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poster_child
17th November 2005, 06:21
A study recently done indicates that immigrants coming over from less industrialized nations to highly industrialized nations (ie: the US) are at least six times more likely to have some sort of mental illness than an immigrant from an industrialized nation. This mental illness can be anything from severe depression to schitzophrenia, to bipolar disorder.
I believe this is due to capitalism. Once they get here, they are subjected to intense advertizing that they are not used to. They are taught to want more and more material goods than ever before, and when this is not possible, depression hits.
Any thoughts?

FleasTheLemur
17th November 2005, 06:26
It's a possiblity we cannot cast aside. The lowest ethnic group for depression in the United States is--get this--the Amish. A close nit, non consumerist society build on kindness and hard work? Hmm....

C_Rasmussen
17th November 2005, 06:42
God, even people who aren't immigrants are prone to depression due to this conservative, capitalistic shithole we're living in.

BuyOurEverything
17th November 2005, 09:33
I believe it was Emile Durkheim who did studies on that. As division of labour increases, suicide rates go up. Sort of what Marx was talking about with the alienation of the proletariat. It also has to do with our individualist culture. As communities break down, people feel isolated and rates of depression go up.

I also remember someone a while back suggesting that food played a major role.

drain.you
17th November 2005, 19:24
Maybe I'm just ignorant but I didn't know Emile Durkheim did anything outside of the women's movement. could you point me in direction of any of her writing?

And yeah, I would agree that capitalism causes depression. I don't think capitalism is a natural way for people to live, it fucks people up, brainwashes them and exploits them. People have to be a slave to the wage and of course this will negatively affect them. Capitalism sucks :P

Elect Marx
17th November 2005, 21:12
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 02:29 PM
And yeah, I would agree that capitalism causes depression. I don't think capitalism is a natural way for people to live, it fucks people up, brainwashes them and exploits them. People have to be a slave to the wage and of course this will negatively affect them. Capitalism sucks :P
Indeed; I would like to see actual statistics. Certainly the alienation of capital is antithetical to social creatures and the predatory socialization is a constant thorn in our sides. Being used, unappreciated, cast aside and forced into a life you don't want on a daily basis has a definite connection to depression.

poster_child
17th November 2005, 21:41
I don't think capitalism is a natural way for people to live, it fucks people up, brainwashes them and exploits them.

I agree. It's funny though, that's what the cappies say about communism! Communal living is the way "primitive" humans lived, and it worked perfectly. Then we started drawing lines and saying you can cross here. Then we started the monetary system. Then we started wanting more and more territory and money. If only things could go back to the way they were..

Most of us here were born into capitalism.. but imagine coming moving away from a country that wasn't capitalist to one that is. I realize that some of these countries are in bad shape, but I still think the adjustment to the capitalist world would be so hard, and very depressing at times.

BuyOurEverything
17th November 2005, 22:29
Maybe I'm just ignorant but I didn't know Emile Durkheim did anything outside of the women's movement. could you point me in direction of any of her writing?

You must be thinking of sombody else.

Emile Durkheim (http://www.emile-durkheim.com/)

encephalon
18th November 2005, 00:16
capitalism causes alienation. alienation causes depression. Case solved.

which doctor
18th November 2005, 00:55
Depression is a tool used by capitalism to get us down. Doctors who diagnose depression are giving people an artificial excuse to why they are so sad. The real reason they feel like shit is because capitalism and how it degrades society and the environment. Depression would not exist in a truly communistic society.

diamond_rabbit
18th November 2005, 01:33
Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 10:26 PM
A study recently done indicates that immigrants coming over from less industrialized nations to highly industrialized nations (ie: the US) are at least six times more likely to have some sort of mental illness than an immigrant from an industrialized nation. This mental illness can be anything from severe depression to schitzophrenia, to bipolar disorder.
I believe this is due to capitalism. Once they get here, they are subjected to intense advertizing that they are not used to. They are taught to want more and more material goods than ever before, and when this is not possible, depression hits.
Any thoughts?
It is totally logical that the conditions created by capitalism cause/contribute to many people's problems in living and emotional difficulties. not only capitalism, but other oppressive systems as well. there are many, many oppressive conditions that are endured by immigrants in the US/Canada/etc. that would lead to emotional turmoil, not to mention the traumas people bring with them from their past.

i just want to point out that the metaphor of 'mental illness' is used to locate these problems within individuals. 'schizophrenia', 'bipolar disorder', 'major depressive disorder' are all labels that describe criteria completely separate from the individual's life history and context. labelling people as 'mentally ill' takes the emphasis away from ills of society, which is very useful for maintaining the status quo. psychiatry is a institution designed first and foremost to support state interests. those who revolt, do not function well or who are obviously suffering under capitalism are those who are labelled as 'ill'. the solution? too often, drugs, electroshock, loss of choice and freedom, further disenfranchisement. not suprisingly, women, racialized people, and poor people are most likely to be labelled with a 'mental illness'--would it not be more useful to do away with this concept, and instead look at each individual in the context of their life histories? and in the context of a fucked up society?

schizophrenia--there is nothing inherently problematic about hearing voices, seeing things or experiencing reality in a different way from others around you. not all cultures feel that alternate experiences of reality are a problem. the problem occurs when a) every one around you is freaking out because your experiences or behaviour are too weird, and so you come to believe there is something wrong with you or b) the reality you are experiencing is terrifying to you. i believe that when people are experiencing terrifying realities, this is based on some history of trauma, whether that be childhood abuse or the general abuse endured as a result of living in a violent and abusive society. instead of trying to suppress natural reactions to trauma by drugging, i believe it is important for individuals to find ways of coping with or processing their traumas, to better understand and contain their experiences. drugs too often impede people's ability to feel and process experiences in a healing way.

depression--of course, it is very natural for people to feel depressed under difficult circumstances or when they are carrying within them a strong internal critic that developed as a result of oppressive conditions around them. people who are not valued by a capitalist system receive many messages on a daily basis of their worthlessness.

bipolar--when we go through periods of depression, it is totally natural for our bodies and psyches to react in an opposite way as we come out of it. some people experience this in more intense ways than others.

there is nothing 'ill' or 'sick' about having negative emotional reactions to oppressive conditions.

Zingu
18th November 2005, 03:02
Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 18 2005, 01:00 AM
Depression is a tool used by capitalism to get us down. Doctors who diagnose depression are giving people an artificial excuse to why they are so sad. The real reason they feel like shit is because capitalism and how it degrades society and the environment. Depression would not exist in a truly communistic society.
I wouldn't be so fast to say that; I'm genetically predisposed to have Bipolar Disorder, that can be "triggered" so to speak by any special event. Bipolar Disorder is impossible to control, you just get depressed and have mood swings for no reason at all.


bipolar--when we go through periods of depression, it is totally natural for our bodies and psyches to react in an opposite way as we come out of it. some people experience this in more intense ways than others.

Its not that simple, Bipolar depression is alot different from unipolar depression, we basically go through a game of snakes and ladders you cannot win.

You can experience hypomania, which is a feeling of extreme euphoria and nirvana (Which I experinced for 2 days straight), followed by a massive crash into suicidal depression and psychotic episodes of halluncinations, racing thoughts and voices in my head.

Trust me, its not that mellow, I was on the verge of commiting suicide several times.

Bipolar people, like me, we have a chemical imbalance in our brain which causes our mental illness, its not something that society does with us.

diamond_rabbit
18th November 2005, 05:12
Originally posted by Zingu+Nov 17 2005, 07:07 PM--> (Zingu @ Nov 17 2005, 07:07 PM)
Fist of [email protected] 18 2005, 01:00 AM
Depression is a tool used by capitalism to get us down. Doctors who diagnose depression are giving people an artificial excuse to why they are so sad. The real reason they feel like shit is because capitalism and how it degrades society and the environment. Depression would not exist in a truly communistic society.
I wouldn't be so fast to say that; I'm genetically predisposed to have Bipolar Disorder, that can be "triggered" so to speak by any special event. Bipolar Disorder is impossible to control, you just get depressed and have mood swings for no reason at all.


bipolar--when we go through periods of depression, it is totally natural for our bodies and psyches to react in an opposite way as we come out of it. some people experience this in more intense ways than others.

Its not that simple, Bipolar depression is alot different from unipolar depression, we basically go through a game of snakes and ladders you cannot win.

You can experience hypomania, which is a feeling of extreme euphoria and nirvana (Which I experinced for 2 days straight), followed by a massive crash into suicidal depression and psychotic episodes of halluncinations, racing thoughts and voices in my head.

Trust me, its not that mellow, I was on the verge of commiting suicide several times.

Bipolar people, like me, we have a chemical imbalance in our brain which causes our mental illness, its not something that society does with us.[/b]
well, there are different etiological theories of "manic", "hypomanic", and "depressive" episodes, or bipolar type "mood disorders". i certainly don't want to discount your personal experience in anyway, but i am coming from a very different perspective in conceptualizing people's problems in living and emotional crises. this is not to discount the pain and suffering that people experience. i know that is very real.

i agree that the equation is not so simple as capitalism = depression. people living under similar oppressive conditions react in very different ways. however, i do think that our emotional responses and ways of coping with stressful events are formed throughout our development. sometimes these responses can be become painful and feel out of control. but i do think that it is possible for people to develop emotional processing skills and ways of coping that work for them in the context of their lives, although this involves a lot of self-reflection and hard work.

i seriously question etiological theories of 'mental illness' that point to genetic predisposition and chemical imbalances. the research providing evidence for these theories is highly questionable. it makes sense that people who grow up in the same families or environments would develop similar emotional processing skills, since these are learned. we also know that the chemistry in our brains and bodies change under different conditions. when something happens that makes us sad, our chemistry changes. when something happens that makes us excited, our chemistry changes. also, we do not know if somebody has a chemical imbalance when they are diagnosed with a 'mental illness'--there is no medical test to assess this--but we do know that the drugs psychiatrists give to people to correct these chemical imbalances can cause permanent brain damage. in other words, many psychiatric drugs cause permanent chemical imbalances in the brain. this really messes up neurological studies done to gather evidence for biological theories of 'mental illness', since people who are diagnosed are put on drugs and the brain chemistry is analyzed after they are dead. obviously their brains have been damaged by the drugs.

i wouldn't have such a problem with the 'mental illness' metaphor if I hadn't witnessed the oppression caused by psychiatric conceptualizations of people's emotional and behavioural difficulties. but the fact is that the medical model applied to people's problems in living makes it far to easy to dismiss or ignore people histories of hurt and trauma caused by all sorts of factors (conditions caused by captalism included). the systemic response now is to put people on drugs, because it is easy and 'cost efficient'---although there is growing public concern about this, given that studies on anti-depressants are showing that some people experience increased suicidality or aggressiveness when they go on these drugs. and other kinds of psychiatric drugs, like neuroleptics, can cause permanent disability among other difficulties. conceptualizing emtional crises and problems in living as 'mental illness' individualizes and pathologizes people's responses to internal dynamics and dynamics in the world around them---which in my view are not actually discrete from one another. it is not hard to see how the psychiatric response works in favour of oppressive systems in society, by individualizing people's problems. this conceptualization also encourages a disconnect between events and conditions shaping our lives and our emotional responses. the way our psyches work is very complex, so i am not suggesting that we can clearly see the connection between conditions and responses, but exploring this is critical for many people to find some peace in themselves.


also, when people are seen as inherently out of control emotionally, as 'mentally ill' due to some organic disease, where does that leave them for hope of healing? i have heard so often from psychiatric survivors that what they needed when they were in crisis was supportive places where they could experience, process, and reflect on their scary out of control emotions in a supportive environment, with caring people to witness their process. i have people in my life who have been diagnosed with various kinds of 'mental illness'.... some of these people have found much needed support and worked through some of their past histories and have made really significant changes in their lives and ways of coping and being in the world.

ChemicalRock
20th November 2005, 16:15
It's really very sad. These immigrents are brainwashed into thinking that capitalist america is a land of happiness and oppurtunity, but when they get there they discover it's a land of depression and wage slavery. :( It should be clear to anyone that most mental problems are, if not brought on by a capitalist society, are certianly made worse by capitalism.

GiveITall
21st November 2005, 03:05
well said, diamond rabbit.

I agree that it is too simplistic to say that capitalism causes depression but there are certain characteristics of liberal capitalist society that cause distress and anxiety in people's lives.

There is a mentality embedded in capitalist society that in order to be worth something an individual must have a career and assets. A person who has no job and no possessions in a capitalist society is often deemed worthless by mainstream society. Such people will eventually believe that it is their own individual failure that has led to their socio-economic status and hence will become distressed, isolated and depressed.

A lot of people don't realise that unemployment and homelessness are necessary in capitalist society and will often blame individuals for their poor socio-economic status rather than society. This is problematic because not only do people of low socio-economic status become depressed because they believe that they are worthless they are not compelled to actively change society because they do not recognise that society is at fault for their depression.

poster_child
22nd November 2005, 06:15
A person who has no job and no possessions in a capitalist society is often deemed worthless by mainstream society

I agree! This is not the case at all! We walk over these people every day, and each person has something to offer the world. So many important things cannot be measured by possessions and money! For example: someone's character, talent, compassion, parenting, knowledge, etc, etc! Cappies determine them to be "worthless", "lazy", etc, but these people are doing something good for society! They are not participating in capitalism!

It's sad when people try and live up to these unrealistic standards, and suffer because of it!

drain.you
22nd November 2005, 11:22
Maybe I'm just ignorant but I didn't know Emile Durkheim did anything outside of the women's movement. could you point me in direction of any of her writing?
Crap, totally made a fool of myself, I wasn't thinking of Emile Durkheim when I made that post.
Durkheim is the functionalist, learned about him in sociology. When I made that comment I was in fact thinking of Emmeline Pankhurst lmao. In my defence, it was early in the morning when I made that post :P