Revolution

[Fidel Follower]

Okay say Britrain became Communist! I know its hard to imagine, but try!
So the revolution goes smoothly, but the now communist goverment has now found some anti-revolutionist!
OMG! So what happens now? Are they shot like in Cuba?.....
I want all diffrent opinons......so what would you do? <_<

[CCJ]

I&#39;d leave them alone. It&#39;s not like they could do anything anyway. In fact, if the system were worth fighting for, there wouldn&#39;t be many people who&#39;d want to overthrow it anyway.

And please, PLEASE stop murdering my language.

[Fidel Follower]

And please, PLEASE stop murdering my language. What the fuck?.....I dont think so... Anyway this is about my question, not about spelling but you dont have much of a life so i forgive you....and i will always make mistakes so....deal with it&#33;
:hammer:

[CCJ]

I don&#39;t have much of a life? Actually I do have a life, and guess what, I spend most of it on activism.

[Comrade-Z]

I&#39;d leave them alone and grant them freedom of speech and propaganda, just like everyone else. But if they take violent action against revolutionaries, obviously the working class will need to defend the revolution, and the counter-revolutionaries will be arrested and confined in a humane manner until they are no longer a threat to the revolution. Unless the working class wants to follow the programme of these counter-revolutionaries, in which case these counter-revolutionaries will be elected into the workers&#39; councils and implement their programme of destroying the very same workers&#39; councils and re-instating wage-slavery. That would be the point at which the working class kicks these counter-revolutionaries out of the workers&#39; councils. If the counter-revolutionaries refuse to step down, then they will be forcibly removed with the armed democratic workers&#39; militias, obviously.

[Rockfan]

You could exile then like Cuba did but They would just cause a shitload of problems and have the U.S.A. on there side. If you kill them your gonna be portraied as evil communist dictators and you&#39;ll end up being compared to the U.S.S.R. Yeah just leave them, if a revolution failed you&#39;ed be trailed for crimes against the state, just do the same to them when the fight back and lose (hopefully) but for crimes against the peoples revolution or sometime.

[Le People]

Just let them speak their peace, but if they take up arms, the heavy hand of the state should come down. It&#39;s chacter should be proletarian, not KGB soviet style. I.e, it should be with the government requesting the worker&#39;s militas to squash the rebellions, which would happen. For that matter, the militas ought to be in charge of policing the criminals within the proletarian too.

[which doctor]

They would be re-educated like all criminals would be.

[Hiero]

What form do this counter revolutionaries take?

[TheComrade]

&#39;Re-educated&#39; huh? You sound a little too much like Brian and The Party&#33; I say let them be&#33; If they being to gain power face them off in a series of solid politcal debates - show them for what they are - take apart their arguments - use reason and logic to prove that they are dillusioned, power hungry cowards. Physical violence is never the answer...agressive debate works much better&#33;

[Fidel Follower]

They would be fascist, people who are very to the right, and uper class people who dont want to work for the state.
So now try to imagine the groups of fascist and non belivers and so taking armed action against the new state.....
What would happen to them? :hammer:

[Black Dagger]

So now try to imagine the groups of fascist and non belivers and so taking armed action against the new state.....
What would happen to them?

Well i&#39;m a communist, so i don&#39;t support the idea of erecting a &#39;new state&#39; that we all have to &#39;work for&#39;- but in a post-capitalist society any armed resistance to the revolution, i.e. counter-revolutionaries would be met with the armed resistance of the workers- a revolution should be defended by any means necessary against reactionaries.

[Fidel Follower]

Yes, i think i agree. If anti-revolutionaries take up arrms then it sould be the duty of the state and the people to defend Communism&#33;

And can any one enlighten me about who Che Guevara killed after the revolution in Cuba? And how many he killed? If any....:hammer:

[Led Zeppelin]

Work camps are a good solution.

But I support a "red terror" after the revolution, as Lenin said:

"We need the real, nation-wide terror which reinvigorates the country and through which the Great French Revolution achieved glory." Lenin

[our_mutual_friend]

There is always going to be an opposition and an opposite to whatever is instigated - that is the way the world appears to work.
But how could people support or even appreciate a revolution when they do not actually believe in it and are forced into being a part of it??
And afterwards if the force of being part of it is so great that violence is a permanent aftershock then what good would it have done the world?

[our_mutual_friend]

I&#39;m just replying to myself here - but if, literally a mob of people react violently to what you have done and attempt to murder you, your family etc then obviously you would have to take steps to neutralise this threat to your life, I think anyone else would probably do the same thing in that situation.
But if you OPPRESS people into submission then there would be serious consequences: there would be some kind of revolt and knowing that some people in the world are oppressed you might think that other people would then attempt to help them - hence some kind of massive civil war.

[vladimirm]

freedom is freedom, are we tryingot create a socailist paradise ?? you dont do that by going around killing everybody adn sending them in exile, just becuase they dont share our view of the world doesnt neccersarily mean we shuould get rid of them

[Fidel Follower]

Yes fredom is fredom&#33; But who said we have to go around killing everybody? :hammer:

[chilcru]

If the counter-revolutionaries are remnants of the bourgeoisie or coming from bourgeolis backgrounds, we deal with them as contradiction between the capitalists and workers. In which case, we should separate the hard core from mere followers and deal with the hard core accordingly; that is, we should launch a vigorous, intense ideological and political struggle with them. If they should take up arms, they shall suffer the revolutionary monopoly of force of the proletarian state and be reeducated in labor camps (to make them productive as well).

If the counter-revolutionaries are workers infected with bourgeois ideas and conduct, we deal with them as contradiction between the people and deal with them ideologically.

[Fidel Follower]

And what happpens to the anti-revolutionaries who refuse to work in the labour camps? And surly anti-revolutionaries when found taking part in armed resistance, sould be shot?

And can some on tell me what happend to the anti-revolutionaries in cuba, and did Che Guevara kill many of them? :unsure:

[TheComrade]

Originally posted by Marxism&#045;[email protected] 20 2005, 11:48 AM
Work camps are a good solution.

But I support a "red terror" after the revolution Lenin

Do you not understand that violence, execution, torture, abuse of human rights is what DRIVES people to fight a regime? IF there was a Communist regime that involved such inhumane acts I WOULD FIGHT IT&#33; Despite the fact that I am very left, socialist I would NOT accept such authoritatian acts&#33; When you push someone, they do not give it, they fight back harder - you must then push even harder and it leads to a vicious circle...dictatorship, civil war even world war when other countries become involved. Labour camps are INHUMANE - they only make people martyrs&#33; This is pure ignorance and no one will allow such a regime to exsist - at least I won&#39;t - I will DIE fighting it&#33;

Who else agrees with me?&#33;

[ScottishSocialist13]

Originally posted by TheComrade+Nov 21 2005, 09:16 PM--> (TheComrade @ Nov 21 2005, 09:16 PM)
Marxism&#045;[email protected] 20 2005, 11:48 AM
Work camps are a good solution.

But I support a "red terror" after the revolution Lenin

Do you not understand that violence, execution, torture, abuse of human rights is what DRIVES people to fight a regime? IF there was a Communist regime that involved such inhumane acts I WOULD FIGHT IT&#33; Despite the fact that I am very left, socialist I would NOT accept such authoritatian acts&#33; When you push someone, they do not give it, they fight back harder - you must then push even harder and it leads to a vicious circle...dictatorship, civil war even world war when other countries become involved. Labour camps are INHUMANE - they only make people martyrs&#33; This is pure ignorance and no one will allow such a regime to exsist - at least I won&#39;t - I will DIE fighting it&#33;

Who else agrees with me?&#33; [/b]
here, here&#33; :rolleyes:

Work camps are not the solution.

[TheComrade]

Thank you ScottishSocialist13&#33;

Law and reason is the solution&#33; We, as Communists, Socialists and Anarchists should not bow to the torture, murder, rape and other horific methods of &#39;order&#39; that are so willfully used by both the extreme left and right&#33; (authoritarians) If someone disagrees with the ways then we show them up in a debate - afterall the left is the most logical as well as most humane political allegience. To supress people, to kill people, because they do not believe in the things we believe solves nothing - it simply drives it underground - where it can fester unseen&#33;

[ScottishSocialist13]

what would happen to someone who commited a serious crime, like treason, rape or murder?

[Lamanov]

"Red terror", huh?

Hmmm.... I would not support the whole Tcheka thing to repeat. Frankly, I doubt that we would have a Leninist-type revolution anyway - such where we would have a central authority which can conduct such an operation. Infact, I&#39;m sure.


Originally posted by TheComrade
Who else agrees with me?&#33;

I agree with you 100%.

Terror is not something characteristical to the proletarian revolution. It&#39;s too... Jacobinist? Bolshevist? Hell yeah. We will not resort to that&#33; I beleve that there is simply no need for it.

But I wouldn&#39;t be supperised if the workers&#39; councils would make a vote to execute few people themselves. I think that here, in Bosnia, where I live, and in Croatia and Serbia & Montenegro, workers themselves would probably conduct such an operation (probably democratically voted on) where all former criminals and crime-terrorists would be executed. I could be even sure of it&#33;

Probably in England, where law overpowers crime, we would not see such a thing.
But in less fortunate areas, "Red terror" might be a spontaneous peoples&#39; action.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 02:54 AM
If the counter-revolutionaries are remnants of the bourgeoisie or coming from bourgeolis backgrounds, we deal with them as contradiction between the capitalists and workers. In which case, we should separate the hard core from mere followers and deal with the hard core accordingly; that is, we should launch a vigorous, intense ideological and political struggle with them. If they should take up arms, they shall suffer the revolutionary monopoly of force of the proletarian state and be reeducated in labor camps (to make them productive as well).

If the counter-revolutionaries are workers infected with bourgeois ideas and conduct, we deal with them as contradiction between the people and deal with them ideologically.
That is a really good post comrade and i totally agree. We need to continue a Marxist analysis in the revolutionary society. The majority of posts in this thread have not taking the Marxists analysis, they ignore the battle against the proletariat and the counter revolutionaries as the class strugle.

I would like to add to your post that we need to remove the counter revolutionaries from all positions of power, while we procede with the ideological

This the case of counter revolutionaries and revisionist in power in Universities, Schools, in workplace governing bodies and even in the Party.

In every revolution, after the proleteriat have taking power in the economic base it has been proven that revisionist and counter revolutionaries try to take power in every aspect of soceity. The battle in the superstructure continues throughout socialism.


And can some on tell me what happend to the anti-revolutionaries in cuba, and did Che Guevara kill many of them?

Apparently Che found it neccasary to execute over 500 counter revolutionaries at some prison.


Do you not understand that violence, execution, torture, abuse of human rights is what DRIVES people to fight a regime?

We, as Communists, Socialists and Anarchists should not bow to the torture, murder, rape and other horific methods of &#39;order&#39; that are so willfully used by both the extreme left and right&#33;

I don&#39;t think people were talking about a inhumane rape and torture. Violence is just a tool. If it comes neccasary to use that tool to save the proleterait state, then it must be used.


what would happen to someone who commited a serious crime, like treason, rape or murder?

They are different, they have no political and economic ambitions.


Hmmm.... I would not support the whole Tcheka thing to repeat. Frankly, I doubt that we would have a Leninist-type revolution anyway - such where we would have a central authority which can conduct such an operation. Infact, I&#39;m sure.

Why are you sure?

[Led Zeppelin]

Do you not understand that violence, execution, torture, abuse of human rights is what DRIVES people to fight a regime? IF there was a Communist regime that involved such inhumane acts I WOULD FIGHT IT&#33; Despite the fact that I am very left, socialist I would NOT accept such authoritatian acts&#33; When you push someone, they do not give it, they fight back harder - you must then push even harder and it leads to a vicious circle...dictatorship, civil war even world war when other countries become involved. Labour camps are INHUMANE - they only make people martyrs&#33; This is pure ignorance and no one will allow such a regime to exsist - at least I won&#39;t - I will DIE fighting it&#33;

Teenage utopians won&#39;t amount to much, so I doubt you&#39;ll be doing anything.

As for the "red terror", as redstar once said (I forgot where) after a Capitalist revolution a "white terror" happens, Communists and leftists are arrested and killed.

This is not a question of "should a red terror happen", it will happen, that&#39;s a historical reality, live with it.

[tatu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 06:01 PM
And please, PLEASE stop murdering my language.
Bully. What was the point in saying that?

In regards to Fidel Follower&#39;s question, I&#39;d say that they&#39;d be arrested, questioned and tried. We would deal with the situation with whatever ways necessary to alleviate counter-revolutionary activities. But then again I suppose that most of the counter-revolutionaries would either be killed in the civil war or flee to other parts of the world.

[FreePalestine-SmashIsrael]

it depends what you mean by anti-revolutionist. If if its just some dude who is greedy and likes capitalism and is no threat, let him dwindle in his ignorance, if its actually people trying to go back to capitalism, one bullet is all it takes

[Fidel Follower]

Yes tatu, i agree with you on both points&#33; Why he had to say that i have no idea?

And Yes most would be killed in the actual revolution, i would think but the anti-revolutionaries would be tried and sent to prison. [B]But[B] for how olng for?

And when in prison would they be taught about how the state is better to every one and the benifits and so on....? :hammer:

[enigma2517]

it depends what you mean by anti-revolutionist. If if its just some dude who is greedy and likes capitalism and is no threat, let him dwindle in his ignorance, if its actually people trying to go back to capitalism, one bullet is all it takes

My thoughts exactly pretty much. Basically we have to treat these people like second class citizens. If they actually take steps to advocating the return of capitalism, it would be up to workers&#39; militias to suppress them. Likewise, capitalists won&#39;t have any sort of "free speech". That is, the ability to own any kind of broadcast/print media or partcipate in most public forums. Taking away their right to vote is pretty much a given too.


In every revolution, after the proleteriat have taking power in the economic base it has been proven that revisionist and counter revolutionaries try to take power in every aspect of soceity. The battle in the superstructure continues throughout socialism.

Perhaps the superstructure is more trouble than its worth? Decentralization would be quite the strong point here, and ultimately, if the proletariat (not the Party) really does have power over the economic base then metaphorical edicts issues by kangeroo courts and legislatures of the State would be irrelevant. Its only when you have a professional police force and permanent hierarchies that things get iffy.

Who could recognize counter revolutionaries better than their own co-workers?

[Hiero]

Originally posted by FreePalestine&#045;[email protected] 23 2005, 07:14 AM
it depends what you mean by anti-revolutionist. If if its just some dude who is greedy and likes capitalism and is no threat, let him dwindle in his ignorance, if its actually people trying to go back to capitalism, one bullet is all it takes
That&#39;s not really a Marxist analysis, it assumes that counter revolution is a problem of the individual. So you assume that taking out these individuals is the solution. This is the road Stalin took, as they didn&#39;t have a developed theory of revisionism, counter revolution.

So a theory must be developed about the superstructure to stop thoose counter revolutionaries and revisionist who wish to achive the same thing and turn back the revolution.


Perhaps the superstructure is more trouble than its worth?

Superstructure is the society, culture, law and politics. The superstructure is shaped and subordinate by the economic base. Though the problem is in revolution the superstructure doesn&#39;t change as quickly as the economic base does. So while you may have social property, ideas connect with private property still exist.

[Lamanov]

Originally posted by Hiero
Why are you sure?

Because in the course of a full proletarian revolution there will be no party to fill in the "power vacuum" next to the mass movement itself, so the police measures will be revoked for good. Police measures which - at the end - are turned against the revolutionaries themselves - as we&#39;ve seen many times before.

Utopia is a belief by which we will have a leninist-type revolution again.

But of course, even bigger utopia is a hope that there will be no "Red Terror" of the working class from the very bottom through the whole prole movement.

It&#39;s very probable - as I&#39;ve said - that mass movement itself will resort to violence which will be turned against certain individuals - besides, of course, the institutions and the system itself. But violence, again, does not mean political terror characteristical to the authoritarians. Enemies of the proletariat and enemies of certain parties are not always the same people. That too I&#39;m sure of.

[TheComrade]

Teenage utopians won&#39;t amount to much, so I doubt you&#39;ll be doing anything.

Great&#33; Thank you - patronising bastard&#33;



As for the "red terror", as redstar once said (I forgot where) after a Capitalist revolution a "white terror" happens, Communists and leftists are arrested and killed.

That makes no sense - your implying that because Capitalists do something - Communists must do the same thing back? You are better the right wing neo-cons which so willfully abuse other humans.



This is not a question of "should a red terror happen", it will happen, that&#39;s a historical reality, live with it.

So you don&#39;t believe that you can change it? Its a historical reality that empires fall - a communist regime will, according to your version of &#39;reality&#39; always be doomed to fail....I can&#39;t understand how to continue to live if you think like that&#33;

[Led Zeppelin]

That makes no sense - your implying that because Capitalists do something - Communists must do the same thing back?

No, I am implying that historically when Communists "took over" they did the same as the Capitalists did when they "took over", there is no reason to believe that this won&#39;t happen again in the future.


You are better the right wing neo-cons which so willfully abuse other humans.


Yes, I am a "right-wing neo con" because I say that after Communists take over "right-wing neo cons" will be the first to suffer.

Great logic you have there buddy.


So you don&#39;t believe that you can change it?

No, when something has happened every time before in history and there is no reason to believe that it will change, you usually come to the conclusion that you can&#39;t change it, you might try to change it, but you can&#39;t.

And before you bring up the "Capitalism has existed until now so you believe that we can&#39;t change that?" question, I do believe that Capitalism can be changed because there is reason to believe that it will.


Its a historical reality that empires fall - a communist regime will, according to your version of &#39;reality&#39; always be doomed to fail

What on earth are you talking about?

It seems to me that I&#39;m talking to a person who doesn&#39;t know anything about Communism, big surprise there.

Communism is a stateless society, there is no such thing as a "Communist empire" or "Communist regime", so it cannot be "doomed to fail".

Oh and btw, Socialist states cannot be empires since they don&#39;t exploit foreign nations.

[Hiero]

And when in prison would they be taught about how the state is better to every one and the benifits and so on....?

That&#39;s just foolish propoganda. You would teach people the Marxism-Leninism. That way they learn about the struggle and do not fall into despair when struggle arises and there is set backs. This way they are prepared to fight and build on errors rather then expect everything from the State.

We can&#39;t try and trick people or fall short of correcting ideology.

[Fidel Follower]

Ha Ha Ha Ha Marxism-Leninism&#33; :lol: Ohh you&#39;re funny&#33;

Basically what your saying is "Trying is the first step towards failure&#33;" Ha Ha Ha you really are funny&#33; TheComrade has a great point&#33; :hammer: