery--the Canadian Counsel, who, it turned out, was very experienced in assisting Canadians who get into these tight spots while in Cuba. After the procedure, they transferred my son and I upstairs to a dingy room, and we settled in for the rest of the day and night. The Counsel took charge of everything concerning our flight and the insurance company (thank heaven she had a cell phone).

The upstairs ward was so grimly depressing that it is difficult to describe it. It was an experience that my son and I will never forget -- not only for our own discomfort, but also for our first-hand witnessing of the hospital conditions (and a pediatric one at that) in a developing country. Our room was invaded by fruit flies; the food was inedible, and the bathroom was unsanitary. I asked for a bandage for my son’s arm when they took out the IV and was informed that none was available.

LoL Yeah thats the great Cuban Healthcare system i am going to fly over there next time i get sick.

[More Fire for the People]

I have travlled all over the world mainly Europe, and to Australia. Australia seems to have the best healthcare system in the world. Maybe it has the best in Latin America. But the people live in piss poor slums whats the point of having the best healthcare if you can die from a common cold? while still having to watch out for the "black death" Also i doubt a doctor from Cuba would be trianed as well as a doctor from Europe. Even if there was no embargo Cuba would still be a 3rd world shit hole like all the other latin american countries.
No Cuban dies because of the common cold. Cuba has the most advanced health care in the world and doctors. Cuban doctors are well known international doctors known for their care, compassion, efficiency, and quality.

Information:
Cuban Infant mortality rate: 5.8
US infant mortality rate: 7

Cuban persons per doctor: 290
US persons per doctor: 470

Cuban hospital beds per person: 200
US hospital beds per person: 280

*Cuba is among the top five Latin American countries in protein and calorie intake.
*The Cubans have built formidable pharmaceutical, genetic engineering and biotechnology industries, and have twenty scientific research centers investigating products from inexpensive pharmaceuticals to "green medicine."

Source (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/cuba/index.html)


Russia collapsed because it was communist. Want a comparison East and West Germany why did people build tunnels to try and escape if communism is soooo great?(how embarassing that was for Russia) Why is East Germany still poor compared to West Germany? why is it a breeding ground for neo nazi's?
Post-1956 Russia was more or less communist in word and capitalist in deed. East Germany is poorer than West Germany because it is West Germany’s neo-colony.


These totals do not include the 27,000,000 people who starved to death due to Mao's mismanagement of Chinese agriculture in the early 1960s. This was the worst famine in human history, and it was caused entirely, though not deliberately, by politicians.
Why are you blaming Mao? Individuals do not make history. Besides this number seems to be blown way out of proportion. Besides a famine was predicted anyways -- the famine that did happen was probably a lot less worse than a famine under a capitalist regime in China.

[Publius]

Cuba has the most advanced health care in the world.

Care to re-phrase that?

[Delirium]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 01:41 AM

Cuba has the most advanced health care in the world.

Care to re-phrase that?
Cuba has the most accesable healthcare system in the world. Not advanced, that would probably be the US but do to our wonderful system only for those who have large amounts of gold stashed in thier bungholes.

Can we ban this armyman jackass? he is obviously not trying to have a intelligent or even civil discussion.

[ReD_ReBeL]

just imagine how much better Cuba would be if there wasnt blockades against thm WOW lol would be something, anyway wen Revolutionary Cuba was at its lowest point i bet it could of been preventable if the US lifted the blockade, just imagine the unnecesarily death and desease and struggle the US have given Cuba all over an Ideology which wants to favour all of man and not just a few of man, kinda evil aint it

[CCCPneubauten]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 12:05 AM

A communist state is an oxymoron.

technically.



Because China was really communist.

I don't care about emoticons........

I said name ONE if you can't shut up and leave space for people that might be able to.
So...I just proved your question makes no sense, and yet you just get pissed....great job!

Cuba, Russia, China, none were communist, but Cuba has come close to socliasm.

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by armyman
Includes 15,700,000 killed in Chinese concentration camps.

These totals do not include the 27,000,000 people who starved to death due to Mao's mismanagement of Chinese agriculture in the early 1960s. This was the worst famine in human history, and it was caused entirely, though not deliberately, by politicians.

Additionally, there is the difficult question of involuntary abortion, of children desired by the parents, at the behest of the state or its agents. Whether the killing of a foetus is murder, and if not, whether it becomes murder when done against the mother's will, is the problem. It is not clear if these abortions should be included in the democide totals.

But one may consider that Chinese abortions are often administered by allowing the mother to go through labor, then crushing the child's skull with forceps as it is being born. This seems quite a bit like murder. Additionally, there have been numerous reports of infants being murdered following birth. Infanticide is not the official policy of Communist China. It is, however, the actual policy, official denials not withstanding.

The number of deaths resulting from coerced abortions and infanticide since 1971 is estimated at over 110 million, making this perhaps the greatest crime in all of history.

Erm.


Because China was really communist.

That was one of the first responses.

Perhaps operating a computer is too much of a strain for you?

[Comrade Hector]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 11:50 PM
Really, because i am having a hard time finding one China is no longer really communist as they have had to adapt to the world market. So anyone got one? That hasn't killed millions of people or commited mass murder or squash human rights? I can find many defunct communist states however.
There has never been a Communist country. "Communist state" is a contradictory phrase created in the capitalist world.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 12:31 AM

<snip>

LoL Yeah thats the great Cuban Healthcare system i am going to fly over there next time i get sick.
Could you care to actually post the source of that?

[Tungsten]

Diego Armando

No Cuban dies because of the common cold. Cuba has the most advanced health care in the world and doctors. Cuban doctors are well known international doctors known for their care, compassion, efficiency, and quality.

Information:
Cuban Infant mortality rate: 5.8
US infant mortality rate: 7

Cuban persons per doctor: 290
US persons per doctor: 470

Cuban hospital beds per person: 200
US hospital beds per person: 280

*Cuba is among the top five Latin American countries in protein and calorie intake.
*The Cubans have built formidable pharmaceutical, genetic engineering and biotechnology industries, and have twenty scientific research centers investigating products from inexpensive pharmaceuticals to "green medicine."

Source (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/cuba/index.html)
Castro is obviously a man who takes good care of his slaves.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Well, shit, you&#39;ve just earned you&#39;re first warning point for pointless spamming. Unless you care to actually demonstrate that the citizens of Cuba are all slaves.

[armyman]

can we ban this armyman jackass? he is obviously not trying to have a intelligent or even civil discussion.

Cry me a river asswart. I am asking a valid question and none of you are answering it i said name a SUCCESSFUL communist country, name one one that under communist rule has become better. NAME ONE. Also this is Opposing views you don&#39;t like my opposing veiw so you want to ban me?

How very communist of you.


There has never been a Communist country. "Communist state" is a contradictory phrase created in the capitalist world.

Then why did the above poster say Cuba, China and Russia if there never has been a country that has lived under communist rule. I think you are talking about that there is supposed to be no class under communism well guess what buddy there is and there would be.

Like i said i have been to Europe i have talked to people who have lived through communist regimes and NOT ONE OF THEM HAS SAID IT WAS A HAPPY LOVELY PLACE TO LIVE NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON. ONE MAN EVEN STARTED TO CRY WHEN I TALKED TO HIM ABOUT IT.

But for some reason you little punks who have never worked a day in your life and never lived under it seem to get a boner over communism. Working in the service industry doesn&#39;t count either.


Post-1956 Russia was more or less communist in word and capitalist in deed. East Germany is poorer than West Germany because it is West Germany’s neo-colony.

People were leaving BEFORE 1956 infact in the 1940&#39;s they were escaping.


Could you care to actually post the source of that?

No i was just googling around and i found it you can have another one however with source:


VILLA CLARA, May 30 (Omar Ruiz Hernández, Grupo Decoro / www.cubanet.org) - A number of expectant mothers waiting to give birth in the Matagua rural hospital recently threatened to walk out en masse to protest what they called poor conditions at the facility.

The women cited poor food and massive leaks through the ceilings.

"It was impossible to stay inside May 21 because water leaked freely through the roof," said Dr. Ismeli Iglesias, who was on duty that day.

The patients protested and were ready to discharge themselves until the hospital director managed to dissuade them.

The director accused Dr. Iglesias of siding with the patients, and threatened to impose administrative sanctions.

Next day, Dr. Iglesias went to the municipal Communisty Party office and demanded to see the first secretary, Jorge Hurtado Mena, but was told the official was not in.

Dr. Iglesias sat down on the curb across from the office, until the official heard him. Hurtado registered the physician&#39;s complaints, and promised to answer them within 48 hours. So far, Dr. Iglesias has not heard back from him.




WELL WELL WELL

LOOKY WHAT I FOUND HERE TIME TO DEBUNK YOUR SO CALLED GREAT CUBAN HEALTHCARE MYTH.

http://www.cubacenter.org/media/news_artic...olutionary.php3 (http://www.cubacenter.org/media/news_articles/revolutionary.php3)


Want a Radical Face Lift? Try Revolutionary Cuba

The Wall Street Journal
January 21, 2000

"Cuban pediatric care, including a low infant-mortality rate, was once a much heralded achievement of Castro&#39;s revolution--despite evidence that the mortality rate was low mainly as a consequence of the high abortion rate of high-risk pregnancies."

Retired Argentine soccer super star Diego Maradona arrived in Havana on Tuesday, reportedly on his way to a drug treatment center in the eastern city of Holguin. Mr. Maradona, who has a history of drug and alcohol abuse said, "I trust Cuban medicine and I know they will cure me."

Mr. Maradona&#39;s confidence in Cuba&#39;s medical system just doesn&#39;t square with what official political and business visitors to Cuba, who get government "tours" of the country&#39;s hospitals, have been reporting about the Cuban health-care system. Consider Illinois Gov. George Ryan&#39;s autumn tour of Havana&#39;s William Soler Pediatric Hospital. Mr. Ryan was so shaken by the hospital&#39;s deplorable conditions that after the visit he blamed the US embargo of Cuba for shortages of medical supplies and announced a donation of &#036;1 million worth of medicine from Illinois-based pharmaceutical companies.

Indeed, what: Mr. Ryan saw was horrible. In February 1998, The Washington Post reported that: Cubans endure "hospital hallways ... dark for lack of light bulbs" and "hospitalization [which] is now risky because of the increased chance of infection; in 1995 dirty water in hospitals led to infection outbreaks that killed 60 patients and sickened another 289. "

So how do we reconcile the fact that one of the greatest soccer sensations in history is heading for Cuban health care? The answer is found in the fact that: there are now two different Cuban health-care systems, one for Cubans and another for foreign visitors like Mr. Maradona.

The Soler Hospital "tour" is almost a required stop for foreign visitors because it allows the government to boast about its efforts to care for all children.

At the same time, its disgraceful condition appalls visitors, who are told that the US Embargo is at fault. What state visitors are not shown, in the same hospital, are the air conditioned single-occupancy rooms reserved for foreigners with hard currency. These clinics perform organ transplants and cosmetic surgery and offer cancer treatments and orthopedic devices, along with other services and medicines denied to average Cubans.

Cuba&#39;s hospital decay can be linked to the government&#39;s decision to increasingly channel its limited resources toward those services that earn the government hard-currency payments from foreigners. The Cuban government makes no secret of this, at least outside the country, sending salesmen for the program abroad regularly and maintaining a Web site for promotion.

Servimed the government agency charged with promoting this program, markets medical services and products abroad and proclaims itself to be a system that "has turned out to be a tourist subsystem." Servimed&#39;s main function is to induce thousands of "dollar" patients to visit Cuba for what it calls "health tourism."

According to Servimed the Soler Pediatric Hospital&#39;s large hospital facilities" boast 10 single-occupancy rooms ear marked for health tourism." Cuba buys medicines and other hospital needs, including US made pharmaceuticals, in Europe and Latin America. Indeed, the embargo does not block the Clinton administration from issuing licenses to American companies allowing them to sell medical and agricultural supplies to Cuba. So there is no lack of medicine, including antibiotics, for the health-tourism program. But these rooms are off-limits to Cubans and were not on Mr. Ryan&#39;s tour schedule.

This situation is replicated at hospitals throughout the island. Quoting from Servied, the Cira Garcia Clinic specializes in a "wide range of pathologies" for foreigners, including executive checkups and cosmetic surgery. The Placental Histotherapy Center has provided services for more than 7,000 patients from 100 countries. The Camilo Cienfuegos International Ophthalmology Center "has 70 single-occupancy rooms with all the comforts of a medical institution and hotel." The Frank Pais Othopedic Hospital "has earmarked, in its main building, 24 single-occupancy rooms for health tourism," offering "18 more rooms, restaurant, commercial center, bar and snack bar."

The Castro regime&#39;s medical apartheid has been denounced by one of Cuba&#39;s most noted scientists, Hilda Molina, founder and a former director of Havana&#39;s International Center for Neurological Restoration. Dr. Molina broke with the regime and resigned from her high-level position and as a member of Cuba&#39;s National Assembly to protest the dual system. She currently is a virtual hostage in Havana, denied her former travel privileges and the right to practice medicine. Her word processor has been confiscated and her telephone tapped.

In a lengthy document smuggled out of Cuba after her resignation, Dr. Molina describes a campaign by Cuba to present itself as a "medical superpower" attractive to foreign patients looking for bargain-basement health care. Instead, she writes, these patients have often found themselves subject to substandard, sometimes fraudulent medical care. She tells of a system, driven solely by the profit motive, rewarding hospital for pushing unnecessary surgery and other, expensive treatments on foreign patients.

"The lack of adequate professional qualifications, the absence of medical ethics, and the drive toward financial enrichment characterize Cuba&#39;s medical system and often yield unfortunate results," Dr. Molina states. "Foreign patients are routinely inadequately or falsely inform about their medical conditions to increase their medical bills or to hide the fact that Cuba often advertises medical services it is unable to provide".

Cuban pediatric care, including a low infant-mortality rate, was once a much heralded achievement of Castro&#39;s revolution--despite evidence that the mortality rate was low mainly as a consequence of the high abortion rate of high-risk pregnancies. But Mr. Ryan&#39;s report on his visit to the pediatric hospital suggests there are now plenty of sick children without, medicine in Cuba.

The same regime that wins an amen chorus from Castro sympathizers when it blames the US for medical shortages advertises Cuba without a hint of embarrassment as "the ideal destination for your health." By the regime&#39;s own admission, its dual health system amounts to medical apartheid--deplorable conditions for Cubans as pointed out by the hospital "tour directors," and "ideal" conditions for foreigners. Medical apartheid is no differed from other forms of hateful apartheid. US politicians and businessmen visiting the island should be aware of what lies behind closed hospital doors.


So looks like you are right they do have good healthcare aslong as your NOT cuban.

[Tungsten]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 12:27 PM
Well, shit, you&#39;ve just earned you&#39;re first warning point for pointless spamming. Unless you care to actually demonstrate that the citizens of Cuba are all slaves.
Of course they&#39;re not all slaves. Castro&#39;s friends and other members of the government can do whatever they like. Everyone else must seek the government&#39;s permission.

Note: If I were to say that "Americans are slaves", I&#39;d be getting a round of applause without a single call for evidence. Spare me the hypocracy.

[Lord Testicles]

Originally posted by armyman+--> ( armyman)Cry me a river asswart. I am asking a valid question and none of you are answering it i said name a SUCCESSFUL communist country, name one one that under communist rule has become better. NAME ONE. Also this is Opposing views you don&#39;t like my opposing veiw so you want to ban me?[/b]

Not one person here can name a successful communist country because a communist country has never existed you moron. <_<


Originally posted by [email protected]
Then why did the above poster say Cuba, China and Russia if there never has been a country that has lived under communist rule.

because the above poster is wrong.


armyman
But for some reason you little punks who have never worked a day in your life and never lived under it seem to get a boner over communism. Working in the service industry doesn&#39;t count either.

oh i guess it only counts as a days work if you work for the army, get real you idiot, some of us dont get off by killing women and children.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Cuba -> successful construction of socialism over 46 years 90 miles away from the bastion of world imperialism.

Surpases all of the third world and some of the first world in spite of an illegal trade embargo.

Source: http://www.cubatruth.info

[Lord Testicles]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 01:49 PM
Cuba -> successful construction of socialism over 46 years 90 miles away from the bastion of world imperialism.

Surpases all of the third world and some of the first world in spite of an illegal trade embargo.

Source: http://www.cubatruth.info
emphasis added, it may be socialism but it isnt communism.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Mostly because communism can&#39;t exist in one country.

[Lord Testicles]

well you need socialism to take hold in the majorty of countrys before you can introduce communism.

[Goatse]

Name A Successful Communist Country

This thread is by default a failure.


Cry me a river asswart. I am asking a valid question and none of you are answering it i said name a SUCCESSFUL communist country, name one one that under communist rule has become better. NAME ONE

Pretty much every "communist country" (as defined by... you) have become "better" under "communist rule."


Also this is Opposing views you don&#39;t like my opposing veiw so you want to ban me?

How very communist of you.

The fact that we have an OI forum shows we&#39;re open to debating. While I&#39;m not an admin, mod or even in the CC, I can say we&#39;d ban you for being an idiot, not for having opposing views.


Then why did the above poster say Cuba, China and Russia if there never has been a country that has lived under communist rule

Because you also did?


I think you are talking about that there is supposed to be no class under communism well guess what buddy there is and there would be.

But if there was class, then it wouldn&#39;t be communism?



Like i said i have been to Europe i have talked to people who have lived through communist regimes and NOT ONE OF THEM HAS SAID IT WAS A HAPPY LOVELY PLACE TO LIVE NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON. ONE MAN EVEN STARTED TO CRY WHEN I TALKED TO HIM ABOUT IT.

Communist regimes? Wow, where do you live, PLANET OF THE UNNECESSARY CAPITALS?


But for some reason you little punks who have never worked a day in your life and never lived under it seem to get a boner over communism. Working in the service industry doesn&#39;t count either.

I&#39;m not even going to waste my time on this one.


People were leaving BEFORE 1956 infact in the 1940&#39;s they were escaping.

Yes, they were escaping the evil communist regime. Infact Stalin was chasing them personally. :rolleyes:

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 12:39 PM



Cry me a river asswart. I am asking a valid question and none of you are answering it i said name a SUCCESSFUL communist country, name one one that under communist rule has become better. NAME ONE. Also this is Opposing views you don&#39;t like my opposing veiw so you want to ban me?
Any answer would assume some prior knowledge on your art, and it may well be present but you are ignoring this to spark reaction. Also that isn&#39;t a question it is a demand, and one that by very definition of the terms you are using (incorrectly) is blatantly obvious.


Then why did the above poster say Cuba, China and Russia if there never has been a country that has lived under communist rule. I think you are talking about that there is supposed to be no class under communism well guess what buddy there is and there would be.

There wouldn&#39;t and couldn&#39;t be. Communism is a term applicable to a finished state, any roblems you could attribute to anything would be to do with socialism. This might help clear it up a little bit for you, if that was ever your intention. What communism is (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=43133)


How very communist of you.
The westernised use of the word is not comatable with the original sense of the word. Imagine trying to argue black is white, when both people hold inverse values for each, but refuse to accept each others views because they know they are "right."


Like i said i have been to Europe i have talked to people who have lived through communist regimes
No you haven&#39;t.

[Dark Exodus]

Cry me a river asswart. I am asking a valid question and none of you are answering it i said name a SUCCESSFUL communist country, name one one that under communist rule has become better. NAME ONE. Also this is Opposing views you don&#39;t like my opposing veiw so you want to ban me?

No, we wan&#39;t to ban you because you are an annoying troll who can barely constuct a sentence let alone a coherent argument.

[poetofrageX]

I&#39;m tempted not to respond to this armyman idiot, but i think i should try to sum everything up as simply as possible, using as many small words as i can.

You have never talked to someone who lived in a Communist regime, because such a thing has never existed. Russia, China, and all of the Eastern European countries in the Soviet bloc were socialist, which is not the same thng, but a state of government that must exist before Communism can succesfully take hold.

Cuba&#39;s healthcare is amazingly advanced, considereing the illeagal trade embargo aginst it by the U.S., which is trying to destroy Cuba&#39;s economy, regardless of the number of people who will inevitably die because of this. Why? So that United Fruit can have their sugar farm back. The U.S. healthcare system might be more technologically advanced, but the best healthcare in the country is only available to the rich, while the healthare in Cuba is for everyone.

All "communist" countries(whcih were really socialist) have made vast improvements, whcih would have been impossible under the capitalist monarchies they were previously under.

Now do you finally understand what we&#39;ve been saying?

[Red Leader]

One succsesful country that lived under so called "communist rule" would be China from 1949 to 1979, no doubt.

Life expectancy improved, literacy rates improved, crime, drug addiction, rape, child brides, prostitution and extreme polorization of wealth were essentially erardicated. The fudal system was destroyed, from the 40&#39;s to 50&#39;s china&#39;s land reforms resulted in the worls largest redistribution of wealth in history. China&#39;s agriculture and industry grew furiously. Widespread hunger was erradicated. Health care was provided for everyone

Social changes were evident as well: women were treated as equals and were encouraged to participate in government and education (unlike the USA in the 40&#39;s) In the 60&#39;s, the onlygovernment to encourage protest was china&#39;s. Culture flourashed, dance, ballet, opera, sculpture were all brought forward to the masses.

If this is not succes, i dont know what is.

[Guerrilla22]

Since there never has been a communist state... However Cuba has been a sucessful socialist state since 1959, despite a US economic blockade.

[CCCPneubauten]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 12:39 PM
Like i said i have been to Europe i have talked to people who have lived through communist regimes and NOT ONE OF THEM HAS SAID IT WAS A HAPPY LOVELY PLACE TO LIVE NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON. ONE MAN EVEN STARTED TO CRY WHEN I TALKED TO HIM ABOUT IT.

But for some reason you little punks who have never worked a day in your life and never lived under it seem to get a boner over communism. Working in the service industry doesn&#39;t count either.

I have also been to Europe, East German wants many aspects of Socialism back, due to the fact they all had a job. Of which they sure as hell don&#39;t now.

Also, I have been to Russia and you&#39;d be hard pressed to find osme one who doesn&#39;t miss what are called the &#39;Good old days" of socialism.

No one cries over it, you are a liar.


Also, nice job, I have a job you moron. It&#39;s not in the service industry, but even if it was..IT WOULD TO COUNT&#33;

You sir, are a liar, you know nothing of communism but fear of it.

[FleasTheLemur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 11:50 PM
Really, because i am having a hard time finding one China is no longer really communist as they have had to adapt to the world market. So anyone got one? That hasn&#39;t killed millions of people or commited mass murder or squash human rights? I can find many defunct communist states however.
I hate to get really philosophical, but you quantify success based on the acquisition of material wealth and money. Even as I type this, I can imagine some anti-communist newbie valiantly proclaiming &#39;Amerca is so kewl becuz I haev all tish stufh&#33;&#33;&#33;11 LOL&#33;&#33;111&#39;

If we was and only was basis &#39;success&#39; on the material wealth, then by God, America is one of the &#39;kewlest&#39; countries around. But success cannot be judged on material wealth. It&#39;s a poor and shitty base for anything&#33; The basis for success (to me at least) is based on happiness. Guess which country is the happiest country around according to NationMaster.com?

Venez-fucking-uela with a whopping 55% of people who say that they are very happy. Venezuela being a country with a serious level of socialism&#33;

This is, of course, opposed to the United States, who only has 39% of the populous that can be considered very happy. Source (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lif_hap_lev_ver_hap)

Moving on, we have the most &#39;unhappy countries&#39; Taking a look at this list here, surprise, surprise... A lot of the unhappy countries was apart of the former USSR and Eastern Bloc&#33; WOW&#33; Capitalism has generated a lot of happiness for these folks&#33; Mission Accomplished, Ronny&#33; You freed them from the tyranny of Vanguardism only to have the much worse tyranny of neoliberialistic capitalism&#33; Again, Source (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lif_hap_lev_not_ver_or_not_at_all_hap)

Alright, we&#39;ve taken into account the countries that consider themselves &#39;very happy&#39; and the countries that aren&#39;t &#39;very happy at all&#39;, so there has to be a net level right?

Countries with Scandinavian &#39;socialism&#39; and Bolivarian Socialism rank higher than the capitalistic USA&#33; While nearly the whole former Eastern Bloc ranks low. Source (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lif_hap_net)

[The Floyd]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 02:19 PM
Mostly because communism can&#39;t exist in one country.
This is very true, communism can&#39;t exist in one country only, it fails. It doesn&#39;t work because situations like the US Blockade. The only reason Cuba isn&#39;t one of the most advanced countries in the world while being a socialist state is because of this blockade, a product of a war based solely on the fear that communism was evil and that the evil Communists would blow the shit out of the "Free World". Essentially it could work, and one day it will.


But for some reason you little punks who have never worked a day in your life and never lived under it seem to get a boner over communism. Working in the service industry doesn&#39;t count either.


Working in the service industry counts. Working period counts. As a woman staying home and choosing to be a homekeeper counts, likewise would be going to work for the government or in a lumber yard. As a child, going to school counts, getting an education counts because you are developing your mind so you can do greater things in the future to help and provide for the masses. You don&#39;t need to be a doctor to help people, because everyone helps everyone, through things like taxes and benefits like universal health care. Don&#39;t tell me that being in the service industry doesn&#39;t count because no matter what you do, it counts. Everyone is a worker, it&#39;s just that in the society you praise, people are working against each other.

I don&#39;t know how much of that made sense, I&#39;m really tired but if someone understands you can rephrase it for me or just ask me and I&#39;ll re-iterate in the morning. I&#39;ll still know what I was trying to say.

[LA GUERRA OLVIDADA]

The former GDR a breeding ground for neo-nazis.....?

BWAHAHAHAHHA

East Germany continues to elect communist mayors in many cities, you are delusional.

[Hiero]

Nearly every Communist ideological country has been a great success. With great leeps in living standards and a drop in the rate of death. This rapid progress has never been experinced in countries&#39; economy has been dictacted to them by the US and the world bank.

The only time the progress slowed was due to ideological revisiomism and effots to please the US with market socialism.

[Tungsten]

FleasTheLemur

The basis for success (to me at least) is based on happiness. Guess which country is the happiest country around according to NationMaster.com?
How are they measuring this "happiness"?

The Floyd

Working in the service industry counts. Working period counts.

My MD works too, then. I guess the workers have already taken control of the means of production and we&#39;re already living in communism. How lovely. I guess there&#39;s no need for a revolution after all.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by LA GUERRA [email protected] 27 2005, 12:31 AM
The former GDR a breeding ground for neo-nazis.....?

BWAHAHAHAHHA

East Germany continues to elect communist mayors in many cities, you are delusional.
I don&#39;t think the two are mutually exclusive. I don&#39;t know how things are in Germany, but if its like in the US in terms of who is voting, youth aren&#39;t a major part and youth are the primary recruits for neo-nazis. So you could have communists being elected and have it be a breeding ground for neo-nazis, which doesn&#39;t seem too far fetched to me. Russia has certainly seen a boom in neo-nazis, why not the former GDR?

[The Floyd]

The Floyd


Working in the service industry counts. Working period counts.


My MD works too, then. I guess the workers have already taken control of the means of production and we&#39;re already living in communism. How lovely. I guess there&#39;s no need for a revolution after all.



No, I&#39;m just saying that they count as workers. I was just angered because he is belittling (sp?) a job. It was my personal opinion that everyone is important and everyone should be respected equally. I didn&#39;t mean that they actually are treated that way. *sigh* too bad though

[FleasTheLemur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 02:59 PM
FleasTheLemur

The basis for success (to me at least) is based on happiness. Guess which country is the happiest country around according to NationMaster.com?
How are they measuring this "happiness"?


Definition: Proportion of people who answered the survey question: "Taking all things together, would you say you are: very happy, quite happy, not very happy, or not at all happy?

Your attention to detail astonishes me.

[Zingu]

Why hasen&#39;t anyone mentioned the Paris Commune or the Spanish Revolution?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 04:21 AM
Why hasen&#39;t anyone mentioned the Paris Commune or the Spanish Revolution?
I wouldn&#39;t exactly call those countries...

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by NoXion+Nov 30 2005, 04:51 AM--> (NoXion @ Nov 30 2005, 04:51 AM)
[email protected] 30 2005, 04:21 AM
Why hasen&#39;t anyone mentioned the Paris Commune or the Spanish Revolution?
I wouldn&#39;t exactly call those countries... [/b]
I wouldn&#39;t exactly call them sucessful considering they were defeated by armies of reaction.

But there are lots of examples which show that it is possible for workers to run society such as the Paris commune and even the cooperatives and neigborhood comitties that were set up during the crisis in Argentina only a few years ago.

[tunes]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 03:56 PM
Really, because i am having a hard time finding one China is no longer really communist as they have had to adapt to the world market. So anyone got one? That hasn&#39;t killed millions of people or commited mass murder or squash human rights? I can find many defunct communist states however.
Can you name a successful capitalist country? Having a hard time finding one that quells my interest in alternative economic systems.

[Zingu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 12:16 AM
Can you name a successful capitalist country? Having a hard time finding one that quells my interest in alternative economic systems.
Plenty of them, probably you live in one right now.

[tunes]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 05:53 PM
Plenty of them, probably you live in one right now.
Yeah, over 35 million people in poverty. Just screams success.

[Zingu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 09:20 PM

Yeah, over 35 million people in poverty. Just screams success.
Yes, it has succeded, Capitalism is based on a new arrangement of class society, its based to exploit the labor of the lower classes for the benefit of the ruling class, capitalism is not about equal benefit for all, so its successful.

[Tungsten]

FleasTheLemur

Definition: Proportion of people who answered the survey question: "Taking all things together, would you say you are: very happy, quite happy, not very happy, or not at all happy?
So the question was purely subjective and devoid of context, but you chose to highlight the result of this survey as a fact to be acted on. Okay.

[Marxist]

hmmm , just BAN armyman and the fighting on this topic will be over&#33;
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA&#33; :lol: :lol: :P :P :P :D :D

[kingbee]

great, but that would actually be shit. i often go on right wing message boards, and like the fact that they do tolerate left wingers (up to a point).

banning would only narrow debate. how about the dialectic and contradiction? only through these do we get the truth.

[DisIllusion]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 11:48 AM
great, but that would actually be shit. i often go on right wing message boards, and like the fact that they do tolerate left wingers (up to a point).

banning would only narrow debate. how about the dialectic and contradiction? only through these do we get the truth.
Agreed comrade, but there are the right-wingers that are so offensive and narrow-minded that they aren&#39;t even up for a real debate. Publius is always good for a debate in a civilized, open-minded manner. Armyman and Capitalist Imperial are more of the narrow-minded type that here just to stir up trouble and not so much truth.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Cuba is the only Latin American country to ever solve the problem of poverty, rampant starvation, and the widespread lack of basic necessities.

This argument really comes down to whether you preffer everyone living in simple but decent conditions, or some people living richly while about a third of the population has literally nothing.

And you can&#39;t use North America and Western Europe as an example of successful capitalism, because we live in a global economic community and you have to factor in the international working class thet plays a huge role in American economics. If you define "workers" as the people who produce goods and services used by a society, then billions of America&#39;s "workers" are for all practical purposes sweatshop slaves in the third world.

http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/9218/habanasenoresimperialistas2siz.jpg

[FidelCastro]

Personally, I don&#39;t think Veitnam did all to bad and neither did Cuba. China is not communist, they are pretty much Fascists, they are currently killing Falun Gong just because they are Falun Gong and the leaders don&#39;t like the religion (replace the words Falun Gong with Jews and leaders with Hitler and see if it sounds familiar). Cuba hasen&#39;t had any Genocides and there is some arguments with Vietnam under Ho Chi Minh but I don&#39;t think there was any massive killings.

"Death solves all problems, no man, no problems" - Joseph Stalin.....What a crappy quote
"I am prepared to die, but there is no cause for which I am prepared to kill." - Ghandi....Now that sounds alot better

[SCDF]

It does not excist.

[Tungsten]

RedZeppelin

This argument really comes down to whether you preffer everyone living in simple but decent conditions, or some people living richly while about a third of the population has literally nothing.

That&#39;s an old wives tale told by those who know nothing about either economics or human action. Perhaps the real choice is whether you&#39;d rather be a poor and relatively free than living in "simple but decent" conditions in a dictatorship where saying the wrong thing gets you shot.

[fpeppett]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You think that we are "relatively free"? I would say we are anything but, just because we are controlled through covert means doesn&#39;t mean we are "free".

Yeah I understand your point that people like Stalin never allowed people to be free, but again that was never communism was it>

[Dark Exodus]

Perhaps the real choice is whether you&#39;d rather be a poor and relatively free than living in "simple but decent" conditions in a dictatorship where saying the wrong thing gets you shot.

Nope, thats not the one, try again.

[Tungsten]

fpeppett
What do mean by "covert means"? If you&#39;re going to start talking about black helicopters, flouride in water and subliminal messaging then don&#39;t bother.

Dark Exodus

Nope, thats not the one, try again.
If the US and Cuba are the places in question, then yes it is.

[I&#39;m the red under your bed]

There is no such thing as a communist country.A communist state has no state,all countrys labeling themsleves communist are wrong,they are just dictatorships.

[Dark Exodus]

If the US and Cuba are the places in question, then yes it is.

The US? You forgot the part about raping 3rd world countries then. You know the ones with thousands of starving people that America and Western Europe could help but won&#39;t due to monetary issues?
- - -
My knowledge of Cuba is limited so I&#39;ll let someone else reply to that.

[fpeppett]

fpeppett
What do mean by "covert means"? If you&#39;re going to start talking about black helicopters, flouride in water and subliminal messaging then don&#39;t bother.

No, I simply mean that we are not "relatively free" like you said. And no im not some crazy conspiracy theorist;

I am saying that we are controlled by the media-everyones opinion today is based on one word from a news reporter on the tv, we are controlled by the likes of advertising and big franchises; we are simply made to do as we do and do as we think but most dont realise that they are not "relatively free".

And yes I would rather that anyday to be a victim of Stalins purges

[Tungsten]

Dark Exodus

The US? You forgot the part about raping 3rd world countries then. You know the ones with thousands of starving people that America and Western Europe could help but won&#39;t due to monetary issues?
So if I don&#39;t hand money to a beggar, I&#39;m "raping" him?

fpeppett

No, I simply mean that we are not "relatively free" like you said.
We&#39;re free relative to the rest of the world.


And no im not some crazy conspiracy theorist;

I am saying that we are controlled by the media-
I&#39;m not controlled by the media; I think 99% of what they say is nonsense. I&#39;m sure there are a few people silly enough to believe them, but not the vast majority. Even kids can see through it.


everyones opinion today is based on one word from a news reporter on the tv, we are controlled by the likes of advertising and big franchises; we are simply made to do as we do and do as we think but most dont realise that they are not "relatively free".
How are these advertisements "controlling" you? Are they stopping you from acting? Are they banning you from doing things? If not, they&#39;re not controlling you.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 05:39 PM
RedZeppelin

This argument really comes down to whether you preffer everyone living in simple but decent conditions, or some people living richly while about a third of the population has literally nothing.

That&#39;s an old wives tale told by those who know nothing about either economics or human action. Perhaps the real choice is whether you&#39;d rather be a poor and relatively free than living in "simple but decent" conditions in a dictatorship where saying the wrong thing gets you shot.
Just to quote the song; "Freedom of speach won&#39;t feed my children".

When it comes down to it, you can have as much freedom as you like, but I will take regular meals over the chance to speak my mind.



That&#39;s an old wives tale told by those who know nothing about either economics or human action.

Actually, if you bother to get up off your ass and actually do some research (in fact with the dawning of the internet age, you don&#39;t even have to get up off your ass) you will find that starvation and povery are major issues in most Latin American countries, and the distrobution of wealth is very limited.

I can give you a bit of a boost if you like, to make that research a little easier.

http://www.swetswise.com/public/login.do?r...%2Faccess_db.do (http://www.swetswise.com/public/login.do?redirectUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.swetswise.co m%2Flink%2Faccess_db.do)

http://www.jstor.org/

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/;jsessionid=...l51aif.victoria (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/;jsessionid=201f1tvl51aif.victoria)

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/

Join these and you have a near limitless supply of research material from people who actually know what they are talking about, a novel concept for conservatives and libertarians, I know. Fox news just isn&#39;t what its cracked up to be...

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 11:39 AM
That&#39;s an old wives tale told by those who know nothing about either economics or human action. Perhaps the real choice is whether you&#39;d rather be a poor and relatively free than living in "simple but decent" conditions in a dictatorship where saying the wrong thing gets you shot.
I&#39;m not sure if "poor" really describes the living conditions of the vast majority of Latin Americans not in Cuba.

I&#39;d also like to point out that millions in Latin America and other third world nations have been shot for "saying the wrong thing" while they were under fascist regimes upheld by the United States.

Free market doesn&#39;t mean freedom of speech. Usually the opposite is true, in fact.

It&#39;s not a bad thing that the Cuban people execute those who are convicted of actively threatening the freedom and equality brought about by socialism.

[fpeppett]

Perhaps the real choice is whether you&#39;d rather be a poor and relatively free than living in "simple but decent" conditions in a dictatorship where saying the wrong thing gets you shot.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^
Propaganda is to democracy as the bludgeon is to a totalatarian state-Chomsky


Same means different tools (although saying &#39;democracy&#39; is a bit rich if you ask me but watev, good quote)

[Delirium]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 05:46 PM

When it comes down to it, you can have as much freedom as you like, but I will take regular meals over the chance to speak my mind.


I wouldn&#39;t, i&#39;d run of and live in the woods. The wind on my shoulder has never curtailed my free speech rights.

[Raisa]

"Name a sucessful communist country"

I bet you think you some smart shit&#33;

why dont you name a sucessful capitalist country, or shut up.

[Bugalu Shrimp]

Britain, USA, Germany, Japan etc.. etc... Sucessfull capitalist countries..

Now name a communist one you nasty little *****..

[LSD]

Britain, USA, Germany, Japan etc.. etc... Sucessfull capitalist countries..

Really? Successful for whom?

If you&#39;re defining success as the ability to centralize a lot of wealth in a small elite&#39;s hands, then the USSR fits the bill. Same for if you&#39;re defining it as technological innovation or buidling up a massive army and invading other countries.

Personally, I don&#39;t define success as any of those things. To me, a successful society must be firstly equal and free, and on that score, "Britain, USA, Germany, Japan, etc..." fail miserably.

And considering how much more wealthy and powerful these countries are compared with those few states which have attempted "socialism", just how unsuccessful they are is incredible.

There is more homelessness and less access to health care in the US than in Cuba; a microscopic country with no real resources, significant allies, or international aid.

Something like 40 million Americans have no access to health care at all&#33;

You call that "successful"? :lol:

[fpeppett]

Does no one realise thats &#39;success&#39; is a bit open ended, i mean we will never agree on anything becasue the rights view of &#39;success&#39; and the lefts are completely different.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 04:28 PM
RedZeppelin

This argument really comes down to whether you preffer everyone living in simple but decent conditions, or some people living richly while about a third of the population has literally nothing.

That&#39;s an old wives tale told by those who know nothing about either economics or human action. Perhaps the real choice is whether you&#39;d rather be a poor and relatively free than living in "simple but decent" conditions in a dictatorship where saying the wrong thing gets you shot.
You can&#39;t compare the US and Cuba in terms of repression, unless you want to look foolish. The US maintains an enormous network of secret prisons and executes far more people than Cuba. Cuba would probably execute no one if it wasn&#39;t going through a violent revolution and counter revolutionary war for the past few decades.

[Chavista]

People often compare Cuba to the US which is utterly ridiculous because the climate, resources, size, etc. are not the same.

A better compare with cuba taking all of those things into account would be Haiti.

It is on this basis, and the fact that Cuba has operated under contstant economic attack from the US that I think it is an example of a successful communist state.

[ComTom]

In my personal opinion, I find no communist country successful simply because they have failed to give their people various freedoms that are needed to survive. They have provided them with the needs to live a acceptable lifestyle, but they are no longer aloud to express themselves.

[Commie Rat]

Armyman

Australia seems to have the best healthcare system in the world

Are you fucking kidding me&#33;? How long were you actually in Austrialia?Or did you just watch a episode of All Saints? My brother broke his shin in a football match (soccer) we waited untill the next day to go to hospital, we were in there waiting for 8 hours- just to put plaster on this leg. no tests no forms no examinations - the ambo&#39;s had done that the night before all they had to do was wrap it in plaster.

http://www.qphci.qld.gov.au/ - links to the Morris Inqury

[Creature]

Are you fucking kidding me&#33;? How long were you actually in Austrialia?Or did you just watch a episode of All Saints? My brother broke his shin in a football match (soccer) we waited untill the next day to go to hospital, we were in there waiting for 8 hours- just to put plaster on this leg. no tests no forms no examinations - the ambo&#39;s had done that the night before all they had to do was wrap it in plaster.


Just to add to that:


When I was a kid I had an asthma attack - serious one, and I was waiting in the emergency room of a hospital for 2 hours before a doctor finaly saw me.

My friend sliced his hand open, and was waiting in the emergency room of another hospital, and was sitting accross from a little girl who had nearly cracked her skull open on a cabinet. Anyway, he was waiting for an hour before the nurse called him up and instead he let the little girl go in because she had been waiting for 3 hours.

One of the local hospitals here are so understaffed you can walk the corridors, smash into a vending machine, steal everything inside, and no one would notice for three weeks. Rooms are boared off. The lights are dimmed to save money. The place needs 10x more funding then what its getting. So armyman, don&#39;t try to tell me that our country has the best health care in the world.

[Tungsten]

Enigma

Just to quote the song; "Freedom of speach won&#39;t feed my children".Lacking the freedom to act sure won&#39;t feed you either.

When it comes down to it, you can have as much freedom as you like, but I will take regular meals over the chance to speak my mind.
Then you&#39;ll run to the nearest dictator who promises you three meals a day if you promise to be his slave.

Actually, if you bother to get up off your ass and actually do some research (in fact with the dawning of the internet age, you don&#39;t even have to get up off your ass) you will find that starvation and povery are major issues in most Latin American countries, and the distrobution of wealth is very limited.
There&#39;s very little weath to redistibute in the first place, so it wouldn&#39;t matter. The reason being that there&#39;s so little freedom to produce it.

Join these and you have a near limitless supply of research material from people who actually know what they are talking about, a novel concept for conservatives and libertarians, I know. Fox news just isn&#39;t what its cracked up to be...
Don&#39;t give up your day job, Mr Comedian. Slogan slinging and phony economic theories won&#39;t get you far with me.

Why don&#39;t you try a real economic theory (i.e. one that works) instead :
Look at the "Praxeology" section. (http://www.mindspring.com/~cunningr/pp/H0.html)

RedZeppelin

I&#39;d also like to point out that millions in Latin America and other third world nations have been shot for "saying the wrong thing" while they were under fascist regimes upheld by the United States.
The States has not banned freedom of speech, so it&#39;s kind of irrelevent. Fascism isn&#39;t captialism, so that isn&#39;t relevent either.

Free market doesn&#39;t mean freedom of speech. Usually the opposite is true, in fact.
See how this contradicts the sentence following it:

It&#39;s not a bad thing that the Cuban people execute those who are convicted of actively threatening the freedom and equality brought about by socialism.
So you support the execution of people who merely say the wrong thing? How is that "freedom"?
OglachMcGlinchey

You can&#39;t compare the US and Cuba in terms of repression, unless you want to look foolish.
Quite right. How many people are executed in the US for criticising the government?

The US maintains an enormous network of secret prisons and executes far more people than Cuba.
Are those black helicopters I can hear?

Cuba would probably execute no one if it wasn&#39;t going through a violent revolution and counter revolutionary war for the past few decades.
And I&#39;m sure the Nazis wouldn&#39;t have killed anyone if they&#39;d have just surrendered and kept quiet.
Chavista

People often compare Cuba to the US which is utterly ridiculous because the climate, resources, size, etc. are not the same.
And the political system. That makes a big difference.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

First I&#39;d like to say that you failed to address all of my points.


The States has not banned freedom of speech, so it&#39;s kind of irrelevent. Fascism isn&#39;t captialism, so that isn&#39;t relevent either.

The United States did ban freedom of speech in other countries. For the purpose of fighting the communist threat.

If fascism isn&#39;t capitalism, what economic system do they follow?
Don&#39;t say it&#39;s a command economy because it&#39;s not.

If you&#39;d rather not call the US-sponsored military regimes of Chile, Brazil, Argentina, Portugal, and etc fascist, that&#39;s fine. But they were certainly capitalist.


See how this contradicts the sentence following it:

You didn&#39;t understand the sentence following that one.


So you support the execution of people who merely say the wrong thing? How is that "freedom"?

I support the execution of people who threaten socialism. That could be written or spoken.

It&#39;s the protection of freedom.
Americans have been imprisoned for saying or writing things that endanger America&#39;s status quo. e.g. Sherman Austin
It&#39;s not something unique to socialism.

[Andy Bowden]

Does anyone have any examples of Cubans being shot for "saying something"?

I&#39;ve never read any HRW report or AI report alleging Cubans are killed for their opinion - they allege they are jailed, and criticise Cubas use of the death penalty - but I dont think they&#39;ve ever put Cuba into the same bracket as Pinochets Chile.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 03:27 PM
OglachMcGlinchey

You can&#39;t compare the US and Cuba in terms of repression, unless you want to look foolish.
Quite right. How many people are executed in the US for criticising the government?
I&#39;ve never heard of people being executed for criticising the government of Cuba. You&#39;ll have to prove it if so - the burden&#39;s on you my friend.




The US maintains an enormous network of secret prisons and executes far more people than Cuba.
Are those black helicopters I can hear?

:lol:

You seriously didn&#39;t hear about the network of CIA prisons recenty uncovered??&#33;&#33;

[Andy Bowden]

Oglach probably hears plenty of helicopters in the o6c :lol:

[Lamanov]

In 82 posts did anyone explain to this guy what communism is and what it is not? :rolleyes:

[KC]

Quite right. How many people are executed in the US for criticising the government?

They don&#39;t necessarily execute you. And to do so publicly or to let it become public knowledge would be suicide for them. Of course, they harass you and find a way to make your life a living hell. Millions of people have been killed for "criticizing the US government" overseas.

[Invader Zim]

Lacking the freedom to act sure won&#39;t feed you either.

But in Cuba they are being fed, at least to a far greater degree than the inhabitants of the ‘Favelas’ or the tiny rural communities.


Then you&#39;ll run to the nearest dictator who promises you three meals a day if you promise to be his slave.

If you care to look up the rise of fascism and totalitarianism then you can see that is exactly what most people do when utterly desperate. With hundreds, if not thousands, of academic journals at your disposal, that should not be too difficult.




There&#39;s very little weath to redistibute in the first place, so it wouldn&#39;t matter.

You are clearly very ignorant of this topic; the vast expanse in, lifestyle between those who have, and who do not have, in Latin American countries is very well documented.



Don&#39;t give up your day job, Mr Comedian.

I am hilariously witty.


Slogan slinging and phony economic theories won&#39;t get you far with me.

I haven&#39;t cited any economic theories, phoney or otherwise. So you are quite correct ‘they’ won’t get very far with you, indeed, ‘they’ probably won’t even get to you.

[Tungsten]

RedZeppelin

The United States did ban freedom of speech in other countries. For the purpose of fighting the communist threat.
How can the United States ban freedom of speech in another country? How does that work? Why didn&#39;t it start with the US if the threat was so great?

If fascism isn&#39;t capitalism, what economic system do they follow?
Usually Keynesian, middle of the road economics.

Don&#39;t say it&#39;s a command economy because it&#39;s not.
Of course it isn&#39;t. A fascist government would never dream of telling its people what it can and cannot do.

If you&#39;d rather not call the US-sponsored military regimes of Chile, Brazil, Argentina, Portugal, and etc fascist, that&#39;s fine. But they were certainly capitalist.
Have you got any proof of this, or are we entering black helicopters territory?

I support the execution of people who threaten socialism. That could be written or spoken.

It&#39;s the protection of freedom.
We have to ban freedom of speech in order to protect freedom? Spot the obvious contradiction.

Americans have been imprisoned for saying or writing things that endanger America&#39;s status quo. e.g. Sherman Austin
It&#39;s not something unique to socialism.
How is hacking someone else&#39;s computer "saying the wrong thing"?

Andy Bowden
Someone gave me this link (http://d2.mediastreamnetworks.com/streamvideo.asp?sss=d2&ssvn=2138&ssun=Freestar&ssvs=Large&sspc=6&ssps=3&ssvw=320&ssvh=253) recently. I&#39;m sure your comments will be interesting.

OglachMcGlinchey
Well, the people in the link I&#39;ve given Andy were given around 20 years each, but then these things are just a sliding scale.

[Hiero]

We have to ban freedom of speech in order to protect freedom? Spot the obvious contradiction.

It is banning the speech of the bourgeois and the counter revolutionaries in order to save socialism which is for the proletariat.

Freedom fo speach is always relative to the economic base.

[Andy Bowden]

My question was has Cuba ever executed anybody for speaking against the Govt - and you have yet to provide any evidence of this.

The video also does not include the fact that these "dissidents" had been meeting with a US govt official, and this was why they were jailed. There are similar laws present in the UK and US in terms of working with a hostile foreign power.

There were also numerous mobilisations against the Varela project called by the Communist Party - the biggest of which was in Havana&#39;s revolution square, which far outnumbered the 11,000 signatures the Varela project obtained.

[Tungsten]

Andy Bowden

My question was has Cuba ever executed anybody for speaking against the Govt - and you have yet to provide any evidence of this.
Even if they didn&#39;t, there isn&#39;t really much difference. If they can justify lengthy prison sentences, they can justify execution without too much trouble. How exactly did Castro come to power, if not on a wave of executions?

The video also does not include the fact that these "dissidents" had been meeting with a US govt official, and this was why they were jailed. There are similar laws present in the UK and US in terms of working with a hostile foreign power.
Even if they did (the Cuban govenment &#39;claims&#39; they did, but they probably do that to anyone with a different opinion), it does not justify the sentence. I didn&#39;t think anyone would be sick enough to actually try to defend this regime, but I&#39;ve been proved wrong.

There were also numerous mobilisations against the Varela project called by the Communist Party - the biggest of which was in Havana&#39;s revolution square, which far outnumbered the 11,000 signatures the Varela project obtained.
Mobilisations?
Hiero

It is banning the speech of the bourgeois and the counter revolutionaries in order to save socialism which is for the proletariat.
What does that justify and how does that prove me wrong?

Freedom fo speach is always relative to the economic base.
I think you&#39;ve got that backwards.

[KC]

Even if they didn&#39;t, there isn&#39;t really much difference. If they can justify lengthy prison sentences, they can justify execution without too much trouble. How exactly did Castro come to power, if not on a wave of executions?

The same could be said for the US. Actually, the US now can (and does) hold people indefinitely without any evidence or anything. Talk about fascist&#33;



Even if they did (the Cuban govenment &#39;claims&#39; they did, but they probably do that to anyone with a different opinion), it does not justify the sentence. I didn&#39;t think anyone would be sick enough to actually try to defend this regime, but I&#39;ve been proved wrong.

Haha. You have yet to back up any of your assertions. Why don&#39;t you provide evidence on how the government doese this. Or how someone has to be sick to defend the regime. Have you read the Cuban Constitution? Do you know anything of Cuban politics or social life? Give us some evidence. Stop your *****ing and give us some evidence.

Freedom of speech doesn&#39;t exist. It never has and it never will. Sorry&#33;

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

How can the United States ban freedom of speech in another country? How does that work? Why didn&#39;t it start with the US if the threat was so great?

Easy.
The United States sponsors military regimes which ban free speech.
Communism was not a strong threat in the United States due to higher standards of living here and plenty of propaganda.


Usually Keynesian, middle of the road economics.

Middle of the road within the confines of a capitalist economic spectrum.
Keynesian economics is by all definitions capitalism.


Have you got any proof of this, or are we entering black helicopters territory?

Proof that the United States sponsored such regimes or that they were capitalist?
The latter is obvious.
The former can be proven with a quick google search.

This applies only to Spain, but I guess it&#39;s a start (http://countrystudies.us/spain/24.htm)

I hate having these discussions with people who lack basic knowledge of 20th century history, but I suppose I can make an exception.

The United States was down with all the fascists... Franco in Spain, Salazar in Portugal (Portugal was even a member of NATO), Peron in Argentina, Pinochet in Chile, Vargas in Brazil, and later the military regime in Brazil.


We have to ban freedom of speech in order to protect freedom? Spot the obvious contradiction.

It makes sense, though, doesn&#39;t it?
Speech can often threaten a society. In most of Europe, propagating Nazism is illegal. It&#39;s illegal to make threats in most places. It&#39;s certainly illegal to threaten public figures and leaders. Don&#39;t act like I&#39;m some crazy marginal for stating the obvious.


How is hacking someone else&#39;s computer "saying the wrong thing"?

He was actually charged with "distributing bombmaking information knowing or intending that the information will be used for a violent crime."

[Andy Bowden]

Tungsten,

1 - Castro did not come to power on a "wave of executions". He came to power on the back of a popular revolution - even his detractors admit this, though claim he "betrayed" such a revolution. The executions carried out where far less brutal than under Batista, and were justified considering the crimes the Regime had carried out.


2 - There has been no US govt or "dissident" denial that they have met with US gov officials. The USAID website in 2003 openly admitted to transferring money to organisations such as "The Center for a Free Cuba" and the "Cuban Dissidence Task Group". When I read the Economists report on the arrest of the "dissidents" even they admitted they had been meeting with a US official. If I had been accepting money from Saddam Hussein, or some other enemy of the UK I would be locked up without protest - similar laws exist in Cuba, for the defence against a regime - which as the case of Luis Posada Carilles shows - has a history of terrorism against the Cuban people.


3 - Mobilisations that have been carried out to support the Cuban Revolution have been mass rallies in Revolution Square in Havana, which outnumber the signatories of Varela by a great deal.

[Tungsten]

Lazar

The same could be said for the US. Actually, the US now can (and does) hold people indefinitely without any evidence or anything. Talk about fascist&#33;
Yeah terrible. Pity it&#39;s unconsitutional.

Haha. You have yet to back up any of your assertions. Why don&#39;t you provide evidence on how the government doese this. Or how someone has to be sick to defend the regime. Have you read the Cuban Constitution?
I&#39;ve read the US constitution too, which is violated by the US government every day. I don&#39;t think Cuba is any different. Give me a link and I&#39;ll bet I&#39;ll find loopholes.

Freedom of speech doesn&#39;t exist. It never has and it never will. Sorry&#33;
Excuse me?
RedZeppelin

The United States sponsors military regimes which ban free speech.
But those regimes must be there to begin with. Besides, you&#39;re against freedom of speech too.

Communism was not a strong threat in the United States due to higher standards of living here and plenty of propaganda.
Examples of this propaganda?
Andy Bowden

1 - Castro did not come to power on a "wave of executions". He came to power on the back of a popular revolution - even his detractors admit this, though claim he "betrayed" such a revolution. The executions carried out where far less brutal than under Batista
Cuter and cuddlier executions?

and were justified considering the crimes the Regime had carried out.
It&#39;s a safe bet those executed weren&#39;t all part of the former regime, but those who didn&#39;t want Castro there either.

If I had been accepting money from Saddam Hussein, or some other enemy of the UK I would be locked up without protest - similar laws exist in Cuba, for the defence against a regime - which as the case of Luis Posada Carilles shows - has a history of terrorism against the Cuban people.
That&#39;s besides the point. If any "free Cuba" campaign was successful, the ruling elite would no longer be able to keep control. Hence the need for brutal repression and the prevention of free speech, reflected in the government banning the ownership of computers (to prevent "unauthorized opinions" no doubt). You don&#39;t suppose Castro&#39;s got something to hide, has he? Why else would he go to such lengths to shut people up? Combine those facts with the notion of Cuba being a wonderful place to live and something doesn&#39;t quite add up.

[Andy Bowden]

1- Not "cuter and cuddler" executions - less executions, and targeted against the people who were guilty of crimes.

2 - Can you provide any cases of people who were killed merely because they oppossed Castro?

3 - The fact that the dissidents accept money from the US is entirely the point - if they really wanted to free Cuba, then is it not rather low and hypocritical to take money from a govt which - as the Luis Posada Carilles case shows - harbours and defends Terrorists who have been murdering the people you are alleging to help free?

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

But those regimes must be there to begin with. Besides, you&#39;re against freedom of speech too.

Not always.
The military coup in &#39;73 Chile that placed Pinochet in power was executed with the help of the CIA.
Same case in &#39;64 in Brazil.

I&#39;m not against free speech in capitalism, because I inherently condemn the system.
I am, however, in favor of suppressing reaction by any means in a socialist society.
What you don&#39;t get is that capitalist nations will go to equally extreme measures to suppress the communist threat. This is a given, though. Of course they&#39;re gonna do that.
I simply understand the obvious suppression of free speech that takes place in any society. You, however, seem too daft to grap this basic concept.


Examples of this propaganda?

see Truman&#39;s 1950 &#39;Campaign of Truth" against communism&#39;s "big lie"
That&#39;s just one example.

[KC]

Yeah terrible. Pity it&#39;s unconsitutional.

Pity it doesn&#39;t matter.



I&#39;ve read the US constitution too, which is violated by the US government every day. I don&#39;t think Cuba is any different. Give me a link and I&#39;ll bet I&#39;ll find loopholes.

http://www.cubanet.org/ref/dis/const_92_e.htm



Excuse me?

Are you having a reading problem? Freedom of speech has never existed and it never will.

[Tungsten]

Enigma

You are clearly very ignorant of this topic;
Not in the slightest.

the vast expanse in, lifestyle between those who have, and who do not have, in Latin American countries is very well documented.
Irrelevent to the argument, though. Stuff first needs to be produced before it can be redistributed anyone else and it&#39;s that resitribution that discourages productivity.

I haven&#39;t cited any economic theories, phoney or otherwise. So you are quite correct ‘they’ won’t get very far with you, indeed, ‘they’ probably won’t even get to you.
You&#39;ve impied that you eschew a redistribution of wealth, which is a socialist policy.
RedZeppelin

I&#39;m not against free speech in capitalism, because I inherently condemn the system.
I am, however, in favor of suppressing reaction by any means in a socialist society.
In other words, you&#39;ve against freedom of speech, provided that the opinions coincide with your own. How egotisitcal.

What you don&#39;t get is that capitalist nations will go to equally extreme measures to suppress the communist threat.
Communism poses an existential threat.

I simply understand the obvious suppression of free speech that takes place in any society. You, however, seem too daft to grap this basic concept.
Who&#39;s preventing you from speaking now?

see Truman&#39;s 1950 &#39;Campaign of Truth" against communism&#39;s "big lie"
That&#39;s just one example.
You need to go back to the 50&#39;s to find an example? :lol:
Lazar

http://www.cubanet.org/ref/dis/const_92_e.htm
ARTICLE 5. The Communist Party of Cuba, a follower of Martí’s ideas and of Marxism-Leninism, and the organized vanguard of the Cuban nation, is the highest leading force of society and of the state, which organizes and guides the common effort toward the goals of the construction of socialism and the progress toward a communist society,

Now we&#39;ve established who is running the show, how are these ends to be achieved? Who knows. No limit is suggested.

b) as the power of the people and for the people, guarantees

- that every man or woman, who is able to work, have the opportunity to have a job with which to contribute to the good of society and to the satisfaction of individual needs;

- that no disabled person be left without adequate mean of subsistence;

- that no sick person be left without medical care;

- that no child be left without schooling, food and clothing;

- that no young person be left without the opportunity to study;

- that no one be left without access to studies, culture and sports;

Who is paying for all of this and what happens when they don&#39;t?

The expropriation of property for reasons of public benefit or social interest and with due compensation is authorized.

In other words, the government can take whatever it wants from whoever it wants (and presumably give in compensation an amount decided by the government).

Citizens have freedom of speech and of the press in keeping with the objectives of socialist society. Material conditions for the exercise of that right are provided by the fact that the press, radio, television, cinema, and other mass media are state or social property and can never be private property. This assures their use at exclusive service of the working people and in the interests of society.

The law regulated the exercise of those freedoms.

I like the get-out clause at the end. :lol:

The home is inviolable. Nobody can enter the home of another against his will, except in those cases foreseen by law.

Such as when the government needs a few bucks.

Treason against one’s country is the most serious of crimes; those who commit it are subject to the most severe penalties.

What&#39;s the definition of treason? What&#39;s the bet it encompasses disagreeing with the government.


Are you having a reading problem? Freedom of speech has never existed and it never will.
Where is it forbidden? Assuming it&#39;s the US we&#39;re talking about.

[Ownthink]

Where is it forbidden? Assuming it&#39;s the US we&#39;re talking about.
Well, for one thing, I can&#39;t yell "Fire&#33;" in a crowded theater. I can&#39;t threaten to kill the president, I can&#39;t say a large amount of things in America. Trust me, go around saying things detrimental to the State and you will get a little visit from DHS or the FBI.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

In other words, you&#39;ve against freedom of speech, provided that the opinions coincide with your own. How egotisitcal.

I&#39;m in favor of suppressing political agendas of reaction and class dominance in order to protect socialism.

Kind of like you, or intelligent capitalists perhaps, are in favor of suppressing revolution and working class emancipation to protect the status quo.
However, I&#39;m sure most capitalists are against Cuba&#39;s, for example, suppression of capitalists "struggling for a free market" etc. bullshit.


Communism poses an existential threat.

If by that you mean that our movement poses a threat to the existence of the current ruling class and its institutions, then yes, you would be correct.


Who&#39;s preventing you from speaking now?

This discussion doesn&#39;t really threaten the United States, does it?


You need to go back to the 50&#39;s to find an example? :lol:

But I did prove you wrong, did I not?
Try doing some research yourself, and I&#39;m sure you will find plenty of more instances of American propaganda against communism since the 50s.

Red Nightmare was done when? 1963?

[Invader Zim]

You&#39;ve impied that you eschew a redistribution of wealth, which is a socialist policy.

Pardon? That statement makes no sense what so ever, you misuse the word eschew. How can I eschew the redistribution of wealth? I am no politician or banker; short of leaving the nation I cannot eschew any redistribution of wealth. I can agree/disagree with a specific method of redistribution, but I cannot avoid it.

Oh and redistribution of wealth is not a socialist principal, any more than it is a capitalist principal. A collectivised redistribution of wealth is a traditional feature of some socialist societies, but others are not the same. A capitalist would prefer redistribution of wealth to benefit the individual rather than the collective; this does not alter the fact that it is a redistribution compared to the current pattern.

I do not wish to make a &#39;guess&#39; regarding quite what you are trying to imply, I would rather you correct your statement or at least add clarifcation.

[KC]

But I did prove you wrong, did I not?
Try doing some research yourself, and I&#39;m sure you will find plenty of more instances of American propaganda against communism since the 50s.

Red Nightmare was done when? 1963?

Tianenmen Square Massacre.

[bezdomni]

Define a "successful communist country".

Sucessful does not necessarily mean good. The Soviet Union was a lot more free than Russia under the Czar (people were granted equal rights, universal healthcare, women were allowed to work for the same wage as men and vote...etc), Cuba now is a lot more free than Batista&#39;s Cuba (again, healthcare, right to vote, gender equality, constitution..etc), even China under Mao was more free than China under the Dynasty.


Hell, Soviet Russia in 1918 was more free than America in 1918. Racial, ethnic and religious minorities (like jews) were considered equal, very contrary to the way blacks were treated in the US. Most people were able to get healthcare (although it was crappy) in Russia, while people were sick in the US like mad.

In many aspects, these attempts at socialism were extremely progressive socially, and even though they did ultimately fail (due to problems that are widely debated amongst communists and capitalists alike), those parts of the world will never be the same, for better and for worse.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by Bugalu [email protected] 8 2005, 04:30 PM
Britain, USA, Germany, Japan etc.. etc... Sucessfull capitalist countries..

Now name a communist one you nasty little *****..
Those arent sucessful unless you got money in them.

Youre talking about some overall economic bullshit. Im not no damn economist, Im a person, and Im talking about sucess for the people. Im not so sure how sucessful Germany is as a capitalist country when they have adopted many socialist ideas into their very mixed economy.

And USA ......a ghetto for every city? What the hell kind of sucess are you talking about?&#33;

White, middle class biased half full sucess?&#33;

That isnt sucess, thats exactly what I said it was.

[Guerrilla22]

Britain, USA, Germany, Japan etc.. etc... Sucessfull capitalist countries..

Last time I checked the US was in massive debt.

[Kalki Avatar]

I didn&#39;t read posts beyond the first page so if someone mentioned this I apologize. What about vietnam?

And what are you definitions of &#39;success&#39;?

If you define success purely as economic wealth then you might well be right but there are plenty of other ways to define it, perhaps taking care of your people is a defintion of success, or improving the education and health care system is another definition of success.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by Kalki [email protected] 15 2005, 07:41 PM
I didn&#39;t read posts beyond the first page so if someone mentioned this I apologize. What about vietnam?

And what are you definitions of &#39;success&#39;?

If you define success purely as economic wealth then you might well be right but there are plenty of other ways to define it, perhaps taking care of your people is a defintion of success, or improving the education and health care system is another definition of success.
ahahahahaaha

read the past pages please

[ReD_ReBeL]

hmm this question is far to broad succsess can be defined in all different forms. How is USa successful? i wouldent classify thm as successful there nothing good of having 10% of the country well off while all the others live in shit. and here r some facts bout USA, 40millions people do not have health care and 3million are homeless, yes very successful(sarcasim), though in Cuba, free health care for all(health, dental, eye) free education, have doctors in the poorest parts of Africa, carribean countries send patients over to Cuba for free eye surgery, altho the people may not be rich there is hardly any homelessness, and for the fact that ppl try to excape Cuba look at the statistics , people who try to flee Cuba only make up 1% of the population.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 08:13 AM

Britain, USA, Germany, Japan etc.. etc... Sucessfull capitalist countries..

Last time I checked the US was in massive debt.
Nor is it, or the others mentioned, a capitalist country by strict definition. They are mixed economies.

[ReD_ReBeL]

Capitalism doesnt work&#33; its simple. 30 years ago british usto be relatively left wing with the Labour Party( im not saying communist or pure socialist, but mebe slightly democratic socialist). Under labour 30 years ago 1 in 10 children were poor in britain, now that statistic has gone to 1 in 3 children are poor under New Labours conservative policies. Within the &#39;rich western countries&#39; the poor is getting poorer and the rich is getting richer. Britain is at a record high now with the gap between rich and poor.

[kingbee]

Originally posted by Enigma+Dec 15 2005, 10:11 PM--> (Enigma @ Dec 15 2005, 10:11 PM)
[email protected] 15 2005, 08:13 AM

Britain, USA, Germany, Japan etc.. etc... Sucessfull capitalist countries..

Last time I checked the US was in massive debt.
Nor is it, or the others mentioned, a capitalist country by strict definition. They are mixed economies. [/b]
but surely a marxist definition of a capitalist economy is one where the bourgeois control the economy and own the means of production. therefore, all the above countries are capitalist.

[Krank]

Anyone who sais sovietunionen 1917-1956 haven&#39;t studied enough.

The communistic society will not fall because of pro-capitalist influenses in the state. You know why? The state is DEAD. During the dictatorship of the proletariat we may discover a somewhat weakness against internal pro-capitalistic forces, but once we&#39;ve reached COMMUNISM it doesn&#39;t really matter. It&#39;s like saying we may return to slavery or the feudal society because of some president. At least, if we are marxists, and i hope we are.

BTT: I can&#39;t do that. We haven&#39;t seen anything like that yet. What we have seen is countries, stuck in the socialistic progress towards communism, stuck in the dictatorship of the proletariat, and this have, unfortunately in many places, after some years/decades turned out to be mor or less a disaster.

[visceroid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 07:13 AM

Britain, USA, Germany, Japan etc.. etc... Sucessfull capitalist countries..

Last time I checked the US was in massive debt.
but the argument doesnt work anyway, considering before the five year plans, russia was a backwards agrarian country that suffered frequent famines, while britain and germany had been imperialist countries for hundreds of years. considering it took 20 years for russia to become a formidable opponent to the united states of america, both economically and militarily, that is quite a stunning success. if that is a way you want to define it.