China

[RadicalLeft62]

I have been reading recently a lot about China, and it seems like its pretty much gone to the rats. Yes, it does have the world largest standing army, and a rapid economic growth. But what about the fact that China underpays its workers for cheap overseas labor and the GDP per capita in China is 1,300 USD. Im confused and could use some clearing up on this issue(s).

[which doctor]

China is a capitalist country that calls themself communist. They do have a large standing army, that is abad thing, it means they can exert power and influence. China has a new class of people coming up that is quite wealthy by chinese standards. They also exploit there own people. They even have wal-marts and McDonalds in china. Never say they are a communist country because all they do is give a bad name to communism.

[DisIllusion]

China is a capitalist country that calls themself communist. They do have a large standing army, that is abad thing, it means they can exert power and influence. China has a new class of people coming up that is quite wealthy by chinese standards. They also exploit there own people. They even have wal-marts and McDonalds in china. Never say they are a communist country because all they do is give a bad name to communism.

I agree comrade, China is just another capitalist state wrapped up in a red flag. They are whoring themselves out to the capitalist countries by allowing them to set up sweatshops in China and base large corporations on Chinese soil.

[Iconoclast]

I believe China may have the worst form of government on our earth: a mix of the totalitarian dictatorship element present in pseudo-communist states like the Stalinist USSR along with free-market capitalism and trade being valued over all else.

The fact that they have a large military is also frightening. Just be glad the United States military has the nuclear weapons and the navy to hold them back, hopefully for the next few hundred years....

[Janus]

Yes, I agree that China has turned its back on socialism since Deng took power. But much of the exploitation and corruption is till located mainly in the cities. In interior China, the governmental system is still very socialist in manner with must local control and freedom in the hands of the peasants. Therefore, you can't accuse all of China of betraying communism. It only seems so because much of the focus of the Chinese government and the foreign press have switched to the major cities from the countyside.

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 01:45 AM
I believe China may have the worst form of government on our earth: a mix of the totalitarian dictatorship element present in pseudo-communist states like the Stalinist USSR along with free-market capitalism and trade being valued over all else.

The fact that they have a large military is also frightening. Just be glad the United States military has the nuclear weapons and the navy to hold them back, hopefully for the next few hundred years....
Wow... this kids likes to exagerrate.

Totalitarian and stalinist are not he words to describe today's China anymore. And China throuhgout history is never an imperialist but an exploited victim. The whole country , from government to the lowest peasants, never have the fit to go war with another country unless someone attacks them. :D

[Correa]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 24 2005, 03:07 PM
Yes, I agree that China has turned its back on socialism since Deng took power. But much of the exploitation and corruption is till located mainly in the cities. In interior China, the governmental system is still very socialist in manner with must local control and freedom in the hands of the peasants. Therefore, you can't accuse all of China of betraying communism. It only seems so because much of the focus of the Chinese government and the foreign press have switched to the major cities from the countyside.
If that is the case then the peasants need to split from the rulers and declare civil war before the rural areas are lost to capitalism as well. This is an odd scenario are you sure of this?

[Fidelbrand]

Correa,

I fully agree with you. But the PRC is making big steps in eradicating this odd situation. Agarian reforms are executed and lots of fund transfers are made to help with this situation.

Afterall, I suggest we give it some time as the country is devastated in the late Mao era. Globalization has helped PRC to get rich in the first instance, and the PRC at this stage is NOt doing nothing.

[fpeppett]

A bit off topic, but who hear considers any of the communist countries from the past or present truly 'communist'? To me, no country that his proclaimed itself communist, has ever actually been a communist country

[Punk Rocker]

A bit off topic, but who hear considers any of the communist countries from the past or present truly 'communist'? To me, no country that his proclaimed itself communist, has ever actually been a communist country

No country has ever claimed that they reached communism. There are socialist countries, which capitalist dumbasses in the US like to call "communist countries".

There cannot be a communist state, because in communism there is no state.

[metalero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 12:45 PM
Just be glad the United States military has the nuclear weapons and the navy to hold them back, hopefully for the next few hundred years....


:lol: why do you rely on the bloodiest empire on history (that is using its weapons against civilians in other countries) to do this?

[fpeppett]

No country has ever claimed that they reached communism. There are socialist countries, which capitalist dumbasses in the US like to call "communist countries".

I understand present countries are being labelled communist by the west and the likes of Cuba were also, but take Russia for exaMple, they proclaimed they were communist for years, but to me, never really achieved communism.

[Punk Rocker]

I understand present countries are being labelled communist by the west and the likes of Cuba were also, but take Russia for exaMple, they proclaimed they were communist for years

Russia was lead by a communist party, but they never claimed they had reached communism.

Kickass picture by the way, Chavez is a great socialist revolutionary, definatley the best world leader right now.

[Guerrilla22]

Pretty soon all of China's businesses and industry will be privately owned. The west will refer to it as "progress" and try to take credit for the dismantling of the socialist system there.

[Xiao Banfa]

China progressed from revisionist deformed socialism to outright capitalism in an unbelievable amount of time. You guys should read "The restoration of capitalism in China" by the ex Workers' Party of New Zealand chairman, Ray Nunes.
China had amazingly progressive upheavals during the Cultural Revolution.
But it was the first time Marxist-Leninism had been tried in that country. So, fucking hell people should give them a chance.
However I think we should give modern China a bit of chance. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be struggles but one should be wary of a reactionary regime subservient to US imperialism of the kind that emerged in the eastern European states after the collapse of socialism.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 05:45 PM
The fact that they have a large military is also frightening. Just be glad the United States military has the nuclear weapons and the navy to hold them back, hopefully for the next few hundred years....
You find the right to self-defence frightening? I've never seen somebody here support yankee imperialism so blatantly.

As for China... well, I'm afraid I'm going to have to let someone from Soviet-Empire say something I completely concur with again, because he can put it in words much better than I can. This time, the honour goes to ComradeRyan.


Okay Dtenko brings up an interesting topic, China. Though I will ignore his post because he deficient in daily vitamen intake.

I would like to remind you that the US government along with its allies and especially NATO are organizing a campaign to discredit china and attack it from both the right-wing and left-wing of the country.

Remember that story about 2 maoists getting arrested? Well this article was specifically put out for a specific reason; to get communists and whatnot of the west to hate china. We should examine; millions apon millions of people get arrested every year, my friends get arrested here in canada however none of them make the paper there is not condemnation of a cracking down of freedom of speech etc etc.

Second; that article which I am talking about fails to mention that these maoists were handing out leaflets that specifically asked for people to riot against the government. I don't know what country allows people to legally incite riots.

I could go into further depth but we need to question why this specific article was printed and why there is a specific campaign to go against this.

The US and its Allies are organizing this campaign for socialists and communists to view china as not socialist or communist, and at the other end for capitalists and fascists to view china as evil communists.

So in a sense they are trying to make the whole of western society antagonistically opposed to china.

The Dalai Lama is under the pay role of the CIA for a reason, a religious cult which is based out of New York created in the early 1990s somehow is so rich that its got a daily newspaper which it gives out for free everyday, not to the Falan Gong sabotage and try to incite riots all over China. So its also making religious groups outside of china to stand against china on this basis.

Countless movies and whatnot potray the courts ruling with military generals and all you need to do is be a friend of a general to get out of crimes, and theres troops marching all over china, etc etc. a bunch of bullshit that if you play this in china they would be insulted by viewing these movies.

You need to understand there is a fierce propaganda campaign against china on all these levels.

Is China socialist? I would argue for the most part yes. Revisionist or whatever its not the right of American scholars and whatnot to tell the chinese people they are stupid and abandoning the ways of mao. It is for the people of China to sort out.

The revolution in China was an Anti-Imperialist revolution first and a socialist revolution second.

On top of that there are more prisoners right now in America a nation of 300 million then china a nation of 1.3 billion.

In america the prison population is 1.9 million as of 2001, in China in the same year it was 1.4 million

[Janus]

[QUOTE]This is an odd scenario are you sure of this?

Yeah, I'm sure. The government has just ignored the countryside. However, they never forget to tax the peasants. But I don't think much capitalism will move into the interior anytime soon since the government recognizes that the agricultural land is needed in order to sustain the populace.

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 03:09 PM
Pretty soon all of China's businesses and industry will be privately owned. The west will refer to it as "progress" and try to take credit for the dismantling of the socialist system there.
That's a rather shallow blather. If all businesess are privately owned, how would the Communist Party stand in the state?

So called" capitalist progress" is underway. but the PRC Government is still in charge of the situation with its fiscal and government policies.

[Fidelbrand]

And at the risk of appearing nationalist, I very much like China's slogan: "peaceful development".
I trust them .
They are still a communist party.....the chance to invade another country out of the thirst to exploit and exihibit imperialism is very low for China. The whole bloody Confucian/Communist broad-up made Chinese relatively less imperialistic.
The only possible enemy I think is Japan.... they have been stirring shits again us. And if they fucks up with us, i shall join the People's Liberation Army.

[Correa]

The Japanese themselves pose no threat to China. Japan's armed forces have been kept at a minimum since Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I hear the people in Japan get upset at any attempt to increase the military budget. I guess it brings back bad memories of war or something.

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by Fidelbrand+Nov 28 2005, 05:31 AM--> (Fidelbrand @ Nov 28 2005, 05:31 AM)
[email protected] 27 2005, 03:09 PM
Pretty soon all of China's businesses and industry will be privately owned. The west will refer to it as "progress" and try to take credit for the dismantling of the socialist system there.
That's a rather shallow blather. If all businesess are privately owned, how would the Communist Party stand in the state?

So called" capitalist progress" is underway. but the PRC Government is still in charge of the situation with its fiscal and government policies. [/b]
Actually it's reality. More and more businesses are becoming privately owned and the remaining state owned businesses are bewcoming stagnent and ineffective. The communist party in China really isn't all that communist after all are they if they allowed privately owned businesses to exist in their state. It seems to me they don't care what happens just so long as they maintain power and the country is prosperous.

[Janus]

[QUOTE]I hear the people in Japan get upset at any attempt to increase the military budget. I guess it brings back bad memories of war or something.

I don't think that it's the people who object to the increase of the Japanese military budget but that their military budget is regulated and it can obly be 1% of the total budget. However, for a mjor economic power like Japan, that's still quite a lot of money. However, I did hear that the Japanese are ashamed of their military because of its defeat in World War II.

[Correa]

Yeah, that sounds about right then.

[Fidelbrand]

Actually it's reality. More and more businesses are becoming privately owned and the remaining state owned businesses are bewcoming stagnent and ineffective.

Yes, more private businesses are mushrooming in China.

No country has been communist, USSR and Mao's PRC were at most socialist, towards the direction of communism but not quite yet. Communist parties, now and back in the old days, strive to be communist, but were never communist....so I think it unfair to say that " The communist party in China really isn't all that communist after all are they if they allowed privately owned businesses to exist in their state."

For contmeporary China, comrades say it is a kind of state-capitalism, I agree in some sense, but i would rather call it "socialism" of some sort.


It seems to me they don't care what happens

As a Chinese living in my motherland, I disagree with that.


just so long as they maintain power and the country is prosperous.

this we can guage, but not conclude. We have a handful of clean and increasingly un-corrupted bench of officials who strive to work for the "people". Hu Jintao's democratic centralism introduced years ago is working its way for more effective and effcient governance.

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 01:55 PM
The Japanese themselves pose no threat to China. Japan's armed forces have been kept at a minimum since Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I hear the people in Japan get upset at any attempt to increase the military budget. I guess it brings back bad memories of war or something.
You know about their attempt to change the constitution?

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article328708.ece
or
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/2...nstitution.html (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20051121-2157-japan-constitution.html)

[tatu]

The Chinese government has pledged to fight corruption within its party.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2...tent_423395.htm (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-03/09/content_423395.htm)


The CPC has connected many of the once cut-off rural towns and villages by constructing highways and roads.

http://www.china.org.cn/english/GS-e/146344.htm
http://www.china.org.cn/english/2003/May/64719.htm

And while the west has been "talking" about "dropping the debt", China has dropped the debt, US $1.27 billion to be exact, back in 2003.

http://www.warmafrica.com/index/geo/1/cat/5/a/a/artid/439
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3321005.stm

[Guerrilla22]

As a Chinese living in my motherland, I disagree with that.

Perhaps this is not all encompassing, I'm no expert o the Chinese governmnet, so there may be some officials in the Chinese government still dedicated to Mao's original path, however there are definitely those who have and continue to sell out this path in the name of so called progress. Who is benefitting from China's move to capitalism? The people?

[bolshevik butcher]

China, is the workshop of the world. Mutch of the worlds production takes place in south east asia and mutch of the worlds population lives there, so it's vital that marxists are able to analyze the situatin unfolding there.

I remember reading earleir this yr of peasants resisting against government forces trying to violentally remove them from their land. I dont think that this is an isolated incident as the media presented it. It is likely the begging of a long struggle in china. It may have started in the peasants farmland but I think that as the chines population moves to the city it is inevitable that these battles should rememrge on a higher level. As the twentyfirst century progresses china is going to be a supwer power and the class struggle in china could show the contradictions of capitalism in their most acute forms.

[Correa]

No I was not aware of this. Even then couldn't China smite Japan easily?

[Guerrilla22]

Militarily yes, however there are other implications in doing this to consider, largely China's largest trading partner, the US.

[Correa]

Indeed, but with the US busy crusading in the Middle East what could they really do? I think China has the US by the balls economically since most of the yankee loans are borrowed from China. If the US and China would stop their trade stone cold, who would suffer the most?

[bolshevik butcher]

There would never be a direct confrontation between the U$ and china. Any war would be a mear proxy war, like the cold war. When boths dies have nuclear arms a direct ocnfrontation would probably mean the wiorlds destruction.

[Guerrilla22]

China doesn't want to/need to start a war with anyone. Let the US run up massive debt occupying Iraq and Afghanistan and watch them come for loans at the same time China holds a 14/1 trade imbalance.

[Janus]

Either way, China has turned from the socialist path. However, concerning the eviction of peasants, I believe that the government was trying to remove them from the lands that will be submerged by the Three Rivers Dam. Therefore, it wasn't a true eviction where they were trying just to benefit the rich because the power from that dam will help to meet China's demand for energy. Though I'm not sure if the whole dam business will work out and be a successful operation with the benefits outweighing the costs.