Human cloning.

[Master Che]

What is your opinion on human cloning? I believe that there should be human cloning, but i also believe we should sorta make brain dead clones whenever we need a organ we can get it from the brain dead clone. Their are numberous reasons why i believe human cloning is helpful.(Which i'll edit in later)
What is your opinion on human cloning?

[JKP]

Why not?

If it can improve our lives we should do it right?

[which doctor]

I don't really think that we should exact replicas of other people walking around. If I had a clone that would just be weird and creepy. I guess having brain dead people for organs would be okay though.

[violencia.Proletariat]

i doubt you need to clone a body for organs, once we develope that technology. they should be able to clone individual organs since they would have to do that in the first place to make up the body.

[Rockfan]

Yeah true just organs. And when you think about it, theres no point in having clones walking round and that. All they'll do is create more people before we figure out the whole food air deal.

[Master Che]

It can even help transexuals by creating a clone of them in the opposite sex, all you need is a brain transplant and your done.

[TheComrade]

Because of my beliefs in Nature I think its wrong to clone any living animal. Its taking it all too far! I guess I fear that cloning will lead to incidents where people try to alter the behavior or humans born ie. make them more docile...do that, combined with unnatural strength, intelligence, skills etc and what have you got? One very powerful - entirely unstoppable person! Playing God is a very bad idea - we should respect the world around us - respect the natural cycle (sex) and not disregard it, abuse it or manipulate it. Its really a feeling I have, pretty inexplainable...It, to me, feels wrong to start tampering with things we don't understand.

[Bannockburn]

Well human cloning will certainly have a huge effect. For one, outside of ethical problems, it will certainly cheapen human life, and create discrimination. Does a clone human have the same rights as a natural human? Since human cloning is the product of human engineering (such as other genetically modified organisms) does it belong to a corporation, or a is property of someone else? Hence, since it corporation X's product, it can make clone Y work all day every day for no wage, hence it simply corporations reproducing and re-accumulating their own wealth?

Would organ cloning create more medical dichotomies? Since I can buy a lever, I live and you die. What are the long run consequences? Will government have the rights to human cloning then clone soldiers? Since homosexuals can't get married in all places, will they have the right? Do they have souls? Will religion accept them? Things we need to think about..

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 12:52 PM
Because of my beliefs in Nature I think its wrong to clone any living animal. Its taking it all too far! I guess I fear that cloning will lead to incidents where people try to alter the behavior or humans born ie. make them more docile...do that, combined with unnatural strength, intelligence, skills etc and what have you got? One very powerful - entirely unstoppable person! Playing God is a very bad idea - we should respect the world around us - respect the natural cycle (sex) and not disregard it, abuse it or manipulate it. Its really a feeling I have, pretty inexplainable...It, to me, feels wrong to start tampering with things we don't understand.
It is just another technology, may as well go without clothes or packaged food.

You don't seem to mind using a computer, ever think that the moniter may be 'tampering' with your eyes?

I believe that everything is natural, we are natural creatures and have naturally developed the ability to use tools. The level of technological sophistication that these tools use is of no consequence since you cannot define a line that when anything passes it it becomes unnatural.
- - -

I am aware of how terribly written that was.

[Simotix]

I have no opinion in where or not human cloning is ethical.

I do, however, find that there is no problem with cloning for better health. If we have the advancement to advance our lives then why not use it? Why not give what is needed if it can be needed (other then the obvious price reasons, but I doubt anything like this will be cheap).

[TheComrade]

Dark Exodus - I believe that it is part of our evolution to realise what we are doing. We have a concious - it is there to stop us from tampering with things we know nothing about.


You don't seem to mind using a computer, ever think that the moniter may be 'tampering' with your eyes?

How is that? Its the manipulaton of natural resources - therefore there is nothing wrong with it! Cloning isn't manipulation but alteration which is what makes it wrong.

[Master Che]

Maybe if we only clone brain dead clones? So just incase anything happens to your current body you have a spar.

[TheComrade]

Ahh....it comes back to it again; the quest for immortality!

Humans aren't like cars (would be easier if women were though :P - I can't drive though...) I just find it wrong - it's like taking the batteries out of those cyber dogs - I always feel bad!!

[Dark Exodus]

Dark Exodus - I believe that it is part of our evolution to realise what we are doing. We have a concious - it is there to stop us from tampering with things we know nothing about.


We know plenty about it, scientists are talking things very slowly as it is at the moment. You are simply repeating common misconceptions.

This 'tampering' could result in a 75% increase in lifespan and the almost total stop of the effects of old age, as well as a way to slow alzhiemers and increase our memory (or our strength, intelligence or agility).
As a point more relevant to the topic, perhaps we could grow organs for donations, since there is often shortages. It would certainly be better than using actual humans.



You don't seem to mind using a computer, ever think that the moniter may be 'tampering' with your eyes?

How is that? Its the manipulaton of natural resources - therefore there is nothing wrong with it! Cloning isn't manipulation but alteration which is what makes it wrong.

Manipulation and Alteration are the same thing. We are simply manipulating human cells for our own benefits, just like cutting down a tree and making a table.

[Hasta la Victoria siempre]

human cloning??
i really dont think its a good idea
we can grow organs...um at least we're working on it. stem cell research and such. we dont need to clone humans, that is just going to end really really badly.
cause....i mean...can we make brain dead clones?? i dont think we can...maybe i'm wrong...but like i said, they are working on just cloning the organs...that way we wouldnt have to deal with the whole having a living being and such...because...if we cloned people i'd turn into this hhhuuugggee thing with like...people looking like everyone else because next thing ya know parents will be able to pick what they're kid looks like and then everyone will look like everyone else and then its....ahhh sci-fi movie!

alex

[TheComrade]

No, Dark Exodus. To cut down a tree and make it into a table is manipulaton - you are not adding anything to it. But in cloning - or selective cloning as you are talking about - involves removing things and adding things we want/don't want. To do that with non living things - I believe is acceptable - but to do it with a human life is not only dangerous but horrendously immoral.

Actually, scientists don't know what they are doing. They have no idea how genes work - we used to think that mapping the human genome would solve everything but people have revently discovered that genes are like switches - they can be turned on and off depending on the conditions in which the cells are created and develop. We have no idea.

[drain.you]

Hmm...

I think we should use this kind of technology only for growing organs, tissues,etc to aid people. I don't think we should use this to extend life unnaturely but to save people from dying prematurely or such.
But definately no to making living clones that walk amongst us. Theres little point and would cause many problems. Would we treat them equally as us? Should we? I don't think we need to get into that. Messy buisness.


Humans aren't like cars (would be easier if women were though - I can't drive though...)
Whats that supposed to mean?

[TheComrade]

drain.you - sorry, bad joke. : :unsure:

[Janus]

I don't see the reason for cloning an actual human being but I do believe in stem cell research. Even if you were against stem cell research now, would you refuse a copied organ if one of your natural ones shut down or was damaged. I bet only the most stubborn would be able to refuse. But this technique should be reserved so that it doesn't become a fad or anything like that. It is within our nature to perfect ourselves and there really isn't much we can do to stop that innate drive.

[Atlas Swallowed]

Great idea, I have been told to go f**k myself so often, maybe I will get the opporuunity. I bet I am a great lay.

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 09:54 PM
No, Dark Exodus. To cut down a tree and make it into a table is manipulaton - you are not adding anything to it. But in cloning - or selective cloning as you are talking about - involves removing things and adding things we want/don't want. To do that with non living things - I believe is acceptable - but to do it with a human life is not only dangerous but horrendously immoral.

Erm, trees are alive.

Perhaps you should tell how immoral it is to all those who need new organs but cannot get them because of huge waiting lists?

I'm sure a healthy pair of lungs is a living creature too :rolleyes:


Actually, scientists don't know what they are doing. They have no idea how genes work - we used to think that mapping the human genome would solve everything but people have revently discovered that genes are like switches - they can be turned on and off depending on the conditions in which the cells are created and develop. We have no idea.

Source please? Maybe a book or a web page? Because it seems that you have just supported my point by saying we are finding out more on this field.

- - -

What is so sacred about the human body and its genes? Cloning has been proved safe and successfull, and gene therapy is coming along in leaps and bounds.

But then, what is the large potential of human enhancement present in these sciences against the force of your unbacked morals?

[Master Che]

Hmm...

I think we should use this kind of technology only for growing organs, tissues,etc to aid people. I don't think we should use this to extend life unnaturely but to save people from dying prematurely or such.
But definately no to making living clones that walk amongst us. Theres little point and would cause many problems. Would we treat them equally as us? Should we? I don't think we need to get into that. Messy buisness.
Yeah thats how human cloning should be like.






Great idea, I have been told to go f**k myself so often, maybe I will get the opporuunity. I bet I am a great lay.
LOL!

[Arca]

I don't wish to die, so I'm all in favour in doing what it takes to increase lifespan be it through cloning or growing organs.

Superhumans with super strength and super intelligence? Someone has been watching too many movies methinks...


Originally posted by Atlas
Great idea, I have been told to go f**k myself so often, maybe I will get the opporuunity. I bet I am a great lay.
Haha! Would be... interesting?... to find out

[Master Che]

Only if my clone is of the opposite sex.

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 01:25 AM
Superhumans with super strength and super intelligence? Someone has been watching too many movies methinks...
Well there are already superhuman mice (or supermicey mice?) So I don't quite see why this deserves such a response. The concept of the television must have seemed quite fanciful to those it was first introduced to as well.

[drain.you]

haha superhuman mice :P

Yeah its true that we've messed around with other creatures and genetics but I don't think we should start messing around with humans. People are people, I was born how I am, i've learned to accept that and don't want to change. people should just be born naturally, making superintelligent people is just outragous.

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 07:17 AM
haha superhuman mice :P

Yeah its true that we've messed around with other creatures and genetics but I don't think we should start messing around with humans. People are people, I was born how I am, i've learned to accept that and don't want to change. people should just be born naturally, making superintelligent people is just outragous.
Then so is wearing glasses or clothes. Why are these things acceptable? Why are they more natural?

This enhancement would be personal choice by a person of reasonable age, not government or parents.

[drain.you]

I don't really like the ideas of make-up, piercings and plastic surgery either but theres little I can do about that.
Clothes are because some people find nudity 'offensive'.
Glasses are to help someone see. Sure, if you can't see and we can give them new eyes but not making people superintelligent or strong, there is no need for this, there is however need to give new organs to those who have been involved in accidents,etc.

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 11:23 AM
Glasses are to help someone see.
Why is wearing glasses to help you see more natural than taking a pill and having better memory for a week? Glasses are a tool that helps the long or shortsighted see better, gene therapy is tool that is similar except it can also be used on healthy people (some medical conditions may be fought with gene therapy as well).


but not making people superintelligent or strong, there is no need for this

Their is no 'need' for differently coloured cars, their is no 'need' for televisions. Just because we don't need it does not mean it would not be hugely useful or just nice to have. Are you honestly saying you cannot see a use for a way to increase your own intelligence or lifespan?

Also, it depends on how you define 'super'. Is a 50% increase superintelligence?

- - -

Cosmetic changes are also possible (they would likely kill the hair and tanning industries, if there is such as thing as the 'tanning industry'), again temporary or permanent.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

people should just be born naturally, making superintelligent people is just outragous.

Why should people be born naturally? And furthermore, why is the creation of superintelligent people outrageous?

[Xvall]

And furthermore, why is the creation of superintelligent people outrageous?

Jealousy, on my part.

[TheComrade]

I think we are diverging away from the actual topic.

I guess it is my beliefs about Nature - that there is a life cycle, force if you will. I humble - we are nothing compared to life around us, nature around us. We are nothing in comparison to water, plants, stars and the solar system. We have no right to consider ourselves so great that we believe in altering our own evolution. I can't really express it well - I feel it to be wrong.

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 07:46 PM
I think we are diverging away from the actual topic.

They are quite similar issues I think.


I guess it is my beliefs about Nature - that there is a life cycle, force if you will. I humble - we are nothing compared to life around us, nature around us. We are nothing in comparison to water, plants, stars and the solar system. We have no right to consider ourselves so great that we believe in altering our own evolution. I can't really express it well - I feel it to be wrong.

There is nothing special about the things around us. We are part of nature too, just as a chimp uses a stick to pick out termites we may clone organs or enhance ourselves.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I guess it is my beliefs about Nature - that there is a life cycle, force if you will. I humble - we are nothing compared to life around us, nature around us. We are nothing in comparison to water, plants, stars and the solar system. We have no right to consider ourselves so great that we believe in altering our own evolution. I can't really express it well - I feel it to be wrong.

Have you tried approaching the issue from a rational rather than emotional angle? "it feels wrong" is not an argument.

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 07:57 PM
Only if my clone is of the opposite sex.
Best post in this thread. Thats the only way I'd agree to having a clone :lol:

Anyway though it would be kinda scary to see one of your friends one place and 5 seconds later see them in another place. It would also make relationships difficult in a sense as well. I think you get why. I personally dont mind having a dead clone of me for extra organs. Hey seeing as I drink quite a bit, maybe a few years down the road I'd need a new liver and what better then to get one from a clone of myself.

Also another problem with living clones is that the wrong people could be cloned. God forbid another Rumsfeld or Bush running around. We have one and thats enough.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Also another problem with living clones is that the wrong people could be cloned. God forbid another Rumsfeld or Bush running around. We have one and thats enough.

Aargh! This betrays a hideous ignorance of both cloning technology and environmental influences. Unless you seriously believe that all our thoughts, opinions and acts are genetically derived (Which they aren't) you really ought to factor that in.

A clone of Bush might have some physical similarities but would be a much different person mentally, since you cannot raise him in the exact same conditions as the original.

[Xvall]

Also another problem with living clones is that the wrong people could be cloned. God forbid another Rumsfeld or Bush running around. We have one and thats enough.

As NoXion stated, complete nonsense.

[TheComrade]

Sorry for playing the (bad) emotional card.

I would like to stress the argument about diversity and how cloning destroys diversity. It is natural for humans to be diverse - it brings about resistance and saves humans from 1 disease killing everyone. For example AIDS resistance has been linked to a variation in a gene CCR5. This gene is also believed to have allowed people to survive the Black Death. If we had all been cloned and that misunderstood gene was removed - we would all be dead/dying. Don't say that 'we understand things better now' because we do not! We have no idea, really, about gentics - the basic maths of it all yes, but we don't fully understand inheritence for example... If you think we do - explain it to me! (I mean the real reasons why say....ducks can swim when they are born - they are never taught)

Without population heterogeneity exceptional individuals, such as Albert Einstein and Leonardo da Vinci, could not come about.

On a political level - tyrannical governments could easily harness the power of cloning - you make workers, soliders, firefighters - you farm them - why bother letting people choose their lives when its more effectient to simply grow people for specific jobs?

Do we know how a clone would react to seeing himself?


[My 100th post!]

[TheComrade]

(sorry, double post)

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Without population heterogeneity exceptional individuals, such as Albert Einstein and Leonardo da Vinci, could not come about.

I don't think anyone here is proposing reproduction solely by cloning, which is a bad idea precisely for the reasons you listed above.

But I suppose it might be done for cultural/ideological reasons.


On a political level - tyrannical governments could easily harness the power of cloning - you make workers, soliders, firefighters - you farm them - why bother letting people choose their lives when its more effectient to simply grow people for specific jobs?

Considering that clones still need to grow just as fast as normal human beings I doubt this will happen.


Do we know how a clone would react to seeing himself?

It would depend on how they were raised to view clones.
I think there is a significant bias against cloning thanks to the ages-old "evil twin" storytelling device.

[TheComrade]

If you can alter the personality of someone through cloning (which some scientists believe is possible) why can't you accelerate their growth? A human could be fully developed after 6 months....and 6 months later, would be an old person....horrific thought and yet that is the implication of your support.

[Master Che]

Is it possible to develope a Adult human clone? Or does it need to grow?

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 11:08 AM

I would like to stress the argument about diversity and how cloning destroys diversity. It is natural for humans to be diverse - it brings about resistance and saves humans from 1 disease killing everyone.


Without population heterogeneity exceptional individuals, such as Albert Einstein and Leonardo da Vinci, could not come about.

Once we start cloning everyone will suddenly stop having sex for no readily apparent reason?



For example AIDS resistance has been linked to a variation in a gene CCR5. This gene is also believed to have allowed people to survive the Black Death. If we had all been cloned and that misunderstood gene was removed - we would all be dead/dying.

And with cloning and the aformentioned enhancements everyone could feel the benefits of this gene. If everyone thought like you we would not know that this gene existed at all.


Don't say that 'we understand things better now' because we do not! We have no idea, really, about gentics - the basic maths of it all yes, but we don't fully understand inheritence for example... If you think we do - explain it to me! (I mean the real reasons why say....ducks can swim when they are born - they are never taught)

We don't know everything about just about everything. We aren't going to learn by not doing anything now are we? I never said we should rush out to clone as many supermen as possible.


On a political level - tyrannical governments could easily harness the power of cloning - you make workers, soliders, firefighters - you farm them - why bother letting people choose their lives when its more effectient to simply grow people for specific jobs?

If this government will stoop that low then whats to stop them simply forcing people to do it anyway? Cloning would just make the load easier on the clones.
From a political standpoint leftism is bad because a dictator could use its imagery as propoganda to passify people, but we already know that.


If you can alter the personality of someone through cloning (which some scientists believe is possible) why can't you accelerate their growth? A human could be fully developed after 6 months....and 6 months later, would be an old person....horrific thought and yet that is the implication of your support.

No-one said anything about growth acceleration. Except you.

[TheComrade]

Once we start cloning everyone will suddenly stop having sex for no readily apparent reason?

And why should an over powered government allow humans to indulge in something they have no control over? Governments could order that all people are sterailised at birth. Imagine 'The Party' (1984) with powers over cloning...


And with cloning and the aformentioned enhancements everyone could feel the benefits of this gene. If everyone thought like you we would not know that this gene existed at all.

I think you misunderstand me. You clearly think I am against all forms of medical progression, incorrect - I believe unnatural cloning is a step too far.



We don't know everything about just about everything. We aren't going to learn by not doing anything now are we? I never said we should rush out to clone as many supermen as possible.

No you didn't - but just because you didn't doesn't mean other wont do it. Einstien didn't say nuclear physics would lead to the nuke - but it did.



No-one said anything about growth acceleration. Except you.

Again - you must understand that just because you didn't say it - doesn't mean it won't be done. Try and understand that wider picture - the actual consequences of permitting cloning rather than just what you wish it to be.

[Dark Exodus]

And why should an over powered government allow humans to indulge in something they have no control over? Governments could order that all people are sterailised at birth. Imagine 'The Party' (1984) with powers over cloning...

Whats to stop them simply selectively breeding? If they have such power. This place would be attacked and these practises stopped. The modern world may be a place of extreme exploitation but it is also full of trigger happy world leaders.
Besides this, you are imagining an extremely unlikely situation and using it as an excuse against something that could work great benefits on humanity.


I think you misunderstand me. You clearly think I am against all forms of medical progression, incorrect - I believe unnatural cloning is a step too far.

It is natural. Please tell me why it isn't.


No you didn't - but just because you didn't doesn't mean other wont do it. Einstien didn't say nuclear physics would lead to the nuke - but it did.

Explain how cloning you can create 'super' soldiers. You may be able to get some good performance from the individual, but everyone has flaws, these would be replicated across all of the clones.
This is assuming a conventional, non-nuclear war.


Again - you must understand that just because you didn't say it - doesn't mean it won't be done. Try and understand that wider picture - the actual consequences of permitting cloning rather than just what you wish it to be.

The 'wider consequences' being an extremely unlikely situation with a 1984 style government. Take your own advice, stop looking at things as you wish them to be.
You are saying cloning is bad because an evil government will for some reason sterilise people at birth, clone a super army and then take on the characteristics of the party in 1984?


- - -

If you are to continue with such an argument then you will have to explain how such a government will acheive this. Clones will take on the talents of the original, it does not mean that will have all of their learned skills. What is to stop other governments simply forming an alliance and destroying them?
I'm not even sure if such a thing as growth enhancement exists.

[TheComrade]

Dark Exodus - I am simply trying to look at the worst-case scenario and I think we are both falling foul by imagining only what we would like to see. Perhaps I should consider more of your positive points about cloning - as you should consider more of my apocalypse points.

I do, however, think it is important to consider both ends of the spectrum - good and bad. I have considered 'eternal life' but I find the thought of it repulsive - but you should consider my end of world scenario instead of dismissing it in such a mocking (humorously put) tone.

[Delirium]

I think that we need to take a step back here towards reallity

Human cloning is not even yet a viable procedure nor really is theruraputic cloning. True that there are obvious good an bad aspects to cloning. As it is it is a horrible expensive and inneficient way to produce human beings. This may get better but i cannot invision a scenario in which it would be more productive that the natural method.

Tampering with genetics itself has it's dangers but we cannot just fail to explore the obvious medical potential it holds. As long as it is done in a responsible way that is subject to peer review i have no problem with the manipulation of the genome.

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 04:46 PM
Dark Exodus - I am simply trying to look at the worst-case scenario and I think we are both falling foul by imagining only what we would like to see. Perhaps I should consider more of your positive points about cloning - as you should consider more of my apocalypse points.

I do, however, think it is important to consider both ends of the spectrum - good and bad. I have considered 'eternal life' but I find the thought of it repulsive - but you should consider my end of world scenario instead of dismissing it in such a mocking (humorously put) tone.
I do not see these as two extremes, only one extreme. Though it is difficult to tell since research is still relatively early on. I don't think even the most ambitious scientist would clone for power though, I do not think it would work, you cannot automate it, you would need huge teams of scientists, massive amounts of expensive equipment etc.

[Master Che]

One question when will we have the ability to clone a full adult human body?

[Vallegrande]

The only people who will benefit from human cloning are rich people who can afford it. All of the others (most of us) dont have much to gain from this. Same with GMO. It's all for the people with pockets of cash. I'd rather all of us mutate naturally rather than buying our happiness.

[Master Che]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 05:24 AM
The only people who will benefit from human cloning are rich people who can afford it. All of the others (most of us) dont have much to gain from this. Same with GMO. It's all for the people with pockets of cash. I'd rather all of us mutate naturally rather than buying our happiness.
Unless we live under socialism.

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 05:24 AM
The only people who will benefit from human cloning are rich people who can afford it. All of the others (most of us) dont have much to gain from this. Same with GMO. It's all for the people with pockets of cash. I'd rather all of us mutate naturally rather than buying our happiness.
Assuming a Capitalist system is what we are describing then this is true, for a limited period of time. Eventually it will filter down into the other classes, rich people may have better clones/enhancements but the concept of diminishing returns applies to this, so they could be paying much more for very little benefit. Much like having a sports car.

Also remember that these will be likely be pretty popular once people get over stigmas, and that once properly researched GMO technology will be relatively cheap.