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Hegemonicretribution
23rd November 2005, 20:02
First of all, a few notes: This is written in response to the many repetitive, counter-productive and flame inducing threads that have occured unecessarily. Many of these threads have been a direct result of a basic semantics issue, and two (or more) unrelated and lines of argument have been presented, with neither group ever replying, in relation to what the other has said.

This is by no means conclusive, and does not cover issues such as implementation or sustainability in any depth, if indeed at all. If this proves successful I shall attempt a much harder "communist's guide to capitalism"
and perhaps other attempts at clearling up common misrepresentation of expressions.

Marxism

First of all, and this has been addressed many times, Marxism is not the USSR, China, Cambodia, DPRK or any other common "examples of communism's failure." Whether or not this even constituted a transitory state is heavly contested by the left itself.

The complete implication of Marxist theory has never occurred, and even the existence of an attempt is not taken for granted. The final stage, communism, is a term not applicable whilst there are still remnants of class antagonisms, or problems resulting thereof. In essence, when you talk about communism, you are talking about something that until it is realised, can only be talked about hypothetically.

Private property rights

Within this framework there is still objections based on the view that communism (even in this "utopian" form) inherently reduces rights that can be "guaranteed" under capitalism. These are of course private property rights.

A common view is that Marxism seeks a reduction, or even abolution of private property rights, this is not the case however. Marxism is not concerned with private property rights at all, just the concept of property which it does seek to abolish.

You may well ask why this is necessary, or even if a concept can be abolished. So I will provide a little background. The reason that the concept of private property needs to be abolished is because it necessitates class atagonism, something that few advocate in an ideal society. Unless equal ownership existed along with private property, there would obviously be those with more than others. If you combine this with a society, to which a drive to succeed and inherent greed are a part, then you create the conditions under which conflict is assured. Capitalism is necessary when these conditions exist, and is neither superior, nor inferior to communism in its dealings with these problems. The problem of finite resources and inherent human greed aren't addressed by communism (it simply isn't relevant) because it is a society that can only exist once the source of these problems has been erradicated. The cause of these problems is not people's rights, or lackof, regarding private property, but the very notion of private property itself.

The actual abolution (or even creation) of concepts is a more difficult issue to explain. As I stated I am not going to discuss in any depth the application of Marxist theory, however a small amount of explanation is also necessary here. First of all it is important to realise that concepts can, and have been created throughout history, and are not neccessarily absolute. J.S. Mill talked of the incomprehensibility of one society's laws and customs (prevailing ideas) to that of another, often where custom has become an end in itself and has in fact become more favourable than reason. Expression of these ideas is largely through language, and language has and will evolve to meet the needs of its society. A gradual, and sometimes revolutionary change has occurred on many occassions in the prevailing ideas and customs of any given society. Marxism seeks to steer this progression a particular way, so that concepts that are counter-productive to a sustainable and favourable society (such as private property, inequality, or other ideas arising from poor material conditions) cease to even exist, and where neccessary replace it with more benificial concepts. Benificial is a term not used subjectively, as essentially there are no classes or groups that would benifit any more from a suggested proposal.

There is still obviosly debate in general that can not only exist from this description of Marxism, but is in fact required. Practical application, maintanence and economic implications are still discussed. This was only an attempt to clraify some areas that in my observations I saw largely unaddressed. Feedback and suggestions would be appreciated and if there is an area I could add I would like to here, because I will put this as an article submission when it is finished.

Cheers Dale aka hegemonicretribution

dakewlguy
23rd November 2005, 20:06
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 08:07 PM

Marxism

First of all, and this has been addressed many times, Marxism is not the USSR, China, Cambodia, DPRK or any other common "examples of communism's failure." Whether or not this even constituted a transitory state is heavly contested by the left itself.

Stalin, Lenin, Mao, et al would disagree. What makes you right and them - people who have dedicated their lifes to Marxism - wrong?

Hegemonicretribution
23rd November 2005, 21:11
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 08:11 PM
Stalin, Lenin, Mao, et al would disagree. What makes you right and them - people who have dedicated their lifes to Marxism - wrong?
All I said about these places is they are, and never were communist in the way that I, or Marx for that matter defined it. This was an attempt at coming up with a similar idea of what is being expressed through the terms Marxism and communism, you largely missed the point.

What makes me or a capitalist that thinks Canada is communist right or wrong? They are expressing ideas through their word use that will be different to those that are communicated because the other interperets the term differently.

Who is right and wrong does not really matter, this is a trivial detail, however for discussion to take place (as in here) it is benificial if groups know exactly what they are supporting or attacking, and what is being made reference to when something is said.

People may have devoted their lives to what they called Marxism, or even may have been Marxism, but the proccess has never been completed. A state, and the concept of ownership existed in all caes, as did class antagonisms.

Any capitalist, or even communist response to this?

kurt
23rd November 2005, 22:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 08:11 PM
Stalin, Lenin, Mao, et al would disagree. What makes you right and them - people who have dedicated their lifes to Marxism - wrong?
The fact that they tried to implement revolutionary "will" in the absence of objective material conditions.

Hegemonicretribution
24th November 2005, 15:35
Come on guys, is there truly no interest here? Is this forum, as I suspected, just a place where people can make themselves feel superior because in essence what they are talking about is different to what others are talking about? Does this forum essentially exist to accomodate the inflamitorary nature of mis-represented posts? Or is this actually about discussion and learning?

I am surprised to not see even one response to the article from a communist. Avoidance by many (but it has to be said, not all) right wing members was expected, as a direct result of inherent bias towards a fairer representation of ideas they have learned to hate, partially through indoctrination and also through misunderstanding. I did think that at least one leftie member would criticise my notion of what Marxism is.

Invader Zim
24th November 2005, 15:49
Originally posted by dakewlguy+Nov 23 2005, 09:11 PM--> (dakewlguy @ Nov 23 2005, 09:11 PM)
[email protected] 23 2005, 08:07 PM

Marxism

First of all, and this has been addressed many times, Marxism is not the USSR, China, Cambodia, DPRK or any other common "examples of communism's failure." Whether or not this even constituted a transitory state is heavly contested by the left itself.

Stalin, Lenin, Mao, et al would disagree. What makes you right and them - people who have dedicated their lifes to Marxism - wrong? [/b]
What makes you right and them - people who have dedicated their lifes to Marxism - wrong?

The fact that they didn't follow Marx's teachings, it's there in black and white for anybody to read.

dakewlguy
24th November 2005, 18:42
Originally posted by Enigma+Nov 24 2005, 03:54 PM--> (Enigma @ Nov 24 2005, 03:54 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 09:11 PM

[email protected] 23 2005, 08:07 PM

Marxism

First of all, and this has been addressed many times, Marxism is not the USSR, China, Cambodia, DPRK or any other common "examples of communism's failure." Whether or not this even constituted a transitory state is heavly contested by the left itself.

Stalin, Lenin, Mao, et al would disagree. What makes you right and them - people who have dedicated their lifes to Marxism - wrong?
What makes you right and them - people who have dedicated their lifes to Marxism - wrong?

The fact that they didn't follow Marx's teachings, it's there in black and white for anybody to read. [/b]
Isn't that the same argument they used against their critics at the time? We follow Marx orthodoxly, you critics do not.

Invader Zim
24th November 2005, 19:16
Originally posted by dakewlguy+Nov 24 2005, 07:47 PM--> (dakewlguy @ Nov 24 2005, 07:47 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 09:11 PM

[email protected] 23 2005, 08:07 PM

Marxism

First of all, and this has been addressed many times, Marxism is not the USSR, China, Cambodia, DPRK or any other common "examples of communism's failure." Whether or not this even constituted a transitory state is heavly contested by the left itself.

Stalin, Lenin, Mao, et al would disagree. What makes you right and them - people who have dedicated their lifes to Marxism - wrong?
What makes you right and them - people who have dedicated their lifes to Marxism - wrong?

The fact that they didn't follow Marx's teachings, it's there in black and white for anybody to read.
Isn't that the same argument they used against their critics at the time? We follow Marx orthodoxly, you critics do not. [/b]
No you certainly do not and neither did Lenin and neither did his successors.

As for you I am willing to bet you have never read a line of Marx in your life, certainly not to the point where you could claim that you even understand what orthadox Marxism actually is.

One major point which seperates real Marxism from the fake bullshit cooked up by Stalin is regarding 'socialism in one country', Marxism is international, the Stalinist take on marxism refers to the concept of Marxism in one country.

Not to mention that a dictatorship is the complete antithesis of Marx's teachings.

Try reading before spouting.


Isn't that the same argument they used against their critics at the time?

No, Lenin was making 'advances' on Marxism. Lenin, in short was a 'reformist', in the absolute sense of the word.

Hegemonicretribution
24th November 2005, 19:25
Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 07:21 PM
No, Lenin was making 'advances' on Marxism. Lenin, in short was a 'reformist', in the absolute sense of the word.

You mean "revisionist"?

Also dakewlguy, you only resonded to one minor asect of the post, the original ost kind of answered your question for you, and then three other posts in other ways. Why did you only resond to one of the criticisms?

dakewlguy
24th November 2005, 19:27
Originally posted by Enigma+Nov 24 2005, 07:21 PM--> (Enigma @ Nov 24 2005, 07:21 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 09:11 PM

[email protected] 23 2005, 08:07 PM

Marxism

First of all, and this has been addressed many times, Marxism is not the USSR, China, Cambodia, DPRK or any other common "examples of communism's failure." Whether or not this even constituted a transitory state is heavly contested by the left itself.

Stalin, Lenin, Mao, et al would disagree. What makes you right and them - people who have dedicated their lifes to Marxism - wrong?
What makes you right and them - people who have dedicated their lifes to Marxism - wrong?

The fact that they didn't follow Marx's teachings, it's there in black and white for anybody to read.
Isn't that the same argument they used against their critics at the time? We follow Marx orthodoxly, you critics do not.
No you certainly do not and neither did Lenin and neither did his successors.

As for you I am willing to bet you have never read a line of Marx in your life, certainly not to the point where you could claim that you even understand what orthadox Marxism actually is.

One major point which seperates real Marxism from the fake bullshit cooked up by Stalin is regarding 'socialism in one country', Marxism is international, the Stalinist take on marxism refers to the concept of Marxism in one country.

Not to mention that a dictatorship is the complete antithesis of Marx's teachings.

Try reading before spouting.


Isn't that the same argument they used against their critics at the time?

No, Lenin was making 'advances' on Marxism. Lenin, in short was a 'reformist', in the absolute sense of the word. [/b]
Hey buddy click my sig, I wasn't saying I follow Marism orthodoxly. I was stating what you argued, which is exactly what Stalin, Lenin, etc, also used when attacking their critics.

dakewlguy
24th November 2005, 19:30
Originally posted by Hegemonicretribution+Nov 24 2005, 07:30 PM--> (Hegemonicretribution @ Nov 24 2005, 07:30 PM)
[email protected] 24 2005, 07:21 PM
No, Lenin was making 'advances' on Marxism. Lenin, in short was a 'reformist', in the absolute sense of the word.

You mean "revisionist"?

Also dakewlguy, you only resonded to one minor asect of the post, the original ost kind of answered your question for you, and then three other posts in other ways. Why did you only resond to one of the criticisms? [/b]
Just because I don't have much to say about it really. It's a good introduction, steering away from 'surplus value' is also a good thing simply because capitalists don't recognise such a concept existing.

Invader Zim
24th November 2005, 20:14
Originally posted by Hegemonicretribution+Nov 24 2005, 08:30 PM--> (Hegemonicretribution @ Nov 24 2005, 08:30 PM)
[email protected] 24 2005, 07:21 PM
No, Lenin was making 'advances' on Marxism. Lenin, in short was a 'reformist', in the absolute sense of the word.

You mean "revisionist"?
[/b]
You are perfectly correct, I do apologise.