Explain this Marx quote to me

[Deutsche Ideologie]

my vocab is not of this caliber

Capitalist production begets with the inexorability of a law of nature its own negation’, Karl Marx, 1867.

[JKP]

Regarding your vocabulary, use an online dictionary; the firefox browser has intergrated dictonary searching.

And as for the quote, he's just referring to the fact that capitalism creates the proletariat, the class that will overthrow capitalism.

More importantly, why is this even posted in OI?

[Amusing Scrotum]

my vocab is not of this caliber

It's nothing to do with your vocabulary, it's because the language used in Marx's works is 19th century English. Which is sometimes a real pain in the arse to understand.


Capitalist production begets with the inexorability of a law of nature its own negation’, Karl Marx, 1867.

Roughly translated, it says "Capitalist production creates with an inescapable law of nature its own nonexistence."

Or as JKP put it -


And as for the quote, he's just referring to the fact that capitalism creates the proletariat, the class that will overthrow capitalism.
__________________________________________________ __________________


More importantly, why is this even posted in OI?

....because he is a restricted member.

[Deutsche Ideologie]

I was banned from the rest of the forum for not being "left enough" or some bullshit. The staff here or whoever runs this place is dumb as shit.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

It was actually for racist comments that you made.

[LSD]

You were not "banned" you were restricted by vote of the CC for making racist and reactionary comments.

I guess we can't all be "full, 100% German and proud as hell of it". :angry:

[Free Palestine]

Originally posted by Deutsche [email protected] 21 2005, 05:05 AM
The staff here or whoever runs this place is dumb as shit.
I second this. :lol:

[LSD]

I don't suppose that means you're ready to explain about the "World Jewish Hierarchy"?

[Free Palestine]

This has already been explained again and again.. both by me and other members. Of course, you do not want an explanation - what you want is to stalk and hound me and recite this line of yours every chance you get. I'll be happy to "explain" it to you again you're ready to explain how far down the evolutionary ladder you've decided to free-fall. ;)

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by Free [email protected] 21 2005, 06:01 AM
This has already been explained again and again.. both by me and other members. Of course, you do not want an explanation - what you want is to stalk and hound me and recite this line of yours every chance you get. I'll be happy to "explain" it to you again you're ready to explain how far down the evolutionary ladder you've decided to free-fall. ;)
I have yet to see this explanation. Could you point out where you explained yourself or repeat that explanation in this thread?

[LSD]

This has already been explained again and again.. both by me and other members.

That's an outright lie.

A search for "World Jewish Hierarchy" (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?act=Search&CODE=show&searchid=6bae3f996c2e0f3331c686560f231c3d&search_in=posts&result_type=topics&highlite=world+jewish+hierarchy) brings up 4 results.

The first one is your original statement: That doesn't wash. One has to ask if the world Jewish hierarchy, by now fully committed to the creation of Israel, had a real interest in exerting its power to overcome American opposition to Jewish immigration?

The second one is Xvall arguing that workersunity is not antisemetic, and using your comment as an example of what antisemetism is! :lol:

The other two, including this one, are me asking you to defend/explain your statement. In none of them, including this one, do you actually do so.

Where exactly, then, was your comment "explained"?


Of course, you do not want an explanation

If that were true, why have I asked for one three times?


what you want is to stalk and hound me and recite this line of yours every chance you get.

Not "every chance I get", just every time that you complain about your restriction. I'm reminding both you and the board that 1) there's a reason you were restricted, and 2) you refuse to even address it.

If you keep on bringing the fact that you were restricted, I will keep on reminding people why.


I'll be happy to "explain" it to you

:)

Go ahead.

[Free Palestine]

Ugh.. I have already explained this to you in the "Let them Torture" thread, but it seems you already forgot. As I recall, Ownthink also offered an explanation in the same thread and coincidentally enough, the link you provided directs one to thread in question. :lol: Perhaps it would be wise to actually read your own links next time before you use them as substantiation against someone. Furthermore, I have explained this to numerable other moderators via private messages on other occasions which I presume have been otherwise avaliable to you.

[KC]

It wasn't explained in the "Let Them Torture" thread at all.

[Ginger Goodwin]

[.

[Black Dagger]

Nevermind.

[Deutsche Ideologie]

I never said any racist comments. In fact those were pretty anti-nazi comments if you ask me, you idiots are just stupid.

[LSD]

Ugh.. I have already explained this to you in the "Let them Torture" thread

Considering that the very last post in that thread is me asking you for an explanation, that seems unlikely.

But if you're claiming that an explanation was given, I think we'd all like you to "repost" it here, for the sake of clarity at least.


Furthermore, I have explained this to numerable other moderators via private messages on other occasions

Well then, by all means, explain it to the rest of us! :)

Again, the only reason that you're restricted is your reference to a "world Jewish hierarchy" and, more importantly, your refusal afterwards to renounce that statement.

Logically, one can only derive that you believe in a "world Jewish hierarchy", and that is not acceptable.


I never said any racist comments.


Originally posted by Deutsche Ideologie+--> (Deutsche Ideologie)Well, the blacks did just what the Nazis wanted them to do.

Now the Nazis have gotten worldwide attention.. Good job black people![/b]

link: http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...topic=41640&hl= (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=41640&hl=)

Here's another pretty ridiculous post:


Originally posted by Deutsche Ideologie+--> (Deutsche Ideologie) Ovo Je Bosnia?

That is Bosnian correct?

And are you a Muslim or were you the one running the genocide?[/b]

emphasis added. Link: http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...topic=35819&hl= (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=35819&hl=)

And a nice, completely nationalistic gem to finish it off.


Deutsche [email protected]
Full, 100% German. And proud as hell of it.

Not to mention your very reactionary stance on women's rights:


Deutsche Ideologie
Abortion is a sick and unnatural practice, and I wouldn't stay with a girl who had one..


if you ask me, you idiots are just stupid.

Watch the flaming.

[Deutsche Ideologie]

If the blacks of Toledo didn't react to the nazis they wouldn't of gotten any international coverage, they would've had their fucking march and it would've been done with. Instead they reacted and the nazis got just what they wanted and spread their message everywhere in the world. Good job guys!

And fuck abortion, it's a sick and unnatural practice. I'm pro-choice but it disgusts me.

[Black Dagger]

So you're not defending the claims that you're a sexist racist german nationalist? Fair enough.

[FreePalestine-SmashIsrael]

it seems as though those against the state of israel are no better than nazis, well this is disheartening at the least.

[Free Palestine]

Note that the context is always missing whenever LSD cites this quote against me. The phrase in question comes from a debate between LSD and myself over the feasible destinations of Jewish refugees post-WWII. LSD had made a point to mention that the U.S. quelled Jewish immigration at this time. I responded by positing whether the "world Jewish hierarchy" had any real interest in overcoming American opposition to Jewish immigration post-WWII at all (since they were able to neutralize the State Department's initial opposition to the creation of Israel). All "world Jewish hierarchy" in this context means is the more influential segments of Jewish bourgeoise. I was not asserting the existence of an "international Jewish conspiracy!" Call it a bad rhetorical device, fine, but it is not anti-Semitic.

Suppose I asked if the "world Tibetan hierarchy" had any interest in offsetting American resistance to their immigration and attempts to escape oppression. Would I also be regarded as an "anti-Tibetan conspiracy theorist?" (As well as a "pseudo-leftist" and "anti-semitic dickhead" as the owner of the site, Malte, so maturely put it) No.. Probably because such an allegation would considered be too absurd to merit laughter. This entire fiasco is a joke of Pythonesque proportions. It truly is.

[LSD]

Note that the context is always missing whenever LSD cites this quote against me.

Actually, if you look up on this page, you can see that I quoted the offending sentence in full.


I responded by positing whether the "world Jewish hierarchy" had any real interest in overcoming American opposition to Jewish immigration post-WWII at all (since they were able to neutralize the State Department's initial opposition to the creation of Israel).

"They" were not able to "neutralize" anything. It was not the work of shadowy "hierarchies" that got the US to support the creation of Israel, it was US interests ...but we've already covered this in the Israel thread itself.

Free Palestine, I think you'd do much better here if you'd just admit that you copied the text in question from another website, and concede that it expresses antisemitic tendencies. If you had done so at first, I don't think you would still be restricted.

It's your unwillingness to concede, however, that has done you in.

Honestly, arguing that statements regarding a "world Jewish hierarchy" are not antisemitic is laughable at best and scary at worst. As long as you persists, you will remain confined to OI.


All "world Jewish hierarchy" in this context means is the more influential segments of Jewish bourgeoise.

The "more influential segments of Jewish bourgeoise" did not constitute a "world hierarchy", they, in fact, constituted a distince minority in terms of power and influence.

How are influential bourgeoisie who happen to be Jewish "hierarchical"? How are they organized as to be called a "world" anything? Your statement implies strong organization, conspiracism, and, obviously, hierarchy to a level not ascribed to any other segment of the bourgeoisie.

Considering that this is precisely the thing that hate groups have been doing against Jews for centuries, it is highly suspicious bahaviour.

When discussing initial US opposition to the state of Israel, you did not bring up "world Christian hierarchy"; nor when addressing current arab sentiments do you ever mention "world Muslim hierarchy", despite the fact that both groups have "influential" rulling classes, both of which are far more powerful than any Jewish "hierarchy" is or has ever been.

It's the singling out that is so disturbing, especially in light of the history.


I was not asserting the existence of an "international Jewish conspiracy!"

No, you were asserting the existance of a "world Jewish hierarchy", which, at face, would appear to be the exact same thing.


Call it a bad rhetorical device, fine, but it is not anti-Semitic.

It's actually both.

If you want to be unrestricted, you'll have to acknowledge that asserting the existance of a "world Jewish hierarchy", in those words, is antisemitic. Whether you "meant" it to be so or not is something that we can never determine.


Suppose I asked if the "world Tibetan hierarchy" had any interest in offsetting American resistance to their immigration and attempts to escape oppression. Would I also be regarded as an "anti-Tibetan conspiracy theorist?"

No, mainly because there is no history of widespread anti-Tibetan conspiracism. Theories about "world Jewish conspiracies", however, are staples of the far right and have been historically used as justifications for harasment, violence, atrocities, and genocides.

[jambajuice]

Originally posted by Armchair [email protected] 21 2005, 12:01 AM


Roughly translated, it says "Capitalist production creates with an inescapable law of nature its own nonexistence."


Say what?

I don't think I get that? Could you be wrong? Sound like a lot of intellectual jiber jabby to me.

[Free Palestine]

"They" were not able to "neutralize" anything.

LSD,

You are wrong about this. American Zionists met initial resistance from the U.S. State Department, especially with the Division of Near Eastern Affairs who maintained a neutral position until 1945 out of fear of "foreign entanglements." The American Zionist neutralized this resistance through both the use of lobbying techniques and appealing to popular sentiment. The history of how Jewish lobbies neutralized the influence of the State Department on US' Middle East policies has been documented by Lawrence Davidson in American Perceptions of Palestine.

As far as my alleged "anti-Semitism.." I have been under attack for my "anti-Semitism" ever since I began writing about Palestine and long before I ever said anything about any Jewish lobbies.

[LSD]

You are wrong about this. American Zionists met initial resistance from the U.S. State Department, especially with the Division of Near Eastern Affairs who maintained a neutral position until 1945 out of fear of "foreign entanglements."

I think you missed my point.

I'm not saying that no lobbying or argumentation was undertaken, I'm saying that it was not done by an international "hiearchy" of Jews.

Any attempt to persuade the American government with regards to its policy on British Palestine and Jewish statehood was undertaken by specific individuals and organizations.

Again, when you ascribe pressure by Jewish people as part of "world Jewish hierarchy", but resistance by Christian people as politics as usual, there is an implict assumption that the "Jews" are organized, hiearchical, and conspiratorial, whereas the Christians are ...not.

Those organizations fighting against the existance of Israel both before and well after 1948 were primarily composed of Muslims. So why no talk of the "world Muslim hierarchy"?

Again, it's the ascribing of a conspiracy to the one group in history that has the most history of being ascribed conspiracies that disturbs us. It is just so common, unfortunately among much of the left as well, to perpetuate Jewish conspiracy nonsense.

That is, almost certainly, why the web site you copied used such markedly bigotted language. It is why so many "leftist" websites contain that infamous Ariel Sharon "quote".

But it doensn't mean that we will tolerate it here.


As far as my alleged "anti-Semitism.." I have been under attack for my "anti-Semitism" ever since I began writing about Palestine and long before I ever said anything about any Jewish lobbies.

That may well be.

Obviously, I know absolutely nothing about your life, so I can't confirm or deny this. What I can say is that your status on this board was not imperiled until you used the phrase "world Jewish hiearchy".

On that point, I'm wondering if you've considered what I've written. Do you understand why such a phrase is implictly antisemetic? Do you understand its connection with "Jewish conspiracy" theories of the past and far-right hate groups?

Again, I cannot say what you intended when you initialy wrote the piece. I'm even fairly certain that there's a more than decent chance that you didn't even realize it was contained within the segment that you copied off of that website.

But I have been quite disturbed at your steadfast refusal to acknoweledge the antisemitic nature of the idea of a "world Jewish hierachy" in the weeks since the initial incident.

Have you reconsidered this position?