Is Colin Powell's evidence good enough?

[Show me the Money]

Is it?

[Show me the Money]

I think the transcripts(no actual live recordings) are not good enough to say that Iraq is violating resolution 1441, but the sattelite pictures?? (i haven't seen them)

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Why shouldn't we afraid of US nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and have to be of Iraqi ....weapons?

Have you read the ridiculous rules of 1441?

And now they also have to let U2's fly over Iraqi soil.

They also go to Saddam's castles, like someone is going to hide a nuclear installation at his home.

The previous UN team was corrupted, who says this team isn't? That Blix guy gets all cooperation wich he wants, but still he complains. In fact giving a start signal to the US warmachine.

In fact. I fear US weapons of mass destruction much more than Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. The US has more "interrests" to defend. While Iraq has almost none.

[Dhul Fiqar]

The US has but one reason to use those weapons, and that's if the survival of the regime is threatened by an invasion. Triggering those circumstances is basically a self-fulfilling prophecy...

---- G.

[loobylane]

The 'evidence' is far from conclusive and there was no mention of the main factor behind any possible action... I think that France and Russia showed a much more sensible view of the whole thing. GIVE THE INSPECTORS A CHANCE!

[Geddan]

The US stated that they will use nuclear weapons if Iraq would fire any suspicious missiles. Well, fighting fire with fire will spread the shit.

[trazom7]

i think that colin powell definately proved that iraq isn't as squeeky clean as they would like us to think. but i still have my reservations for declaring war? where was the evidence that americans were an immediate threat? some journalist was comparing it to the cuban missle crisis... but there americans found a full russian ground arsenal being assembled and effectively aimed at american soil. this just isn't the case in iraq. and i'm not buying that an appropriate punishment for them for not disarming is to go in and kill hundreds of saddam's pons and risk sheading american blood. sorry mr. powell. i'll buy the need for concern and further diplomacy... but i'll pass on the war.

an eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind

[The Sniper]

Hmmm, Colin Powell basically stated much of what we already know and this is supposed to the US's thrump card evidense against Iraq!!! What are they thinking all they have is very dodgy sat photos and some intercepted phone calls. Now we know already the US will fake media to support their arguements (Who remembers the Osama Bin Lardin tape) so why wouldnt they do it again. Also a major factor is they have showed no evidense that Iraq is likely to use these so called "weapons of mass destruction" soon or anytime at all. So why not give the inspectors more time!!!

[Revolution Hero]

Powell’s evidence consisted of pure words, which were based on falsified facts. Just think. If US had all proof of Iraq having any biological or nuclear weapons then why UN inspectors wasted their time searching for them? US must point the location of nuclear weapons factories or nuclear missiles place of custody if White House is confident about their proof. Did usa do this? NO, hence they didn’t prove anything.

What did UN inspectors do in Iraq? They didn’t only search for the illusive tracks of nuclear weapons, but they also spied, finding out the conditions of Iraq’s army, indicating its capability to fight the war etc. UN inspectors basically prepared usa for the war. Just think, why did usa gather its forces in Kuweit during inspectors’ mission? usa had decided everything long time ago.

Powell’s evidence is falsified. I will laugh at stupid usa state officials, when inspectors will not find anything in the mentioned location of weapons of mass destruction.

[LeonardoDaVinci]

What evidence?

[Disgustipated]

"Colon" Powell is a fucking travelling salesman for the Bush dynasty. He pitched more than a used car salesman.

[Blibblob]

The US is going to war, and nobody can stop it, now stop *****ing.

[CheViveToday]

I understand that the current whitehouse regime does not trust Sadaam. I think everyone can understand that. I don't trust him either. The fact that Sadaam lies about certain things is not surprising to me, and doesn't really scare me. HOWEVER, I don't trust Bush or Powell either. I don't doubt that they're lying just as much [if not more] than Hussein. Now THAT is what scares me. Go back to your Lone Star Republic monkey man, and leave the world' s people in peace.

[hawarameen]

Quote: from CCCP on 4:07 pm on Feb. 5, 2003
And now they also have to let U2's fly over Iraqi soil.

They also go to Saddam's castles, like someone is going to hide a nuclear installation at his home.



this shows how little people know about saddam because not only is this true but there is a rumour originating from somewhere back home that he hides weapon components in saddlebags of camels and they are driven round the desert led by shepards posing as nomadic tribes.

this is the kind of person you are dealing with, if this is not true I KNOW that this is something he would do.

this has gone far beyond trying to controll the playground rebel, there has been a little hitler in iraq for decades, you are all unaware of possibly 90% of the evil that saddam has carried out on his people.

[ID2002]

Hey, at least Saddam tried to shine some REAL light on US mentality. I would agree, OPEC is hungry for oil...and US ain't happy so they blow the hell outa Iraq...and fuck his people.

....Saddam, was right...the US hasn't learned anything from previous events. Go figure.

[Exploited Class]

I watched a bit of the broadcast today as it was happening. Of course I didn't write down word for word what was happening but a lot of it just didn't make sense.

Like Powell accusing Saddam of befriending Osama in 1990? The US befriended Osama and Saddam at some point too during the 80's. They heard that Saddam was happy or pleased at the bombing of US Cole. He didn't say he helped in any way just that he was pleased. So it was just an attack of his character, and I would suppose Saddam would be pleased, considering his country is under a lot of sanctions with U.S. planes bombing his country.

The pictures, I have seen them and unfortunetly I don't know what to make of satellite photos. I can't tell what is in the pictures or what is going on, sure he tells me what is happening, but that is just his explination of the events in the photos.

Then there is just this random picture of a plane that is evidently unmanned. It could be used to spread chemical weapons. I like how they say what things could be used for over and over again. Like yes this fork in my house could be used to kill somebody, it does have the potential, but doesn't mean it will be used for that. And if all the best spy agency in the world (CIA and NSA) could come up with is that one conversation... come on they should be able to pull up 60 conversations much better than that one. If that's all the information that the US needs to attack a country, then god help us all.

I just didn't see this being at all any kind of "smoking gun". Just a lot of hear say, stretching and sales technics, I expected Powell to say, "I can get you all into this war for an unbelievably low price today!"

[Tasha]

Like somebody already said if they knew the positions they would have bombed them or sent inspectors there. For all we know they are taking pictures of the US arsenal of chemical and biological weapons. Even if Iraq had the largest arsenal of chemical and biological weapons in the world it is not enough justification for an attack. The US pissed off alot of people due to their intimidation for oil across the world and now they create anti-american figures like saddam hussein. Funny thing they are looking for the same weapons they supplied him with to kill iranian civilians in the iran-iraq war.

[Mahdavikia]

the USA continue to mislead the world

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=ht...Flanguage_tools (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Ffr.news.yahoo.com%2F03020 6%2F202%2F318dh.html&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools)

[Larissa]

"Powell's threat to peace" taken from the VoteNoToWar web site:

"Colin Powell's presentation to the United Nations was an example of Alice in Wonderland-type propaganda. Reality has been turned upside down. At the very moment that Iraq, hobbled by 12 years of devastating sanctions and ongoing U.S. bombing, is surrounded by a heavily-armed invasion force of more than 100,000 troops, fighter aircraft, warships and high tech conventional missiles, and is threatened with a nuclear strike, Powell argued that Iraq poses a great threat to "peace."

The Pentagon has disclosed its plan to maintain peace by carrying out an opening blitzkrieg on Iraq of more than 3000 bombs and missiles in the first 48 hours. This plan is titled "Shock and Awe" by the administration. 300 to 400 Tomahawk cruise missiles will rip through Iraq on the first day of a U.S. assault, which is more than the number that were launched during the entire 40 days of the first Gulf War. On the second day, another 300 to 400 cruise missiles will be sent. "There will not be a safe place in Baghdad," said one Pentagon official. "The sheer size of this has never been seen before, never been contemplated before," the official said. One of the authors of the Shock and Awe plan stated the intent is, "So that you have this simultaneous effect, rather like the nuclear weapons at Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks but in minutes.'" (CBS News January 27, 2003, New York Times, February 2, 2003)

General Powell is routinely referred to in the media as the moderate or "dove" inside the Bush administration. It is important to remember that it is the same Colin Powell who, at a press briefing shortly after the conclusion of the 1991 Gulf War when asked his assessment of the number of Iraqi soldiers and civilians killed, which had been put at over 100,000, answered, "It's really not a number I'm terribly interested in."

Is there justification for war? What Bush's war places in jeopardy is enormous. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis may be slaughtered. Tens of thousands of service members will be sent to risk their lives. The economic cost, estimated between $200 billion to $2 trillion will loot the U.S. treasury and mortgage future generations, depleting funds that could provide essential human needs such as education, healthcare, childcare and jobs.
(AP/Mark Lennihan)


What circumstances could justify these certain risks and losses? None that were presented by Powell. Laying out his case, Powell presented no threat issued by Iraq against the U.S. or anyone else. Powell's presentation had a two-fold purpose. It was not merely to "make the case" for war, it was also intended to redirect the attention of the people of the U.S. away from the Bush administration's real objectives in recolonizing the Middle East. Using smoke and mirrors and misdirection, Powell engaged in dramatic fear-mongering, even going so far as to reference the anthrax attacks that originated in the U.S. from U.S. stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, to suggest that bombing Iraq will make the U.S. safer.

During his entire presentation Powell never mentioned the word "oil," and yet the whole world knows that Bush and his corporate clients are already drawing up plans for the seizure of Iraq's oil reserves. For public consumption the talk is disarmament or democracy, but behind closed doors, the administration is meeting with oil industry executives to divide up Iraq's oil fields. (Wall Street Journal, January 16, 2003). Far from democracy, Bush intends to install a U.S. military dictatorship under General Tommy Franks to rule Iraq. In his column of February 5th, Thomas Friedman, Iraq invasion cheerleader, approvingly laid out the future for Iraq, "Iraq will be controlled by the iron fist of the U.S. Army and its allies, with an Iraqi civilian 'advisory' administration gradually emerging behind this iron fist to run daily life..."(New York Times, February 5, 2003)

Powell has presented no threat, no plan, no capability. Is there justification for waging a first strike war of aggression, for bombarding the people of Iraq with massive firepower? Who really poses the greatest threat to world peace?

Powell's presentation was much about Iraq's hypothetical and in any case much diminished weaponry, while the Pentagon is preparing to launch a devastating attack on Iraq using very real weapons of mass destruction - possibly including nuclear weapons. On the issue of weapons of mass destruction, Powell asserts that the Iraqi government may hope to possess nuclear weapons someday. It has not been lost on the whole world though that in recent weeks, the Bush administration has left open the option of actually using nuclear weapons against Iraq in the coming conflict and reserves for itself the right to carry out first strike nuclear war against even non-nuclear countries as part of a new military doctrine recently announced by the Pentagon.

Powell claims that if the U.N. does not support U.S. military aggression and conquest of Iraq, in violation of its Charter, that it will lose its "relevancy." History will remember with great irony Colin Powell's statement that we must stop the leader who "has pursued his ambition to dominate Iraq and the broader Middle East using the only means he knows, intimidation, coercion and annihilation of all those who might stand in his way."

The Bush Administration is not racing to deter an imminent danger posed by Iraq. They are racing to prevent our movement from becoming an insurmountable obstacle to war. Let's all pledge to intensify our work in these crucial coming days and weeks.

In solidarity,

All of us at VoteNoWar.org"

[Larissa]

Also, I found this article to be very interesting too...

"Toronto Star, Feb. 6, 2003. 07:45 AM
AP FILE
"Picasso's "Guernica" is the backdrop as U.S. ambassador to the U.N. John Negroponte, left, talks with senior aide last November.

Anti-war art doesn't fly at U.N.

PETER GODDARD
VISUAL ARTS CRITIC

If there is a war with Iraq, there's already been the first casualty - art.

A tapestry reproduction of "Guernica," Pablo Picasso's powerful anti-war painting, was concealed behind a blue cloth and a row of flags yesterday at the U.N. Security Council offices as White House envoy Colin
Powell was making the United States' case for war.

The mural's tormented images of writhing, twisted shapes reflects the Spanish painter's outraged reaction to the April 27, 1937, bombing of the Basque town of Guernica by German warplanes sent by Hitler to aid the
fascist side in the Spanish civil war.

The bombing mission on behalf of the right-wing Spanish nationalists was an indication of the world war - and many other wars - to come. Guernica had no military significance. It was only bombing practice for Nazi pilots.

U.N. spokespeople yesterday claimed it was the needs of the media, not censorship, that prompted the cover-up.

"Because there was so much press, we had to move the cameras to accommodate them," U.N. spokesperson Stephane Dujarric in New York told the Star yesterday.

"We needed the right background that would work on television and would say `U.N.'

"If we'd left the tapestry, you would have only seen one-tenth of it."

U.N. innocence aside, the coverup may have been prompted by U.N. realization that images of the mural's vivid anti-war message were televised world-wide when it appeared as a backdrop to the Jan. 27 interim report by chief weapons inspector Hans Blix.

Nevertheless, yesterday's coverup attracted a band of New York City protesters who held up copies of the Picasso painting, which was described early on in its history as "a cry of outrage and horror amplified by a great genius" by critic Herbert Read.

The U.N's "Guernica" is a tapestry reproduction donated by former New York state governor Nelson Rockefeller.

The Picasso original hangs in Spain's Museo Nacional Centro de Arte Reina Sofia. Since the 9/11 terrorist attacks, it has attracted long lineups.

U.N. sensitivity to "Guernica" may stem from the painting's well-known historical origins. While the undefended town with its 7,000 inhabitants was
bombed, killing hundreds, military barracks nearby were ignored by the approaching pilots. A neighbouring factory making munitions was also left unscathed.

Taken together, these 1937 events may carry meaning for those anti-war nations at the U.N. that fear the so-called "collateral" damage in an Iraq war.

(While the American military made much of the accuracy of the "precision" bombing during the Gulf War, most of the bombs landed in civilian areas. Basra, a city of 800,000 people, was carpet-bombed.)

Picasso, a self-proclaimed Communist whose politics were slippery at the best of times, was outraged at the devastation to Guernica and began the first of his 45 or so sketches of the atrocity about five days after the
bombing.

"Guernica" was banned from Spain until it was returned to the country in 1981, six years after Franco's death. It is housed at the Renia Sofia, a massive bunker of a museum providing protection from anyone wishing to attack the work - or its message."

[Exploited Class]

It gets even better on the evidence presented.

http://www.channel4.com/news/home/z/storie...06/dossier.html (http://www.channel4.com/news/home/z/stories/20030206/dossier.html)
Downing St dossier plagiarised

The target is an intelligence dossier released on Monday and heralded by none other than Colin Powell at the UN yesterday.


Channel Four News has learnt that the bulk of the nineteen page document was copied from three different articles - one written by a graduate student.

On Monday, the day before the US Secretary of State, Colin Powell addressed the UN, Downing Street published its latest paper on Iraq.

It gives the impression of being an up to the minute intelligence-based analysis - and Mr Powell was fulsome in his praise.

Published on the Number 10 web site, called "Iraq - Its Infrastructure of Concealment Deception and Intimidation", it outlines the structure of Saddam's intelligence organisations.

But it made familiar reading to Cambridge academic Glen Ranwala. It was copied from an article last September in a small journal: the Middle East Review of International Affairs.

It's author, Ibrahim al-Marashi, a postgraduate student from Monterey in California. Large sections do indeed appear, verbatim.

A section, for example, six paragraphs long, on Saddam's Special Security Organisation, the exact same words are in the Californian student's paper.

In several places Downing Street edits the originals to make more sinister reading.

Number 10 says the Mukhabarat - the main intelligence agency - is "spying on foreign embassies in Iraq".

The original reads: "monitoring foreign embassies in Iraq."


And the provocative role of "supporting terrorist organisations in hostile regimes" has a weaker, political context in the original: "aiding opposition groups in hostile regimes."

Even typographic mistakes in the original articles are repeated.

Of military intelligence, al-Marashi writes in his original paper:

"The head of military intelligence generally did not have to be a relative of Saddam's immediate family, nor a Tikriti. Saddam appointed, Sabir Abd Al-Aziz Al-Duri as head..." Note the comma after appointed.


Downing Street paraphrases the first sentence: "Saddam appointed, Sabir 'Abd al-'Aziz al-Duri as head during the 1991 Gulf War."

This second line is cut and pasted, complete with the same grammatical error.


plagiarism is regarded as intellectual theft.

Sample text

Government dossier: (page 13), published Jan 2003

"Saddam appointed, Sabir 'Abd al-'Aziz al-Duri as head during the 1991 Gulf War. After the Gulf War he was replaced by Wafiq Jasim al-Samarrai.

After Samarrai, Muhammad Nimah al-Tikriti headed Al-Istikhbarat al-Askariyya in early 1992 then in late 1992 Fanar Zibin Hassan al-Tikriti was appointed to this post.

These shifting appointments are part of Saddam's policy of balancing security positions. By constantly shifting the directors of these agencies, no one can establish a base in a security organisation for a substantial period of time. No one becomes powerful enough to challenge the President."

al-Marashi document: (section: "MILITARY INTELLIGENCE", published sept 2002 - relevant parts have been underlined

[Larissa]

Colin Powell's sources...

Job offer: Intelligence officer, MI6.

Skills: Google searching. Right accent (ability to talk
foreign desirable but not essential). Familiarity with
latest data gathering techniques, including BabelFish.

Responsibilities: Providing justification for launching
military attacks on other countries. Possibility of rapid
promotion in the event of thermonuclear conflict.

Send CV to: ???

[Larissa]

Quote: from Mahdavikia on 6:36 am on Feb. 6, 2003
the USA continue to mislead the world

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=ht...Flanguage_tools (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Ffr.news.yahoo.com%2F03020 6%2F202%2F318dh.html&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools)
Some people (affected by the US media) remind me of a Brazilian fictional character, the "velhinha de Taubaté", "little old lady from Taubaté". Taubaté is a medium-sized Brazilian city halfway between Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo, and this old lady was famous in the whole country because she believed everything she was told by anybody in authority.

The main problem is there is a lot of ppl around the world who truly believe biased media. They don't doubt it. They are unable to think by themselves. :-(

[Larissa]

Quote: from exploitedclass on 6:17 pm on Feb. 6, 2003
It gets even better on the evidence presented.

http://www.channel4.com/news/home/z/storie...06/dossier.html (http://www.channel4.com/news/home/z/stories/20030206/dossier.html)
Downing St dossier plagiarised

The target is an intelligence dossier released on Monday and heralded by none other than Colin Powell at the UN yesterday.


Channel Four News has learnt that the bulk of the nineteen page document was copied from three different articles - one written by a graduate student.

Yes, I read the full article.
Here are a couple of links more:
The Official UK intelligence report is at:
http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page7111.asp

The original student research paper is located at:
http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2002/issue3...e3/jv6n3a1.html (http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2002/issue3/jv6n3a1.html)

[Dhul Fiqar]

It's amusing that they had to steal this stuff about the '91 situation from some kid's homework (that's basically what it is), and then represent it as something new and current. If that's the best MI5 and MI6 could come up with, I'm joining the IRA immediately. They must be running circles around them...

In any case, I know exactly why they copy-pasted all that stuff. Who the hell is gonna sit down and type something like "Muhammad Nimah al-Tikriti headed Al-Istikhbarat al-Askariyya" (actual names) without fucking it up? ;)

--- G.

[Larissa]

Quote: from Dhul Fiqar on 9:25 am on Feb. 8, 2003
In any case, I know exactly why they copy-pasted all that stuff. Who the hell is gonna sit down and type something like "Muhammad Nimah al-Tikriti headed Al-Istikhbarat al-Askariyya" (actual names) without fucking it up? ;)

--- G. LOL! :biggrin:

[kingbee]

basically colon is scraping the barrel. the tapped phone calls could have easily been acted- it seemed so over the top:
"captain, we have these awful weapons of mass destruction, not to mention biological, nuclear and chemical ones- where can i hide them? did i mention i love bin laden?"
could have fitted in perfectly

[Red Liberation]

Quote: from kingbee on 4:24 pm on Feb. 8, 2003
basically colon is scraping the barrel. the tapped phone calls could have easily been acted- it seemed so over the top:
"captain, we have these awful weapons of mass destruction, not to mention biological, nuclear and chemical ones- where can i hide them? did i mention i love bin laden?"
could have fitted in perfectly

LOL!

just what i thought - 'fabricated'

[Show me the Money]

bump me up, scotty!

[革命者]

BUMP !!!!!

[Angie]

I love the fact that to stop the American people from learning about Powell's pathetic excuse for 'evidence', which mind you has still remained out of the bulk of U.S media sources, the Bush Administration declared a security upgrade to Code Orange. Classic. The Administration is clearly convinced that it's nation's people are no more intelligent than braindead lab rats.

[hawarameen]

Quote: from Tasha on 2:25 am on Feb. 6, 2003 Even if Iraq had the largest arsenal of chemical and biological weapons in the world it is not enough justification for an attack.

tell me how did you work that one out???

[Tasha]

Start of ww3 if that was the case, imagine someone invading the united states right now. Many many people would die. Nothing good can come out of a war like this.

[hawarameen]

so you let a complete lunatic collect an array of deadly weapons which you know he will use on his own people and if any other country sais anything they'll get a piece too???

[hawarameen]

you stop WW3 the same way you should have stopped WW2 by not letting a homicidal maniac with no regard for his own peoples or anyone elses, secretly build up his weapons because he hasnt done anything yet. germany broke many agreements before WW2 and it took the invasion of poland for the world to say stop. does saddam have to invade another country (AGAIN) or gas a few more people before anyone listens?

[Tasha]

United states is building up huge amounts of nuclear weapons and is currently run by a lunatic that will even threaten to nuke a country to get his oil.

[Tasha]

I'm trying to state that war is not the solution to the current conflict. Let's not forget the amount of racism that the United states has already built up. Not just Muslims but anyone who opposes war in the united states is seen as anti-american and will see violent resistance. The united states has had people killed for simply being muslim over 9/11 crisis. I believe the president stated only once very soon after that not all muslims are bad. Instead of emphasizing this, he continues to make actions that speak for themselves.

(Edited by Tasha at 12:05 am on Feb. 11, 2003)

[Doshka]

hahahaha evidence?? that a good one...but please ablige me...did you buy their bullshit? come on!! they didnt even have their facts straight....my personal favourite was when powell mentioned that his 'sources had proof that iraq had been in contact with alqaeda for decades' i loved that....it warmed my heart to know that they could say that even though alqaeda was only established 5 years ago...and people bought it! and the phone recordings were bullshit...nothin new or even relative evidence was put forward...it was a complete fraud..the satalite pictures showed a couple of cars around a building..big fucking deal...were they actually planning on convincing someone with that??

[Larissa]

If it's not good enough, he will sure come up with anything made up that the US gov considers to be good enough. :angry: