North Korea(kim jong il)

[ReD_ReBeL]

personaly my opinion towards the North korean Dictatorship is negative i regard KIM as a trannt who doesnt care and take his people's views into regard and is so focused on keeping western influences out of his country he forgets about his peoples needs.
i'm new to this btw, so hey

[which doctor]

He deserves to come before a firing squad. He has not cared for the needs of his people. He spends way too much money on defense. He closes his country off to virtually all foreign influences. And worst of all he gives a bad name to communism.

[TheLiberal]

I should imagine that Kim Jong Il gains very little sympathy on these forums. Certainly with myself as a liberal democrat, he is no better than any other fascist.

[ReD_ReBeL]

yes indeed Fist Of Blood he very much does give communism a bad name thts why i just refer to him as a dictator haha instead of a commie dictator lol

[Atlas Swallowed]

He did not become the leader of North Korea on merit he became the leader because of who his father was. He might as well call himself prince or king. He is no better for his people than any other dictator. He is no good for socialism.

[JKP]

He needs to be tried and executed like all dictators. Hopefully the Korean people can overthrow this asshole and establish real socialism.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 02:36 PM
He needs to be tried and executed like all dictators. Hopefully the Korean people can overthrow this asshole and establish real socialism.
If his regime falls then the US will come in and establish a faux democracy. If the people do get power and establish some form of socialism then they will be criticized by the US.

[JKP]

Originally posted by Fist of Blood+Nov 20 2005, 12:01 PM--> (Fist of Blood @ Nov 20 2005, 12:01 PM)
[email protected] 20 2005, 02:36 PM
He needs to be tried and executed like all dictators. Hopefully the Korean people can overthrow this asshole and establish real socialism.
If his regime falls then the US will come in and establish a faux democracy. If the people do get power and establish some form of socialism then they will be criticized by the US. [/b]
They're aready being criticised by the west.

[ReD_ReBeL]

yea the only reason the NK people havnt revolted is becoz the government is spread so much fear into these innocent people tht thy fear if thy r found out tht there whole families will be executed, similar to what Saddam, Hitler and Stalin did

[refuse_resist]

After reading this thread I feel like I've been watching a segment from Fox News or CNN.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 20 2005, 07:04 PM
He deserves to come before a firing squad. He has not cared for the needs of his people. He spends way too much money on defense. He closes his country off to virtually all foreign influences. And worst of all he gives a bad name to communism.
Foreign influences? I hope you don't mean the foreign influences that previously tried to take over all of Korea, the same foreign influences that would make the country capitalist? Nahh, couldn't be...


He did not become the leader of North Korea on merit he became the leader because of who his father was. He might as well call himself prince or king. He is no better for his people than any other dictator. He is no good for socialism.
Lie. If he had simply sat on his ass, he would not have gotten the position he has now.

Even this rather anti-DPRK article agrees:

http://www.east-asia-intel.com/eai/Sample/2.html


Recent rumors surrounding a power struggle over Kim's successor, if true, may be a case of history repeating itself. There are signs that Koh Young-Hee is being idolized in North Korea and this may be the first step to pick one her two sons as an officially anointed heir. Kim himself staged a ruthless power struggle with his uncle, Kim Young-Ju. He was victorious and ousted his half-brother, Kim Sung-Ju.

Contrary to the popular belief that Kim Il-Sung groomed his son to transfer power to him, Sohn's biography and the testimonies of other defectors confirm that Kim fought his way up. By 1987, even his father was under the junior Kim's control.

"You have to be shrewd to take the full control of the military, party and the bureaucrats in North Korea. Kim demonstrated the capability. He could not come where he was simply because he was the son of Kim Il-Sung," said Lee Hang-Koo, a long-time North Korea watcher who worked in South Korean military counterintelligence.

[bolshevik butcher]

Kim Jong Il, is just another stalinist dictator. There is nothing remotley socialsit about north korea, it is just another example of stalinism; a dictatorship of the beauracracy in which the poeple are not given a say.

[JKP]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 12:57 PM



Contrary to the popular belief that Kim Il-Sung groomed his son to transfer power to him, Sohn's biography and the testimonies of other defectors confirm that Kim fought his way up. By 1987, even his father was under the junior Kim's control.

"You have to be shrewd to take the full control of the military, party and the bureaucrats in North Korea. Kim demonstrated the capability. He could not come where he was simply because he was the son of Kim Il-Sung," said Lee Hang-Koo, a long-time North Korea watcher who worked in South Korean military counterintelligence.
It seems there is some contention within the inner party.

How does that relate to socialism?

Also, it's cute that you think that we're speaking like a right-winger; I hate Kim Jong because I love communism.

Yet you're the one who supports a totalitarian class society.

[Mr Brightside]

Awesome. :wub: The supreme leader knows whats best for the people of N. Korea, he takes after his daddy. All those people who disappear are being rewarded in special happy camps. The only reason the regime is so oppressive is that they don't want to let many people in to spoil the idylic socialism they have in place. Kim has kindly put lovely big staues all over the place to remind people of who made the incredibly well policed streets and excellent surveillance system possible.


:rolleyes:

[which doctor]

Originally posted by Mr [email protected] 20 2005, 06:28 PM
Awesome. :wub: The supreme leader knows whats best for the people of N. Korea, he takes after his daddy. All those people who disappear are being rewarded in special happy camps. The only reason the regime is so oppressive is that they don't want to let many people in to spoil the idylic socialism they have in place. Kim has kindly put lovely big staues all over the place to remind people of who made the incredibly well policed streets and excellent surveillance system possible.


:rolleyes:
Sarcasm, right?

[Mr Brightside]

Sarcasm, right?

:D Of course! The place is a totalitarian nightmare society. From what I've seen/heard about N.Korea it seems scarily like the type of place portrayed in George Orwell's 1984.

I have to admit though, I did feel slightly sorry for Kim in the Team America movie... "I'm so wonleeeyyy" :lol: Sarcasm again btw :D

[kingbee]

the place is unbelievable. complete and utter devotion to the two kims. EVERYBODY wears badges of kim il sung, and i mean EVERYBODY. however, you get a sense that whereas they actually like kim il sung, there isn't as much devotion to kim jong il. kim il sung basically resisted invasion (or so they think) and thats something that the korean people are proud of.

the thing is that any news from the north must be taken with a pinch of salt- as there are no reliable news sources there, any story can, and will, be believed. i've read various stories of defectors making up stories in the south, and in china.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Kim Jong Il and his regime are fascists wrapped in red flags.

I am actually astonished that some people here support him.

[donnie_middel1]

As a member of the KFA, i hold all of ur negative opinions as nothing more then american propoganda , u say u r opposed to imperialism yet u listen to what they say about there enemies, The Dear Leader has done no wrong he has done everything within his power to make the DPRK a utopia, however with all of the embargos from america its hard , yet his ppl still love and cherish him, and they as well as me will always be a soldier of the Dear Leader, Chairman of the Korean Workers Party, and Hero of all Revolutions Kim Jong Il

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 05:00 PM
The Dear Leader has done no wrong he has done everything within his power to make the DPRK a utopia
I think that says enough already thanks.

[Red Heretic]

Well, I think nearly all of you are making mistakes in your analysis of the DPRK.

Yes, on the one the hand, Kim Jong Il is a revisionist, and the DRPK was NEVER a socialist country.

On the other hand, we still ought to stand in solidarity with the Korean masses in their just struggle against US imperialism, while at the same time criticizing and exposing the revisionist character of the DPRK.

That's what Unity-Struggle-Unity is all about!

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 05:00 PM
As a member of the KFA, i hold all of ur negative opinions as nothing more then american propoganda , u say u r opposed to imperialism yet u listen to what they say about there enemies, The Dear Leader has done no wrong he has done everything within his power to make the DPRK a utopia, however with all of the embargos from america its hard , yet his ppl still love and cherish him, and they as well as me will always be a soldier of the Dear Leader, Chairman of the Korean Workers Party, and Hero of all Revolutions Kim Jong Il
Dear Leader? I thought you were claimed to be a Maoist. Juche Thought and dogmatic worship and deification of leadership is revisionism!

It's rather ironic that you buy into Juche Thought's dogmatic religious deification of Kim Jong Il, and at the same condemn any dialectical materialist popularization of Avakian's proletarian leadership.

[ReD_ReBeL]

fair enough he fought off the US, but u think a leader who lives in practically a palace and wealth and so does his elitists lives an 'upper class' life, while all his fellow North korean people live in practically shit, u call him a dear leader?
he spends more on military thn on his own people

[TheComrade]

Executed? That’s extreme - as extreme as he is! The people should be helped to remove him from office - but only through there own merit. One thing we should have learnt (if you didn't already know!) from Iraq is that you cannot crusade around getting rid of people you don't like! The North Koreans are beginning to see what other lives people live - they, in time, will remove him - then will be the time to help - then will be the time to give aid.

donnie_middel1 - It's irrelevant what groups Kim Jong is a part of, the fact remains that he hoards nukes, he starves his people - kills anyone who disagrees with him and cares nothing for equality, freedom or peace. Have you ever heard of the phrase 'know your enemy' - if you cut yourself off from all 'capitalist' propaganda as you call it - you become isolated and are subject to extremism and unacceptable abuse by sad idealists with physiatrist problems! (and why aren't you locked away in Opposing Ideologies with such a bizarre love of a fascist dictator?)

(I am in no way advocating Capitalism or Imperialism)

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 06:03 PM
he spends more on military thn on his own people
They aren't "his own people," and we need to be very clear about this. It needs to be the Korean proletariat that is in control of society, not any one leader.

Vanguard leadership serves the purpose of leading the proletariat in it's control of society, not in ruling the proletariat, or giving it some sort of "happy" welfare state (ie. Cuba and Sweden).

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 06:20 PM
he hoards nukes
I personally don't see anything wrong with the building of nuclear weapons as a form of obtaining leverage in negotiations with the imperialists. We all know it is the imperialists who have these things and ACTUALLY HAVE USED THEM, AND ARE WILLING DO IT AGAIN!

[ReD_ReBeL]

yea true, but why would Kim spend so much on nuclear and military and not on the north korean people since there so much poverty and starvation, could he not even balance it out better so tht the poverty gets better, or is this nuclear building out of paranoia which he seems to hold?

[Tekun]

I support the manner in which he tries to abolish any Western influence in his country and Im proud that he's hasn't backed down (with exception to his recent decision to give up on his nuclear development) when confronted by Western powers

Yet, Im troubled by his negligence towards his people's plight
The starvation and famine that occurred there in the 90's was staggering
And in addition, he gained complete control of the country when his father died
^This type of monarchical transition of power should not be practiced by communists

His rule resembles that of a totalitarian dictatorship
If any disagree, give evidence to refute our claims

[Janus]

I believe the reason for the low regard of Kim Il Jung is the fact that he has always been seen as a play boy and has done nothing to refute this. He has done nothing to forward socialism rather his personality cult is a shame to all socialists. His only strength is being able to keep his nation under his firm control by using the West as a scapegoat for all of their problems. However, I doubt he will be the one to recognize the failure of his government in providing for his own people who have to live off the charity of South Korea and Japan. He should worry more about producing the needed amount of food rather than manufacturing nuclear weapons in order to force his neighbors into acquiescing to his demands.

[Iron Bolshevik]

It seems the majority of you have no real idea what you're talking about, I'm far from a Juche socialist; but how many of you have actually visited North Korea before you listen to the U.N. Human Rights Commission bullshit? I've never visited so I cannot offer an articulate opinion regarding the actual situation in the DPRK, but if you have ever talked to the user 'Ixabert' he can offer a plethora of information regarding the DPRK, and has refuted many delusional claims of tyranny and oppression. I am critical of Kim Jong-Il and to a further extent his father (mainly for their abandonment of Marxism-Leninism)--but they represent a worker's state that is in staunch contrast to western hegemony.

[ReD_ReBeL]

what is the ideology tht Kim Jong Il uses now since i hear he dropped Marxism-leninism?

[viva le revolution]

North Korea abandoned marxism-leninism and now pursue juche socialism.
True north korea might not be a picture perfect socialist society, but criticism, particularly on this thread, is rather simplistic in my view.

1. A ruling dynasty rules north korea.
This is utterly false. Kim jong il rose up through intra-party struggle after the death of his father.

2. Starves his own people.
This again is simplistic as an assertion can get. North korea had a dearth of arable land to begin with, coupled with natural famine that's been plaguing that land. Again, my dear would be marxists, looked at logically, why would anybody deliberately starve his own people without any reason??? This assertion again is complete non-sense. if there is a shortage of food it is because of material conditions and not regarding any malice on part of kim. Couple that with ever-present U.S sanctions.

3. Excessive spending on the military.
Well i guess that would have to do with a combined U.S- south korean military buildup along the DMZ, regular threats by the west( the whole axis of evil), especially the usa's preemptive doctrine. etc. etc. any nation that comprimises it's capacity for self-defence in such conditions would be idiotic to the highest degree.
Thus actual logical criticism would be required, not the infantile dribble regularly encountered here.

[DisIllusion]

I agree, Kim Jong Il doesn't seem to be trying to make the DPRK anything that even remotely seems like a socialist country. Splurging on palaces and nuclear weapons? Hardly the work of a proletariat. He's just another fascist, perhaps even worse than Stalin, since Stalin had the Great Patriotic War and all North Korea has is shit. Literally.

[viva le revolution]

umm.. i wasn't criticizing north korea, but merely trying to argue against baseless criticism.

[Iron Bolshevik]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 02:50 AM
I agree, Kim Jong Il doesn't seem to be trying to make the DPRK anything that even remotely seems like a socialist country. Splurging on palaces and nuclear weapons? Hardly the work of a proletariat. He's just another fascist, perhaps even worse than Stalin, since Stalin had the Great Patriotic War and all North Korea has is shit. Literally.
When you make baseless accusations of Stalin and Kim Jong-Il to being fascist, you make it hard for people to respect your opinions and comments. Clearly you don't know anything about Stalin, North Korea, Kim Jong-Il, and I'm guessing fascism either.

[DisIllusion]

umm.. i wasn't criticizing north korea, but merely trying to argue against baseless criticism.

I wasn't going against you, I was simply talking about what I believed to be a fascist nation, "a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition" which, I believe fits the mold for North Korea. I just don't believe in worshipping our leaders.

And by the way, what's juche socialism?

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 03:51 AM


I wasn't going against you, I was simply talking about what I believed to be a fascist nation, "a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition" which, I believe fits the mold for North Korea. I just don't believe in worshipping our leaders.

And by the way, what's juche socialism?
1. north korea has no concept of race aqlongwith it. in fact repatriation with the south is desired by the north, this is matched by the general anti-u.s sentiment in the south. if anything, they want the yankees out, anti-north prpoganda is basically carried out by the south korean leadership. This has been the case since the korean war, when commies were packaged as followers of satan.


2. a centralized leadership is no basis for fascism. This has been the case since time immemorial. Monarchies are centralized. Your criticism of stalin also borders on lack of knowledge. there is a huge difference between centralized leadership and democratic centralism.

3. economic regimentation or the command economy in other words is the entire basis of marxism, with capitalism being the exact opposite. This has been the case for even cuba. so this point is rather vague.

4. forcible suppression of the opposition depends on point of view. if the opposition is pro-capitalist then it is only logical that post-revolution they should be suppressed. in his day, even marx himself called the dictatorship of the proletariat synominous with the suppression of the bourgeoisie.

5. Leader worship i agree is not appropriate and should be done away with. but with so much shit flying about as regards north korea, i prefer to to take the media line with a pinch of salt.

6. Juche socialism is a variant of socialism where the entire economy and all institutions of state are categorized as organs of the human body as regards function and purpose. however i am no expert on it. No doubt others would be able to give a clearer picture of it.

[DisIllusion]

All right, thanks comrade. I guess i'll go read up on Stalin.

[viva le revolution]

Please read up on stalin. marxists.org has a good database. particularly " marxism and the national question".
Glad to be of help.

[gewehr_3]

Any person who makes his people worship him and eat tree bark because of extreme famine should be shot

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 05:22 AM
Any person who makes his people worship him and eat tree bark because of extreme famine should be shot
Yes because they are all sadistic bastards who love to watch their people suffer, that's why they struiggled against capitalism in the first place. i'm sure material reality and economic pressure, alongwith political and economic isolation have absolutely nothing to do with it. i'm sure they enjoy watching their people suffer.

[Wanted Man]

I was simply talking about what I believed to be a fascist nation, "a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition" which, I believe fits the mold for North Korea. I just don't believe in worshipping our leaders.
Dimitrov defined fascism in this speech:

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/.../1935/08_02.htm (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm)

Anyway, what do you mean by "exalting nation and race above the individual"? Aren't nations and races made up of individuals? If anything, the core of Juche is that man is at the center of everything, that he can shape his own future. Race? I've never heard of racism in the DPRK. Besides, as has been said, the leadership of the DPRK has always been in favour of reunification. Kim Il-sung's plan for this was not, as is commonly believed, a full-scale invasion, but the forming of a nation called "Democratic Federal Republic of Koryo" that transcends ideology.

"a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader"

Again: what? How is it "centralised" when the workers already have a much greater control over their workplace than in capitalist countries? I also don't believe in the myth that one single leader rules the country entirely on his own.

"severe economic and social regimentation"

Economic regimentation? I don't see that. Same with social: can you explain that, or is it just a hollow phrase?

"forcible suppression of opposition"

Considering the attempts of the USA and the ROK puppet government, I'd say that sometimes such things can't be avoided. Doesn't make them right, but trace it back to the cause of this in the first place, and you'll find American attempts to subvert the country.

By the way, none of the things you mentioned are inherent to fascism. I refer again to Dimitrov.

[tatu]

http://www.kimsoft.com/korea/kji-815.htm

Let Us Carry Out The Great Leader Comrade Kim Il Sung's Instructions For National Reunification
Kim Jong Il, August 15, 1997, Pyongyang

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our people will soon greet the 52nd anniversary of the liberation of our country, the historic event of the beginning of a new life the great leader comrade Kim Il Sung brought to our nation.
On this occasion our people look back with warm hearts upon the tireless efforts and the great achievements the respected leader made for the reunification of our country for half a century ever since the day of national liberation.

Comrade Kim Il Sung's Desire for Reunification
The great leader comrade Kim Il Sung strongly desired and worked hard all his life for the reunification of our country. He was unhappy more about the national sufferings caused by national division than about anything else, and took all the pains and put his heart and soul into the cause for national reunification till the last moment of his life in order to hand down a reunified country to posterity.
To reunify the country in accordance with the noble idea of respected comrade Kim Il Sung is the revolutionary duty and moral obligation of our party and our people. It is a sacred national task devolving upon our generation. No matter what kind of diffic ulties and obstacles may stand in the way of national reunification, we must carry out the great leader comrade Kim Il Sung's instructions for national reunification and fulfill the responsibility and duty our generation has assumed before the country and nation.

The great leader comrade Kim Il Sung is the sun of our nation and the lodestar of national reunification. He devoted all his life to the country and nation and made imperishable achievements in the cause of national reunification. By his preeminent ideas and leadership he pioneered the cause of national reunification, guided it victoriously, laid solid foundations to realize it, and opened the bright prospects for the reunification of the country.

National Reunification
The question of national reunification arose as a result of the division of the country by foreign forces at the end of the second world war. The history of half a century since the division of the country into north and south is a history of an acute str uggle between the two conflicting lines of reunification and division, patriotism and treachery, and a history of the victory of patriotic forces that aspire after national reunification.
Ever since the division of the country, the great leader comrade Kim Il Sung regarded national reunification as the supreme task of our nation, consistently maintained the line of one Korea, the line of reunification, wisely led the struggle to reunify th e country and strengthened and developed the reunification movement into a nationwide movement.

The line of national reunification proposed and invariably maintained by the great leader is a line of thorough national independence for the complete sovereignty and independence of the country and nation and a truly patriotic line for the development of the country to be reunified and for national prosperity. The question of the reunification of our country is a question of putting an end to the foreign domination and intervention of south Korea, establishing national sovereignty throughout the country, linking again the blood ties of the divided nation, and realizing unity as one nation.

If our nation, which has lived as a homogeneous nation in the same land for thousands of years, remains divided by foreign forces, it will be impossible to avoid national misfortune and calamities and free itself from foreign domination and subjugation. R eunification is the only correct way to establish the complete sovereignty of the country and nation, brighten the nation's dignity and honor, and achieve the prosperity of the country and nation. The line of reunification enjoys unreserved support from a ll the Korean people because it reflects the fundamental interests and demand and unanimous wish and aspiration of our nation.

In the complex and difficult situation in which the U.S. imperialists' occupation of south Korea and the maneuvers of divisive forces at home and abroad against reunification were continuing, respected comrade Kim Il Sung maintained the line of reunificat ion firmly and consistently and led the reunification movement on his initiative.

UN Resolution for Two Koreas Opposed
While strengthening the northern half of Korea into a bulwark for national reunification, the great leader ensured that the people in the northern half gave active support and encouragement to the south Korean people in their patriotic struggle for indepe ndence, democracy and national reunification without forgetting them even for a moment. He thwarted the challenge and the maneuvers of the divisive forces at home and abroad against reunification at every step and developed the reunification movement stea dily.
It was our leader who developed the nationwide struggle to frustrate the maneuvers of the flunkeyist and treacherous forces to keep the country divided by convening the historic joint conference of the representatives of political parties and public organ izations from north and south Korea in the grim days when "separate elections and a separate Government" were being cooked up in the name of the UN.

It was our leader who roused all the Korean people to the struggle to check and thwart the maneuvers of the divisive elements for "two Koreas" at a time when a sharp antagonism and struggle was going on between two lines, one for one Korea and the other f or "two Koreas", in our country.

Comrade Kim Il Sung For Inter-Korea Dialogues
It was also our leader who opened the way to dialogue and negotiations between north and south which were in a frozen state, ensured success in adopting the north-south joint statement and agreements and opened a new phase in the movement to reunify the c ountry. The great leader, who had immeasurably noble love for the country and nation, passed not a day without being concerned over the question of national reunification, nor did he take a single day's rest in peace.
Comrade Kim Il Sung worked energetically to strengthen international support for and solidarity with the movement for national reunification. Thanks to his strenuous external activities, the validity of our party's line of national reunification was widel y known to political, public and press circles in various countries, international concern for the question of Korea's reunification increased, and the world progressive people's support for and solidarity with the movement for our country's reunification grew stronger.

Thanks to the great meritorious service rendered by the respected leader comrade Kim Il Sung who adhered to the line of national reunification and devoted all his efforts to the reunification of the country, the reunification movement continued to develop , sweeping away the obstructive moves of the divisive forces, and became an indestructible force.

The ardent desire of the nation for the reunification of the country is growing higher with each passing day, and all the Koreans in the north, south and abroad have turned out for the movement to reunify the country. The development of the reunification movement into a powerful nationwide movement as we see today and its advance in the midst of worldwide interest and support and encouragement from the progressive people prove a brilliant victory of the line of reunification over the line of division.

Three Principles for Reunification
The great leader comrade Kim Il Sung set forth the three charters for national reunification, which clarified the fundamental principles and methods of national reunification, and provided the guideline that must be maintained in accomplishing the cause o f national reunification.
The three principles of independence, peaceful reunification and great national unity are the cornerstones for national reunification which manifested the fundamental standpoint and fundamental way of solving the problem of national reunification b y the efforts of the nation and in keeping with its will and interests. The three principles of national reunification are the great common program of the nation which the north and south confirmed in their July 4 Joint Statement and proclaimed sol emnly to the public at home and abroad.

Ten-Point Program
The ten-point program of the great unity of the whole nation for the reunification of the country is a political program to strengthen the motive force of national reunification by achieving the unity of the entire nation.
This program clearly shows the objective and the ideological basis of great national unity and its principles and methods in an all-round way.

The plan of establishing the Democratic Confederate Republic of Koryo (DCRK) is a blueprint that shows the full picture of the state to be reunified and the method of its realization. It indicates the basic method of reunifying the country most rea sonably and smoothly on the basis of tolerating the ideas and systems of the north and the south.

Three Charters
The three principles of national reunification, the ten-point program of the great unity of the whole nation and the plan of establishing the DCRK constitute the three charters for national reunification by which comrade Kim Il Sung elaborated the basic principles and methods of national reunification into an integral system on the basis of his great Juche idea and his valuable experience of the struggle to reunify the country.
The three charters of national reunification are permeated with the spirit of national independence regarding national sovereignty and dignity as lifeblood and embody his noble love for the country and nation and for reunifying the country peacefully by a chieving north-south reconciliation and the great unity of the entire nation. The three charters clarify the fairest and most reasonable and rational way of reunifying the country at the earliest date in keeping with the real conditions in our country whe re different ideas and systems exist in its north and south for a long time and in accordance with the entire nation's aspirations to reunification.

Because the great leader provided the three charters of national reunification, our nation is in a position to develop the struggle for national reunification with the clear objective, direction, confidence and courage and to realize its cherished desire for its reunification successfully by its united effort. The three charters of national reunification are, indeed, the banner of national reunification as well as the justest and most realistic fighting program for reunifying the country independently and peacefully.

The great leader comrade Kim Il Sung rallied the entire nation under the banner of great national unity, prepared the driving force of national reunification and strengthened it further.

Our nation is the motive force of reunifying the country, and its strength lies in great national unity. When our own force of reunification is prepared, the victory of the cause of national reunification is assured.

Patriotism
Regarding patriotism and the spirit of national independence as the basis of national unity, comrade Kim Il Sung made it the principle of great national unity to subordinate everything to the cause of national reunification, transcending the differences i n thoughts, ideas, political views and religion, and led all the people aspiring after reunification, regardless of their past records, to the way for reunification and patriotism with great generosity and magnanimity.
He put forward the slogan for national unity:

Those with strength, devote their strength, those with knowledge, offer their knowledge and those with money, contribute their money

and encouraged the Korean people from all walks of life to help towards the cause of national reunification, with the mind of loving the country and the nation. His thoughts and ideas of great national unity and his noble love for humanity and the nation were the source of strength that encouraged the Korean compatriots from all sections to set out courageously on the road of national unity and national reunification.

United Front
Comrade Kim Il Sung attached great importance to forming the all-nation united front and energetically led the work of uniting the reunification forces in the north, south and abroad. Basing himself on the experience of the anti-Japanese national united f ront during the anti-Japanese revolutionary struggle, he put forward the policy of forming the great national united front for the country's reunification and wisely guided the struggle to implement it.
As a result, a great advance was made in the work for organizing the compatriots in the north, south and abroad under the banner of national reunification. When the movement for the reunification of the country developed into a movement involving all the nation and their ardent desire for national reunification soared as never before, a Pan-National Rally representing the Koreans in the north, south and abroad was held and the national alliance for the country's reunification representing the reunificatio n will of the entire nation was born.

The formation of the national alliance for the country's reunification is an important success achieved in strengthening the motive force of the country's reunification and developing the reunification movement onto a higher stage.

Today the motive force of reunification and patriotism is expanded and strengthened on a national scale involving the north, south and abroad and cemented more firmly. It is advancing vigorously towards the independent and peaceful reunification of the co untry, overwhelming the flunkeyist, treacherous, divisive forces.

The exploits which the great leader comrade Kim Il Sung accomplished on the road of the country's reunification is the priceless heritage for our people and nation and a solid foundation on which to reunify the country. His life-long efforts dedicated to the country and nation and his great services to the noble cause of national reunification and independence will shine for ever in the history of our country.

Reunification in Our Generation
Reunifying the country in our generation without fail by carrying forward the cause of the country's reunification pioneered and guided by the great leader comrade Kim Il Sung is a firm decision of our Party and a revolutionary will of our people.
The territorial partition and the division of the nation lasting over half a century are obstructing the uniform development of our nation with a history of 5,000 years and causing immeasurable misfortunes and sufferings to our entire nation. If we fail t o reunify the country in our generation, the new generations will also suffer the tragedy of national division, even the national community between the north and the south will disappear and the nation will remain divided for ever.

When the imperialist colonial system has collapsed and all the countries and nations that were once oppressed are advancing along the road of independence, it is an intolerable national shame that our nation that values its dignity and honor as lifeblood has to see its sovereignty trampled upon by foreign forces.

We must achieve the cause of the country's reunification, the lifelong will of respected comrade Kim Il Sung and the vital demand of the nation. National reunification is the greatest national task that must not be delayed any longer.

We must reunify the country at all costs and put an end to the tragic history of national division, the history of disgrace. By reunifying the country, we must save the destiny of the nation from the crisis, hand down the reunified country to the coming g enerations and defend and exalt the dignity and honor of the nation.

In order to reunify the country, we must defend the imperishable achievements which the great leader comrade Kim Il Sung made for national reunification all his life and carry out the Juche-orientated line and policy for national reunification.

Flexible Implementaion of The Three Charters
The three charters for the country's reunification set forth by the great leader are the programmatic guide which all our nation that desires reunification must support. The specific method may change in the struggle for the country's reunification with t he change in the situation, but the basic principles and standpoint for the country's reunification can never change. In the future we must reunify the country on the basis of the three charters for the country's reunification no matter how the situation and circumstance may change.
To maintain the Juche character and preserve the national character in shaping the destiny of the country and the nation is a principled requirement for the country's independence, sovereignty and growth in its wealth and strength and for the prosperity o f the nation.

By adhering to the Juche character and the national character and brilliantly embodying them during the whole period of his leadership of our revolution, the great leader comrade Kim Il Sung achieved the historic cause of national liberation, established a powerful socialist state that is independent, self-sufficient and self-reliant in defense and ensured the display of our nation's unfathomable strength, talent and unbreakable spirit to the whole world.

The lines and charters for the country's reunification advanced by comrade Kim Il Sung are motivated by the principled requirement for adhering to the Juche character and the national character and are permeated with them. To thoroughly maintain and embod y the Juche character and the national character in the struggle for the reunification and independence of the country is the basic guarantee for reunifying the country successfully in accordance with the interests and desire of our nation.

National Independence
The country must be reunified at all events on the principle of national independence. Maintenance of the principle of national independence is fundamental to adhering to the Juche character and the national character.
All nations have the right to shape their destiny by their own hands and independently according to their will. Nobody can deprive a nation of its right to independence or infringe upon it. Since the reunification of our country is an affair of our nation and concerns its right to independence, our nation must achieve it by its own efforts as the master in accordance with its independent will and desire.

In order to reunify the country on the principle of national independence, all the members of the nation must arm themselves firmly with the consciousness of national independence and thoroughly oppose and reject flunkeyism and the idea of dependence on f oreign forces.

The consciousness of national independence is ideological strength, which makes the nation powerful and the country prosper, whereas flunkeyism and the idea of dependence on foreign forces is an ideological poison that makes a nation disgraceful and powe rless.

That flunkeyism and the idea of dependence on foreign forces lead to the ruin of the nation is the serious and bitter lesson our nation learned through a long history of national suffering. Our country was occupied by the Japanese imperialists, the early communist movement failed, and the nationalist movement suffered frustration because, in the final analysis, of flunkeyism which meant disbelieving its own strength and grovel before big powers.

Even after the liberation of the country, the successive rulers of south Korea committed anti-reunification treachery to the country and the nation, with the backing of the United States, following its aggressive policy. Attempting to find a solution to t he problem of national reunification and to win back the sovereignty of the nation by depending on foreign forces is a foolish act which is tantamount to putting one's neck into the noose of slavery of its own accord.

In order to keep the sovereignty and dignity of the nation and to reunify the country in accordance with the will and interests of the nation, we must reject flunkeyism and dependence on foreign forces and resolutely fight against the aggression and inter ference of foreign forces.

We will never allow any attempt to realize an aggressive and dominationist ambition through interference in our country's reunification. We must struggle more strongly for the country's reunification upholding the banner of national independence and thus achieve the complete independence and sovereignty of the country and the nation.

Unity of the People
In order to reunify the country independently, we must build up the force of our own nation. The great unity of the entire nation is the decisive guarantee for the independent and peaceful reunification of the country. Our nation is directly responsible f or national reunification, and no one can take our place in the struggle to reunify our country.
Only when the entire nation is united firmly under the banner of great national unity and strengthens the driving force of national reunification can we defeat the attempts of the divisive forces at home and abroad and accomplish the cause of the country' s reunification.

In order to achieve great national unity we should put the common interests of the nation above all else, relegating the differences in thoughts, ideas and systems to the background, and hold fast to the principle of uniting on this basis. The country's r eunification is not a matter of settling any class contradictions within our nation or antagonism between social systems

It is the national cause of establishing the nation's sovereignty all over the country. No class or stratum can exist outside the nation and no independence for the members of the nation can be ensured without the independence of the nation. Today when re unifying the country is the supreme task of the nation, no class or stratum should place their interests above the common national interests.

No matter how great the difference in ideologies and systems existing in the north and south may be, it cannot be greater than our national community which has been formed and consolidated and developed over a long period of history. When the north and th e south put the national community and the common national interests to the fore and desire the country's reunification, they can achieve the great unity of the entire nation transcending differences in ideologies and social systems.

Love for the country and the nation is the common ideological feeling of all members of the nation and the ideological basis of national unity. To love ardently the country and the nation and value most the national dignity are our nation's proud traditio n and the national characteristics. Anyone who has the blood and soul of the Korean nation must treasure and preserve the admirable national character of the Korean people.

Today the true value and worth of life for the Koreans lies in linking their destiny with the destiny of the nation and devoting themselves heart and soul to the noble cause of the country's reunification and independence and the prosperity of the nation. Everyone who loves the country and the nation and is concerned over their destiny whether he or she lives in the north, in the south or abroad, must unite firmly under the banner of national reunification, regardless of the differences in ideologies and ideas, religious beliefs and political views, class and stratum.

Coexistence - North and South
We maintain that the north and the south join their efforts to promote co-existence, co-prosperity and common interests and achieve the great cause of the country's reunification transcending the differences in ideologies and social systems. We will join hands with those who take the road of national reunification with national conscience, regardless of their ideas and religious beliefs, and even if they are capitalists, army generals or high authorities. Even those who have committed crimes against the n ation in the past, if they repent of their mistakes and come round to the side of the nation, we will cross off all their past, treat them with generosity and unite with them.
Our Party's line and policy for great national unity constitute all-embracing politics based on love for the country, nation and people. Our consistent policy is to pursue all-embracing politics invariably in the whole process of the struggle for the reun ification, independence, and prosperity of the country.

The line of great national unity which fully embodies the idea of love for the country, nation and people has fully demonstrated its validity and vitality in the long-drawn-out struggle for the restoration of the fatherland, for the building of a new soc iety and for national reunification. We will respect the ideologies, ideas and religions of all parties, organizations and people that aspire after patriotism and turn out for the cause of reunification, and unite with them, thereby fulfilling our duty an d remaining loyal to the nation.

Reunifying the country in a peaceful way without recourse to the armed forces is our principled position and the consistent line of our Party.

There is no reason why we fellow countrymen should fight among ourselves on the question of national reunification.

The difference in thoughts and systems existing in the north and the south is not a ground for the use of armed forces.

One cannot accept any idea and system under coercion and the difference in ideologies and systems between the north and the south cannot be abolished by a coercive method. If the north and the south fight against each other, our nation will suffer the rav ages of war and the imperialists will profit from it. The peaceful reunification of Korea is not only the desire of our nation but also the aspiration of the peace-loving people of the world. Everyone who loves the country and nation and values peace must exert all his or her efforts for the peaceful reunification of the country.

Against War
In order to ensure peace in the Korean Peninsula and achieve the peaceful reunification of the country, we must oppose the moves towards aggression and war and eliminate the danger of war.
Without the struggle against the moves towards aggression and war, it would be impossible to ensure peace and think of peaceful reunification. At present, the maneuvers of the United States and the south Korean rulers against socialism and our Republic ha ve aggravated the tension and created the danger of war breaking out in the Korean Peninsula any minute.

The question of easing the tension and removing the danger of war in our country can be settled, before all else, when the United States gives up its hostile policy against our republic and a peace treaty is concluded between the DPRK and the U.S. Our Rep ublic and the United States are still in the state of temporary armistice and the danger of war has not been dispelled from our country. In order to remove the danger of war and ensure peace, a peace treaty must be concluded between DPRK and the United St ates and a new peace-keeping mechanism must be established. In addition, it is imperative to reaffirm the nonaggression agreement between the north and the south already published to the world and implements it thoroughly.

Although the United States clamors about "the end of Cold War" and "easing of the tension". It is invariably resorting to the "policy of power", threatening us with ceaseless military exercises and aggressive maneuvers and instigating the south Korean ru lers to war provocation hullabaloo. Trying to bring us to our knees by military threat or pressure is a foolish attempt and a dangerous act.

We will defend our socialism firmly and never tolerate anyone to infringe upon the sovereignty and dignity of our nation. Strengthening the revolutionary armed forces to defend the security of the country and people against the moves of the imperialists a nd the south Korean rulers to provoke war is a natural step to self-defense.

The imperialist war-maniacs should refrain from attempting to test our military power by means of their armed forces or to frighten or bring our people to their knees by military threat and provocation's. Such a reckless act will be a dangerous adventure, which may end in inviting a terrible catastrophe to them. We never want war We are making consistent efforts to reunify the country peacefully.

Confederation
The most reasonable way to settle the question of Korean reunification smoothly is to reunify the country on the basis of Confederation.
Our nation wants to reunify the country as soon as possible in a reasonable way acceptable to everyone. Over half a century has passed since the different systems were established in the north and the south. If, in these circumstances, one side tries to r eunify the country under its system, it will further aggravate the state of division, let alone reunification, and end in an irretrievable national disaster.

In view of the urgent requirement of our nation and the situation in the country, the best way to reunify the country as soon as possible is to establish a unified nation- state of Confederation based on one nation, one state, two systems and two governm ents.

Reunification through confederation is a fair and rational way for reunification, which does not attach weight to the advantages or interests of only one side or harm any side. Confederate reunification will also contribute to removing the danger of war a lways hanging over the Korean Peninsula and ensuring peace and security of the world.

If the country is reunified by confederation, our nation will establish sovereignty throughout the country and achieve great unity as one nation Our country will become a unified nation-state, independent, peace-loving and neutral. The reunified confedera te state will not infringe upon the interests of neighboring countries and threaten them.

The Three Charters - The Road to Reunification
We will advance dynamically along the road of national reunification under the banner of the three charters of national reunification set forth by the great leader comrade Kim Il Sung without a slightest vacillation in any difficulty and trial.
Improving the relations between the north and the south is an urgent requirement for achieving the independent and peaceful reunification of the country.

Only when the relations between the north and the south are converted from the relations of distrust and confrontation into those of trust and reconciliation, can the country be reunified independently and peacefully by the united efforts of the whole nat ion.

The trend of national reunification is now mounting unprecedentedly, but the relations between the north and the south are more strained and acute than ever before. The present south Korean authorities who do not care a straw about the destiny of the nat ion and national reunification are trying to find a way out by aggravating tension and confrontation between the north and the south, being afraid of their power foothold being shaken to its roots.

South Korea's War Threats
They have pushed north-south relations into a critical state and are unprecedentedly intensifying warmongering maneuvers against the north in collusion with foreign forces. Since the appearance of the present "regime" in south Korea, confrontation has been aggravated between the north and the south instead of reconciliation, and the danger of war increased instead of peace. Having thrown the north-south relations into the worst state is an indelible anti-reunification crime and a treachery to the count ry and nation committed by the present south Korean authorities.
In order to improve the relations between the north and the south and effect a change towards national reunification, the south Korean authorities, before anything else, should desist from depending on foreign forces and "cooperating" with them, oppose and reject them by uniting the efforts with their fellow countrymen from the stand of national independence.

National independence or dependence on foreign forces is a touchstone, which distinguishes reunification from division, patriotism from treachery. If anyone takes the road of "cooperating" with foreign forces by depending on them, turning his back on the nation and shutting his eyes to the nation's own force, he will be forsaken by the nation and punished by history. Only when the south Korean authorities take the stand of national independence and patriotism, can the relations between the north and the s outh will develop into the relations of trust and reconciliation and a breakthrough are made for national reunification.

The south Korean authorities must change their policy and take the stand of national independence which values and depends on the nation They must adopt a policy of shaping the destiny of the country and the nation by joining efforts with their fellow cou ntrymen.

Removing the political confrontation between the north and the south is a prerequisite for improving the relations between the north and the south. Only when it is removed, can the military confrontation be eliminated and further, national reconciliation and unity be realized.

The south Korean authorities must have a true sense of national fellowship, change their hostile anti-north confrontation policy into reconciliation policy of alliance with the north They must refrain from creating misunderstanding and distrust between th e north and the south and hampering national reconciliation and unity.

Military confrontation, in addition to political confrontation, must be removed to ease tension.

The military confrontation between north and south gives rise to distrust and misunderstanding between fellow countrymen and makes it impossible to trust and reconcile each other. It will also aggravate tension and lead to national calamity. Without remov ing military confrontation is it impossible to improve the north-south relations and expect peace in the Korean Peninsula and peaceful reunification.

In south Korea, at present, they are clamoring about fictitious "threat to invade the south". However, it is not the "threat to invade the south" but the threat to invade the north that really exists in our country. Were it not for the threat to invade the north, the military confrontation between north and south would be removed.

The south Korean authorities must abandon their dangerous war policy and ease tension. In south Korea they must stop arms build-up and the import of weapons from abroad, discontinue the joint military exercises with the foreign armed forces and refrain fr om committing reckless military provocation.

Political Freedom in South Korea
In order to remove the confrontation between north and south and promote national reconciliation and unity, the social and political life in south Korea must be democratized. Whoever comes into power, as long as the fascist rule continues in south Korea, it will be impossible to remove the confrontation between north and south or to think of free discussion and activity for national reunification by political parties, groups and people from all walks of life in south Korea.
Worse still, as long as the wicked law against the nation and reunification, like the "National Security Law" which defines the same race as the enemy, regards it as criminal to have a contact and exchange among the people and persons from various circles in the north and the south and suppresses the patriotic forces for reunification in south Korea, national reconciliation, unity and the contact and exchange between north and south will never be realized. The tortuous history of the national reunificatio n movement, which started, with the division of the nation shows that as long as the "National Security Law" exists in south Korea, no progress will be made in the north-south relations.

Today the reality in which the patriotic forces of reunification and democracy are being suppressed by the " National Security Law" in south Korea and the north-south relations are in the worst state requires democratization as an imperative task. The "N ational Security Law" which distresses the south Korean people and causes harm to all the nation must be abolished, and political freedom and democratic rights, such as the freedom of discussion and activity of political parties, groups and strata for na tional reunification must be guaranteed in south Korea.

These problems must be solved to improve the north-south relations and open a new phase for national reunification.

If the south Korean authorities give up the present anti-national and anti-reunification confrontation policy and make positive change in practice to live up to the expectation of the entire nation, we will meet them at any time to negotiate with an open heart about the destiny of the nation and make joint efforts for the country's reunification. We will watch their attitude and actions.

US-Korea
In order to find a correct solution to the Korean question, the countries concerned must play a positive role with a sincere attitude of helping Korea's reunification.
They must respect the sovereignty and the reunification will of our nation and closely cooperate to facilitate our nation's effort to reunify their country independently and peacefully.

The United States, a party who is directly responsible for the Korean question, must sincerely implement its signed commitment and duty. It must radically change its anachronistic policy towards Korea and refrain from interfering with the independent and peaceful reunification of Korea. We have no intention to regard the United States as our eternal sworn enemy We hope to normalize the Korea-U.S. relationship.

The Korea-U.S. relations will be developed in the interests of the peoples of the two countries if the United States rids itself of the outdated idea of the cold-war age, desists from approaching the Korean question with power politics and facilitates the peace and reunification of the Korean peninsula.

Japan-Korea
Japan, which imposed immeasurable misfortune and disaster upon our people in the past, must sincerely reflect upon her past, give up her hostile policy towards our Republic and stop instigating the division of Korea and hindering her reunification. Then w e will take a friendly approach to Japan, our neighbor, and the abnormal relations between Korea and Japan will be improved.
70 Milion Koreans Unite!
The future of our people's struggle for the country's reunification is not smooth, but the reunification of their country, the cherished desire of our nation, will be achieved without fail. When Korea is reunified, our country will make its appearance on the world arena with great dignity as a rich and powerful, independent and sovereign state with a 70 million population, and our nation will exalt its pride of being a resourceful, dignified and great nation.
We must unfold a nationwide struggle to carry out the great leader comrade Kim Il Sung's instructions for reunification and thus hasten the historic day when our 70 million compatriots will live happily in the unified country. 

[Red Heretic]

Juche and the DPRK in reality has more in common with a national liberation movement that an actual socialist revolution. The DPRK was never a socialist country though it has always claimed to be, and for this reason, I think the DPRK is deserving of the label "revisionist."

[Iron Bolshevik]

Originally posted by viva le [email protected] 22 2005, 04:20 AM
Please read up on stalin. marxists.org has a good database. particularly " marxism and the national question".
Glad to be of help.
www.marx2mao.com is an excellent source of Stalin's works as well. I highly recommend going there as well.

[ReD_ReBeL]

can someone tell me all the acheivements and disasters that Kim Jong Il has created ? and what his plans are for the future of North korea? plz

[13lackjack]

I detest Kim Jong Il, for one. If one disregards all of the political agendas that you men and women have been arguing about, and simply look at what he has actually done, you might see what I'm trying to say.


For the people that are arguing about his lack of enthusiasm in ending the famine:

Instead of spending aid packages on food for his people, Kim Jong-Il bought 10 Mercedes Benz cars.

For the people that say that Kim Jong-Il looks out for the best interest of his people:

He has many camp facilities with holding rooms as large as a walk-in closet which are designed to hold 150 people. The people can be left in there for 1-2 days, and are usually given no food, and very, very little water. This is simply inhumane, and the list goes on.


Western media hasn't really focused on North Korea as much as they should, as they are currently tied up in the Middle East, but the Japanese media covers them on a daily basis. I know that the stuff that I've said is true, as I've either seen pictures of them, or defectors have testified to them.


And for the person who said that they've never seen a racist in North Korea:

Many, many North Koreans hate the Japanese.

[donnie_middel1]

for all of those ppl who apparently despise the Dear Leader,. u are nothing more then Imperialist puppets aimed at trying to end communism, u dont know anything about the DPRK, or the dear leader, except from what u hear from the Imperialist And racist american government and media outlets, u believe nasa photographs which are clearly altered, to make a case for an american invasion, in order to have all of korea ruled by them, so until u actually have the real facts dont u dare try to criticize the one man who actually cares about his ppl, and who has sacrificed so much to help them, he is the glorious hero of the revolution, and he will stand an eternity with the solidarity of his ppl and of the KFA, GOD BLESS THE KOREAN WORKERS PARTY, LONG LIVE THE DEMOCRATIC PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF KOREA, AND GLORY BE TO THE DEAR LEADER KIM JONG IL,

FOR ALL OF U IMPERIALIST AGRRESSORS I HAVE THIS TO SAY,

WE DONT WANT YOU , WE DONT NEED YOU!!!!!!!

[Dark Exodus]

Please articulate your points, rather than rambling on into propoganda.


GOD BLESS THE KOREAN WORKERS PARTY, LONG LIVE THE DEMOCRATIC PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF KOREA, AND GLORY BE TO THE DEAR LEADER KIM JONG IL,


No-one else will, that's certain.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 05:28 AM
for all of those ppl who apparently despise the Dear Leader,. u are nothing more then Imperialist puppets aimed at trying to end communism

(Snip rabid bullshit)
I'm seriously doubting this guy's sanity. I can easily imagine him foaming at the mouth as he types such irrational drivel.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 11:51 AM
Kim Jong Il and his regime are fascists wrapped in red flags.

I am actually astonished that some people here support him.
Firstly, let me make clear that I do not support the dogmatic rants of donnie_middel. I do see faults in the DPRK and its leadership. I also don't think we should completely isolate ourselves from the bourgeois media - we should analyse their content, see what is true and what is merely hearsay and rumours(which is the difference between me and the KFA - both myself and other KFA members got expelled from the organisation for simply suggesting this). I am very much opposed to the dogmatic worship of the KFA.

Still though, I have to ask for any reason why the DPRK is "fascist". Using the word "fascist" as a buzzword for whatever you disagree with is appalling.


fair enough he fought off the US, but u think a leader who lives in practically a palace and wealth and so does his elitists lives an 'upper class' life, while all his fellow North korean people live in practically shit, u call him a dear leader?
he spends more on military thn on his own people
Can you explain some more about how they supposedly live "upper class"? The "Palaces" that exist in the DPRK are public property and open to anyone for different uses, like school trips.


the fact remains that he hoards nukes, he starves his people - kills anyone who disagrees with him and cares nothing for equality, freedom or peace.
I don't see the problem with having weapons that will deter an enemy that you are officially still at war with from invading. How does he "starve" his own people though? If anything, the endless campaigns to work every inch of arable land is not a sign of starving his people, but, on the contrary, doing everything possible to feed them. The "kills anyone who disagrees with him" is a very simplistic and plainly untrue statement. and I don't think anybody can know for certain what he "cares" for.


(and why aren't you locked away in Opposing Ideologies with such a bizarre love of a fascist dictator?)
This is ridiculous. Looks like you are actually quite interested in silencing voices of dissent as well - how ironic! And how sheepish to brand KJI as a "fascist dictator"! Explain how he is a "fascist dictator", or such phrases will simply be translated as "baahh!! moo!!" for me.


if you have ever talked to the user 'Ixabert' he can offer a plethora of information regarding the DPRK, and has refuted many delusional claims of tyranny and oppression.
I wasn't aware of Ixabert being active here. He posts articles on the DPRK under the name "D.P.R.K." a lot over here (http://soviet-empire.politicsforum.org/ussr/viewforum.php?f=131) though.


Splurging on palaces and nuclear weapons? Hardly the work of a proletariat. He's just another fascist, perhaps even worse than Stalin, since Stalin had the Great Patriotic War and all North Korea has is shit. Literally.
Already gone over this, but let's do it once more: no, he doesn't waste money on palaces, nuclear weapons are not a positive thing to have, but given the circumstances there is an obvious reason for it... blablabla, you get the point.


Any person who makes his people worship him and eat tree bark because of extreme famine should be shot
I agree. Has nothing to do with the topic at hand though.


can someone tell me all the acheivements and disasters that Kim Jong Il has created ? and what his plans are for the future of North korea? plz
From what I've read he seems to be more pragmatic, for example, instead of the not-so good rice harvests, he instead decided a lot more land should be used for potatoes, which are easier to grow there. I'll get back to this later, I've got to go in a sec.


Instead of spending aid packages on food for his people, Kim Jong-Il bought 10 Mercedes Benz cars.
Source?


He has many camp facilities with holding rooms as large as a walk-in closet which are designed to hold 150 people. The people can be left in there for 1-2 days, and are usually given no food, and very, very little water. This is simply inhumane, and the list goes on.
Again: what?


I know that the stuff that I've said is true, as I've either seen pictures of them, or defectors have testified to them.
Pictures of what? You're telling me you have seen pictures of KJI pondering over which Mercedes he's going to drive today, or of people being tortured in concentration camps? Also, how reliable are the testimonies of defectors? Do you think that these people do not get money for appearing on TV shows about the DPRK?


Many, many North Koreans hate the Japanese.
I'd like to see some evidence of this. I'd say Americans are more hated, and western visitors usually report that North Koreans make a fine distinction between western/American people in general, and their governments. Read this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries...e-of-mind.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/state-of-mind.shtml)

[kingbee]

re: the last point- i'm sure north koreans do hate the japanese. as do many south koreans, chinese, etc. it's generally seen as a bully in the area, from my experience.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 03:01 PM
re: the last point- i'm sure north koreans do hate the japanese. as do many south koreans, chinese, etc. it's generally seen as a bully in the area, from my experience.
I think that has to do with the issue of Japanese history textbooks or something, at least the Chinese were pretty pissed off about it, as well as the South Koreans in a similar incident. While we can all agree that there have been tensions on this matter, I must say that it is something the Japanese can solve by distancing themselves from the imperialist past. Also, "hating the Japanese" is very broad. Hatred against the entire Japanese people is probably not even that common in the region. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[ReD_ReBeL]

Monday, Feb. 11, 2002
When bodyguard Lee Young Kuk first saw his boss body boarding in a private indoor swimming pool, he knew not to show his reaction. But it was a scene he could hardly forget: Kim Jong Il, North Korea's current leader, in a bathing cap, splashing around in a seven-story pleasure palace equipped with bar, karaoke machine, a mini movie theater—everything a Dear Leader could want. The ground floor had an enormous swimming pool with a wave machine. Kim liked to get on a body board fitted with a small motor and tool around in the artificial waves. A pretty nurse and female doctor always accompanied him in the pool, swimming under their own power. Says Lee: "I wasn't surprised. You don't doubt anything—he has absolute power."

Today Lee is a doubter—and a whistle blower. His 11 years as one of Kim's bodyguards gave him a unique view of the reclusive man who runs a country labeled last month by U.S. President George W. Bush as one of the world's most dangerous terrorist states. Lee traveled with Kim on visits to farms and factories and guarded his palatial residences. He stood watch as Kim bossed around underlings and partied with scantily clad women. He saw luxury and excess that later came to appall him. Disillusioned, Lee fled, but was caught and thrown into one of North Korea's political prisons. He is one of a handful of inmates who have emerged alive.

[Iconoclast]

Kim Jong-Il is yet another false communist who bring dishonor to the mission's reputation. He ought to be shot.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 05:33 PM
Monday, Feb. 11, 2002
When bodyguard Lee Young Kuk first saw his boss body boarding in a private indoor swimming pool, he knew not to show his reaction. But it was a scene he could hardly forget: Kim Jong Il, North Korea's current leader, in a bathing cap, splashing around in a seven-story pleasure palace equipped with bar, karaoke machine, a mini movie theater—everything a Dear Leader could want. The ground floor had an enormous swimming pool with a wave machine. Kim liked to get on a body board fitted with a small motor and tool around in the artificial waves. A pretty nurse and female doctor always accompanied him in the pool, swimming under their own power. Says Lee: "I wasn't surprised. You don't doubt anything—he has absolute power."

Today Lee is a doubter—and a whistle blower. His 11 years as one of Kim's bodyguards gave him a unique view of the reclusive man who runs a country labeled last month by U.S. President George W. Bush as one of the world's most dangerous terrorist states. Lee traveled with Kim on visits to farms and factories and guarded his palatial residences. He stood watch as Kim bossed around underlings and partied with scantily clad women. He saw luxury and excess that later came to appall him. Disillusioned, Lee fled, but was caught and thrown into one of North Korea's political prisons. He is one of a handful of inmates who have emerged alive.
Source? Evidence that this ever happened? Why the sensationalist language? This is useless. This article is just some random smear. Tell me something, would you believe me if I said this:


Monday, Feb. 11, 2002

When bodyguard so-and-so first saw his boss body boarding in a private indoor swimming pool, he knew not to show his reaction. But it was a scene he could hardly forget: Fidel Castro, Cuba's current leader, in a bathing cap, splashing around in a seven-story pleasure palace equipped with bar, karaoke machine, a mini movie theater—everything a hero of the revolution could want. The ground floor had an enormous swimming pool with a wave machine. Fidel liked to get on a body board fitted with a small motor and tool around in the artificial waves. A pretty nurse and female doctor always accompanied him in the pool, swimming under their own power. Says so-and-so: "I wasn't surprised. You don't doubt anything—he has absolute power."

Today so-and-so is a doubter—and a whistle blower. His 11 years as one of Fidel's bodyguards gave him a unique view of the reclusive man who runs a country labeled last month by U.S. President George W. Bush as one of the world's most dangerous communist states. So-and-so traveled with Fidel on visits to farms and factories and guarded his palatial residences. He stood watch as Fidel bossed around underlings and partied with scantily clad women. He saw luxury and excess that later came to appall him. Disillusioned, so-and-so fled, but was caught and thrown into one of Cuba's political prisons. He is one of a handful of inmates who have emerged alive.

[ReD_ReBeL]

I wasn't stateing wether i believed it or not, i was displaying it , to show you and see what you people thought of it, sorry i didnt make it as clear, personally i dunno if its true or not i've never been to North korea, never met any1 from north Korea , so i can't truely comment if its true or not, just on what i hear from news, newspapers etc etc

[DPRK Soldier]

This entire Post is uncalled for and should be closed at once, there is no facts to any of these satements, and until u can provide actuall facts then ur all juss puppets of the Bougoise, The Dear Leader has never done anything to harm his on ppl, they are his family , now if anyone wants to know the true story about the DPRK then visit http://www.korea-dpr.com but until u know the facts How Dare u critize our Glorious Leader

[Commie Rat]

Shut this dear leader crap up.

Fuck you guys are pissing me off.

1) DPRK is a hole
2) The media makes is look worse then it is
3) that doesn't stop it from being a hole

Methinks DPRK soldier is a 10 year old on his moms computer in LA
DPRK soldier have you ever served for the DPRK
i think not

nobody like a poser

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 10:03 PM
I wasn't stateing wether i believed it or not, i was displaying it , to show you and see what you people thought of it, sorry i didnt make it as clear, personally i dunno if its true or not i've never been to North korea, never met any1 from north Korea , so i can't truely comment if its true or not, just on what i hear from news, newspapers etc etc
Fair enough. As it is, I've heard this particular one before, although not the very same article, they were interviewing this bodyguard and he was talking about Kim's supposed hot chicks again. They also had some awesome training footage of those bodyguards, at some point one of them threw the sharper side of a shovel right at another guy's chest, he didn't even mind.

But anyway, I'm drifting off. I'm probably going to visit the DPRK in three years or something like that, perhaps I'll be able to see the Mass Games or some celebration(doubt it, but who knows...). For some first impressions, you can find travel logs here (http://www.stat.ualberta.ca/people/schmu/nk.html). I found this one made by two Dutch guys from April 2004 particularly good:

http://home.hccnet.nl/fp.grootveld/1000009...9001/index.html (http://home.hccnet.nl/fp.grootveld/10000095830ac9001/index.html)

[khalam_1232000]

i think things are to bias when it comes to the DPRK, u can never get an un bias opinion wheter tis the DPRK, or imperialist nations, and the disrespect among other comrades here is shocking, i dont support the DPRK to the extent that some ppl here do, however, they are socialist so i do support them as far as that is concerned, but i think whether someone supports them or not is not anyones buisness, if he wants to support the DPRK, let him, yes the media puts the DPRK down, and yes the DPRK needs to do alot of reforms to make it pure again but still

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by DPRK Soldier+Nov 24 2005, 05:24 AM--> (DPRK Soldier @ Nov 24 2005, 05:24 AM) now if anyone wants to know the true story about the DPRK then visit http://www.korea-dpr.com but until u know the facts How Dare u critize our Glorious Leader [/b]
Yeah, and click on enter to see THIS (http://www.korea-dpr.com/pmenu.htm):

"The Leaders are the sun of the nation and mankind"?????

"The Great Leader Kim Il Sung"?????

"The Great Leader Kim Jong IL"???????????

Then THIS (http://www.korea-dpr.com/about.jpg)??? "...can't be copied or reproduced without the written permission of the Korean Friendship Association"??? Nice way to move towards communism! :rolleyes:

Dunno if this counts as breaking that "rule", but I'll quote this crap even at the risk of getting nuked.

From the "history" section:


stupid north korean crap website
...but the people totally trusted the Leader and the leader trusted in the heroic people!

Yeah sure!


...and with the firm faith in the victory of the revolution,...

Yeah, because we need faith... :rolleyes:


Pyongyang and today's North Korea is a socialist paradise...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!


...the invisibility and union of the masses around the Leader.

Need I say more?

The FAQ:


8. Can I travel to North Korea as a backpacker? (Independant travel)
No. You must travel as a group only, even if you are the only participant you must be with Korean guides at all times.

WHY?


No, the DPRK is a multi-party constitutional democracy guaranteeing freedom of speech and assembly to all citizens. DPRK citizens play an active role in their nation's political life at the local, regional and national levels, through their trade unions or as members of one of the nation's three political parties, which include the Workers' Party of Korea, the Chondoist Chongu Party and the Korean Social Democratic Party.

:lol:


On the contrary, the DPRK enjoys a highly diverse and productive economy with a wide array of thriving manufacturing industries that produce automobiles, computer hardware and software, electronics, textiles and processed foods, just to name a few.

?!?!


In our country, freedom of worship is guaranteed under the Constitution. More than 50,000 copies of the Bible have been printed in our country, translated into Korean by members of our federation.

Who paid for this?


Does it make sense to attack other sources as biased and bourgeois while claiming the "true story" is the one given by the actual North Korean government (if it is from the actual government)? What a contradiction.

[LA GUERRA OLVIDADA]

I regard Kim Jong Il as a wacko who wants to be worshipped by his people. He's also a dictator and gives his people no freedom whatsoever.

Fuck Kim Jong Il and his totalitarian regime.

[Correa]

North Korea holds public executions while warning spectators that "This is what happens to anyone who challenges Kim will". With this alone I make a case the Kim must be brought down and crushed like the tyrant he is! Anyone who defends this man needs to reconsider their position.

[kingbee]

Originally posted by Matthijs+Nov 23 2005, 03:31 PM--> (Matthijs @ Nov 23 2005, 03:31 PM)
[email protected] 23 2005, 03:01 PM
re: the last point- i'm sure north koreans do hate the japanese. as do many south koreans, chinese, etc. it's generally seen as a bully in the area, from my experience.
I think that has to do with the issue of Japanese history textbooks or something, at least the Chinese were pretty pissed off about it, as well as the South Koreans in a similar incident. While we can all agree that there have been tensions on this matter, I must say that it is something the Japanese can solve by distancing themselves from the imperialist past. Also, "hating the Japanese" is very broad. Hatred against the entire Japanese people is probably not even that common in the region. Correct me if I'm wrong. [/b]
well i was speaking to one chinese girl, who lamented the fact that in order to study english, she also had to study japanese. she said " i don't like the language, i don't like the country, and i don't like the people"!

obviously though, this is only one example, but it has been the only time japan has come up in coversation when i've been in china!

[celticfire]

See my N. Korea Link! (http://www.korea-dpr.com/kfa2006/)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

North Korea is a fuedalist monarchy, and are guilty of crimes against the people. Not saying S. Korea is any better -- their not. But I don't like bosses with red veils! :(

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 05:17 AM
North Korea holds public executions while warning spectators that "This is what happens to anyone who challenges Kim will". With this alone I make a case the Kim must be brought down and crushed like the tyrant he is! Anyone who defends this man needs to reconsider their position.
Evidence of this execution at all?
Evidence that they actually said that to the spectators?
Evidence that the person who got executed, was executed for nonviolent dissent?


See my N. Korea Link! (http://www.korea-dpr.com/kfa2006/)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

North Korea is a fuedalist monarchy, and are guilty of crimes against the people. Not saying S. Korea is any better -- their not. But I don't like bosses with red veils! :(
Great argument. :rolleyes:

[WUOrevolt]

North Korea, China, the former regime in Burma, the former Yugoslavia, the USSR, Cuba, in my opinion all give a bad name to socialism and are not really socialists. Although Cuba is the least hated of all the ones i have and have not mentioned.

[ReD_ReBeL]

Heres a article on the 'suspected' public executions in North korea.Public Executions Link (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA240041997?open&of=ENG-PRK)

[WUOrevolt]

Holy shit, that is horrible, two brothers were executed just for stealing rice from a train, ridicluous. As someone who is an extreme anti authoritarian, I will never back North Korea, as they are just quazi fascism.

[Reds]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 11:28 PM
North Korea, China, the former regime in Burma, the former Yugoslavia, the USSR, Cuba, in my opinion all give a bad name to socialism and are not really socialists. Although Cuba is the least hated of all the ones i have and have not mentioned.
Cuba?!! what the hell did Cuba and former Yugoslavia do that was so bad.

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by Reds+Dec 17 2005, 05:27 AM--> (Reds @ Dec 17 2005, 05:27 AM)
[email protected] 16 2005, 11:28 PM
North Korea, China, the former regime in Burma, the former Yugoslavia, the USSR, Cuba, in my opinion all give a bad name to socialism and are not really socialists. Although Cuba is the least hated of all the ones i have and have not mentioned.
Cuba?!! what the hell did Cuba and former Yugoslavia do that was so bad. [/b]
Cuba's authoritarianism and the former Yugoslavaia's ethnic cleansing campaign.

[Correa]

Cuba is perhaps the least authoritarian country in the globe! What the hell are you talking about?

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 06:41 AM
Cuba is perhaps the least authoritarian country in the globe! What the hell are you talking about?
In the Cuban constitution it states that due process of law can be suspended in all cases in which the goal of the cuban people to build socialism is attacked. Sounds a little authoritarian to me.

[Correa]

Sounds good to me.

[*PRC*Kensei]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 06:27 PM
personaly my opinion towards the North korean Dictatorship is negative i regard KIM as a trannt who doesnt care and take his people's views into regard and is so focused on keeping western influences out of his country he forgets about his peoples needs.
i'm new to this btw, so hey
well,

look, he's know as a tiran and it's generally accepted the communist community doesnt want to have a lot to do with him.

I'm not gonna question if he's a fool or not, just a little detail: he stand economically far above his people, which does not fit in the communist systhem, you can say about stalin what u want, he was not afther mony.

but correa is accepted like it is in the world now... and kim WILL die, like any human beeings, and logically a little softer dude will take his place... (like after stalin, mao) so i dont see a real problem. aslong as BUSH doesnt come between...

[Reds]

Originally posted by leftistmarleyist+Dec 17 2005, 01:32 AM--> (leftistmarleyist @ Dec 17 2005, 01:32 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 05:27 AM

[email protected] 16 2005, 11:28 PM
North Korea, China, the former regime in Burma, the former Yugoslavia, the USSR, Cuba, in my opinion all give a bad name to socialism and are not really socialists. Although Cuba is the least hated of all the ones i have and have not mentioned.
Cuba?!! what the hell did Cuba and former Yugoslavia do that was so bad.
Cuba's authoritarianism and the former Yugoslavaia's ethnic cleansing campaign. [/b]
ethnic cleansing did not occur until after the fall of socialism

[*PRC*Kensei]

Originally posted by Reds+Dec 17 2005, 03:07 PM--> (Reds @ Dec 17 2005, 03:07 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 05:27 AM

[email protected] 16 2005, 11:28 PM
North Korea, China, the former regime in Burma, the former Yugoslavia, the USSR, Cuba, in my opinion all give a bad name to socialism and are not really socialists. Although Cuba is the least hated of all the ones i have and have not mentioned.
Cuba?!! what the hell did Cuba and former Yugoslavia do that was so bad.
Cuba's authoritarianism and the former Yugoslavaia's ethnic cleansing campaign.
ethnic cleansing did not occur until after the fall of socialism [/b]
to leftist marxist: the country's u name have put communism on the map. good or bad impresion, they turned an idea, which could have just faded away under pressure of capitalism, into something real. If they did it well is an open dicussion.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 11:36 PM
Heres a article on the 'suspected' public executions in North korea.Public Executions Link (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA240041997?open&of=ENG-PRK)
I said evidence, not speculation. This article only says that they believe such things happen because other people have said so. It's just hearsay: "Hey, get this, someone just told me they do public executions in North Korea!" While such reports are worrying, their reliability cannot be ensured, and form no basis by which a country can be condemned. Let's have a look at them:


Two brothers convicted of stealing rice from a train, executed in Hamhung City in 1982/3
I'll overlook the fact that there is no evidence for any of these executions, and I'll just assume there is. Still, look at the date. Practices in the 80s under a different leader may not be the same as they are now. Also, what exactly are the circumstances of the crime? How much food was stolen? How old were these brothers? It seems the accusers of Amnesty would love to believe that these were some poor 8-year-old kids stealing a handful of rice to feed their poor, ill mother or something like that. But what if these were large amounts of food by two people notorious for such theft, and food shortages in the area were already so severe that their greed(either because they wanted to eat more than the rest, or because they wanted to sell it) caused tens or hundreds of people to starve? I'm using an extreme "what-if" here of course.


Four men convicted of banditry, executed in Chongjin City in 1970 and 1974/5
So what did these bandits do, exactly? And yet another outdated records, from the bloody seventies!


Two men convicted of assaulting and raping several young women, executed in the
O Bong San district of Pyongyang in 1980
Great! I hope it hurt.


One woman convicted of embezzlement, executed in the Sama Dong district of the capital, Pyongyang in 1988
Again, what were the consequences of her action, and what does an execution from the 80s under Kim Il-sung have to do with the year 2005 under Kim Jong-il?

[kingbee]

Again, what were the consequences of her action, and what does an execution from the 80s under Kim Il-sung have to do with the year 2005 under Kim Jong-il?

i don't necessarily agree with this point, as i'm pretty sure things are worse under jong-il than his dad, but i agree with the lack of evidence.

this is the thing with north korea- any kind of information that gets out that isn't official is praised, but anything the government says is propoganda. every bit of information coming out of the north needs to be scrutinised.

[kingbee]

double post. i'm a retard.

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by Reds+Dec 17 2005, 07:07 PM--> (Reds @ Dec 17 2005, 07:07 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 05:27 AM

[email protected] 16 2005, 11:28 PM
North Korea, China, the former regime in Burma, the former Yugoslavia, the USSR, Cuba, in my opinion all give a bad name to socialism and are not really socialists. Although Cuba is the least hated of all the ones i have and have not mentioned.
Cuba?!! what the hell did Cuba and former Yugoslavia do that was so bad.
Cuba's authoritarianism and the former Yugoslavaia's ethnic cleansing campaign.
ethnic cleansing did not occur until after the fall of socialism [/b]
Wasn't milosevic still in power though?