You Say You Want A Revolution?

[Columbia]

I don't get it?!?

Workers are many; cappies are few.

Yet Europe has become more conserviative during my lifetime; the United States has increased social programs; there are more and more homeless every year in the streets of Los Angeles; the world continues to have wars; women and children are exploited.

The political left sits on its ass and doesn't challenge Bush. It's evident to everyone but himself that he simply wanted war rather than wait for s U.N. report on weapons.

America is a playground for the rich at everyone else's expense.

Demonstrations?

How about massive mobilization and destruction of the properties of the federal government and corporate America?

Where is it?

I've come to the conclusion, and I don't mean this to simply be annoying, that you commies don't have the guts for a fight.

Pick a city and plant a flag and start defending the area.

Everyone keeps writing here how the U.S. will collapse in 5 to 10 years.

Why? I bet Clinton becomes president (I'll probably join her campaign) and America will move to the reasonable center it was at when Bill was president, and there will go all the gas from your movement for 8 years.

Condi an't gonna beat her; we're becoming, and will become even more, sick of the Republican party. You'll see, it will be bad.

Am I really supposed to take you all seriuosly?

[bunk]

were all waiting for someone else to start the revolution, then we'll join in. :)

[black magick hustla]

i am going to strap a bomb around my waist maybe i will change something (like muslim terrorists) :lol:

[FleasTheLemur]

This smells like bait, BUT...


One) The left is not united as you think. Out of a nation of nearly 300,000,000 million, how can proclaim to be left of the Democratic Party? Even those that ARE left of the Democratic party, who is willing to pick up a gun and start shooting at people?

The matter of the fact is the left is divided between tofu eating peaceniks (a large majority), those willing to stand-up to the slight-of-hand oppressors (but only democratically), those who want to fight the powers that be though violent means (but doesn't know how) and finally those can fight the capitalists and their lap-dogs (but they're so small in number, it would be suicide.)

Two) Of course, the battle isn't about the 'left' and the 'right'. It's more along the lines of those that work hard and those that hardly work; the worker and the capitalist. Those terms are more along traditional marxist lines, but as we move onward it has become divided a little more into with a manigerial class and the professional class.

The manigerial class is and continues to grow in the United States as traditional factory jobs move out of the country. The problem with Marx and most Marxists before the 70s is that they did not see this coming. As it continues to grow, are manigerial class is only going to continue to grow larger. This class of people is being exploited, but they haven't exactly realized it quite yet. They see a nice car out front, they live in a nice house... but what they don't realize yet is that they make payments on the car that's worth more than the sticker price and their house is morgaged. Those credit cards extend purchasing power, but they're only going to have to pay more in the long run. The woman may be free to work now, but both parents are working now, 40+ hours of week.

Which leads back to my term, the slight-of-hand oppression. The exploitation has become more ellaberate; while the magician is pulling a quarter out of your ear, he's taking 500 bucks out of your wallet. The sad part is, the manigerial class doesn't know this yet and we Marxists are still focused on the workers which works all fine for countries like Argentina, but not so much for countries like the UK.

In short, Marxism in western countries needs to update its PR. Until that time, our numbers will continue to be small.

Three) With our numbers so small and the proper classes not educated, we're no in the possision to rebel. We're in a possision to talk to said classes, but no in any to 'place a flag in a city and set up defenses.' If we did something along the lines of the Weather Underground, we'll be labeled as 'terrorists' and probably be sent to graves and Marx will roll in his.

Four) You also have to realize that revolution is pricey from an economic stand-point. Rocks is free and beer is cheap, but those reactionaries have guns and bombs. We're going to need a least a few good guns first.. then raids military bases.. etc, etc.

Five) You'll have a sizible number of workers/manigerials that will defend the reactionaries and capitalists to the death primarily because of religious reasons. As long as certain Marxists take an aggressively anti-theological stand-point, expect the workers/maigerials to react strongly.

Let's review!

Our numbers in the West are small. Our numbers in the West will continue to be small if don't update our image slightly and tap into the potential of the manigerial class (which, in all honesty, still has more money than the traditional working class, which could be used to buy firearms).

Dee End.

[Zingu]

Its something we Communists call "class consciousness".


Feudalism existed for hundreds of years with the burgeoisie under its whip and chain till the burgeoisie revolted and overthrew their oppressors alongside the peasents.

Capitalism was a rational system at the first dawn of the new system; but as time goes on, it has become a more less and less rational system due to its own internal contradictions and the ever deepening class antagonism as more and more people are divided into two camps; the burgeoisie and the proletariat.


People can be blinded by reactionary values and false beliefs, like ideology and religon. But when this false world is ripped away from them for whatever reason; that is when they become class conscious.

We're out there, we're agitating for revolutionary change, its our purpose to wake up a sleeping dragon.

"We" as in the current leftist movement won't be doing the revolting; but the working class itself will be, or it is not a revolution.

Our struggle is not an ideological one, its a material one, and it can only be possible when the working class holds the same material interests we advocate.

Social Democracy and welfare doesn't rid a world of class struggle, nor does it do away with the ever complicating dilemna's of capitalism.

[FleasTheLemur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 10:55 PM
Its something we Communists call "class consciousness".


Feudalism existed for hundreds of years with the burgeoisie under its whip and chain till the burgeoisie revolted and overthrew their oppressors alongside the peasents.

Capitalism was a rational system at the first dawn of the new system; but as time goes on, it has become a more less and less rational system due to its own internal contradictions and the ever deepening class antagonism as more and more people are divided into two camps; the burgeoisie and the proletariat.


People can be blinded by reactionary values and false beliefs, like ideology and religon. But when this false world is ripped away from them for whatever reason; that is when they become class conscious.

We're out there, we're agitating for revolutionary change, its our purpose to wake up a sleeping dragon.

"We" as in the current leftist movement won't be doing the revolting; but the working class itself will be, or it is not a revolution.

Our struggle is not an ideological one, its a material one, and it can only be possible when the working class holds the same material interests we advocate.

Social Democracy and welfare doesn't rid a world of class struggle, nor does it do away with the ever complicating dilemna's of capitalism.
Exactly.

[Fighter]

FleasTheLemur,

Your original comment, above, was one of the best explainations for what I have been thinking of.


Zingu,

One fault of yours you should consider is that traditional feudalism was dying long before the French Estate system was destroyed by the Revolution of 1789. Many factors from the Black Death to the rise of cities killed off the system, as serfs would no longer work the lands and peasants would not farm the fields, and the authority of the nobles to keep them there waned considerably.

But there is merit in many of your other observations.


Here's an overall problem for you to consider that you would have to admit well, perhaps you don't, but nearly the world has seen this) about communism v. capitalism:

While you all here are telling the world that there's never been a "socialist" society, or a truly commie one, there have been plenty who have claimed that they were so. These societies, including the current ones in Africa and Asia, have done nothing to end the class structure. Indeed, they have created as closed a class society as the feudal lords had.

When the Berlin Wall came down, and everyone in East Germany (the most "successful" of the post war, European socialist societies) saw that average "exploited" workers lived far better than the above average workers in East Berlin, AND that special privileges were given to the party elite and sports people, they were disguested. Of course, we cappies knew the truth anyway, despite our "corporate controlled press".

Also, along these same lines: I've been to the heart of Los Angeles, including the neighborhoods of Compton and Watts. Compared to middle class America, they're missing out on a lot. And they have police and safety issues. And a crummy education. But compared to those people "liberated" by communism, that you will argue to me is not communism, they're living real well.

Most of your problems stem from your inability to point to why people should give up being "exploited", when an "exploited life" beats a "liberated one" any day.

Re: Your comments that this was all bait. Hardly. I sincerely wish to discuss these issues with intelligent parties.

[kurt]

While you all here are telling the world that there's never been a "socialist" society, or a truly commie one, there have been plenty who have claimed that they were so. These societies, including the current ones in Africa and Asia, have done nothing to end the class structure. Indeed, they have created as closed a class society as the feudal lords had.

Yea, and I'll say it again. There has never been a communist society. The issue of socialism, however is a littly murky. Some claim that these countries were indeed socialist, others claim they were not. However, if these countries were indeed socialism, then socialism is something we don't want! By saying that these countries have done nothing to change the class structure, I'd agree with you. They've simply replaced one ruling class with another.

The issue really is, does it matter what they claim? Just because they said they were something, doesn't mean they were. It's what they did, and how they were organized that counts.


When the Berlin Wall came down, and everyone in East Germany (the most "successful" of the post war, European socialist societies) saw that average "exploited" workers lived far better than the above average workers in East Berlin, AND that special privileges were given to the party elite and sports people, they were disguested. Of course, we cappies knew the truth anyway, despite our "corporate controlled press".

This is simply due to the fact that capitalism was next on history's agenda for these countries. When these countries had their so-called "socialist" or "communist" revolutions, they were still in the feudal age! Of course they couldn't develop communism, they simply didn't have the class structure in place that would allow such a development. Material reality prevailed, regardless of lenin's "good intentions".

[encephalon]

America won't fall from grace in 5 to 10 years. Give it fifty to a hundred. History is measured in centuries.

As for barricading a city and setting up a red flag: why on earth would we do that?!? That's akin to prisoners rioting and taking control of the prison. Under current historical conditions, such isolated activity is doomed to fail. It's like pitting a five year old against a twenty year old in a boxing match. One will obviously win--that is, until the five year old is 30 and the 20 year old is 55.

Revolution must be a mass movement, not an isolated riot.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

When the Berlin Wall came down, and everyone in East Germany (the most "successful" of the post war, European socialist societies) saw that average "exploited" workers lived far better than the above average workers in East Berlin, AND that special privileges were given to the party elite and sports people, they were disguested. Of course, we cappies knew the truth anyway, despite our "corporate controlled press".

How could the GDR be the "most sucessful" socialist country when it was never socialist?

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 09:39 PM
Re: Your comments that this was all bait. Hardly. I sincerely wish to discuss these issues with intelligent parties.
What? How can you speak for Columbia, who laid out the bait by starting this thread....unless you're the same person?